Hi guys, From my knowledge about C15 engines they are the strongest engine with high torque 2100 at 1800 RPM ,when the engine run at the first time at1800 rpm after 5 minutes I got broken in the crankShaft ..... my question is why I got broken crankShaft occurred in less than 5 minutes while the C15 engines are powerful machines ? Are there spare parts manufactured for different speeds or there is Another defect ? Note: The engine was installed at wheel dozer before moved to generator. Thanks guys
No real answer but if this engine was originally in a wheel dozer and then moved into a generator I would be wondering if it had a problem before it was put in the genset or was there some kind of misalignment in the installation?
First thoughts on crankshaft failure What type of connection to generator stator? Was end play in crankshaft verified at install?
Thank you for your quick responses and interaction with the subject because it is an important theme for everyone.... The engine was working on the generator without any problems with the settings 50 Hz .... with loads of 50% This indicates that the vibration was normal .... But your suspect are true for the CrankShaft .... Because the temp was normal and oil pressure is also normal. ... Who push me to write about this problem was the questions about spare parts manufactured and the flash file Is it related to the strange problem ... Do you think guys the problem was related to the flash file or the spare parts installed ? Thanks guys
HOW was the engine "strapped" when it was moved to the genset?? Did someone put a strap around the crank pulley?? WHAT spare parts were installed?? IF it was a crank shaft, yes it would be "suspect".. I seriously doubt there are different parts for different speeds.. The gen-set "alignment" is first on the suspect list for me.. if it wasn't picked-up by the crank shaft end when it was moved.
Bad ailment wil pull or push the crank. I could see it brakeing the crankshaft if it was all tight. End play on the crank stator would also be a concern. Non oem parts are not allways direct a replacement.
Not clear on one thing, was this an engine rebuilt an an aftermarket crankshaft was installed? Another question would be where did the crankshaft break? Any chance of uploading some pictures of the crankshaft with nice clear picture of the broken area? It is hard for me to see where a "flash file" could cause a failure in only five minutes with engine only running at half rated output.
Guys, The genset rebuilt and aftermarket and the failure was with out load at the first 5 min about the OEM parts so I don't know if it was orginal crank shaft or not. The Broken side at the last shaft alternator side plus the damage of 5.fix 6.7 the moving parts. Thanks
About ailment was fine because at 50Hz no vibration.
Not sure about that statement. Vibration would make me think out of balance, but a mis-alignment could be putting bending loads on crank shaft even if everything was in balance. Again pictures of the damaged parts would get much better opinions.
Im sure you can have bad alinement between the to shafts and not have a noticable vibe... @StanRUS whats your thought.
5 minute failure, no load.....I’m not sure alignment would do that unless it was waaaaaaay off. I’m leaning toward incorrect engine assembly, an engine that was claimed to be OH’d or parts that weren’t compatible. It is possible that it’s aligned dead on and just pushing or pulling the crank and thus wiping out the thrust bearing.... At this point pics are worth thousands of words. Plus some measurements....a man with a tape measure is worth more than a thousand expert opinions.
Thanks All For Your interaction The guy who going to teardown the crank shft ,He will send to me the pictures and I will upload them. Guys do you think the running hours will make like this problem .
Can't agree strongly enough on these points. Not seeing what the "broken in the crankShaft" really means. Could be some important information is not coming through the translation or there is a miss communication from the guy with hands and eyes on the engine and the poster of this thread. Not trying to fault anyone here just that when I story goes through too many hands the real problem can turn out to be totally different than what it sounded like at first. Not suggesting it's the case here but what if engine came out of a truck that was in a bad accident and the crank took a big hit on the front end but still turned over good and was assumed to be a good running take out?
Have seen a hydraulic pump bolted on with a fibre coupling drive that the splines were not lined up . Took the end play right out of the Detroit Diesel 453 Camshaft drive and spun a bearing. Who knows if something was not forced together and the fun begins. Simon
I don’t know about anyone else but I am struggling to get my head around how an electronic engine from a wheel dozer (834H I imagine) that works at anything between idle and 2100 can be made to run at a constant 1800rpm on a gen set working against a varying electrical load without major surgery. If it was an mechanical injection engine with a Woodward governor on it then the story would be very different. This installation appears to me to have “lash up” written all over it. I may be wrong, but I’d say that if it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.
6 cyl inline @ 50Hz could be the natural balance frequency and the flex-plate taking up the mis-alignment= flexing. Applying load creating bending moments, bang, bang 5-minutes, something VERY WRONG Was the Bellhousing changed? Flywheel? Does the Generator have rear engine mount instead of engine bellhousing? ECM for genset or 834 ECM reflashed? Pictures would help
Hi guys, In the beginning Thank you All for the good conversation,I really surprised when the mechanic call me and said the Crankshaft broken .... something unbelievable that C15 the King of Hill got broken problem with less than 5 minutes run at 60 Hz. I went down to get some pictures and I found the lower shell-bearing was damaged and the bearing cap with damaged Crankshaft and connecting rod of piston No.6 After dismantled the bearing cap the engine rotating freely
mante, C15 Cat Gen-Set like the picture? Or similar Aftermarket parts. Like IPT pistons, liners, rings, main-rod bearings? Original engine serial number? Flash file number? Cracked crankshaft, slight vibration Broken Crankshaft 3hr usage, wrong pistons, truck engine C15 engines are not all the same.
Yes, With silencer.... Engine No. JRE07538 The dealer told me that was installed at wheel dozer .. If you Have SIS could you please check if it was ?
Engine Serial Number JRE07538 does not associate with a machine in SIS C15 JRE07538 Arrangement 241-0020 BUILT DATE 02/04/2008 TEST DATE 06/04/2008, SHIP DATE-unknown AS BUILT C15 DTI11 OLD-C15 ACERT DIT ATAAC IND11 MWCODEA - PRIMARY DRIVE HP00475 - 475BHP (354BKW) W/O FAN PR-5367 475 BHP WOF 2100RPM (B) MISINDOE - INDURTRIAL/OEM CERTIF5 EPA/CARB TIER3 / EC STAGE 111A Parts List does show Air Compressor Group, so the engine could have been installed in a wheel dozer. Question to answer : Why did number 6 connecting rod bearings fail? Were Main bearings shells installed upside down? Shutting off oil flow to the #6 connecting rod bearings. Regardless if Non-OEM parts were used to rebuild the engine, IF the parts were installed wrong the engine will have a failure.
241-0020 is an engine arrangement that is used in 2 different applications. It is not, and never has been, a machine engine. 1. TH35-C151 Petroleum Power Train package. engine Serial Numbers JRE00001-Up. 2. C15 Industrial Engine Serial Numbers JRE00106-Up Power specifications for both the above options are as Stan quoted above. Torque is quoted as 1817 ft lbs @ 1400RPM. The thing that jumps out at me is that the engine is rated @ 2100 RPM maximum but with an external throttle control input to run it at any RPM between Low Idle and 2100. So my question is how have the electronics on it been frigged to make it run at a constant 1800 RPM independent of imposed electrical load to operate a 60-cycle generator set..?
I spoke To the guy who incharge to buy the spare parts and he said one Set of connecting rod bearing not OEM... maybe on No 6 was Installed.
There is an original switchable flash file for 50/60 Hz caterpillar for C15. Thanks
If possible remove number 6 and 7 main bearing caps and check if the bearing shells are installed correctly. 2 and 4 bolt connecting rods were used with 3406-C15 engines. Software file (flash file) used was for Cat Gen-Set with C15? You used the existing Gen-Set electronic control panel and existing wiring? Control panel to ECM 50/60Hz speed control switches etc?
We start doing that .... About the flash file yes, it is About the ECM and the panle plus the wiring yes the existing .... But I set All the data and parameters to the 60 Hz.... The wiring no need to change ... Thanks
I think the failure was mechanical > #6 connecting rod bearing failure. (NOT ELECTRONIC CONTROL ISSUE) Wrong bearing used or assembly procedure etc. Correct Standard rod bearing #2243246 Connecting Rod #2243245 4-bolts 60mm tapered pin ECM flashed for Gen-Set and using the existing electronic control panel +wiring should work okay. Nige, using the existing Gen-Set electronics + wiring looms. I do not have access to TMI or Gen-Set original engine serial # / arrangement #. I would like to know if the turbo, exhaust manifold, static timing etc is compatible between the original engine and replacement. EDIT : Gen-Set pdf shows 16.1:1 compression ratio / SIS shows 2292863 piston-rod group 18:1 for replacement engine AND GEN-SET Governor type = Caterpillar ADEM control system mante , do you have original engine serial # arrangement # and Gen-Set serial number? CAT EMCP 4 Series Contro l (standard) EMCP 4 controls including: - Run / Auto / Stop Control - Speed and Voltage Adjust - Engine Cycle Crank - 24-volt DC operation - Environmental sealed front face - Text alarm/event descriptions Digital indication for: - RPM - DC volts - Operating hours - Oil pressure (psi, kPa or bar) - Coolant temperature - Volts (L-L & L-N), frequency (Hz) ETC / example random from 8ea different 60Hz Export C15 Gen-Sets http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10059397 - Amps (per phase & average) - ekW, kVA, kVAR, kW-hr, %kW, PF (4.2 only)
Ar No: 241-0020
The original engine arrangement was #241-0020?
Yes
Correct compression ratio 16.1:1 Arrangement #2410020 Serial #JER01516 has air compressor and transmission oil cooler --> OV-1590 PETRO OIL SERVICING https://www.powersystemstoday.com/l...75/2006-caterpillar-c15-stationary-generators Good Used CAT C15 Industrial Engine 2006 Model – 0 Hours Since In-Frame Overhaul 7211 Original Hours Engine Model: C15 DITA AAAC Engine S/N: JRE01516 Arrangement/CPL #: 241-0020 Test Spec: 0K4921 Performance Spec: DM7707 Engine HP: 540 Engine RPM: 2100 Governor: ADEM Air Cleaner:
mante, Serial # JRE07538 AR#241-0020 SIS shows compression ratio 18:1 10R6007 CYL PACK GP or 229-2863 Cylinder Packs SELD0080-13 PISTON 241-6123 ROD 224-3245 CYL LINER 197-9322 PISTON PIN 180-7350 LONG BLOCK GP 20R0844 / MAX-540HP 2100RPM, ADEM-4 TORQUE CHECK SPEED 1400RPM / 1601LB-FT Checking Rod Bearings SENR9842-9 DOUBLE CHECK IF 18:1 CR IS CORRECT FOR GEN-SET APPLICATION
C15 truck engines break the cranks at the last main bearing journal , from what i have researched on that for truck engines it is due to the silicone filled dampers not being changed at 500k miles . Am i correct or is that info i found just from people triing to sell parts
Stan, that engine may be listed in the link as a "stationary generator set" engine but when you look at the detailed description in the link it is described as an Industrial Engine (which is correct), not a generator set engine. There are a total of 27 different C15 engine Serial Number options for generator set use, but engines of JRE-prefix are not included in that list. The JRE-prefix C15 engine appears in a different list on SIS as one of seven different S/N prefixes of C15 Industrial Engine.
Nige, Yes Sir, that is why I cannot compare parts [piston-compression ratio, exhaust manifold-turbo] without the Gen-Set original engine serial number . OR Gen-Set serial number to identify correct engine assembly-group, arrangement number. Detective story PowerSystems list has one Gen-Set with JRE serial engine / arrangement 241-0020, but hydraulic-mechanical governor. Additional guessing Most damper related crank breakage occurs @ 1st crank-arm (front of engine). C15s (all engines per manufactures' guidelines) on-highway engines should have the fluid-damper changed @ 500 miles or per manufactures' recommendation. Newer engines are operating at lower rpm with higher torques that create increased vibration amplitude (twisting, springing back and forth). Copied from the professionals: Implementing sophisticated turbo charging systems, high pressure fuel injection and computer controlled optimized combustion techniques to rigorously reduce nitrogen oxide (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) by raising cylinder mean effective pressure in turn generates greater torsional vibration amplitude at the crankshaft. Replacement cost: less than one penny per mile @ $1K-500K = 0.002 walkerv, to continue your' research start below with the inventor of torsional viscous dampers http://blog.vibratechtvd.com/blog/an-early-history-of-the-torsional-viscous-damper How does it work http://blog.vibratechtvd.com/blog/how-does-a-viscous-damper-work Viscous Dampers: Evolving To Meet New Needs & Applications http://info.vibratechtvd.com/viscous-dampers-new-needs-and-applications Enjoy the weekend
StanRus, I think you have a typo in that last post! "on-highway engines should have the fluid-damper changed @ 500 miles or per manufactures' recommendation." I'm thinking you meant to type "500K miles"? Or one would be stocking a pallet of dampers on each truck!
Agree 100%. Maybe the best way to attack this is to get the generator Serial Number. If the complete unit was kosher from the get-go (as opposed to being home-brewed) then a generator Serial Number would lead to the original engine S/N and arrangement #. So far what we can say without fear of contradiction is that the replacement engine is not from a wheel dozer. It got me thinking a bit - C15 Wheel Dozer engines are equipped with a compression brake. Not much use for one of those on a gen set..........
Hi all, This No Can help *CAT00000JC5L00792*
Can i get the engine family from those Nos you have guys Thanks
mante, Working on that C15 -- C5L00792 C15 Generator Set (50Hz) Media Number - SEBP4324-39 Date Updated - 16/09/2015 [Publication Date 01/09/15] 287-3361 GENERAL AR-GENSET S/N C5L1-UP 400/550 KVA 50 HERTZ. 0.8 FAN RATIO 286-4914 ENGINE ARRANGEMENT COMPLETE S/N FFH218-UP; FTH1-UP PART OF 287-3361, 329-2993 GENERAL AR-GENSET 287-3363 * GENERAL AR-GENSET S/N C5L1-UP 350/550 EKW 60 HERTZ @ 1800 RPM. 0.8 FAN RATIO 286-4916 ENGINE ARRANGEMENT COMPLETE SHORT BLOCK 20R-0769 note: same for both engine arrangements ___________________________________________ 284-2777 TURBOCHARGER GP S/N FFH1-UP; FTH1-UP, FFJ1-UP; FTJ1-UP 50 HERTZ ALSO AN ATTACHMENTS 01/0/2015 [AS BUILT] 332-7297 CAMSHAFT / 10R-7157 ___________________________________________ 252-0652 PISTON & ROD GP S/N FFH1-UP; FTH1-UP; FFJ1-UP; FTJ1-UP 16:1 COMPRESSION RATIO < 10R-7172 CYLINDER PACK AS ___________________________________________ mante, C15 INDUSTRIAL ENGINE Serial JRE07538 per SIS specifications has the wrong pistons-compression ratio @ 18:1. Different Turbocharger Group and Exhaust Manifold Group
Original switchable flash file for 50/60 Hz Cat C15? > For the GEN-SET ARRANGEMENT NUMBER 287-3361 Serial # C5L00792 ??? Engine Arrangement 286-4914 ??? If the Flash File is correct for the Gen-Set AR 287-3361 (Generator AR 235-1211) and Engine AR 286-4914 per SIS > C5L00792 serial number, that Flash File will not work correctly with current damaged Engine Serial #JRE07538 because of the incorrect piston-compression ratio 18:1 and different turbocharger group, exhaust manifold group. Local Cat dealer your area? Have dealer look up additional information using (MTI) Manufacturing Technical Information-WEBSITE.
I'm assuming here (a big ask I know, but bear with me) but I think that when the OP is referring to a "50/60Hz switchable file" he is referring to the electronics in the control side of the electrical generator part of the unit, not the engine. See the illustration below. In the engine ECM (circled red) there is a flash file that controls fuel injection, timing, boost, and a whole host of other parameters. From the C5L00792 Serial Number for the generator Stan has identified that the original Engine Arrangement for the genset in question was a 286-4916 (the S/N of that engine was FFH01045) and that there are significant differences between 286-4916 and 241-0020 including, but not limited to, pistons and turbocharger. I discovered that the fuel injectors are also different which is not surprising. So my point is, what ECM does the replacement engine currently have installed..? The ECM from the original genset engine, or the ECM from the 241-0020 replacement engine..? If it is the ECM from the original genset then the performance of the engine will be adversely affected. It will run after a fashion, but the major differences in iron between the two engines means that it will never run right ......... Another piece of information. The original genset must have been a 50Hz generator, because engine S/N FFH01045 was dyno tested at 1500 RPM and produced 605 BHP. In comparison engine S/N JRE07538 is rated at 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM.
Hi This pic can help for investigation if can go to 60hz
Yes,With original ECM FFH01045
Your 1st post.......... Question - "This pic can help for investigation if can go to 60hz..?" Answer - No. The data on this plate is all related to the engine. It has no relation to the electrical power put out by the generator. The 50Hz or 60Hz selection is all controlled in the generator controls, not in the engine. I am not an electrical expert but I always thought that a generator set was configured for either 50Hz (1500 RPM) or 60HZ (1800 RPM) and it was not possible to switch between the two, especially with an electronic engine like this C15. Generator set C5L00792 was built as a 50Hz set and I don't think it's possible to run it at 60Hz without major electrical modifications in the generator end. Nothing to do with the engine. Your 2nd post........... In my opinion you have major problems. You are trying to control engine S/N JRE07539 (built for 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM) using an electronic control taken from engine S/N FFH01045 (605 BHP @ 1500 RPM). I can't say it any other way or put it any stronger - THIS WILL NOT and CANNOT WORK ........!! The reason it will not work is because of the different pistons, turbocharger, and fuel injectors in engine JRE07539 compared to what was in engine S/N FFH01045. In addition I do not see it EVER working unless engine JRE07539 is disassembled and rebuilt using the correct Part Numbers of piston, turbocharger, and fuel injector for engine FFH01045. There may be other major parts that also require replacement but I have not investigated yet.
mante, Answer NO. Engine JRE07538 / 241-0020 AR *using* ECM software flash file for engine # FFH01045 will not run correctly @ 50 or 60Hz. Also JRE07538 / 241-0020 *using* original software flash file as 'industrial engine @ 2100RPM-475BHP' will not run correctly to power Gen-Set @ 1500/50Hz or 1800/60Hz. ___________________________________________ mante, I am looking at 2 desktop monitors and typing SIS information from 1 monitor-SIS into this reply below. ___________________________________________ Gen-Set per serial #C5L00792 / 287-3361 AR AS BUILT Model: C15 GENERATOR SET C5L00792 ENGINE - ENTIRE GROUP (C5L00792) FEATURE CODES C15 415/240V 50 HZ PKG GEN L8 LO BSFC = Low Brake Specific Fuel Consumption DK2126 = EMCP 3.2 CONTROL PANEL 550KVA W/FAN STANDBY POWER APPLICATION 800 AMPS 5N-9582 = LOW BSFC STRATEGY 290-6339 = RADIATOR GP DK1212 = REAR MOUNTED POWER CENTER 240-0484 = PANEL GR-ELECTRONIC OV-1065 = END USE: GENERAL ELECTRIC POWER GEN OP-7824 = DOMESTIC PACK-EXPORT CONTAINER OP-9618 = PACK FOR AIR FREIGHT PP5586 = 668 BHP 456 GEN KW WOF 50 HZ S OK-7108 = 498 KW (668 BHP) @ 1500 RPM 9Y-8156 = STAMP FOR STANDBY POWER 254-6314 = ELECTRONICS GP-GENERATOR SET note: some items listed left out ___________________________________________ Industrial engine JRE07538 is designed to operate from 0 to 2100RPMs = varying loads and power output requirements. Gen-Set engine FFH01045 is designed to operate @ 50Hz 1500RPM = constant load 'with small electronic adjustments' required to maintain 50Hz-1500 caused by electrical usage demands = varying electrical usage like turning on a electric motor, air conditioner etc. Gen-Sets are similar to GE electric engine dynamometers that measure torque loading. 'Constant load' = constant torque/hp. *Different piston-compression ratio 18:1 JRE engine with FFH engine flash file, different turbo, different exhaust manifold, different injectors will cause...high exhaust gas temperatures {cracked pistons, damaged valves}, wrong torque/hp output, high/low turbo rpms, high/low intake manifold pressure/boost etc. Shortening engine service hour life OR short run time to failure/damage. To resolve/correct the problem will require using the correct engine parts for Gen-Set application per FFH01045 / 286-4914 AR specifications. AR 287-3363 60Hz @ 1800 = Emergency KW (EKW) Can you change rating from Standby to Prime? I do not know. I'll check Turbo info to compare cartridge numbers (FFH=255-5477) and Turbo hot-side turbine numbers (AR ratios). Later
Stan, I've just done some more digging comparing the two engine arrangements. The following major power-producing items are all different: - 1. Cylinder Block 2. Crankshaft 3. Connecting Rods & Pistons 4. Camshaft 5. Valve mechanism 6. Fuel injectors 7. Turbocharger Basically the only thing the two engine arrangements have in common is "C15" marked on the valve covers.
Nige, I work on generators for a living although smaller than this size, but not a whole lot smaller. Most/all generator ends of this size are dual rated at 50/60 Hz. There will be some minor adjustments to the voltage regulator but that is it. The mechanical difference is that it spins 1500 RPM vs 1800 RPM. This is done all the time on generators destined for different markets. I have been following this thread and the question I have is that if he were to put the correct ECM on the existing engine and set it to run 1800 RPM, assuming the engine/ECM has the power characteristics needed at that slightly reduced RPM I do not see why it could not work. This assumes that the governor routine inside the correct software for this arrangement could control the engine speed tightly enough to maintain 1800 RPM +/- 50 or so under most load conditions. I just don't see how a generator load profile would be very much different than an industrial engine could work with.
All this is way over my pay grade, but I agree with BirkenV, the wrong arrangement/parts is the difference between 1,000 hours and 10,000 hours to failure, this failed at 5 minutes. That has to be something screwed up in the rebuild. The only damage I could see from mismatched engine/program is if the timing was way too early (at low or no load, and in only minutes). The question I'd like to know: was this 5 minutes at idle? that is, 1,800 RPM with no load on the generator? What did the oil pressure do in that time? was it primed before starting?
I'll start by saying that I had limited genset experience and what I did have was limited to some dinosaurs like D379, D398, D399 along with a 3508 of very early version then a little 3306, nothing with ECM's that's for sure! So I can't begin to give an opinion on how one or the other of the C-15 engines being talked about would work under load. I'm just having a problem understanding what was so wrong with the engine that caused the original failure in what was claimed to be five minutes running at very low or no load at all! This is starting to remind me of some of the headaches I got involved in with a boss who had the idea that if a truck had a dog standing on the front then everything behind it was interchangeable with any other truck with that puppy up front! I have the feeling that mante has been boxed into a corner and not getting any real help from management or dealer at his end. I just hope he understands that the various people here are doing their best to help him in this problem
Delmer, I.m typing with one hand in a splint so you beat me to much of what I was trying to put in words! I know these electronic controlled engines are much different than say an old 3306 DI engine but I worked on one of those an one of us managed to time the injection pump to #6 instead of #1 and it started and ran for close to five minutes while we tried to figure out why it sounded so sick. Once we figured it out and retimed it right it ran fine with no lasting effects!
1) Op did use correct ECM on the existing engine; software won't correct for different engine hard parts. 2) 18:1 compression ratio (current engine) versus 16:1 (used on Gen-Set C15s-I checked) is a major difference; liner ledge will pound out (I machine liner ledges constantly on O/O hopped up trucks); pistons will have damaged crowns letting gases destroy the top rings; leading to massive blow-by; scored liners...list can go on. 3) JRE industrial engines max HP rating are 534BHP; Gen-Set over 600BHP; large fueling difference from the injectors/software. 4) OP changing from Standby? (unknown) to Prime would require altering the Gen-Set electronic controls/controller and changing Gen-Set fan to 0.9 IMO, not economically practical, option partly based upon small contractors attempting to save money purchasing truck C15s for repowering off-road equipment; that will not work ...wrong pistons, rods, crankshafts, camshafts etc. OT: Hess engineers altered algorithms used on Dossan natural gas engine controllers...Co-generation. Result 55gal drums full of discarded coils-spark plugs; fried cylinder heads, blown engines. Resolving the problem required using German designed engine controller (total ignition system) and upgrading the generator controller. My point; very small variations (micro seconds) in operating parameters can cause major engine damage. Couple major corporation mangers in my area were 'terminated' for getting involved with Cogeneration; hyped by Calif's go-greener rebate programs. Every honest-dishonest commissioned engine salesmans' dream. Fuel Cells; almost totally free installation, when the 'stack' requires replacement; out of service. Gas-turbines; won't operate correctly @ higher inland ambient temps. S.Cal. Gas $20K rebate, Edison $20K rebate to put 2 co-gen engines back service: Customer has $1.7million invested in a system that started out being FREE. My decision, tax write off and collect dust. I feel for mante, unfortunate position to be in.
I meant mechanical As 1800 RPM ... the Alternator already done As 3 phase 460V Not with original Flash file for engine S/N FFH01045 ... I re-flash the ECM with one for 1800 RPM 60HZ switch able not using the original Flash file .... it should be work normal Let us supposes with empty ECM and flash it with switch able parameters 1800 HZ and 1500 HZ .... in my opinion same just I used the original ECM As hardware with different flash file .
Birken, thanks very much for your insight. I held up my hand earlier and said I was not a genset man. My comments are more related to how this plant could be made to operate reliably long-term, not the fact that it failed a crank after 5 minutes, although there may be a relationship between the two. Here are the issues as I see them. 1. The original genset appears as though it was built to produce 50Hz power because the engine was dyno tested at 1500 RPM. To confirm that when I put the Serial Number in to the system the title appears as "C15 Generator Set (50Hz) C5L00792" 2. I may be wrong, but I would bet good money that a 60Hz genset producing the same electrical output would be a different Serial Number prefix to the C5L of the existing set. That would make it difficult to find service information regarding the correct flash software file to use in the ECM in order to command the engine to run at a constant 1800 RPM, and that's without even considering how to get factory passwords for the software and Interlock Code changes required. Been there, done that, in a previous life and the hoops to jump through are even more difficult today. 3. The arrangement of the replacement engine procured by the OP to replace the original contains so many major different iron parts (refer post #47 above) I'm afraid I can't see how it could reliably be made to produce 605 BHP @ 1800 RPM when the "donor engine" only produced 475 BHP when built. Added to that, the 475 BHP was at 2100 RPM, so if the engine was required to run at 1800 RPM I imagine the power it developed would surely be even less than 475.
I must be honest and say that I have never come across an engine that had "switchable" RPM parameters between 1500 & 1800 RPM before. There's always a first time though. Can you tell us what Part Number of Flash File you have installed in the engine ECM right now..?
Not with original Flash file for engine S/N FFH01045
NO, JRE engine still has wrong hard parts, turbo, pistons etc https://www.cat.com/en_US/articles/configurations/ep-genset-ratings/c15-acert.html Look @ any of the pdf files. All engines have 16:1 compression ratio. mante, is the ECM flash code CAT? OR custom?
Yes, you are right I feel that ,all of you doing the best to help me ... thanks
So generator is modified-rebuilt for 3 phase 460V @ 1800rpm? And you want use the Gen-Set rated as Prime power? In my opinion you will need to use Engine AR and ECM software rated as Prime power @ 1800rpm 3 phase 460V. Not to confuse you; FFH01-up list Gen-Set AR 287-3363 60Hz @ 1800rpm EKV (emergency rating). Engine 'short-block' is the same as 286-4914 / FFH01045.
No, the owner want 460V and it was 400v 3 phase nothing to do with Alternator just AVR change the jumper to 60HZ and Adjust voltage,that all
I agree with all that that you numbers wizards have posted about HP and arrangements and all that. I don't have access to any of that. I must admit I skimmed over most of the horsepower numbers and that is where my fault lies. I was suggesting that if the engine did not have a broken crankshaft, and the throttle input could be manipulated to make it lock at 1800 RPM (there are aftermarket devices that do this if the existing throttle input is not "stiff" enough for a generator) that I can't see why an industrial engine could live a long and happy life as a generator prime mover. Running a generator at 1800 RPM cannot be much different than running a sawmill or water pump or rock crusher or what have you. I agree that if the engine was built for 475 @ 2100 then on a straight line it might only have 407 HP which is a far cry from what it originally came with. But maybe that is all they need? The generator head does not take any more power to drive than the electrical loads that are placed upon it and he said 50% load near the beginning here so it may have worked out if the engine did not decide to come apart.
mante, C15 GEN-SET (50HZ) Media Number: SEBP4324-39 287-3363 GENERAL AR-GENSET S/N C5L1-UP **350/550 EKW 60 HERTZ @ 1800RPM. 0.8 FAN RATIO 286-4916 ENGINE AR-COMPLETE 20R-0769 SHORT BLOCK 164-4637 MANIFOLD GP-EXHAUST >SAME AS FFH01045 284-2777 TURBO GR > SAME AS FFH01045 252-0652 PISTON-ROD GR > SAME AS FFH01045 note: ALL C15s 50/60Hz use 16:l:1 compression ratio new example 60Hz @ 1800 http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/21364091 CAT: Prime – Output available with varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70% of the prime power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of prime rated ekW with 10% overload capability for emergency use for a maximum of 1 hour in 12. Overload operation cannot exceed 25 hours per year. eKw = kW , kilowatts, or sometimes kWm, kilowatts mechanical, refers to the power output from an engine driving a generator set or, in other words, the mechanical power driving the generator. To avoid confusion, the electrical output from the generator is often referred to as kWe (or ekW) which is the actual generator output after efficiency losses within the generator. Electrical power is usually measured in Watts (W) or thousands of Watts (kilowatts, kWe). kWe is sometimes referred to as “real power” while kVA (kilovolt-amperes) is apparent power For three phase circuits: Volts x 1.73 x Amperes ÷ 1,000 = kVA Software Flash File use per engine serial number/AR CATERPILLAR GENERATORS >ALL SIZES page 7 all C15s @ 60Hz 1800rpm https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/LEXE7582-05_Hi-res I am checking C18s by serial numbers on hand 'for compression ratio / single turbo apps
Cannot work on CAT without service tool >CAT ET ET loaded on junker 64bit laptop Win7-10 $70.00 (bootleg license) plus newest COMM 3 adapter approx $800.00 from local Cat dealer. COMM 3 also work with Cummins Insite (requires setting in preferences) CAT ADEM engine controls pdf
Per OP 5 OEM rod bearings and 1 Non-OEM bearing suspected @ #6 journal failure.
OK gents, I think I may have come up with something. The following is not intended to address the crankshaft failure in the OP's replacement engine (some photos from the failure would be nice), but to highlight what would need to be done to make a specific C15 generator set built for 50Hz power produce 60Hz power instead. As I suspected when I replied to Birken Vogt earlier, there are two different Cat Serial Number prefixes for C15 generator sets of identical electrical output, one operating at 50Hz, the other at 60Hz. Unfortunately it's not like the old days when everything was the same Serial Number range and you simply frigged around with the settings of a Woodward governor to obtain the required engine speed. The OP’s generator set is Serial Number C5L00792, built 14/Mar/2007. This set originally consisted of engine Serial # FFH01045 and generator Serial # L6B06597. When built, the set was designed to run at 1500 RPM and produce 50Hz power. The equivalent C15 generator set for 60Hz power is Serial # prefix C5E. I pulled up a set of this arrangement built around the same time. Serial Number C5E00819, built 13/Mar/2007, engine # FSE01040, generator # G6B10842. I do not know, and cannot find out, what the difference is between the two generators Serial # L6B06597 and G6B10842. I don't have access to Power Systems information. I understand that it is a relatively simple matter to change the output voltage of the generator from 380->400->460->500 or whatever simply by repositioning jumper bars in the generator end. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Power comparisons of the two engines : - Advertised Power 605 BHP @ 1500 vs 619 BHP @ 1800 Corrected Full Load Dyno Power 625 BHP @ 1500 RPM vs 642 BHP @ 1800 RPM Engine Arrangement – 286-4914 vs 286-4922 Physical differences between the two engines : - Turbo – 284-2777 vs 284-2776 Software – 257-3201 vs 259-6239. Note: The latest (2018) version of the 259-6239 software is 463-3919. So in summary to go from a 50Hz (1500 RPM) set to a 60Hz (1800 RPM) set provided the original engine was in good shape would be nothing more than to change the software and install a replacement turbo. In the case of the turbo it’s not as simple as just changing the cartridge, the impeller & turbine housings are also different.
^^^^^^^^ Having said all the above ^^^^^^^^ As I see it the problem the OP is facing is not simply one of replacing a turbo and changing some software in the engine ECM to make the original engine in the set operate at 1800 RPM instead of at 1500 RPM. He has (and I can't stress this enough) a totally different configuration of engine whose major hard parts were never designed to produce or sustain 600+ BHP, even for short periods. they were only designed for maximum 475 BHP @ 2100 RPM, so even less than that at 1800 RPM. To replace all those hard parts with the correct ones would IMHO be more expensive than purchasing an engine of the correct arrangement, or at least an engine closer to the correct arrangement. Refer to my post #47 on Page 3. Note that the list in that post is not exhaustive, it only contains the major big-dollar items, there are probably a lot more besides.
Birken, you may be right on the money. However the problem us Cat guys have is that all we have ready access to is "standard configurations" so to speak. When it comes into the realm of customized speed controls, etc, it's a whole other ball game. Also these electronic engines are at such a level of sophistication as regards their controls that it would need someone with far more smarts than myself to figure out just exactly how to control the replacement engine. It would be totally unreasonable to expect a standard Cat software of whatever Part Number to do the job. There's a lot to be said for keeping things standard, if for no other reason than it makes it super-easy to get parts in the future when whoever did the modification has long gone from the job site and nobody has a clue what's actually in the engine......
I was aware of seeing that but just the fact that the bearing that failed came in a box without CAT in big letters on it does not, to me at least, explain the failure. Now if it was found that the bearing was installed wrong, say blocking an oil passage or it was not the right design for the rod it was installed in that would be a different story! While for many reasons I would prefer OEM bearings and parts I'm sure there are non-OEM bearings that are as good as the CAT branded ones.
I suspect mechanics' error, overlooking non-OEM bearing's 'something'; but without photos I am guessing. Non-OEM bearing could have wrong bearing crush; determined by out-of-roundness per design. I prefer non-OEM bearings for many Cat applications> Clevite, now marketed by Mahle. Crankshaft journal loading; C15s, C18s, C27-V8, C32-V12 use the same connecting rods, rod bearings and same rod journal sizes; piston pins. IMO, OP engine's failure is not related to crankshaft-rod journal overloading. Changing from 1500 to 1800rpm moves torque/hp curve upwards reducing internal loading/stresses; like truck engines, splitting 1 gear or downshifting. Owner/Operator 3406-C-series engine hopped up truckers can't drive their rigs in the rpm as designed, they have to keep the revs up or replace hard parts more frequently. Cat Platinum Kit for 6cyl $28K. OP engine: Different compression ratios 'pops out' for me; huge difference 16.1:11 turbo for 3 cylinders into Y-center section manifold; compression ratio 14.5:11000Hp marine camshaft 332-7303 {1309710} Tier 4 off-road C15,18s use 17:1 compression ratio. My last 98 glider Pete-Heavy Haul; KTA700 single turbo, higher compression ratio pistons 14.7:1 used(retarded static injection timing); designed for oil rigs not on-highway trucks. PT-pump: AFC controlled via in cab air switch>off drag truck power>on snap-idle test. Money marker? NO, replaced with C18 by current owner. @ Nige, Thank you for the excellent summary. Without MTI-web access using SIS trying to compare different engine hard parts or electronics is frustrating. Repowering 988F to 988G Tier3 engine configuration is almost like OP's engine ordeal; I use customer's Cat subscription laptop with MTI-web for researching. All Cat parts except radiator core, some modified, custom hoses and custom built hydraulic pump; mission accomplished. Start with C15-D8T bellhousing for the pump drive,then invent. CARB issues grant$ for weird repower$ for example 824B value $8-15K>$156K for repowering an oil leaking @ hydraulic tank headache. But repowering playing the system is a money maker, LOL End of rant
I agree with all posts , it seems to me the engine was not from the beginning to be installed at GENSET . But The C15 - JRE07538 it can run at 1800 rpm If it was in good condition and OEM spare parts. Tell me guys If I'm wrong
I'm not the Cat expert but I say it should be able to run at 1800 RPM at somewhere around 250 kWe. (eKw)
Yes , Same my Opinion ..... may be more than 250 I think close to 350 eKW
Birken Vogt, your' money/warranty; how many hours of unknown type of operation does your written warranty cover? 250eKw = 335Hp @ 1800rpm = 977lb/ft gross 350eKw = 470Hp @ 1800rpm = 1372lb/ft gross >more power than new C15 vehicular-industrial engine designed to run between 800 to 2100 rpm > advertised net/gross horsepower @1800rpm. Please Read & Think / Not wishful thinking http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10059394
Stan, I should have shown my work a little more. 475 HP @ 2100 RPM would translate to around 407 HP @ 1800 RPM if torque is completely flat between those two RPM, who knows if it really is. You posted HeavyEquipmentForums Original engine 668 BHP / 456 kWe @ 1500 RPM (1.46 BHP per kWe which seems normal to me with parasitics and efficiency) Current engine [assumed, we don't have this data] 407 BHP @ 1800 RPM divided by 1.46 = 278 kWe. Call it 250 kWe to leave some margin for any mismatch. 350 kWe is full power of the current engine at full 2100 RPM without any losses anywhere, not realistic. Is there any documentation of what the JRE engine would produce at 1800 RPM? Again, if you direct coupled the JRE to a water pump or sawmill where it was REQUIRED to run at 1800 RPM because the machinery attached requires that RPM, it should be running within spec should it not? If at a little bit reduced power rating from full 2100?
Can it be made to run at 1800 rpm..? Yes it can. A better question might be “will it run correctly at 1800 rpm..?” The problem is with your Flash File. The FF that you have installed assumes that the engine is built using the correct internal iron to produce 600+ BHP @ 1800 RPM. Your engine is only mechanically capable of producing around 400 BHP @ 1800 RPM. Lots of parameters in the FF (such as the fuel injection timing) will not match what is physically in the engine. That the engine can run at 1800 RPM is not the issue, it’s how well it will run. My thought is that it will run like the proverbial “bag of bolts”. If I can draw a parallel that might make better sense, it’s like taking the electronic control from a 357 V8 car engine from a high-performance version of a certain brand of automobile and without making any iron changes expecting that same electronic box of tricks to control a 357 engine of the same brand making just over half the power, based on the fact that they are “both 357’s”......
Birken, unfortunately there is no data on what the JRE engine would produce at 1800 rpm.
In my above post, I was also assuming he would install the correct flash file/ECM for the JRE engine. Then cobble together whatever governing system would make it run at 1800 RPM. Do we know what sort of variable speed control the JRE engine is looking for and how it works? Operator throttle or whatever? I know it sounds hack but it really does work. Aftermarket governors can be set up for direct rack control if that is available to them, or secondarily they can act upon the throttle arm of a variable speed governor. (Or electronic equivalent) (Even a physical linkage to an electronic hand throttle could be made to work) At a steady load state, assuming a VSG like found on the usual industrial engine, the "operator throttle" as I am going to call it will be at a certain position and never move. Drop a heavy load on it and the engine might droop back a few dozen RPM, and the aftermarket governor will see it is no longer at 1800 and advance the "operator throttle" a little bit to compensate and bring it back to 1800. Remove the load and the opposite will happen. Not nearly as tight as a direct rack controlling governor, but close enough. This was already a "close enough" sort of job to begin with, installing a different engine on the genset. If they wanted full factory everything, then they would have bought the right engine/parts as listed above to make it a factory 1800 configuration. If somebody came to me with this kind of job, assuming the engine was not already broken, I would take it, but time and materials only with the understanding that it might be easy or it might be more difficult, but not likely impossible, but speed control might not be 100% tight.
I get your point. The issue with this being an electronic engine is that there is no mechanical rack to control, every input into the engine ECM comes in the form of an electronic signal. Parameters such as injection timing and duration are all controlled by electronic output signals from the ECM based on input signals received. Further to that having looked at the electrical schematic for the JRE engine I discovered that it is not throttle-controlled at all. Basically the ECM receives an ON/OFF signal from an external source. Depending on whether that signal is present or absent the engine is commanded to either 750 RPM Low Idle or 2100 RPM High Idle, there is no capacity to set any RPM in between. I can't see any way that even the most sophisticated aftermarket system could get around that issue because there is no pinout for a "throttle input signal" parameter on the connections of the engine ECM. As I said in an earlier post, if it was a Woodward governor parameters such as RPM setting & permitted droop could all be adjusted and the governor could be fine-tuned to do whatever was necessary to make the engine spin at a constant +/- 1800 RPM with varying electrical load up to the limits of the maximum power available from the engine. Am I the only one here thinking that this thread has the capacity to go the same was as a certain D6C thread did a while back..? Oh Dear Lord I hope not ........
NO SIR, And that thread wasn't even technical Birken might become TC Birken; using calculator & hacksaw, hammer-chisel. That D6C thread, IMO was camouflaged spamming Kidding aside, Birken your' calculations; flat torque curve almost match C15 Tier3 18:1 compression ratio, single turbo 657G rear scraper engines @ 337kW/451Hp net (gears 3-8) and 306kW/410Hp net (gears 1-2) rated @ 1800rpm, governed 2100rpm. To help you understand vehicular-industrial engine varying on-off load cycles; observe 657s in this short 0:58 minute video. Pedal-to-metal climbing to top of mountain approx 5:30 minutes. I was directing scrapers away from X-mas day repair job that wasn't finished while my helper positioned service truck. This THREAD has been educational. The More You Know, The More You Know There IS MORE TO KNOW I am finished with thread.
Ok but not at the first 5 min's ... if the FF was the main problem ..... it will show the with load ..... the main problem not the FF we can say it helped.
I APOLOGIZE FOR SHOUTING BUT IT APPEARS AS THOUGH SPEAKING NORMALLY IS NOT GETTING THE MESSAGE ACROSS TO YOU. YOU HAVE TWO PROBLEMS HERE THAT NEED TO BE CONSIDERED SEPARATELY . Problem #1 - a broken crankshaft after 5 minutes. Most likely that problem is related to the parts used in the rebuild of engine JRE07538 or to the quality of the people doing the rebuild, or both. Because there are no photos of the damaged parts we can not offer more detailed opinions as to why this failure took place. Problem # 2 - the long-term reliability of the engine (measured in months or years, not minutes). That is where the Flash File, and the relation between the FF and the iron inside the engine, comes into consideration.
Nige thank you and all ..... this thread is helpfull for any guy want to play with and torque RPM Like reference .... Thanks A lot
Well then scratch off everything I wrote because it is pretty much a useless engine for this application then. But now I have got to know, what would be the use of an engine that went straight to 2100? Is there an adjustable ramp time so as not to break things as it winds up quickly? And is there an alternate configuration for RPM other than 2100? But I agree with no throttle input, nothing I could do to make it drive a genset either. The only option would be a flash file that matches the hardware but it sounds like even if it exists, it would be hard to find. My guess is that the broken crankshaft saved Mante from a lot of other headaches because this thing could never have worked right. Find another engine that will be properly set up for this load.
We have C27 V-12 engines in our blasthole drills that behave the same way. Low Idle & Rated RPM and nothing in between. I never dug into it too much but I suspect that there must be something in the software that controls fuelling in such a way that it does not permit a rate of increase of more than X RPM per second (where X might be for example 250). So per that example the engine would take around 5 seconds or thereabouts to go from 750 to 2100. That's certainly how they seem to behave in practice. IIRC those engines will also not action a High Idle signal from the cab unless the coolant is above a certain temperature. AFAIK the only way to change the High Idle RPM would be with a different Part Number of software. It may amaze you to know that when I did a bit of background digging as part of my research into this particular genset I found that there were no less than 27 different Serial Number prefixes of C15 genset engine. That is without counting Marine & Industrial engines, each branch of which has its own range of S/N prefixes. On top of that every S/N prefix of the 27 has a plethora of different arrangements (each one with its own unique software P/N) to achieve certain performance parameters. Multiply the two together and you have probably around 300 possible combinations just in a C15 genset engine. The original generator set that the OP has is one of 9 different engine arrangements just for C5L.
Those drill engines, when they go to high idle is it spot on 2100? And when they begin to work do they maintain 2100 right on the nose throughout (assuming they are not beginning to lug into torque rise)?
They go to 2100 on the nose. When you start to load them up they lug down a hair (accompanied with a nice puff of black smoke), but within a couple of seconds they are back bang on 2100 again. If you some reason they cannot maintain rated RPM under load the Underspeed Alarm sounds I think when the RPM is something like 150 below rated RPM.
That answered my question perfectly. Sounds like if you could find a file for this JRE that was similar but 1800 RPM, it would drive a generator just fine. Maybe not accept full load in one step or be quite as tight under varying loads but the kind of customer that is forced to cobble together a set in this way is not likely all that concerned about super tight frequency control anyway. Most electric loads don't really care about minor variations of this type.
Finding a needle in haystack might be easier TBH ......
Extra for Mante, C15 Tier3 Industrial Engine pdf / with performance charts; bkW and Torque Newton-Metric Curves. Screenshot #1 bkW/Rpm Using B-rating @ 1500rpm = 449Bhp / @ 1800rpm = 476Bhp metal-to-metal contact, deformation-crushing etc. Reflashing ECM with random flash file to increase power output because the engine was struggling @ 50% load/1500rpm. Bumping up to 1800rpm with decreased torque/bhp, bang, bang. Similar C15 Tier3 Gen-Set 2007yr Mante, read the specifications below. Not possible to operate the Genset as designed with the wrong engine. 250kW approx max with JRE engine; and shortened service life hours Used- Caterpillar 400 kW standby diesel generator set, SN-C5E00601. CAT C15 engine rated 636 HP at 1800 RPM , EPA Tier 3 emissions, SN-FSE00785. 3/60/277/480V. Main-line circuit breaker. PMG - permanent magnet generator. Coolant heater. EMCP 3.2 digital control panel. Open skid unit with remote radiator. 175 Hrs. Year 2007. Caterpillar factory worldwide extended warranty for 1 - 5 years at additional cost. Passed load test 6/26/2018. FOB Waukesha, WI
I've been holding my tongue about this for at least a week, and now I'm subscribing to the dam thing.
Even tho this is starting to smell a bit fishy and the technical stuff is well above my pay grade; I will toss my hat into the ring as well. The first question in my head when this started is what type of gen set are we talking about. Is it a industrial set that is designed to run continuous and only took of line for maintenance? Or is this a emergency back up that is asked to go from stone cold to full load in a matter of seconds? From a common sense standpoint I would think that the "hard" engine parts and the run files for thees two different applications would be different. As far as the crankshaft failure that would be hard to say from my keyboard.
You're correct in that here is a major difference between Prime (Continuous) Power and Standby (Emergency) Power ratings. Standby Power is a rating for 1 hour of operation only and is usually around 10% higher than the Prime Power rating which is rated for continuous round-the-clock operation. Hard parts will usually (but not always) be the same between the two ratings, because as Birken pointed out the power produced by the engine is directly related to the electrical demand put on the generator. The Flash File will pretty much always be different.
Cat C15 Gen-Set very similar to the one in video posted above. Same EMDP 3.2 Electronic Controller, located @ rear panel / same basic generator / different radiator set-up. OP has not stated what rating they're trying use, standby, prime or continous usage. OP replaced the original Gen-Set engine with a Industrial engine that is not designed to power a Gen-Set; lacking HP/Torque @ the required RPMs 1500-1800 to operate as designed by Cat. 1) We do not know if the replacement engine was 'new rebuilt' or used with replaced main-rod bearings. OP stated one rod bearing was non-OEM. Per Clevite-Mahle 40%+ bearing failures are dirt related; dirt from poor rebuild procedures. Non-OEM bearing material; tri-babbitt>OEM type or Chinese Silicon-Aluminum?> hard and overloading causes the oil film to fail, causing metal-to-metal contact> bearing distress> bearing-crankshaft journal failure. 2) We do not know if the crankshaft broke or just #6 rod bearing failed 3) We do not know if the OP used the existing ECM-wiring from the original engine (IMO, he did because the engine couldn't be controlled otherwise) 4) We do not know how long the replacement engine ran / 1-3hrs, 20 minutes; unknown 5) Op has stated a different ECM flash file (switchable>no such file exist, probably language term difference) was used before failure; "it helped" for 5 minutes. That indicates, they were having problems operating @ 50%/1500rpm, 'OP stated, 'running without vibration', until switching to 1800rpm and 5 minutes later the engine failed. 6) Op or his mechanic's skills to repair the JRE-industrial engine after failure? Bearing-Crankshaft failure; microparticles can ebbed into piston skirts, scratch surfaces etc, etc. Electronic high hp-torque engines are precision with low operating clearances, as an example C15,18 using a Reman cylinder head shaved 0.000" to 0.020"; requires adjusting cam idler gear to establish the correct gear clearances; requires special Cat tooling. Assuming OP's location; parts-tools are not readily available; example usage of non-OEM rod bearing. OT, cleaning parts with solvents; solvents are masking agents, i.e. oil based that trap microparticles into surfaces' asperities (micron surface peaks and valleys) = **** poor engine building technique.
You mean like OP's 2 uploaded photos of the #6 rod journal failure? 1 tagged VID and the other tagged IMG. IMG tagged photo of rod cap showing tri-babbitt bearing material. VID tagged photo of upper rod bearing seat showing silicon-aluminum type of built up adhered material. IMO, 2 different rod bearing failures. Crappy photo of different tagged photos Maybe the fish is a sardine and OP couldn't travel to see the actual engine failure or whatever. If the VID tagged photo is the JRE engine then the crankshaft might not be toast. Repairable, exchangeable? We do not know for sure if the crankshaft is broken. OR the condition of the other main-rod bearing journals. OP asked, 'maybe hours (used engine), non-OEM parts, FF-flash file make 'broken in The crankshaft'? > YES OP has adequate information (serial numbers, arrangement numbers) to make a informative decision as to repairing, replacing the engine to operate the Gen-Set. Hopefully OP is not located in a country that is currently hostile to US citizens or military personnel and the repaired Gen-Set won't be used to operate weapons systems to drive away 'the invaders', LOL
While we're getting into the technicalities of generator set ratings........ Generator set output is rated to ISO Standard 3046 and is defined as follows:- Continuous Rating - Output available with non-varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70-100% of the continuous power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of continuous rated ekW for 100% of operating hours. Prime Rating (Continuous ekW Rating + 11%) - Output available with varying load for an unlimited time. Average power output is 70% of the prime power rating. Typical peak demand is 100% of prime rated ekW with 10% overload capability for emergency use for a maximum of 1 hour in 12. Overload operation cannot exceed 25 hours per year. Standby Rating (Continuous ekW Rating + 22%) - Output available with varying load for the duration of the interruption of the normal source power. Average power output is 70% of the standby power rating. Typical operation is 200 hours per year, with maximum expected usage of 500 hours per year.
Pow-Gen Industry can be confusing; Prime = Continuous etc. Cat dealer on-line calculator tool. Get a potential customer into a ballpark result before using specialized computer software. https://www.holtcat.com/online_tools/power_calculator Software to predict energy efficiency, most governments, OEMs...example https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/software-tools Another Question, does OP's geographical location (country) use Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel? Cat's newer engines are by default ECM programming designed for ULSD fuel, correct me if I am wrong.
Interesting thread!? I have some experience and training on generator sets and actually I believe Nige and StanRUS are saying the same thing in slightly different languages. First all drivers, whether internal combustion or electric motors, are rated by duty cycle. Duty cycle is the amount of load that can be carried over a set amount of time. Generator sets carry the highest duty cycles on all diesel engines. If the generator is rated at 1,000 KW and the duty cycle on the engine is rated at 100% then it can run that output all the time. To put it another way an engine with a duty cycle of 40% could run 4 minutes out of 10 at 100% load while an engine with a 100% duty cycle can run 10 minutes out of 10 with 100% load. In reality though that costs a lot of money so manufacturers can cheapen that up by setting the engine up at something less that 100% duty cycle. Trucks for example seldom run more than 40% duty cycle. They can have higher compression ratios and more horsepower to get a load moving, but it doesn't take much to keep the load moving once it has reached the desired speed. This is why you usually can't take a truck engine and turn it into a generator engine. Marine use is even a lower duty cycle than truck use and is why you might see an engine rated at 250 HP in a truck rated at 400 HP in a marine application. So as Stan says the compression ratios between these two engines are a hell of a difference. The ratings Nige has stated above are the industry's way of stating duty cycle for generator sets. The issue of hertz or cycles is only related to the speed of the engine because it has to do with how many times the windings in the generator shift polarity in a second of time. It works by how many magnetic poles are in the generator. The generators I worked with on ships were eight poles so to get 60 cycles the engines had to turn 900 RPM. A two pole generator has to turn 3,600 RPM to get 60 cycles. As I recall a 4 pole generator turns 3,200 and a 6 pole unit turned 1,800 RPM. If you want 50 cycles you turn the engine slower. But in turning slower you will affect the output characteristics of the engine. That is why on the electronic engines they remap the operating curves for horsepower and torque when the speed is turned down and you get different serial numbers from Cat on 50 cycle engines than on 60 cycle engines.
A generally agree but a generator engine sees a duty cycle just like any other engine. If you don't apply any electrical load to the terminals of the generator, the engine has no load either. So you can still spec your engine to run a particular duty cycle. If it is an electric pump equal to the rating of the engine/generator then 100% would apply. But if it is running some kind of plant with all sorts of motors that switch on and off depending on processes, then it may have a very low duty cycle to the point of slobbering. DPF temperature requirements have given us generator people all sorts of fits since it came along. You can no longer take a larger set and move it to a smaller application and just take the penalty of an underloaded engine. You have to add electric heaters that switch on whenever it runs too lightly. We don't know the OP's operation so this is all a mystery. Pole counts-RPM: 60 cycles 2 pole = 3600 RPM 4 pole = 1800 RPM 6 pole = 1200 RPM 8 pole = 900 RPM 50 cycles 3000, 1500, 1000, 750
Halo, I hope everybody healthy. May I request files for: Caterpillar C-15 CAT S/N: *F6B02751* Arrangement No: 235-1211CY Thanks...