I am interested (maybe) in buying this 1985 Liebherr 731CL ( http://armyvehicles.dk/liebherrpr731cl.htm ) with 6800 hours. I have a 2003 Terex 860 backhoe and a 2004 50hp Kubota with Loader, Back Blade, Rake and 96" Finish Mower, so I do know how to run equipment somewhat, but not a bulldozer. I would like to have it to work on my 14 acres. The price is 20 grand. That is all I can spend as I am broke from buying the other tractors. My wife threw me out and I sleep on the porch, lol. Hey, it could happen!! I know one should know about grousers, pins&bushings, rails, carriers rollers, track rollers, front idler height, which are Greek to me now. To me the dozer looks good, has powershift transmission (2 levers on each side of the seat?) Inside the cab looks good. The pictures tell it all somewhat. The only thing I think to really worry about is the steering pumps or whatever else. I need some feedback on this dozer. It looks about like a John Deere 750 or so, maybe. Does anyone know anything about this Liebherr 731CL? I found this site this morning and it's the only forum I have come across to get answers (I think). This is my first entry, so I hope the pictures are uploaded right!! Thank you all for some input, Sincerely, DoubleNickel http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0919.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0920.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0921.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0922.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0923.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0924.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0925.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0926.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0927.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0928.jpg http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t93/1951john/100_0929.jpg
It looks to be in fairly decent shape for 6800 hours, never saw any rock I bet. Sprockets don't look too bad and track shoes and rollers look good from what I see in the pictures. Sheet metal and such is good. Blade looks good. Liebherr built some pretty nice excavators and were inovators with hydrostatic drives in crawler loaders and dozers. That said, they had some seal problems in the pumps, motors and valves that were difficult and expensive to repair. See if there is a recent undercarriage survey available. Check for any recent oil sample analysis reports, not just engine, but hydraulic and final drives as well. Check coolant for signs of oil, check oil compartments for signs of coolant. If sample reports are not available, can or would you take some samples to be tested? Your local Cat house can test them for you for the basic problems. Check out oil or other fluid leaks, look for cracks in frames and other components, particularly roller frames. Check suspension and pins/bushings that mount it to tractor frame. Check radiator condition and of course cooling system and other belts and pulleys. Ya got to operate it for a while, get it hot and see how it does. Check engine performance and drivetrain action. Work the hydraulics, are they slow or chattering? Lots to look at and feel if you can. But you know, for maybe fifty to a hundred hours a year on 14 acres, it may be a nice little tractor that doesn't have to work too hard. There are thousands like it all over the country from all the old manufacturers. Almost costs more to keep them around than they are worth. I don't know what Liebherr parts and service is like now a days. Never was real good you know. Maybe a search on the net would help, might give you some idea of the present value anyway, and there might be someone specializing in old Liebherr's somewhere around this country. I haven't worked on one since, let's see, 1983 or 4 in Aspen, Colorado. I haven't even seen one in the last ten years anywhere, not even at Ritchie's. Good Luck!
Thanks surfer-joe for the fast reply. Could the undercarriage have been replaced as it looks real good? To bad there isn't a dozerfax like carfax!! As far as all the oil checking, I don't think I want to go that route. Just to much work. (I don't want to push the owner to much, he's been real nice) Checking for cracks is good but I thing there isn't any. I got underneath it and looked all over. No leaks anyway. We started it and it sounded real smooth with miminal black exhaust, only black when we reved it, which is normal, just like my Terex. It moved back and forth smooth and the blade tilting was smooth. The owner has to do a job (he just bought last summer to do this job) with it this summer on his property and I am very invited to run it when he gets all his fill to do the job. That's where I can see how it holds up under strain after a few hours of running it under load. Again, no oil leaks anywhere as I can see and I know my oil leaks when I see them. I take care of my equipment and your right about the hours I will be putting on it. I bought my 2003 Terex 860 backhoe new and it has 249 hours on it now and the Kubota has 79 hours, and I treat them like babys. I don't know, sometimes you just gotta take a chance. This forum will help me alot. Thank you very much for your reply. DoubleNickel
It's a good possibility on the U/C replacement. I can't tell from the pictures if the links are SALT. (sealed & lubricated) Sprockets do show some wear so it wasn't real recent. Sounds otherwise like you have a plan.
Leibherr dozer Hi, Double Nickel. Welcome to the forum. That is a neat-looking machine. If I had to have a guess, I'd bet that the running gear on that machine has been done up. It's EXTREMELY unusual to get 6,800 hours out of a set of running gear and have them still looking like that. I've NEVER managed it. Again, if I were in a guessing mood, I'd guess that those track chains are SALT. Most manufacturers that I know of who build SALT track include the hollow in the end of each pin to protect the seal plug after the pin/bush is filled with oil. I have never run a Liebherr anything so I'm no expert. However, my powers of observation tell me that everybody whom I have seen buy Liebherr dozers and/or track loaders no longer has them or just no longer has them out where the public can see them, i.e., not working. I think there is a message in there somewhere. I'm not sure what that message might be as I also don't know what parts and service back-up is like for them in my neck of the woods - South-east Queensland, Australia. It may be just a local thing around here. Poor service can very effectively kill off what might otherwise be a good machine. If you don't want to upset the current owner by taking oil samples, etc., I'd ask you this one question. "Would you rather be upset yourself later on if you buy it and it has serious hiccups?" At least check all the fluids yourself before he starts his job and after he has completed it and note any differences that may show up in them. Hope this helps.
1985 Liebherr PR 731CL Thanks Deas Plant: WOW Australia, this forum really gets DownUnder. First thing I would like to say is we miss Steve Erwin. He was the best and will always be the best. Nobody will top him. I can say my family and I think the whole world misses him. That's what I thought about the undercarriage. Looks to good to be the original. Are the links with SALT something new? I am already learning something. O'man, the heck with the dozer having hiccups, I would develop uncontrollable hiccups. That would be a nightmare!! I gotta admit, it looks good for 22 years old. Sincerely, DoubleNickel
Wow... yes it looks in great shape :thumbsup SALT is an acronym for sealed and lubricated track. The cavities between the bushings and pins are lubricated with a heavy oil and unless there is severe impact/loading between the pin and bushing causing galling, or the seals leak there will be very little internal wear (often called stretch) between the pins and bushings. Most dozers are equipped with SALT links, smaller excavators generally use a sealed track (not lubricated). I would agree that them looking like that after 6800 hrs in use is pretty unlikely.
Animal handlers, oil samples and hiccups. Hi, DoubleNickel. I agree wholeheartedly with you about Steve Irwin being missed. While I do think he did a lot of the stuff that did with animals in a rather 'showman' fashion, he certainly knew his stuff. By 'showman' fashion, I mean that he disturbed or taunted many of the animals beyond what I believe was a reasonable need. In saying that, I'm not necessarily putting him down because I FREELY admit that he did know his stuff. And he did things the way he did for a reason, to get the various critters to exhibit certain behaviours. My point is that he could have told his audience of those behaviours and jeft it at that, avoiding upsetting the critters. However, we have another bloke DownUnder whom I think is every bit as good as Steve Irwin when it comes to dispensing information, dealing with animals and entertaining while doing it, although in a very different way. He doesn't have Steve Irwin's 'pizzazz' and over-the-top, bouncing-off-the-walls energy. Instead, he is much more matter-of-fact, down to earth and direct. His name is Rob Bredl, otherwise known as 'the Barefoot Bushman'. He also handles snakes out in the wild, but very often without them getting aggravated or aggressive. I also wouldn't want to bet that you've heard the last of the Irwin family either. Steve and Terri's 8 year old daughter, Bindi, shows a fair bit of promise with animals too and doesn't seem to be bothered much by being in front of the public or the cameras. There is always the possibility that it could be in the current owner's best interests too for you to take oil samples and have them tested. If there is some major problem lurking there and it show in the tests before it becomes a 'Major', he would have the chance of getting it fixed early and quite possibly at less expense. If, as you said in your earlier posts, he hasn't started his job yet, he probably knows little if anything more about the condition of the machine than you do. Many people have severe attacks of 'hiccups' some time after they have purchased a 'new' second-hand machine. There is always a reason why the previous owner is selling it. Some folks are just more up-front about their reasons for selling than others. Having said that, I also have to admit that it would be some sort of gross over-capitalisation to buy a NEW dozer to work on your 14 acres - - - unless you just happen to be Bill Gates and then you could buy whatever you d**n liked.
Hi: Deas Plant, Got ya on Steve Erwin, you have to have showmanship to make it big time. I checked google on Rob Bredl (Barefoot Bushman), he's right up there too. My kids watch Steve on Animal Planet all the time. I think it's the way he died that shocked us all. Bill Gates I am not. I'm just a speck of sand on the is animal planet that spent to much money on the 2 tractors that I already have. That's what the wife tells me!! lol, So a new dozer is out of the question. You are exactly right about the owner of this dozer. I prob know more about the machine than he does. (which I don't know much) He said the dozer blade didn't float. Well I checked around and you have to do 2 things to make it float, so I called him and told him and he was suprised to here that. Like I said he only bought it to do the job on his land and then planned to sell it. Hmm, so he says? He is a mechanic and he also sounds honest. He has a small shop behind his house, so he buys and sells. Checking through the internet, I know where he bought it. I have prob 3 to 4 months to find more about this machine through this forum, maybe. I just found out on how to put a signature on the bottom of each post, so it's easy to see the picture on what I'm talking about. The first post of this thread has all the pictures Sincerely, DoubleNickel
It would probably be a better idea to put a link to this thread in your signature than to the photos, that way prospective replies will be all in one place and they can see what has already been discussed.
How's dat rofessor Steve. "I'm learning, with a little help from my friends".:usa
I mean "I can get by with a little from my friends" :IMOThis is the bestest forum going!
With buying a Liebherr you're biggest problem is going to be parts. Not only now but five or 10+ years into the future. I suggest you call your dealer (not sure who carries parts for Liebherr) and price some parts and check the availability as well. You may find that you can get what you need and the price is ok or you may find that you can't get anything or it may take a long time to get some stuff. Do some prying if you can. Your dealer may have some good insight on the situation. I'm sure there are some guys here that can suggest what to look up as I don't know too much about what goes wrong with dozers. I think you can't go wrong with an older Deere or Cat. You would need some more opinions but a good used Case may be a steal for farm work. Deere 750B Deere 850 Deere 850 Case 1450 Cat D6C Of course you could try to convince your wife that for a little more you can get a used D9. "But honey, it's a D-niiiiiine! Pleeeease!"
Yup lars, been looking at them before you posted them. The Liebherr I'm talking about came from that dealer. They both look good.:spongebob There is a dealer 40 miles away that I will visit, as I called them about the steering pumps. I don't know if they are a Liebherr dealer. You can talk only so much on the phone, but a replacement pump is 13 grand each. Deere 750B Case 1450 Thanks for the insight, Sincerely, DoubleNickel
The early Liebherr dozers such as this model, are a disaster. I even had a Liebherr salesman admit to me, that they were the biggest problem machines that Liebherr ever built. The Liebherr excavators are very good machines, but their dozers are something you need to back away from, holding out a cross, if one ever comes near you. The final drives are exceptionally weak, and break down on a regular basis. Their hydrostatic transmission is complex, costly, and suffers from the basic 'hydrostatic transmission in dozers', problems of overheating, and sluggish power transmission to the tracks. If you think you're broke now .. it will be nothing compared to what you'll be, if you buy that Liebherr. It will keep you poor. In Australia, it's virtually impossible to sell these machines, used, and anytime they appear for sale, they are 50% the price of any other comparable size crawler. Put on your running shoes, and run as far and fast as you can. Even if you found an old wrecked Cat .. and had to completely rebuild it from a rusty, worn-out wreck .. you'd be so far in front, compared to owning a Liebherr dozer, it wouldn't be funny. Don't touch it with a 40' pole. Govts buy crap like this, because they don't know what a good crawler looks like, let alone know what to buy .. plus, they have unlimited funds to keep patching up bad model machines. Run away screaming ..
WOW OzDozer: I may be getting a better and different picture? Anyone else out there with comments like OzDozer? Thank you OzDozer for your honesty. Sincerely, DoubleNickel
DN - I didn't mean to rain on your parade, but as an obvious newbie to crawlers, you have the potential to be a prime sucker for someone to unload an unsaleable machine onto. The tractor has obviously had a lot of money spent on rebuilding it, as the undercarriage is in excellent condition for the machine hours. However, the drivetrain is a big unknown factor. If a major part fails, such as a final drive, or a hydro pump or motor, you will be up for huge $$ .. and there's a high possibility of that happening within a short space of time, under your ownership. The fact that the tractor of that size is for sale at $20K, is enough to make any reasonable person suspicious. It indicates that most knowledgable tractor people won't even give it a second glance. However .. if you're happy to risk your $20K .. and you only need a 'play tractor', for light work .. and you only want to do 100 hrs a year ... AND ... you're prepared to write off your entire investment, if a major component of the machine blows, within 200-300 hrs ....... well, you might as well buy it. I've seen people do this before .. with dreadful things such as Belarus tractors, and other unreliable junk machines. They are happy to risk their outlay in its entirety, and write the whole amount off, after a relatively short period, because they only need to do light work, and only need to use the machine on a sporadic basis. If it was me, though .. I'd rather buy an older Cat, that has a known high reliability factor .. good parts availability .. and good resale, when I need to quit it. The Liebherr's only resale value, after it's in your hands, is whatever the scrap price is currently bringing in your area .. Good luck with your decision.
You guys from down under are my kind of people!! You lay your cards on the table with no BS, take 'em or leave 'em! That's the way I've lived my life as well. There's not a whole lot like that left in the States anymore, too many puffed up chests and the need for high boots.:throwup
OzDozer said what I was hinting at. Hi, DoubleNickel. As I mentioned in my first post, I don't have any personal experience with Leibherr dozers or track loaders. However, as I also mentioned in my first post, NOBODY that I have seen with Liebherr dozers or track loaders is STILL using them. That was as far as I was prepared to go because of my lack of PERSONAL experience with them. OzDozer has come out and bluntly stated what I was alluding to. He may well have seen more of these jiggers than I have and so be able to form a more definite judgement. Having met OzDozer, I respect his opinion in such matters and even more so because it is borne out by my own observations. 'Le ball' is now in your court. Personally, I'd be looking for something that has a better track record. And, depending on exactly what you want to do with it, you may want to consider a track loader with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. They are a FAR more versatile machine than a dozer and will be working at all sorts of jobs around your small property while a dozer would be sitting in the shed doing nothing.
1985 Liebherr PR 731CL Folks, I got my running shoes on and I am gone. I started running last night and haven't stoppped yet like "Forest Gump":waving I am gonna stick to stand transmission dozers for pushing power as my DownUnder friends are Super. A Track Loader, Hmm. I did't even think of them. Could be some interest there. I have been looking at this Liebherr for 8 months with concern and through this forum, I'm gonna run for some time!!! You guys are the best and this forum is the greatest!!!! Sincerely, DoubleNickel PS: I got lots of time to buy a Dozer.
Wulf's got a good dozer going cheap here:
Yer Welkum Hi, DoubleNickel. Yer welkum. As I said earlier, everybody I've ever seen who bought them is either out of business now or has changed to other brands. I tend to think there is a message in there somewhere. Who knows, you may get the only that God ever let anybody pump fuel into that is any good but I'd hate to bet on it. Happy hunting.
Wulf will not sell it to me. It's his Pride and Joy. It's a real WorkerBee!!
...and if you're goin' that route we have you covered for that as well: All hail the King...:notworthy Joe
And in the meantime, there's a guy out there somewhere trying to unload a Liebherr dozer who's ready to declare war on this forum, and Australia... :bash :guns
We will keep dat a Trade Secret:falldownlaugh
If you don't have that much work, have you thought about renting a good D6? get it done and turn it back. DP
Is it me or has that tractor had the grousers added to them:usa
or should I say had grouser bars welded on
Yes, the grousers have been rebuilt with grouser rebuild bar, as you'd expect for the hours the tractor has done. The undercarriage, overall, is in pretty good shape. The Mercedes V6 is probably the best part of the whole machine .. it's the rest of the tractor that's the worry. The fact that this thing has been for sale for 8 months, is pretty indicative that it's a saleyard dog. Maybe he needs to offer a set of steak knives with it?? ..
DoubleNickel, I'm in the same boat as you when it comes too dozer knowledge, but I bought a '67 John Deere 350 dozer and have found that the parts for it have been readily available. They don't even laugh at me when I tell them what year it is at the JD dealership, which I appreciate. There also seems to be alot of JD dozers around, atleast in my area. This must mean something. Good Luck in your search!:thumbsup
Yup, Jeff D. I read your whole thread. You shopped around. What did you pay for the 350 again?:usa DPeat: Renting, Hmm. For a D6N is $4800 Month and $1600 Week. I'll have to take some pics of the property to show you all what I may do. DoubleNickel:thumbsup
$7500. I tried to get him down, but he wouldn't budge. The machine seemed in good mechanical shape, so I went for it. I don't know really if it was a good price or not though. You mentioned wanting an exclusively gear drive transmission. I can understand being leary of hydraulic problems, but you may not be able to get something exclusively "gear driven" with a reverser too, which is a nice feature. Mine has a standard gear tranny, and the optional reverser. The reverser replaces the clutch, and is a hydraulic fluid coupling (pumps, valves and all)between the engine and tranny. There is still a chance for hydraulic problems in the drive system with this. It is a nice option though. It saves alot of shifting and clutching. The reverser is a basically a small lever on the dash that will reverse direction in any gear without needing to depress the clutch. I use it alot more than I imagined I would. The switch not jerky when switched either. It is slightly gradual. I don't know if the bigger ones you're looking at are similiar in their drive systems, but that's something I've learned about mine.
Hmm, I'm only a junior member and still going to Dozer Skoo, and with graduation to First Grade still sometime away, I gots lots to learn. What I've learned so far that in the mid 80's when hydrostatic drive was being introduced, it had its problems. So that said, I guess it would be wise, if looking for a little bigger dozer, (and da Bucks to buy one) to keep to the standard transmission (whatever that is:beatsme) for a dozer from 1975 to 85, as I couldn't afford a newer hydrostatic one. The Liebherr I was looking at looks great, but to invest 20 Grand in:crying a slug would be the death of me!! Would anyone back me up on dat theory? Sincerely, DoubleNickel Here is a cool link, I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM
We have had sevral gear drive dozers the most reliable is a D5 or d5b the 6C`s and the D`s are good dozers:usa
Welcome to HEF goatroper! :drinkup
Thank you for the kind welcome ,being an oilfeild operater I am proud to be oilfeild trash,and love what I do.:usa
There are many varieties of transmissions in crawlers, with the oldest and simplest being the direct drive, clutch and constant mesh transmission, same as in your manual transmission family car or pickup. In crawlers, apart from a few of the really small machines, the only difference is, the clutch is hand operated. These transmissions are good for work where you don't need to change speeds or directions too much. As Jeff D found, a hydraulic shuttle clutch is a boon, to save a heap of tiring clutch-and-gearlever shifts, on these style of transmissions .. but they aren't common on crawlers, apart from a few of the small rigs. Crawler manufacturers spent decades trying to develop transmissions that were easier to operate, more efficient, and allowed on-the-go speed and direction shifting. Torque converters inserted in a direct drive, drivetrain, were the first attempt to improve transmission design, and were introduced by Allis Chalmers in 1947. The TC enabled the engine to operate at its maximum torque range, without stalling, and the TC's flexibility enabled the designers to reduce the number of gear speeds from 6 to 3. Cat came out with the planetary-design powershift transmission in 1959. The Cat transmission is really only a highly sophisticated version of ole Henry's Model T transmission. Both versions use planetary gearsets, but whereas the Model T used brake bands around the gearsets, to change speed and direction, the Cat powershift uses oil-pressure-operated, multi-plate clutch packs. The Cat tranny is combined with another clever device .. what Cat call the Torque Divider. A TD is a planetary gearset combined with a torque converter, so that 30% of the power from the engine to the tracks, is transmitted mechanically via the planetary gearset, and 70% is transmitted via the torque converter. This gives a more efficient transfer of power, as compared to a straight torque converter .. and the Cat powershift has set the standard for powershift transmissions since they were invented. Other manufacturers such as IH and Case tried simpler versions of the Cat tranny, often using countershaft transmissions with hydraulic clutch packs on the ends of the shafts. These are a little simpler than Cat trannies, but often suffer from jerky shifting, due to poor hydraulic control design. Case designed up a complex dual transmission, with a tranny for each track, and a speed and direction lever for each track, enabling counter-rotating tracks. Like many 'advanced' designs (read 'complex'), they can be expensive to fix when things go wrong .. and they aren't reliable when it comes to heavy dozing. Hydrostatic transmissions were the next kid on the block .. with several manufacturers bragging they were the simplest and greatest idea around. They aren't. The principle is simple .. two hyd pumps drive two hydraulic motors, and transfer power from engine to tracks. The problem is that hydro trannies need complex valving to operate .. generate huge amounts of heat, that has to be dissipated .. and are inefficient at higher operating speeds, where they have trouble with huge power losses. They can be noisy in operation, due to bad hose and piping design .. and they generally have an annoying abundance of hoses and pipes that either blow, or leak, and that are mostly inaccessible .. The manufacturers of hydro trannies bragged about huge cost savings, over powershift trannies, with no expensive gears, clutch packs, shafts, or large numbers of bearings to replace .. but they forgot to mention that hydro pumps or motors can set you back 10-15K for a single pump or motor, when one blows .. thus putting a big hole in their argument. Hydro trannies are improving, with Cat using them in a number of smaller crawlers .. but they have never been used with success in dozers of the larger sizes, because of their inherent design drawbacks. They perform best on cycling (back-and-forth) work, under light to moderate loads, and doing clean-up work. Most hydro trannies require special oils to perform as designed. The Liebherr crawler that DN has been looking at, is a very early Liebherr design, that was essentially their first attempt at building a crawler .. and it was a dog. Liebherr have gradually improved on crawler design, but are still a long way behind the 8-ball, when it comes to a crawler that is robust, well designed, has modest parts costs, and good back-up. Now that JD and Liebherr have collabarated on crawlers, things have improved a little .. but nothing will help anyone who owns one of those early Liebherr dozers.
Thanks Ozdozer for the information.:thumbsup Those are the type of post I enjoy reading most on here. The kind that help me understand equipment from the inside better, and give a historical perspective to their evolution.
Yea, thanks for the infor OzDozer. This is how we (I) learn. Jeff D, I like dat lever on the dash (boon). Well OzDozer, your 12 hours ahead of me. Soon it will be "Time to make the Donuts" again. Good Night:sleeping Sincerely, DoubleNickel:usa
Setting the standard - and following it. Hi, DoubleNickel. OzDozer has pretty much nailed the history of transmissions in crawler tractors. Re hydrostatic transmissions, Liebherr is the only manufacturer that I know of who has tried to put them into bigger dozers, with not very encouraging results. Cat and JD have had a lot of success with Hydro. trans. in their track loaders and small dozers respectively ( Up to JD850 dozer that I have operated.) The Cat track loaders have set the standard for track loaders for as long as I can remember, from stick-shift, through powershift, to hydrostatic drive. I operated a JD850 hydrostatic dozer and a JD755 hydrostatic track loader (the first two into Australia) at a demo field day way back in 1983 and they both handled well and worked well, except that I thought the 850 dozer was a little light in the front. Maybe that's just me. Still it did impress me favourably and I have heard quite a few people since saying that JD still make good small dozers up to the 850 model. Like OzDozer, I am not very favourably impressed with Case dozers or track loaders because of the complexity of their transmissions - fine if you want to use them as a paperweight - but I have only ever seen ONE contractor around here who got BIG hours out of one. He is an owner operator who almost literally eats, sleeps and dreams Case 1150B. He understands his machine and operates it according to his understanding and he has had a fairly good although not exactly fantastic run out of it. I have also heard some good reports about some of the smaller International/Dresser machines. While not an International Harvester fan, I have developed some little respect for the old IH TD9 dozer. I wouldn't RAVE over it but I do have some respect for it. The bigger IH models I would avoid like the plague for any REAL dozer work although I do know of one owner who swears by them for snow train work in Northern Canada. I have no experience of the larger Dresser dozers. The smaller Komatsus also seem to give reasonable although not fantastic service, although I have no idea what service and parts back-up is like in your neck of the woods. Service and parts back-up ought to be one of your MAJOR considerations when buying ANY machine. It is positively amazing how quickly a machine can take on the appearance of scrap iron when you find that some part that you need is made of 'unobtainium', to borrow an expression from OzDozer. Hope some of this helps.
Hi Deas Plant: You guys are great!! While looking for a Dozer in the 80 to 85 year range. (cause of price) Maybe in the D5 range (size area-and if it fits my budget) with a Powershift Transmission may be the way to go? Cat or JD probably. What do you think? We have Cat and JD dealers in my area. With you guy-es help, I'll get there, and get the correct model and size for me. I got plenty of time. Sincerely, DoubleNickel
Dozer options. Hi, DN. You will pay a bit of a 'premium' for a decent Cat machine pretty much anywhere in the world but there is a pretty fair reason for that, They have an enviable reputaton, especially enviable if you happen to be another dozer manufacturer. That is not to say that thay haven't made some duds. They have. It's just that their good ones are so much better than most of their competition and their duds are fewer. The Cat D5B is a good little machine, especially in wide gauge if you happen to be in hilly country. It does have a bit of reputation for doing final drives but I asked a fair bit of the one I was on in the 2 1/2 years that I operated it and it never let me down in that area. Mind you, I was aware of the situation and didn't beat the bejazuz out of it but then I don't go around beating the hell out of machines anyway. I did ask it to do some fairly hard work, including some fairly heavy ripping - it had a great ripper on it - and it always came through. I continually cut levels to +/- 1/2 - 3/4 inch with it, checked by laser. And it was powershift. I keep hearing reports of the smaller JD machines being very good too. I have no recent JD experience and very little JD experience at all so I am not in a position to comment. They are not a brand that we see a lot of around here but I suspect that that may have something to do with the local distributor too. If you could give a description of what work you want to do with a dozer - or a track loader - the sort of country, any rock, tree types and sizes, soil types, hills and slopes, etc., some of the members here might be able to give you a better idea of what might do the job for you, especially those close to you who might have experience with similar conditions. If you have ANY clearing other than short brush, a good tree canopy or a ROPS/FOPS is a MUST. (ROPS = Roll Over Protection Structure - FOPS = Fall Object Protection Structure.) Keep asking. The only stupid question is the one you DON'T ask.
:nono OK Deas, you've given me clearance then.......... Is there any one thing that remains constant within the manufacturers' models as they've progressed through their series changes? For example, to me it seems Cat's early models (D6's, D7's, etc.) seem to have very little similarities with their later dozers of the same #'s, like HP, torque, or operating weight. Is there anything that remains constant within the same models' series variations, other than the model # itself? Each series change seems to bring increases in power and weight until they've grown far from the original models spec's. Or am I missing something?:beatsme
Cat D8s aren't that much different in weight or HP I've got 2 D8K's from early 80's 300 HP about 84000 operating weight The D8T 4 models and 23 years later is 310 HP and 84000 lbs. The D8L was heavier and had a V8 but Cat downsized with the D8N back to D8K HP and weight. DP
Stoopidd Kwestyunn????????????? Hi, JeffD. You have been given clearance and if it IS a stupid question, there are a LOT of stupid people out there 'cos many want to know. From Randy Leffingwell's "Caterpillar Farm Crawlers And Bulldozers', the 'R' in 'RD' stood for Roosevelt, the 'D' stood for Diesel and it didn't take long for the 'R' to disappear from the nomencalture and all models became just 'D'. This change happened in the period 1935 to 1938 or thereabouts. This information is from the recollections of Henry Howard who worked for Caterpillar for many years in the 1920's, '30's and 40's. The changes from the original naming system based loosely on the horsepower of the tractor to this system came about because of the increasing number of models each time the company introduced an upgraded model with increased horsepower. There was also the problem of having numbers that related to horsepower not necessarily rolling off the tongue all that well. This led to numbers being chosen that didn't accurately relect the horsepower and debates about honesty ensued. The change to 'RD' and then to simply 'D' avoided these problems. The numbers, 6, 7, 8, etc., originally roughly related to the horsepower in units of ten as the the RD6 was around 60 horsepower, +/-, the RD7 was around 70 hp and the RD8 was around 80 hp. It was decided that the model designations would not change as horsepower increased so the models names remained constant as the tractor increased in size and power. The above Randy Leffingwell book is well worth buying and/or reading as it has insights into the development and growth of Caterpillar that the Eric Orlemann books don't have. F'rinstance, it has some information about the development of Cat's first working diesel crawler engine and the research that went into it. It appears that when they realised that they had to go the diesel road, they bought a Benz diesel, shipped it back to Peoria, took it apart, saw what made it work and then designed an engine based on the Benz but with some changes. Again, this information is from the recollections of Henry Howard who says that it all started when a gas Cat Sixty was beaten by a Fowler tractor with a Benz diesel in it in a plowing contest on the Nile cotton fields in Egypt in 1927. Hope this helps.
Oh, alrighty then, thanks. I'm not postive, but swear I'd read or heard somewhere that "originally" the Cat's model #'s were the horsepower/10. So a D8 would've ben around 80hp. Maybe I'm mistaken though. I'd looked at an early D7, and was suprised to find it's weight was much lighter than I expected. I was under the impression a D7 was around the 50K mark.:beatsme Also when I've viewed KoO's post his D6 seemed much smaller than the D6's of today. I haven't hany hard data to go by that support my idea there was a gradual increase in their sizes/power though, through their development, so I may well be wrong.
Thanks Deas. You confirmed my idea about the HP/ model # relationship.
The Hood shrunk while it was in the wash
Wot's Chainged????????? Hi, JeffD. Yes, it appears that the original model designations did relate roughly to horsepower but, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it was decided that that was not going to be policy with future models. So, wot's chainged? If you look at the models of today and compare them with those old originals, you may just notice - if you're not blinded by some of Squizzy's 'desert angel dust' - that the current models have a far better power-to-weight ratio than the earlier beasts.
Uh...............No!!!:nono The "Hood" may have been in the water, but it was "cold" water. That's just what you do so things don't shrink. Although it might've shrunken up when it was put it in the dryer. Probobly pretty tough on the dryer too, how bout it?! clunk, clang, bang Yup, yup. I guess I'll stop here with my rambling questions, atleast until Double Nickel is able to locate a dozer. He might legitamately want to use this(his) thread again in that process. Thanks again Deas for the knowledge!
THAT Knowledge. Hi JeffD. Yer welcome to ther knowledge, Mate. It wasn't mine anyway. I just remembered reading it, found it again, condensed it a mite and put it up here to answer your question. Is anybody making a log of all these posts with this sort of info in them for future reference?
O,boy: Everyone, I am truly very sorry for posting #52&53. I thought keeping certain information in one place would be a good idea. I am stupid and should be lashed. I guess I just went crazy. Please accept my apology. Skype was stupid to. I thought talking live at times to members would be good also. I find something good and mess it up. PS-Steve could you somehow delete my last 2 posts. Thank you. Sincerely, DoubleNickel I'm going down back to bury myself!!!
Well you said it DoubleNickel
Don't beat yourself up too badly there, Doublenickle. Your intentions were good, just not in sync with the way we've gotten used to doing things. And if you are going to bury yourself out back, take a laptop along and stay with us, because we still think you're an ok guy... On edit: the two specified posts have been removed, as per your request.
Fine Digger, you beat me too it!:Banghead Here's what I had been typing up: Double Nickel, I'm not sure what you're referring too, but by what you said in your last post it sound like whatever mistake was made has been taken care of, so it's not important. I'm sure you're not the first nor will be the last person who's posted something with good intentions, albeit maybe wrong, and later wished they hadn't. I know I have, and no-ones ever thrown it in my face later. (ok, maybe jokingly) Keep us updated about your dozer search. Jeff
The Very Idea Of It - Cain't Doo Dat, It Makes Sense. Hi, DD. Nope. You cain't do things like that, keeping tecker-nickel info where people can find it and then they don't hafta ask their 'STOOOPIDD' kwestyuns. Waddarya tryin ter do - - - put all theez forums outa biznuss. I have put it to Steve about doing something like this, having a sticky folder where technical and/or generally informative articles and posts could be stored for future reference for all those who come along after us. I'd even be happy to write a few pieces for such a folder. Let's see what happens.
I'll second that but I reckon Deas stole my idea while I was trying to find some smart backside remark for DN. Anyways, on some ere forums downunder we call that forum "The Best of The Best". Forum members suggest threads to be included...and these are threads for real informative heavy equipment reading....not like what Jeff an Digger Post ( pot this is kettle ..over ). The lonley Friday thread might not qualify if yer knows what I'm saying The purpose of this is so the moderator can put a heading on the thread explaining the contents such that it can be searched up much easier. For instance if your looking for a particular piece/post about a D11 but can't remeber the name of the thread and you search for "D11" you get this: if you search for "Dozer" you get 408 threads to search through....if you remember more then you can used the advanced search but I have been stumped a few times trying to find a thread. anyways...this should all be transferred over to forum suggestions.
Well, this is what I was told what happened. Yo were riding yo horse, fell off and hit yo head hard on a rock. Went insane for a few days, then was Told the right treatment and now yo on the road to recovery. Yup, dats what I was told!
Bulldozer buying Deas Plant. Your post #46 was good, and is essentially my understanding of how the dozer numbering system at Cat evolved. I'll have to look for that book you mentioned, it sounds like an interesting read. I've met a number of old timers at Caterpillar over the years, wished I'd had the foresight to talk with them more about their working lives at Cat. Lot's of interesting stories there.
Old information and history Hi, Joe. I'm no history nut but I do reckon that every effort ought to be made to keep the history of the evolution of earthmoving and construction machines as complete as possible. I'd also like to see some sort of record kept of the older ways of doing things for people who still don't have the 'you beaut' modern gear to play with. I also don't see a lot of point in spending 40+ years in the saddle then simply retiring and fading away, taking all that gathered experience and knowledge to the grave with me. THAT is why I come to forums like this and my day is made if I can save ONE person from having to find out something the hard way. I haven't had a lot of opportunities to talk to older hands about their experiences and finding out what they knew from them - been too busy having my own experiences and finding out for myself. Where I consider that I have been fortunate is in the bloke who was my first and only real formal instructor, in the jobs I have been given and the supervision that I have had - the third only sometimes. I have also been fortunate in that, right from the start of my operating career, I had a natural ability to quickly sum up a machine, its capabilities and its lacks, and work with it rather than fight it to achieve the task at hand. That natural ability also allowed me to do a lot of my work pretty much on auto-pilot, without having to really think about it from very early in my career. This has allowed me a LOT of time for thinking over the years, which has led to me also doing a fair bit of work with myself and others in the personal development field - which has also been VERY rewarding.
:thumbsup That's exactly how I feel too! The first machine I bought on my own was a '39 Farmall H farm tractor. Paid $1100 for it in the mid 90's. I would've preferred newer stuff at the time, but couldn't afford much more for basically a toy too push snow and brush hog with, so.......... This began my interest in older equipment. I've always wanted to pay cash for whatever I bought, and don't mind tinkering, so older equipment fit my needs well. I've always bought machines with more of a "hobbiest's" enthusiasm, rather than the idea to try and make money with it. Working on, and operating this older stuff has made me more curious about the history of these machines and how they were used back in the old days. It also gives me more respect for the people who had too use this stuff when it was new, and better understanding of how it got to where it is today. It would be a shame for this history to be forgotton. I remember a couple sayings I've heard. I may not have them exactly right, but they were something like "The best way to predict the future is to study the past." and another "Those who have forgetten the past are doomed to repeat it." I'm starting to understand better what they mean as I'm getting older, and in more ways than just with the equipment. What I'd particularly enjoy is a "History of dozers". Something that starts at their beginnings, and includes all the improvements made by the different manufactures, current and defunct. I've thought that Cat and the rest wouldn't be what they are today if it weren't for these improvements made by other Co.'s like AC, etc that have since faded away. This would be a good project for you when you're bored, or retired Deas.
Bored??????? Retired?????????? Do not compute. Hi, JeffD. Bored????????? Retired??????????? These terms do not compute. Input, input. (Five Is Alive.) Between work, these forums and my personal development and alternative healing work, I don't have time to get bored. Sleep is often an optional extra - 4-5 hours a night. May I suggest that you take it on?????????????? You might like to take a look in the Transport - Trucks section of these forums at the Truck For Sale post. A GREAT opportunity for a young feller to get a start in life.
Jeff, great idea! Deas has a long history of running machines as does some others on HEF. I have always been interested in history and especially with history about something that I have a lot of interest in like heavy equipment. Prior to lasers, gps, or air conditioning how was it done? I think that the skill involved back in the day was greater than what you need today. I sit in my heated or ac cab on my dozer with joysticks in my hand (no need to make a comment) and it is pretty easy to get good results with out a lot of practice. I think that future machines are only going to make it easier to do what is expected of them with less and less skill. Look at GPS, Laser etc. Not a bad thing but we should not forget or appreciate and respect what the operators before us had to do. Look at the internet, any thing you want to know it is all here, just Google it. I was driving past a very old cemetery with my kids one day and pulled in to look at some of the very old grave stones. Some of them from 1850 and the size and detail of the stones was amazing. My son took down some of the names and when we got home he Google them and we spent a afternoon researching the famous people that were buried in that cemetery. Most of our streets in my town are named after those people. Got off track, sorry, but history is cool.
I have seen pictures of dozers pushing down, well for lack of better descripition, cliffs. Not really quit that bad but you get the idea. Anyway I think not only has techneques (sp) changed but what is excepetable risk taken.
It is amazing, and for alot of equipment like older farm tractors the history is pretty well documented. I've noticed for construction equipment it doesn't hold up as well. For manufacturers still in business it's good, but for those that aren't, not too well. I search for Hough info when I was looking at my wheel loader and there just wasn't much available. This wasn't a flash in the pan company either. They were around along time, but very little history is available online. Same with the Massy Dozers. Most of the info was from other members here. I couldn't find much on my own pertaining to them. I'm not sure why this is, but it could possibly be that farming equipment is manufactured at much higher numbers than construction equipment. Just my theory.:beatsme
Cliffs work both ways H, PSDF350. Somewhere buried deep in the anals of this forum is a post about how I took a bare-a***d, angle blade D9G up an 8 foot vertical wall one night at an iron ore mine in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. As I mentioned in that post, I don't think I'd like to try it with a hi-sprocket machine. It's mostly just knowing your machine. I was 23 years of ripe old age at the time so I 'MUSTA' bin a real 'full bottle' on knowing my machine, huh? Full of all the knoweldge and wisdom that only the young can possess?????? Re: History. http://inventors.about.com/od/bstartinventions/a/bulldozer.htm?terms=bulldozers http://inventors.about.com/od/articlesandresources/ig/Antique-Tractors---Photos.--0J/index.htm
Around here we call it full of **** and vinagar. So your famous I see. Thanks for links.
Thanks Deas. Well?! A guy could get used to being called that easy enough.:notworthy
I'd rather not get used to it. Hi, JeffD. I'd rather not get used to it. Firstly, it's her term not mine. And I don't consider myself an expert, just another bloke with some experience and about enough knowledge to be dangerous. Then there's the breakdown of the word 'expert' - an 'ex' is either a has-been or an unknown quantity and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure. I DON'T want to qualify as wunna them. Maybe I'da done better to sign on here as 'Clueless'. LOL.
lol but it's not a spurt. it's pert as in pert nipp1es. Which I also dont wonna know.:drinkup
You stay outa this. Hi, PSDF350. You stay outa this. I like my version better and I'm in charge of what I like. "SPURT". LOL.
Not a problem I really didn't want to see you pert anyway.
Good! That's settled then. You have a great Easter.
You to my friend.
Update I'm back from falling off my horse. I feel better now.
Cat 1979 D5B http://cgi.ebay.com/CATERPILLAR-197...3QQihZ014QQcategoryZ97121QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Tractor runs out very well. The D5B is very responsive to the steering clutches, the direct drive dry clutches are also very responsive. There are no major leaks, only small leaks are on the cylinders on the blade(need new seals). Undercarriage(sprockets,rollers,chains are 75%) pads are 50%+. Tractor has good paint, 2 side glass are broken and 1 panel of glass in rear window is gone. The winch is in good operating condition. We used this tractor on our farm for a dirt project. I hired an independent mechanic to do all repairs and serivce on a regular schedule. Any other questions let me know. Thanks Responce from the seller. Can anyone tell me what all the levers do in the cab? What do you think of this machine? I can't get this machine, as it is to far away. Would cost 5 grand just to get it here. The winch is worth 5 grand I think?
All Dem Levers Hi, DoubleNickel. What do all the levers do? Starting from left: Master Clutch Left steering clutch - interconnected with left steering brake. Right " " " " right " " . Throttle Short gear lever is forward-reverse Long gear lever is main box - 5 forward, 4 reverse. (I think) Blade control - lift/lower and tilt on one joystick. Winch control - on panel behind blade control. I have never used one but I suspect it would have 4 positions, wind in, locked/neutral, wind out and free spool. I am open to correction on this. Hope this helps.
Hey DoubleKnickle,nice to see you on another site. I'm "jazak's" dad "KTS" on lanwcafe. Here I'm "jazak" Take a look here this guy is nuts. lol http://www.lawncafe.com/showthread.php?p=286401#post286401 (scroll all the way up)
Oh, that's just great!! My cover is blown. First I beat myself up on this thread, now jazak is lashing me!! -lol- :falldownlaugh How come you just don't tell them about thread #16123 post#67? I show you guys. I just bought this one.:avid
Would that be the "How 2 cut tall pines" thread? :crazy
Holy Smokes: I saw that guy posted at the Post Office today!!! I haven't seen OzDozer lately??