From your experience how many hours can you get out of a 35-40K lb hoe, 315-160 sized, before the repair costs make them non-profitable? 8-10K hours? Of course the maintenance and operation of the machine by the prior owner plays into this big time, so you have to do your homework before purchase. I have been comparing used 315's, assuming an 8K hour life and extrapolating the numbers from how many hours of "useful life" it has left to the revenue it would bring in. Also comparing the purchase price to the hours that are currently on the clock to get a better comparison of the used prices. For example: Column 1 Useful life left -Assuming an 8K hour life, deducting the hours on the used machine, gets the useful life left. Column 2 Purchase price per hour remaining - The purchase price per hour of the remaining life, purchase price divided by column 1 Column 3 Total revenue - Total revenue at $110 per hour retail (a safe base number) X the remaining useful life 2,804.00 $20.15 $308,440 4,438.00 $13.05 $488,180 5,550.00 $10.63 $610,500 4,159.00 $15.03 $457,490 5,400.00 $12.04 $594,000 3,917.00 $16.82 $430,870 5,334.00 $13.50 $586,740 6,117.00 $13.41 $672,870 5,636.00 $15.79 $619,960 7,470.00 $14.04 $821,700 Average price per lb $1.76 for a 37K lb machine There are so many variables that I didn't include but had to start somewhere. Obviously as the machine ages your maintenance/repair bills take a larger % of the revenue the machine brings in. Also every "useful hour remaining" will not be a billable hour either - I need to account for that in my spreadsheet. I don't put a lot of stock into the "revenue" numbers since there are so many variables but it's good to see the comparison. I am a big believer in preventive maintenance, oil analysis and taking care of your iron. I have been focusing on the 2k-4k hour machines, 2004-2006's since there were a lot sold during that time and the prices are more competitive. The reason I am looking only at 315's is that I have owned 2 before and there are many more on the used market in this size class than other makes.
I currently own an '03 315CL with a thumb. It is equipped with the long dipper too. Actual weight is 39,900# (FYI). While I have owned it since new (bought in December of '03) I have only put 4,700 hours on it to date. Right now the only signs of age (excluding cosmetics) are that the boom cylinders are a bit leaky, the front window can be difficult to open (sticky latch), and I think I may have over greased the house bearing because there is a lot of grease dripping on the car body. For it's life it has really only cost me for the normal PM (fliters, fluids, and teeth). I have a 416C that has over 12,000 hours on it so far. I have also owned it since new. This is the only machine I have operated with that many hours on it (or even close to that). Based on my experiences with the two, and many other machines from the last 27 years of operating equipment, I think you are correct in regards to life expectancy. I am expecting at least 10,000 hours out of mine (even the U/C is hardly showing any signs of wear @ 4,700 hrs). Of course this may not be true for each 315 out there. I have bought (3) used machines along with a few used vehicles during my self employment. I only have (1) of the used tractors (an '04 544J bought a year ago with only 1,200 hours on the SMU) still in my fleet. I don't like equipment breakdowns. For me it's not so much the expense of the repairs it's the logistical issues, of keeping the work on track, that is the bigger challenge. Sufice it to say that I prefer to buy new if I can handle the payments. Yes the payments can be high but it is usually a fixed, controlled cost, and breakdowns are rare. Of course it's always nice to have the payments end. Especially if the machine has substantial useable life left. Since I have found such a low houred, and pristine machine, in the 544, I have more confidence in used machines. I still, however, would prefer to buy something with less than 2,000 hours. I know that I have not run my 315 to the point at which it costs too much to keep going but I hope you find my post helpful anyway.
I can't speak for Cat machines,but I would expect a 20,000 hr life out of a hitachi or deere 160,especially the vintage you are looking at,if they have been reasonably cared for. Many of my customers past and present have had high hour 160,490,690 790,892,200 sized machines well over 10,000 houres that are in surprisingly good shape (I did a service on a 200-1 roadbuilder the other day with 26,550 on the clock)
One of our first excavators was a 1984 Cat 215 which we bought in 1985 with about 700 hrs on it. We still own it. The hr meter hasn't worked in a very long time and I would have to estimate 12,000+ hrs on it. No major repairs, it runs as good as the day we got it and is still very peppy, no leaks and is very reliable. VC
Thanks for the discussion and info everyone. DGODGR, yeah they will weigh out more with thumb, coupler, long stick, 28" pads, etc. I probably need to adjust that number to 40K lbs. If funds permitted I would just by new or near new hoe - less than 500 hours and go to work. When you have put the majority of the hours on the machine you know what the machine has been through, not so much on used. The two 315's I had before - one was new and one had 700 hrs on the clock when I bought it. This time around I think the value is in one with more hours on the clock. With the current economic situation, I just don't want a payment. On the used market, there seems to be a large price drop from the machines with 2-3K hours to the ones with 5K or more. Not being a mechanic, I was wondering if 5K hours signaled a major rebuild/replace component failure? I'll rephrase my original question - How many hours can you expect out of the major components before rebuild/replace? Engine Main pump final drives swing drive ECM Etc.. An undercarriage should last 6-8K hrs or so depending on operation and environment. Turned pins and bushings, sprocket segments and pads for my 953 at 3600 hours, but that's a different animal, so I figure a hoe should get a few more hours out of the UC. The last thing you want to do is buy a machine for $40K then have to put $20K into to it and the machine is still only worth $40K.:bash
From my experience, (normal) component lives on CATs (assuming proper maintenance and no abuse) are: Engine: 15-22k hours before rebuild Pumps: 10-15k hours before replacement Final Drives: 20k+ hours if properly maintained Swing Motor: 10-15k hours before rebuild Swing Drive Gearbox: 15k+ hours before rebuild Track Motors: 10-20k hours Undercarriage: 6-8k hours ECM: Could last decades, or fail when new, or anywhere in between Now of course there are exceptions all the time, some components may fail earlier than they should, and [rarely] some components just keep on working. I once ran a 235 that had 39000 hours on it and it still seemed to run as it should. It had its engine rebuilt twice, and its pumps replaced twice, and other things done too. It had about 3000 hours since its last major rebuild.
Thanks Sultan, that's what I was looking for. The only used machines I have looked at or bought in the past have been very low hour (virtually near new) machines but different times call for different plans of action. The highest hour machine i have know is almost 5K on a D5G. Would one of our HEF Cat gurus look up a serial number for the service history on this 315? - CJC 1607 Are there any serial number ranges of the CJC version of the 315 that were troublesome?
Mine is a CJC that was built almost 1000 units before the one you are refering to. The computer recieved a re-flash very early on. I was not experiencing any trouble. It was a product upgrade. I would be interested to know if they have trouble with that series too. I'm already invested though.
I saw a pic of your 315 over in the trailer thread, very nice machine you can tell you take good care of it. Does your machine have a progressive link thumb? I had a Cat progressive link thumb (dealer installed) on a 321CLCR that broke the factory dog bones of the progressive link. After breaking two factory sets the dealer made a set in their machine shop that was beefier and I didn't have any more problems. The majority of the used machines out there are the CJC's and the last two 315's I have owned have been CJC's as well. The 2 CJC's that I had gave me no problems. On Iron Record it lists two other prefixes for 315CL's - ANF and CFT. Anyone know what the differences are between the prefixes, specification wise - hydraulics, booms?
The prefixes usually mean which plant they came from or which production run or time frame in which they were built. The 5,000 hour mark is many times associated with another year of age on the machine more than condition. You can run single shift up to around 2,200 hours a year but small and mid sized excavators usually run 1,000 to 1,500 hours. So 5,000 may be taken as five years of use. I generally see machines with 5,000 hours and somewhat less than stellar maintenance begin to develop the slop in the joints. Undercarriage wear is more how much the machine is walked than any hour meter reading. I've seen them worn out at 4,000 or like new at 8,000 hours. Good Luck!
There are 3 things to look out for. The bucket cylinder piston nut would come loose. This should have been addressed on most machines, less than 3 years and 5000 hours old Cat will replace the cylinder if it comes loose. Boom cracks, check the sides of the boom between the lift cylinders and the base. Again Cat will fix up to 5 years old and 50% up to 8 years old. White smoke at idle, normally in colder climates. The fix was to install a rotary type injection pump. I have only seen a few done on machine with low hours. The other issues they seem to have are the normal repairs seen on other excavators.
Unfortunately my thumb is not progressive link. Nor does it have a proportional valve. It's 100% or nothing. I have adapted but I don't like it that way. I have checked and Cat does not offer a proportional valve until the D series. I know that HKX has them but I'm not sure of the cost. I wanted a progressive link thumb but I was told that they were no longer available, through Cat, at the time I bought the machine. I was quite pissed when I saw a competitors new 315 about a year later. It had a Cat progressive link thumb. The thumb ram has leaked a bit since new. It got bad and was replaced under warranty once. Since then it seems to always leave the rod end wet. I was told that they had issues with the seals being too hard on that ram. I also do not particularly like the hard line routing, of the auxilary circuit, on the top of the boom. If you saw the photos than you see that I often work around trees. The steel tubes are bent to go around the dipper cylinder. They go outside the width of the boom. IMO that's too far. It puts them in harms way. BTW they cost $700 each tube (mine are 1" diameter).
This thread is very interesting and timely for me. Here is a pic of my 315 that I just bought in February. It’s a CFT prefix. I had a 9yb 215 that served me well for 8 years. A guy made me an offer I couldn’t refuse so I sold it. I bought it through the local Cat dealer from Cat Financial. It was located in Washington State, I bought it sight unseen off of the inspection report and had it shipped to Iowa. It had 4900 hours when I got it. I’ve only put about 80 hours on it. No problems other than a blown hose. The inspection report seemed very accurate. Who ever had it before me took good care of it. It looks to me like Cat Financial puts the junky stuff on Iron Planet and sells the better stuff on their web site. This machine was only listed about 3 days when my salesman put a hold on it. Someone else already had a hold on it so our hold was secondary. For whatever reason they didn’t take the machine so I ended up with it. With shipping and tax I ended up with a little over $50k invested. I certainly didn’t steal it but I don’t think I got hurt either. I haven’t seen anything price, age, hours and condition wise before of since that has made me regret my decision. I looked at and passed on a 2001 CJC machine with 6k hrs. It had boom crack problems and repairs. Don’t know all differences between CJC and CFT machines. One thing I have noticed is tin work on hood looks different. It sounds like you are way more experience than I am so I doubt any of this will help, just my experience. Good luck.
Thank you John and Lee. The advice and knowledge of our resident HEF mechanics is invaluable. One of the things that makes HEF a great site is the unbiased evaluation you can get of a machine (ok - other than the die hard fans of a particular brand ) instead of being "sold" on a particular machine because they have that one in stock. DGODGR, I have been looking at a few machines that have progressive thumbs but they are hard to come by used. Most of the machines on the east coast have a foot pedal for the thumb operation which would not work for me. Another question for the mechanical experts, how hard is it to switch a machine from foot pedal thumb operation to a joystick? It doesn't seem to be that big of a project, re-routing the pilot lines to a new joystick? Second question- How big of a job is adding aux hyd to a "bare machine" and are the HKX kits any good? Jimson it's good to hear you had a good buying experience from Cat Fin. I have also been looking at several machines on their yards in WA, TN and NC. Since I would have to ship to AL, I haven't looked that hard at the ones in WA due to the shipping costs. If you don't mind me asking, what % were you able to get off the asking price on your 315? Some of the Cat Fin machines are priced retail or a little above but I have heard that they will deal pretty aggressively if you have cash. It does seem that Cat Fin sends the beaters to IronPlanet. The ones being auctioned out of TN have been in rough shape.
I did'nt have much luck getting them to deal and i did have cash. This was the third cat fin machine i looked at and tried to buy and they wouldnt deal much. I dont know if it was them or the dealer. I dont think the dealer tried very hard on the price when i made an offer. I ended up getting 5% off the asking price. I didnt think the shipping was to bad. I got quotes from most of the shippers listed on I.P. that ranged from $3k of $6k. Used the low quote and it worked out good. My machine had been set up with a cat factory thumb (progessive?). It had been removed when i got it but the brackets were all there. I priced the parts from cat to put it back to the tune of $15k. I ended up putting a stick mount hydraulic thumb on. Not as nice as the cat part but it fit my budget and it seems to work ok. Much better than the stiff arm on old machine. I have the third pedal on the left to run the thumb in and out and also a button on each joystick, one to run it out and one to run it in.
Jimson, what year model is your 315? Thanks for the Cat Fin info.
2002