We need your help. I am a member of an Innovation Team for a company that designs and manufactures components for heavy equipment cabs. Our team has been tasked with coming up with new product ideas and improvements that will make machine operators safer, more comfortable and more productive. We would like any and all feedback we can get on cabs, controls, seats, seat suspensions and restraint systems (seat belts). No holds barred - tell us what you think. Feel free to tell us what you don't like.
Keep it simple and rugged. Make it easy to adjust. About the only thing I want is to be able to set the angle on the back to suit me. Make the cushions easy to replace. They will wear out. Make the cushions easy to keep clean. So many things today have become over designed with lots of features that never get used. So once again, keep it simple
X2 what Greg said...adjustable back angle & cushions that are easily removeable/replaceable. Easily adjustable (with latches, not bolts) arm rests, too.
Think about the poor mechanic that will need to get in there to repair something when it breaks! AND IT WILL BREAK!!! It all breaks Try to have the wiring in the cab protected so when the operator throws all his supplies behind the seat it doesn't cause problems. Same with the HVAC, get it off the floor so it doesn't plug up with dirt and junk. I have lost track of all the times I have had to take a HVAC unit apart and clean out the cores so that the air will flow. Go away from hardened glass. One tiny little flying object and the glass is gone, usually all through the cab. What was wrong with good old laminated glass, or lexan on the side windows? Just my $0.02 from a worn out mechanic
Great comments so far - please keep them coming!
Also don't cheap out on materials, some cab are made with flimsy plastic that cracks way too easy. Not against plastic just when it is to flimsy. Also think about fasteners, don't try to be too fancy or hide them. Just because it's simple to snap things together on the assembly line. Someone will need to remove panels to do repairs and those fancy clips and fasteners waste time and end up breaking. I for one do not like all the fancy curved glass that is so popular these days. I know you make money selling that stuff but flat laminated glass is easy for a local glass shop to cut and install in less time than it takes to locate one of those curved windows, and heaven forbid that it gets broke in shipment! You can be the one to tell the boss that his 1/4 million dollar new machine is red tagged for safety because of a broken window that came in broke! Make wear items like sliders and latches easy to buy and replace. Don't tell me I need to replace the door assembly because some little plastic guide wore out and now the window keeps falling out. Remember you are making cabs for machines that bounce around and get dirty, both cause wear so design for these conditions. Make controls and switches easy to see and operated. Don't have a dozen identical rocker switches that one has to look directly at to see which one does what. Also remember many of the people running this equipment may be wearing gloves, heavy clothes in bad weather and hard hats due to safety regulations and heavy boots. What may seem simple while sitting at a computer drawing up a design in CAD can become a major safety problem while bouncing along an unimproved road in a construction site. If you feel the need to use little pictographs/symbols to label controls so operators who, say might not speak English as their main language can run the machine put a decal somewhere easy to view that explains what that little picture with the waves in it and little thermometer is all about. And yes to all the previous suggestions! PS. Might be good to stop by a few construction sites and quarry operations and get a look at the operators you are designing these cabs for. Not sure about other places but around this area most are not exactly skinny little people. So seats need to be strong enough and access ways need to be wide enough for fast and safe access. It's easy to slide a seat ahead for the small guy but not always easy for Big Ed! Try to fit a 275++lb. line backer into some skid-steers!
Great comments! I'll add a few. First and foremost (which as already been stated) remove the A/C unit from under the damn seat! It plugs with dirt no matter how clean you try to be and is a PITA to get to. These machine work in dusty, muddy, dirty environments and it's just a matter of time before you have to become a contortionist to break the cab down and clean or repair the unit. Never, ever put another seat in a piece of equipment that has the manual crank to adjust the height of the seat - the one with the green and red crank dial that tells you how high or low the seat is. They all suck, replace that with an air adjusted seat. Use a more robust HVAC louvers on the vents, some are cheap and flimsy, which break over time. Use real bolts to put the cab internals together not those funky screws that require some sort of star bit that you never seem to have the correct size in your toolbox. Better routing of electrical wires and harnesses in the cab, don't let them just lay behind the seat or dangle on the door -Bobcat skid steers for instance.
a washable floor that drains good...soundproofing..... hard washable surfaces....ceiling heat and air positive air pressure....the last cat seat i took out was ridiculous musta weighted 80pds uncomfortable was heck damn near impossible to recover suspension was another 50pounds and didnt work right....flat glass that is replaceable without having to break rubber gasket seals...put in nice cup holders etc....extra 12v power taps for phones and laptops..bluetooth etc...
as others have said; air suspension for the seat, air adjust lumbar support, arm rests that don't fall off, wrist rests that adjust. Seat parts that can be replaced. Use large steel screws and steel captive nuts for fastening, not plastic fasteners. for seats in equipment that travel and backup, mock-up and demo and test how an operator will look behind when backing; hand holds and grips that help the operator twist his or her upper body to look backwards are a big thing that reduces fatigue.
PS if switch gear is part of your design scope, don't make all of the switches the same and don't put them all in one cluster. Distribute the switches and make them distinctive to the touch. Operators should be able to reach for a switch, knowing where it is without looking, and know it is the right switch when they touch it. Deere has a very stupid switch pad where almost all of the switches are stuck in a small checkerboard. Want to flash the lights at someone? It's the third from the right and the second form the bottom square. (something like that... front lights or back lights...) A blob of mud lands on the windshield? Stop. Put on your bifocals to see the switch pad. Two wiper switches, one is the back and one is the front, but the symbols are exactly the same. Learn which is which. Press the front wiper switch. The front wiper is in intermediate mode. Press the switch again, the wiper is in slow speed. Press the switch again, the wiper is in fast speed. Press the switch again and the wiper stops. Stupid! That could have only have been designed by computer game kids. Anyone who is used to knowing to reach up on the right to the middle switch for the wipers, or down and behind for a twist knob for the lights, will see that the small square switch pad, that you need to look at, off to the side, is dangerous. edit: sorry, I just saw that I duplicated kshansen's switch complaint. He is right!
Most things have been covered, but I will add: Accomodate operators of all sizes. Tall people often suffer in cabs. I'm 6'3" I've been in cabins where I can't see the horizon without hunching down because the windscreen doesn't go high enough. I've been in cabins where I can't wear a hat because there is no headroom. I've sat in seats where the headrest is pushing on my shoulders. I've sat in seats where the lumbar support was about 4 inches too low to give lumbar support. I've sat in seats where the arm rests are too low to rest your arms on.
Once again, this is all very good input. And again, please feel free to add more material as you think of it. This not falling on deaf ears. A lot of the comments we are seeing we have heard before - this all just underscores it!
And I can understand some of the problems you run into from your end of the story. Too often those who make a decision on how something is made are too interested in how "pretty" it will look in the full color advertisement in the trade magazine, or how they can lower the cost by five dollars to meet some pencil pusher's idea of how much something should cost. If you want to do some research into the problems this can cause look into the problems General Motors had with the Corvair back in the 1960's. Most of the handling problems that Ralph Nader made his name pointing out would have been avoided by the addition of a sway bar that was something like a $15.00 option. But the inclusion of that part would have pushed the selling price just over the projected market price. And no telling how many millions GM is having to pay to replace faulty ignition switches and pay for deaths of those who had them fail at just the wrong time. I can bet there is somewhere a designer who tried to convince someone to make some improvement but was told "No, that's too much money"
While I'm up on my soap box, How much would anyone be willing to add to the price of say a new D6 Dozer to have all hardware or even just the belly pan and under carriage bolts dipped in anti-seize at the factory? I've had things as simple as a 12 mm bolt holding a hood on a machine that was only 2 years old that had rusted so tight that the weld-on nuts would break loose. Glad Norm was a skinny kid back then and could slide up under that hood to hold the nuts with a wrench! Welded nuts back on and now after putting anti-seize on them back in 1998, 16 years later I know they will turn out with my fingers after a good tug to break them loose.
how about shaving some weight off of those seats. every time I have to pull out a seat, I have to get a tune-up at the chiropractors. they're heavy, awkward, and a pita to get outside of the cab. also, why do they have to cost so much? its a freakin' seat! I don't understand why I can buy the nicest leather air operated truck seat for $1000 but a standard cloth equipment seat is $3000-4000.
Thanks again everyone for the great feedback - just what we were looking for. We'd like to pose a question - mainly for operators - is there anything specific (besides what has already been mentioned) about the cab or the seat that 'takes away' from your comfort, safety and efficiency. In addition to making our product better at a fundamental level (more durable and reliable, easier to fix, clean and replace), we are looking for ideas that would lead to better features and enhancements. Like before, anything goes. We want the whole cab/seat package to better work with the operator. We would also like to know what machines you operate to further helps us. Thanks.
I can't think of anything to add to the replies before your #16, that answer your questions any better than others already have, so maybe I can throw something in that will get some comment. I am a tip-truck owner and most of the time use the machine at wherever I load to load myself. Therefore I have experienced a wide range and age of different brand and age of loaders and excavators, but probably never spent more than 1000hrs in any one machine. I don't advocate that you "copy" anyone, but let's see what everyone thinks about what I remember as "standout" features of the Volvo loader cab. *Big wide gnarly steps and plenty of grab handles in just the right places. *Big wide door that is easy to open without having to lean back or go down a step to let it open. *Nice big area at the top of the steps and level with the cab floor, so there is room for your feet to easily turn to go down the steps, or turn before sitting down. *The seat is mounted on a plate that comes off the back wall of the cab about 4 or 6 inches above the floor so there is no seat mounts or brackets to clutter the floor and tangle up stuff that you shouldn't have in the cab with you. The first time you see that plate coming off the back of the cab, you think it is a weak point, but I have never seen one broken. *Big, single piece, flat back window. Exhaust stack in the middle so it hardly ever restricts vision. *No door on the right hand side but a big swing open window that is big enough to get out if you park the machine on it's left side ! *Big slide up and down window in the door so that if the aircon is u/s, with the two windows open, it's not too bad. *Excellent vision all round. *Quiet. *Beautiful pilot operated hydraulic control levers with an adjustable wrist pad. (Gotta say that Case may be even better !) Some points already made that they suffer from. *"International" symbols on switches that are even more difficult when the picture wears off. (I got in a really new one recently, and had to be shown where to even put the ignition key!) *Curved front windscreen that I would hate to have to pay for. Hope this helps.
If I had a dime for every mouse nest. My case 2388 combine has so far proven mouse free. I hate: "Nader pegs" for the door that catch pockets and hammer loops. Seat belts that you can't unhook with gloves. Floor mats that you can't clean, won't the manualp dirt off the steel underneath and chemically break down from grease and oil. No place to keep the manual. I'll repeat the switch gripe. Glass and seat comments.
Whenever possible the key switch should be mounted on a flat or near flat surface with two or three inches of clear space all around. Many operators have key rings with lots of keys on them, you don't want all that weight hanging on the key switch, and on the flat you don't want anything for all those keys to hang up on and maybe jam the the switch in the start position. Seen it happen, starter, cables, and flywheel ring gear later..... "I didn't hear anything!"
The only trouble with the key switch being mounted on a flat surface is it collects dirt in it and jams up and it's hard to clean out with air or wd-40 but had a volvo l120c about 1,000 hrs that the switch was mounted on a vertical surface beside the steering column it shut down when you would hit a good bump or shake the cab it took us a while to figure out what was causing the shut down because it would not turn the switch off just enough to kill the engine also used that big square volvo key cut the rubber off the key and drilled a hole in the center of the key for ring problem solved I'am thinking thats the problem with the chevy's ever seen a women's chain of keys,customer cards,pictures and any thing else that can be on a ring. An engineer told me once that the reason the seat mounts on volvo loaders are angled down in the front is because it is easier to slide the forward because its down hill makes sense ever tried to slide an older seat forward have to get up turn around and pull on back of seat while moving lever with other hand or knee. have a 972k that the cab sucks cannot see out the back hard to turn around hood in the way, back window to low ,small sliding window on right side thats hard to slide ever tried to talk to a half deaf truck driver through a 6" wide window, the round window that come from the factory with a wave in it that was at about 2:00 it was like looking through funny glass at the fair try loading the bucket out of the stockpile thats over 15-30' tall and looking up thinking that it's caving off on you
So true!!! Key switch on a horizontal surface is a MUST. Don't care about the gunk that it collects, spray it with PB or break free and no problem.
Use some sense when designing the mirrors. I am small, but I have lost count the number of times I have gotten into a tractor or TLB and bashed my shoulder because they sit at a funny angle (and then had to readjust them, too). Also, can we have all the simple seat adjustments placed in logical places, not scattered about in the least obvious places, or grouped under the seat where you have to put your head between your knees to see how to adjust the seat. And with retractable seat belts, have a bit of a plastic sheath about 5 inches long at the opening of the mechanism that stops the tongue rolling back all the way behind or under the seat. It makes finding it and grabbing it so much easier. And I agree with the well placed hand holds for when having to reverse and look behind you, an example is in the Doosan Mega series wheel loaders. And on excavators, please can we have the left joystick console liftable like they used to be? I am small, but damn, I still have to dance around it when getting in. I can only imagine what it must be like for the bigger guys.
What about the cab door windows breaking when the door is slammed open by the wind or just shutting the door. I believe a sliding door would solve that problem. With all the SUV's having sliding automated doors, surely something could be adapted for heavy equipment, even if it was not automated open and close.
All very good suggestions for sure! I have one that pertains to cabs. We always install 2-way radios and or CB's in our machines for jobsite comms. The new cabs have next to no place to mount things except a ROPS post that you are not allowed to drill or weld without ruining the certs. Put a couple mount plates or threaded holes or something on the pillars that we can mount aftermarket items to. Along the same lines.... quit making every thing out of plastic! These machines aint cheap and plastic has a short lifespan in construction environments!
One thing at I like about the new Cat skid loaders is the controls are mounted to the seat. it all moves as one unit.
I'll toss out a few, don't put anything in or near the cab headliner by the door, I've broken off more knobs, switches and controls with coat hoods and pocket catching on things as I climb out over they years its not funny. If its heavy equipment, have the cab door lock open somehow, a lot of stuff is only to be run with the door shut, there's no way to latch it open. I want the entire cab to come off, not in days or hours with a lot of help, but in less than one hour with one person and a crane I can take it off, take it to the shop and troubleshoot switch issues, seat problems or whatever is inside it, while on the ground, not feet up in the air. I'd also like to have a complete contained ac unit, mount the compressor on it, have it driven off a hydraulic motor and if there's an issue, swap out the entire unit and go or take the entire unit off and take it into the shop to be worked on, that way everything is contained within, somewhat like a fridge or freezer is done. I'll add to the comment of flat glass, whoever invented curved glass should be shot. On the cab, have the glass held in with rubber gasket material, but have the entire window frame unbolt and be taken out of the cab, this does two things, first I can take the frame, gasket and window out as a unit to be taken into the shop to replace the glass, so I don't have to take the machine in or put the glass in the gasket myself or have a service call to have it done, then have a hook on the outside of the frame so I can use a crane to help put the whole assembly back on the cab, without a dozen people helping me install the window or glass, doors can be taken off, but the main cab windows usually can't. No plastic inside the cab, I could care less about looks for my heavy equipment, bolts are the only fastener to be used in putting anything in the cab or putting the cab together, no clips, screws or fasteners that require anything but a standard set of wrenches. Headliners should be bolted in place, not glued on, you also need to come up with a much better design to deaden sound and insulate the cab than is available today, most stuff used today is junk and won't stand up the dirt and vibration over time. Air is the only thing to use for seat suspension, if you have to use an air pump for the seat, don't mount it under the suspension like some have done in the past. Put whatever you do on actual jobsites for testing before ever putting it into production, tell whoever is testing them to go tear them up, if they can, its nothing like will be done to it in normal use and abuse on many jobsites.
I would love a seat with a toilet/bidet/dryer.Seriously though inside the cab my biggest pet peeve is how my gauges fog up all the time in the morning on my open cab machine I also wish more machines would have a telescopic steering wheel somw time I wish I could bring the wheel a bit closer to me
Please listen to this suggestion...It's right on!!! I could not have said it better.
heated joysticks in excavators.
Wow...never heard of that one...you must be working with a open cab in the winter???
I run a 980 with command steering for instance to run that machine you never move your hands around its all just right there we have some volvos too and you have to shift this and push that button over there to get it to down shift it's a real pita. Make machines where you don't remove your hand from a control it's very simple and clean it makes for an easier day too. Air ride seats are win. A nice roomy cab is also nice gives you room for your lunch box without it getting stuck under the throttle peddle lol
I have my window open whenever I have a grade checker/pipe layer. I have dug footings in temps below zero and cold wind blowing into the cab will make my hands cold.
I also would like to the see the whole industry pick a standard lunchbox and water jug size and provide a spot in every cab to secure one of each.
Make places to keep stuff like bottles of windex and paper towels. How about a heated and cooled compartment. JD articulated truck have a compartment that cools whatever you put in it like hot bottles of water. Coat hooks you can actually hang a a hard hat and clothes off of.
Here's 2 more wants: 1. On heated seats, use a 3-position switch (rather than 2) so you can have a hi setting to warm your butt, a low setting to keep it warm (but not cook it), & off. My car seats do this...works great. 2. Also on heated seats, extend the heating up the seat back , at least past the lower back. 3. Make all seat backs high backs that can recline .
Dashes that are easily removed for service of gauges and diagnosis
make the seat belts easy and adjustable because sometimes we irritate when car belt not adjust:notworthy
Provide lifting points to make cabs easy and safe to remove. For example, the Oshkosh H-series truck cabs have no lifting points. Oshkosh responded by selling an expensive and often unavailable spreader bar that uses straps through the cab to perform the lift. Make it safer and easier for the Techs that will fix it later. Provide a way for water to drain to handle mud and snowmelt or an operator that leaves a window open during a rain storm. No low spots under the floor coverings for water to collect and rust the floor plate out. Like some of the other guys said, use windows with rubber seals. It's not practical to glue windows in when it's -20F. Plus it takes too long for the adhesive to dry and takes the machine out of production. Thanks, CD
Take a look at the 988B Cat dash setup. Sitting in the operators seat you could remove a couple screws holding each section(right and left) of panel, pull dash out and 3 or 4 color coded plug connectors unplugged and dash was completely removed. You could then carry the two panels down to the work bench to work on the problem.