We recently purchased 80+ac of beautiful bluegrass farmland and want to build it into a horse farm. This means roads. I will have roughly 1.5m of roads over the place, when all is said and done, however, I must build about 1/3m of road for barn access before I can do anything. In order to free up $$$, I have to get my horses on our place. They are currently boarded, so I am in a fix. In order for any more significant $$$ to be spent, the road has to be put in to an old tobacco barn we will be refurbishing into a horse barn. But to have the $$$ to have the road built, I have to have the $$$ freed from the horses. One BIG Catch 22. I had a recent quote for road construction, and it is far out of my range at this point. Roughly $26.5K which DOES NOT include aggregate. That is the grading, culvert, and fabric installation along with pre and post aggregate packing. To be fair, the road is on a small hill, but he said he would just build right up the hill, along the slope. There are no trees etc. There is a place around the barn requiring grading to prevent water running into the barn. I can easily drive along the route I desire the road to take, but it is just along the winding edge of a field with a sideways 'cross grade'. Regardless... I can't afford to have it professionally completed. I don't have a problem paying for expertise, but I just don't have that kind of money at this point. I currently have a 100hp JD tractor with FEL. I also have a 6yd scraper which the tractor fills without issue. And a 12ft Killifer blade and box blade with hydraulic scarifiers. I've used both to do a lot of dirt moving around the farm, and I believe I can do quite a bit of the dirt work with these implements. But, cutting into the hill will be more of an issue. I've never used a dozer, but they seem to 'be the thing' to build roads. I have rented small excavators as well, and I think I could do the cut with the excavator. I have some CTL experience, but would in no way be more than a novice at either. I am fairly good with using heavy machinery (growing up on a farm) so I'm comfortable learning and working them. The cut would be about 3ft high, moving dirt from high side to low side. I want 11ft finished gravel so I was thinking I would need to build around a 13ft wide base not including high side ditches. My question to you is what would you recommend for the excavation? I can strip the topsoil with my scraper, I believe. But I'm don't think I would be able to make the cut well. Would you recommend renting a dozer or excavator or something else? Any recommendations for anything else 'road building related' is also appreciated. I've also thought about asking about 'hiring' the road builder as a consultant. Paying him a rate for his direction but doing the work myself. I would really like this, as I really like him, I just can't afford his company. How do you think an Excavation contractor would feel about being asked this question?
Yair . . . Hello Dadnatron and welcome to the Forum. It's hard to make constructive comment without seeing the job, but crikey. a 100Hp tractor with a loader, a six yard scraper and a box blade with rippers? I would think you are pretty well set to build a road . . . provided it is reasonable digging of course. I always try to make the road base on cut rather than trying to consolidate fill. You don't mention how steep the cross fall is but a three foot cut on the top side indicates it is not too extreme. To work on the cross fall with the scraper you will need to construct a rough bench with the loader by pushing/digging dirt down hill across the road and then a couple of dozing passes along the road to get the scraper laying back into the hill. This is standard practice and of course is normally done with a dozer but of your case it's run what you brung. It is always good to post pictures when the site lets you and I'm sure other folks will comment. All the best with it. Cheers.
That sounds ridiculously expensive and then gravel on top of that. I think that contractor is playing you for a fool. If you have a disc, work the area and it will make it a lot easier to do. Use the box blade for final grading.
Agree Scrub . Sounds like everything you would need on a small road project . I did spot this Massey Ferguson 3 point single shank ripper in Bowling Green Kentucky if the ground is tough . http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/8807841/massey-ferguson-24
I have a ripper and a 3 bottom plow if needed to loosen up soil. Since I believe I am going to use fabric, I was speaking with the representative of US Fabric out of Cincinnati. He said that, when using their 315# fabric, their recommendation is to 'stay high and dry' ie, doing as little dirt disturbance after removing vegetation, as possible. Then laying the fabric and adding between 6-8" of compactable aggregate over the top. Then smooth up the edge with topsoil (I suspect). This would significantly decrease my expected excavation along a few big parts of it that are much more flat. There is about 150-200yds that will be along a hillside. I haven't shot the grad along the hill, but it isn't steep. I can comfortably drive on the grade without any unease. Dave, I agree... the cost was far more than double of what I expected it to be. There might be much more to it that is in the quote
Thanks, I do have a couple questions on which I've yet to find information. 1. When 'packing and compacting', if I am to rent a compactor, what sort would work best for my purposes? - As I see it, I have need for compacting fill/lifts in a couple low spots as well as compacting the outside edge in order to keep from having everything on 'cut'. I certainly understand the benefits of putting everything on 'cut' however, there will be areas where fill will be necessary to prevent a short, but much more steep, area of the road. (I still believe this is below 14% grade, but I'd like to even it out.) I think this would be best served with a sheep's foot either towed or vibratory. However, how do you compact the outer edge of any fill along the 'waste' which has been pushed off the edge? Is it purely a vertical compaction? And, given that a sheep's foot drum will leave the divots from compaction, I believe that for finish compaction, I would need a second 'smooth' drum vibratory compactor. Can I simply get a smooth drum compactor and compact in 'thinner' lifts? And finally, I suspect that I would need a single drum/2 tires compactor... but what size would be the most useful in my situation? 2. Do I need to 'compact the cut'? 3. And finally, how do I know when I've compacted 'enough/optimally'? Is there a 'poor man's' Proctor test? I tend to be a guy who leans towards over-doing it, so I could see myself running over this "just one more time."
Is there any reason you must use the fabric? When I was doing dirt work, the only time I ever considered fabric under-layment was to get across swampy ground. The fabric is a huge cost and rarely necessary. It works great but it is cost prohibitive except in certain situations. The cost for the drive sounds excessively high unless there is a lot of clearing of stumps and trees that is required. I suggest getting more bids from some other firms.
I have asked this question on other forums and will ask it again . How can people spend the money on the land , knowing what needs to be done machinerywise and suddenly no $$$$ ? I just do not get it . All of a sudden we are looking at a 300$ lawnmower and an 8n Ford to build a 5 mile road and mow 5 acres ?
I agree, except there seems to be plenty of equipment in place already, maybe way more equipment than needed? Also agree about the fabric, it's a great tool and I'd really like to try it sometime to see if it really works like promised, but gravel is so cheap that it hasn't made sense yet. Also, if not too late, reconsider converting the existing building. If your tobacco sheds are like ours they are more reusable than most old buildings, but still, a horse barn built to "horse standards" is a huge amount of finishing work. Put that work into a new building that's straight and made for it. Don't try to cram all that expensive new work into a building that's not made for it.
The land will always be there. If it takes me a few more years to do what I want... I will still get it done.
I had someone come take a look at the barn, and they thought it was in great shape. Needs some things, no doubt, but it will do for the time being. I like the old thing. Fix a little of the roof, reside it, and put in some stalls and it will be good. We will be building a 'new' old tobacco barn/horse barn on another part of the property, but that will be in a year or two. Our home and other buildings will come in time. Concerning the fabric. Our soil is clay and although I think that I could do it without, I'd rather build the road solid and not worry about losing the aggregate into soft spots should they develop. It certainly could be overkill. But I'd rather spend a little more now and insure that when I'm 70, I'm not going to be cussing myself because I didn't do what I could do to build it strong.
No matter how well you build it, there's going to be some maintenance in the future, mostly grading. Minor low spots will get filled when you grade. Major ones will require more aggregate. I've known some people to put a layer of cheap large river rock over clay areas that don't dry out enough just to stabilize it, then after driving on it a while, put a layer of gravel on top. The fabric may be good to have, but dollar for dollar the money might be better spent elsewhere.
I recognize there will be maintenance. I'm working to minimize it though. I have more money now, than I will likely have physical ability later. I'm trying to leverage them both. But your point is well taken. There are certainly LOTS of places money can be spent at this point.
It will vary of course with soil and climate but I reckon the most effective and least cost option for access roads is to do the least amount of work required to give easy access for the owners vehicles, establish wheel tracks across the Prairie and improve it up from there. Geo-fabric on a farm track? . . . truly? Cheers.
100 hp tractor and the FEL bucket filled to the limit makes a good rolling compactor especially if there is a little moisture content, I've packed a lot of roadbed with my backhoe, fill the bucket and drive back and forth, six inch lifts and you will have it compacted firm in no time at all.
I've never worried much about compaction. I have gravity, rain, and traffic to compact. Maybe it's about soil type. I think about drainage. I seldom imagine compaction to be a big factor. Time brings compaction. A sidehill road needs a ditch on the uphill side. Ideally the weight of vehicles needs to be on cut soil, not fill soil. The makeup of road needs to be impervious on top, drainage below. The first highways in this country were: get to a place above natural water table. Install 10" of crushed stone. The "Macadam" stone specified 1 x 1 x 2" In the day they were dealing with horse and wagon traffic. Huge weight was not a factor. Iron wagon tires, and horse shoes provided all the compaction needed. The nicest gravel roads I have seen were built for John David Rockefeller Jr. I'm sure he was quoting from an engineer. His contracts called for drainage as needed. His roadbeds were dry minutes after rain. Then, a layer of 6" stone 12" deep was laid. This was topped with 2" stone 2" above the 6", and ultimately, 3/8" stone formed the surface. Mr. Rockefeller did not mention compaction. The obsession I perceive from his specifications is dryness. I've owned a parcel for some time plagued with water. Side hill, it should drain effortlessly. The lesson I have learned about roads is "high, and dry". Perennial mud holes become hard roads by draining them, and raising them well above water table. For me, this usually means digging ditches both sides, placing this poor road soil in the middle, elevating the road. Then 12-18" of gravel well crowned forms the road. Willie
If you do compact it with a sheeps foot packer, there shouldn't be any divots if it's fully compacted.
You don't have fences? KY isn't that cold, couldn't you let the horses run around on the 80 acres. and open the barn door a little, if the weather gets bad? Just wondering,
Yeah ok . 1/3 mile of road to the out buildings / barn might take 400 tons of stone " 20 tri axil " loads to get started around 5" deep & 10 foot wide . Stone cost in my area would be rite at $ 7000.00 give or take . Would forget about the geo cloth on this job . Strip the 2 0r 3 inches of top dirt you have with the tractor & implements then bring on the stone trucks . The geo cloth works great in places and we use it on some jobs and like it . It wont work on a road job where the stone is not thick enough to keep the cloth from crowning in the center of the road due to heavy traffic and you just end up catching it with the grader blade on the tractor . https://www.usfabricsinc.com/products/us-315 It's a complete waste of money on this job . The road can also lay a little sidewise along the hills , it don't have to be perfectly level . Keep it simple and do it in stages over several years .
TD beat me too it - fabric is a waste of money on this job for the reasons stated. Fabric, woven and non-woven has it's place as does geo-grid. I've used them all for soil stabilization. Basically the way geo fabric and grid works is it needs enough weight on top of it to displace or bridge over the soft material underneath. This weight also needs to be spread out evenly. So the crappier the soil is underneath the fabric. the more rock or engineered fill you need on top to "even it out" so to speak in layman's terms. Two projects where we had to use geo-grid and rip-rap to get a stable base for a Storm Tech system and a parking lot. HeavyEquipmentForums Putting 4-6" of stone over fabric 12' wide on a drive and expecting the fabric to do anything will be a disappointment.
Absolutely CM , Well said ! For the fabric to work on a road bed the stone has to be thick enough to where it act's as ballast in the center to keep it from pushing up to the surface . We use it allot behind gabion basket & paver walls to keep dirt / backfill from filtering through . Works good on field tile repairs as well . Have several customers that still have old school clay tile draining a field . What happens over time is the gap between the tile will spread open and a sink hole develops . To speed up the process we dig down to the top of the tile without disturbing it . Cut a 4' X 4' square of cloth to lay over the area and backfill . Works good for livestock as well . Had a customer with complaint area in front of the horse barn was muddy all the time . She has 6 of these four legged erosion creating beasts Over dug the 50' X 50' area 15" deep , lay down cloth and called the stone trucks to fill it with # 53's . It made the horses happy .
Very good point Mate ! The wheel tracks ? That's how a road was first established , some wheel tracks though the pasture / paddock to each building or area tended daily . Wagon master / driver took the best route the land offered keeping in mind soft ground & steep slopes . Sometimes it's better to travel a little further on good ground then take a short cut . Then some feller got the idea to drop a little stone in the ruts made by the tracks . Funny part is we still have my Grand Dads tail gate for spreading stone in the wheel tracks . Why waste money digging out the center of the farm road when it could be growing grass and spread the stone in the wheel tracks where it needs it ? It's not like rush hour traffic that needs a passing lane . Good post Scrub !
These are pics of the road path. The first pic is the overall course, connecting to the road below and traveling along the edge of the tillable field and grass along the pond. The other two are my attempt to show the grade hill. It isn't very much, but it isn't 'nothing' either. The squared off 'box' in blue, by the barn indicates an area which will require quite a bit of dirt removal for grading purposes. I haven't shot the grade, But I suspect the corner marked with an 'X' is approximately 6-8' higher than the barn corner. It funnels any and all water directly towards the barn. The following post will show the road in a slightly different way.
The rough course of the planned road. The two red lines along crossing the path indicate a rough estimate of the 'steepest' point in which I plan on building up the road approximately 3' through this area in order to alleviate a 'perceived' dip and steeper ascent. This would allow for a gradual and relatively consistent grade throughout most of the course of the road. Otherwise, that one spot has a pointedly higher grade, than the rest of the road.
Could you make some kind of deal with your neighbor for shared use of his driveway? Maybe you take care of the maintenance or some other arrangement. I can't see it all but it looks like they are just accessing bins and a machine shed.
I thought about it, but I think that when all is said and done, I'd rather have access via my own road. They have already allowed us to use the road for temporary access, and his wife is worried we are going to tear it up, driving on it when it rains. I want good neighbors... and I don't want to create strife with her.
You are on the right track. Keep the neighbors happy.....
Ever since I was a child, I had always had a fascination with road roller compactors when my town was becoming urbanized. I know they work well on ground soil, but do they really work for cement roads?
When stockpiling topsoil and dirt... Any tips? I have a 6yd scraper, so I should be able to remove it for future use. My 'thought' is that I just scrape it and take it to a dump sight where I create a mound that I driver over and over again, building it higher and higher. But I really don't know and it seems like such an obvious thing... that apparently, no one puts any information out about the details and logistics of doing it. My other concern is determining when I am no longer in topsoil and into the clay. I understand 'color change' etc. But is that about the only way to know when I've moved from topsoil to subsoil? I have Maury soils throughout my place. But I know, I've gotten into clay on at least one part of the place below about 3ft. With the cut, should I just go until level and ignore that it might still be in topsoil? What about half the road (downhill side) being on topsoil and the top side of the cut getting into clay? does that cause any issues with road stability long term? I suspect that a large portion of the road will be part topsoil and part clay, if I make a straight cut into the shallow slopes. Is there any issue using clay 'fill' to fill in dips in the road without first removing topsoil completely? In one area, I need to build up the road about 1-2' in order to smooth out the grade. And in order to get down to clay, I might have to remove 1-2ft of topsoil making the 'dip' even deeper. I want to do what will make for the best road long term, but don't want to chase small % improvement that won't really make a difference in the road stability and usability.
Back when I did dirt work, I would normally take off 3"-6" at the most. Peel everything back with a 6 way dozer blade and cast to the sides. Fill in the cut with local gravels (bank run - always the cheapest solution) and about 2"-4" above original grade. I would then peel the topsoil back to the edges of the fill and blade to sloped grade to provide and easy to maintain slope that still allowed water to flow off well. Normally, any new drive will pump for a while until the gravel is packed and there is a good dry out of the soils. After my customers had finished their construction work on new residences, the drive would be topcoated with limestone or chert rock. These gravels were much more expensive but only needed as a top coat to provide the best and most durable surface that would stay locked in place and wash away water without much penetration. Unless you are building a road across a swamp, the fabric idea is the biggest waste of money that you will ever spend on a driveway. Clay is only a problem when wet or disturbed, otherwise it is a firm base suitable for any driveway. Spend more on fill gravel, let the dry season firm up the road, regrade and then topcoat with premium materials. Also, if you want to spend a lot, use nothing but limestone and start with a lift of #6, then #4, then #2 and then 33c or dense grade. In your clay soil, that which seems to concern you, this method would set up a road suitable for interstate traffic.
Yair . . . Gotcha td25c . . . and I reckon treemuncher's comments pretty much say it all. Cheers.
Is there not an option to route the road on the other side of the tillable field? Impossible to tell from photos, of course, but if it was a little flatter and higher there it could be much easier to maintain down the track.....no pun intended!
Great advice so far. As to the compactor. You have the perfect machine. Tractor and scraper with 6 yards of dirt will compact as good as anything. Them tires will find the soft spots and push them down. Run the whole thing down, regrade and pack it again. Repeat until the soft spots disappear. The only time you'll need any of those fancy materials is if you have a "soft spot" that won't come out of it. Deal with them if or when they show up. You seem to have a good handle on what is needed for drainage and that will make or break your road. Now go burn some diesel!!!
WWII brought the end of my family being farmers. My father was a farmer at heart. His obsession with stewardship predated the concept of environmentalism. We live next to 200,000 acres of Green Mountain National Forest. There were no gates, or fences in my youth. If I had been caught on forest roads with a vehicle when the roads were wet, consequences would be dire! He collected rock from his garden, the forest, or wherever he could to fill ruts. Drainage became obsession. He was quick to teach that allowing your tires into a mud hole, pothole, or rut was encouraging erosion. Roads were 1-1/2 vehicle wide. Tires always straddled the ruts. Keep your wheels high, and dry. This almost always meant two wheels in the center of the road. These days I am less poor than then, I can occasionally splurge on rock for roads. Nearby, I can get screened stone delivered seasonally as they have surpluses. Year round I can buy Calcium Carbonate crushed. It comes in 1-3/4" drainage stone, or 5"-. With trucking factored it's twice the price. One way or the other, standing water is replaced with stone. It's seldom a one time thing. A Friday after work run to the quarry is hand shoveled into the wet spots. Roads are continuously improved. That isn't to say a new road doesn't require moving of earth. I'm no engineer, but I do grasp the concept of physics as it applies to road construction. Water must be managed. Gravity too is very important. Side hill roads must not get too steep, but they need to keep roadbed on cut soil. Fill soil is for shoulders. I favor ditch on the uphill side, with crown, others say tilt the whole road. Either way the cut above the road must not be steep enough to collapse onto the road. Willie
It sounds like I might be overthinking this road build. I tend to do that at times. My plan, after your information, is to remove the topsoil for storage along the area of the cut. Make the cut and ditch 'level' from the hillside, with weight bearing road on cut only. Pack it with a filled bucket, tractor, and filled scraper in lifts of about 6" on the 'dip' area (which will be the only fill area which is driven upon), culverts, crown it, and rock it. After your counsel, I will forgo the fabric in lieu of more rock as long as nothing appears soft, and if so, I will fabric only that specific area. Should be a nice Saturday afternoon's work...........
Factoring the inevitable voices telling you to do other tasks, it might run into two Saturday afternoons.
I have the road all laid out with stakes and elevations. I will be using my 6yd scraper to remove as much topsoil as possible for stockpiling. (in the cut) I've used the dirt pan before, using it on unworked ground. But now I have a disc. Given the photos above, do you think it would be easier to fill if the soil is 'virgin' or 'disced' ? I'd like to minimize switching implements as much as possible, but I want to make everything work as well as possible, too. Would running a disc up and down the road, several times make it any easier to load? I've never tried it, and don't want to hamstring myself by 'trying it' without having a good idea of the likely outcome.
What kind of disk do you have? A small farm disk is usually of little use on virgin land. A heavy farm disk may not be too bad, a double offset would probably work and a Rome would really cut.
Construction crews use very heavy discs to loosen the soil for easier working and loading. No different than digging a hole in virgin ground compared to digging a hole in tilled garden soil. The only thing is disc down to the level and then use your pan or box blade to cut the finish level. If you go too deep you'll just have to drive on it to pack it really well before adding gravel.
It is a relatively small, 8' farm disc. It isn't very heavy, going about 3-4" into virgin soil. I have ripper shanks on a box blade that would go about 6-8". Perhaps the box blade shanks would be worth it.
A small disk like that will serve to compact more than loosen soil. (I know it sounds wrong but if the soil is the slightest damp, after several trips you will begin to make a hard-pan just a few inches down.) I would be inclined to try the box blade. Drop the shanks as low as you can get them. Tighten the centerlink on your tractor as much as possible to pitch the cutting edge of the blade high. Pitching the blade should allow you to get more depth with the shanks. If you box blade if a farm store brand be careful and go sloooooow. The tractor you have will bend your blade into a pretzel if you hook something solid underground. As a thought.... Implement dealers sometimes rent subsoilers, rippers or what ever you call them in your neck of the woods. The rent is usually pretty cheap. A 5 shank chisel plow might workout really well also. Check with your neighbor who has the grain bins. I'll bet he has one or both tools and may help you do the job.
Hmmm... I have a single shank ripper. I might run that a time or two. I have a heavy Gannon 4x2 Box blade. I've broken several shanks... but the box hasn't felt it at all. My biggest issue is actually finding shanks that are the quality of the box. Everything I find has been 'too cheaply made' to have the strength of the blade. I hook a big root, and next thing I know, I'm down 2 blades. Its the type with the notches in the front, but my box requires the notches to be about 5" apart. The main tube is about that big. So I have to notch the shanks myself. Hmmm... I wonder if that is causing the weakness as well. They break at the bottom of the tube, but that, by definition, is at the bottom of the notch I have to cut. I've just been using a cutoff wheel and grinder. They notch out easily enough. But... eBay is the only place I've found them thus far. I have a single shank ripper. That might be the ticket, although, I'd have to run up and down several times, thereby packing what I am ripping. Still, probably a lot looser than what it was before.
I think Gannon became Woods. Maybe they have shanks that would work better? A single ripper is better than your disk. Try it! The worst that will happen is an unsatisfactory result.
See how the disc does or use the rippers followed by the disc. Experiment a little and you'll see what works the best.
Planedriver made a good point about working the ground when it's to wet . Unless customer says " money is no object " and they want it done now ! We try to schedule jobs where we have the " weather gauge " in our favor . Makes it more cost effective for everyone . Just something to consider ? Allot easier working up ground on a dirt project in May or June verses late February or March . You might hit the road a few passes with the shanks down on the box blade then mount the disc & work it up 5 or 6 rounds . I'm a firm believer in disking up the sod as it breaks it all apart & spreads nice on finish up or sell it to customers that need a little top dirt for the lawn . We have a 8' three point mount and 21' disk for dealing with it . HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums
td25c... along those lines of 'waiting for favorable weather'... When is it 'too wet' to work on building a road? I have this coming week off, and had planned on jumping into it with both feet. However, it has been storming for the last couple days with likelihood of continuing into the weekend and perhaps beginning of next week. I know the ground will be slick mud for at least a day or so afterwards, but given that I will be digging deeper... I'm not really sure how 'wet is too wet'. At what level would you 'not work' and at what level would it be 'reasonable although suboptimal'? What should I look for?
Yeah , Good question Dadnatron . My High Tech " dirt test " where it works up & compacts the best for building. Grab a handful of loose dirt off the cut and compress it in to a ball with your hands . Then drop it from about chest high . In optimum working conditions it should break apart in pieces when it hits the ground . If it don't break apart its to wet . If it wont compress it to a ball it's to dry .
Same storm system hit us last light & early morning hours . We got about 2" of rain & heavy winds with power outage . Spent most of the day clearing trees off the county roads . March coming in like a Lion I reckon
In our neck of the woods (KY & TN), don't expect things to dry out to optimal until June unless it is a dry year. You will likely end up working the ground while wet and that will cause it to pump a lot until it passes through a really good dry spell and firms up. Once it dries well and sets up firm, regrade and topcoat with dense grade limestone. Once the limestone gets a really good soaking and then dries to a concrete like surface, your road should be done to perfection.
Working on this road. I have to build up a spot which is a little low, to even out the overall grade. I have the topsoil stripped, but have a question on what I should use to build it back. I seem to have 3 distinct 'types/appearances' to the soil on my place. 1. Black clearly defined topsoil. This varies between 8" to 2' 2. A red subsoil immediately under this, which remains 'crumbly' but I know little wants to grow in it as I have pulled some of it to the top before and noted that drilled wheat grows poorly in those patchs. 3. A definite 'clay' which is sticky, dense, etc. Appears you could build a skyscraper on it and it wouldn't budge. My question is, do I need to strip my 'donor spot' down to this deepest layer of sticky dense clay #3 in order to use it to build the low area in the road up, or can I use the less dense clay which is closer to the surface #2? I am currently in #2 and while its relatively easy to work with, #3 is not. If I don't have to have #3 to build up the road, I'd rather not have to deal with the sticky density of it. It doesn't load or unload from my dirtpan worth a crap. The low spot in the road I need to build up, is scraped down to this dense #3 layer.
With the price of rock here in Kentucky the fabric is well worth the cost. I would rent a dozer with a tilt angle blade (the longer you rent it, the cheaper it is) Ask around and find a laid off equipment operator hire him and get the job done. Figure how much stone your going to need and contact the sales person at you area quarries and shop for the best price. Little phone time will save you a lot of cash
Working on this road. I have to build up a spot which is a little low, to even out the overall grade. I have the topsoil stripped, but have a question on what I should use to build it back. I seem to have 3 distinct 'types/appearances' to the soil on my place. 1. Black clearly defined topsoil. This varies between 8" to 2' 2. A red subsoil immediately under this, which remains 'crumbly' but I know little wants to grow in it as I have pulled some of it to the top before and noted that drilled wheat grows poorly in those patchs. 3. A definite 'clay' which is sticky, dense, etc. Appears you could build a skyscraper on it and it wouldn't budge. My question is, do I need to strip my 'donor spot' down to this deepest layer of sticky dense clay #3 in order to use it to build the low area in the road up, or can I use the less dense clay which is closer to the surface #2? I am currently in #2 and while its relatively easy to work with, #3 is not. If I don't have to have #3 to build up the road, I'd rather not have to deal with the sticky density of it. It doesn't load or unload from my dirtpan worth a crap. The low spot in the road I need to build up, is scraped down to this dense #3 layer.
You might try to find out what's below the clay layer, (not in the middle of your road, of course). Maybe there is a better source of fill material just below the clay. If you find better fill material, strategically plan a borrow pit somewhere on your property. You may also need good material for other roads, house pad, etc. Show us some pictures of your progress. Cool thread.
The issue is, I don't know what is 'better' fill. I know it needs to have no organic material. And this is my quandry. I don't believe either the clay just below my topsoil or the dense clay has anything in it. But, I don't know whether either is adequate for building up the road. Its interesting, but one of the hardest parts about this build, is confidence that I have stripped the topsoil adequately. My donor location is an angled hill about 9ft higher than the corner of my barn. All the runoff is directed towards the barn, and I had the option of putting in a berm for diversion or trying to take down the hill and use the dirt. Given my farm is beautiful, and quite honestly, there isn't a spot that I'd want to 'dig a hole for a donor site' I decided the best place for donation would be this hill which is problematic anyway. Overall size is about the size of football field, with one corner 9ft higher than the opposite corner. It drops in a dual slope from that corner. This is the amount of dirt I have to work with for my entire farm. At least I would like to keep it relegated to this location if I am able. I've stripped the topsoil (I think although there are still areas which seem darker than I'd like). It is stored at the end of the hill, and I should be able to push it back up covering the dig after it has been leveled. I have 4 large topsoil storage hills for this 1/4m road. Hopefully it will allow me to dress the sides and waste and get things growing again, upon completion. I just looked, and I guess I don't have any pics. I won't be back until the weekend. I'll get some then.
One thing about a borrow pit, it could be turned into a nice pond after your done. Assuming there is some ground water to fill it. Sump water can be handy on a farm as well.
The lowest level of my road lies along an area which was recently plowed. As I cleared away the topsoil, I noted that the soil, obviously, was very soft. I took the soil to below the plowline, which gives me about 10" deep 'trench' on the only relatively flat part of this road. I have 2 options at this point, I can fill compacted lifts for all or part of it, or I can fill it with aggregate. I know some of you have railed against the 'trench' and I would not have taken it down as much as I did, except for the softness of the soil in this stretch. Overall, its about 100' long portion. It runs adjacent to, but separate from, a drainage ditch which is only wet during big storms. I have all the fill I need, and was going to get a vibratory padded compactor for other spots in the road anyway. Would I be OK filling the trench with compacted clay fill then aggregate or would you recommend just aggregate to fill the entire depth. I want to insure I keep the road surface above grade, so this will entail a lot of gravel, should I go this route.
After reading more on compaction on this site, and I know that someone (td25c?) previously mentioned that a loaded scraper would be adequate for compaction, I'm wondering whether I can get enough compaction with the scraper. It is a conversion of a dolly scraper, now direct towbar mounted. Its capacity is 6cu yd. It has 4 tires along the back, distributing weight approximately 1/2 - 3/4 the width of the scraper itself. (obviously working against my needs for this situation). My tractor is around 8.5K and I can load about 1-1.5K in the bucket. I've ran over the cut with the scraper, and it shows no 'compaction' and my tractor only leaves superficial tire marks on the dirt. I tried compacting a little of the fill in the low spot to even out grade, and it compacted, but remained 'lumpy' from the roughness of the lift drop. It worried me, so I quite, thinking I might need the padded vibratory compactor after all. These are the best photos I have on my phone.
What pressures are your tyres at, if they are 18-20 psi you may get slightly more compaction if you raise them to say 28pounds per sq inch. Will trucks be bringing your rock/gravel in, could you do a section at the far end if it's dry enough, ask them to compact it ask best they can as they go in. Then add a layer in your low spot before getting more gravel trucked in...
[QUOTE="Dadnatron, post: 688365, member: 56691" I've ran over the cut with the scraper, and it shows no 'compaction' and my tractor only leaves superficial tire marks on the dirt. I tried compacting a little of the fill in the low spot to even out grade, and it compacted, but remained 'lumpy' from the roughness of the lift drop. It worried me, so I quite, thinking I might need the padded vibratory compactor after all. [/QUOTE] Yeah , that's a nice scraper rig Dadnatron . I like it ! With the tractor & scraper combination you have compaction is no problem . About the lumpy & rough look of the lift drop ...... When filling / building with a scraper you can also come back over it with an empty bowl to grade out any rough uneven areas just using the cutting edge . A scraper is one of the most versatile dirt moving tools . It's a haul truck / grader / compactor all in one unit .
I decided that the better part of valor would be to pony up and rent a dozer for a week. I am more time limited than money in some ways. Cat D6K did the trick. I'm sure its not as nice or 'clean' as could be done by someone with actual skill, especially given this was the first time I've been at the controls of a dozer. But I laid it out, followed the plan, and other than cutting the side slope, which had some pucker factor for me, everything went smoothly.
Nice job.