My good friend is having problems and doesn't know where to turn. He relies on his dozer for his income for his family. We have been trying to troubleshoot it but we are at the end of what we know. He does not know computers well so he asked me if I could post this. Here is his description: the Caterpillar serial no. is 3ZN00440. The transmission S.N. is 9RX00856. It is a D6R, 1997 year model. As soon as you start the engine, after about 3 or 4 seconds, the alarm starts sounding and the brake warning light on the dash starts flashing red off and on about a second or so apart. The brakes are locked down and the machine won’t move – when you put it in gear you can tell it puts it in a strain but the brakes hold it. It is some electrical problem. I have the seat our and the floorboards and am trying to clean – blowing with air compressor, etc. – there is a lot of dirt, and gunk all over, and I’m trying to find some wire that might be frayed, etc. but so far haven’t found one. also not sure maybe an ECM problem? Do they sell refurb or used ones? Any other ideas? Any info would be much appreciated Thanks Rick
Hi Rick, first off we need to determine if there are any fault codes logged or active see picture below in the screen shown there will be the words serv code this indicates that is an active electrical . to determine the fault codes hold the button indicated until a series of numbers and letters appear there may be quite a few of these numbers but the ones with the word serv code displayed are the ones that are important at the moment
As mentioned above, get the code or codes. I had the parking brake switch go bad on mine.
He told me that there are some codes like this response says...however, there are none that have the word serv code displayed. The system just fails its initial sweep of all the circuits and shuts down by flashing the light and sounding the warning alarm. That's all I know for now. Dad has a Cat service manual and has tried to retrieve codes by following that the same way your respondent suggested. There are no serv code numbers displayed. Any ideas? Thanks
What that sounds like to me is exactly what the machine is supposed to do when you first turn on the key. It's a "self-test" of the panel - first all the gauges swing up to full reading and back down to zero again (probably more than once), all the warning lights flash (including the SERV CODE icon), then finally the Master Fault light flashes and the warning buzzer sounds before the gauges settle at whatever reading is correct for the state the machine is in. For example if the engine is warm then the coolant temp gauge is not going to go back to zero. If the machine is doing all that before the engine is started then to me that sounds perfectly normal. Try this. Turn on the key and let the panel go through the self-test until it completes by flashing the Master Fault light and sounding the buzzer. Do not start the engine. First question - is the SERV CODE icon illuminated..? Then with the key still on and the engine stopped press the black button with the tick mark above it as per Mark's photo above. Note all the groups of numbers that appear and post them back here. To move from one code to the next you will have to press the button each time. The groups will be something like 030 096 F03 or 113 299 F07 just as a couple of examples. Also for each group of numbers note whether the SERV CODE icon lights up or not.
Thanks for your help guys. Here is his reply. I'm sure this is all such a pain. He hasnt been able to get to work over this junk! ***************** Yes I have pushed that button many times and got all the codes – the ones beginning with030 are related to the engine. The ones with 113 are related to the transmission and brakes, etc. When the engine starts and it shows the hours, “Serv code” shows up with it. when I press the button and go into the codes, (there is about a dozen) it scrolls through all the codes and no “serv code” ever shows up on the list. That is what is frustrating. I had installed a new brake pedal position sensor back in October and the brakes started working properly for a while, then quit again in Dec. It then showed a “serv code” for the position sensor, so I replaced the one I bought in Oct. since it was still under warranty, and it still shows the code (I think 113 298 or 498 ) but doesn’t say “serv code” any more but the brakes did not start working and the warning still flashes and beeps. I also installed a new brake microswitch and it didn’t help either.
hi , some codes need the machine to be operated to show the serv code. if you just start the machine and look at the code list displayed it may not be accurate until the machine is put in gear and operated mark
So now we're getting sonewhere. Work has been done on the tractor electronics and now there is a problem with the brakes, maybe the work on the electronics was done in an attempt to fix a brake problem and has been unsuccessful. How is it that the full story never comes out righ from the start...? Can you ask the owner or whoever is working on the machine exactly what were the original symptoms on the and how did they first manifest themselves..? Did the problem start all of a sudden or did it gradually get worse over time..? Also, and despite the fact that are none of the Diagnostic Codes in the list have the SERV CODE icon lit - please give the list of Codes with 113 (transmission control) prefix that are on the machine even though none of them are Active right now. It will help to see what has been registered on the diagnostic system. A thought for all our other contributors. AFAIK on these electronic tractor transmissions the transmission won't engage into gear without the park brake being released first, or am I off base with that...? However the OP seems to suggest otherwise. Is that a clue..?
Good point Mark, especially the ones related to the secondary brake microswitch. Thinking about that, that switch has 3 contacts, common, normally open, and normally closed. In this tractor the wires are connected to common and N/O, the switch contacts close as the service brake pedal almost reaches the bottom of its travel. If the wiring on the new switch was connected to the N/C terminal that would screw things up........
Indeed Nige, the parking brake engages both left and right brakes and shifts the transmission into neutral. Vegas, please get a complete list of codes from the owner, problem could be with wiring, solenoid, switches, etc (could even be just a problem with a ground), but need somewhere to begin. Best
So maybe, just maybe, the problem could be with the secondary brake switch operation (controlled from the brake pedal) that is simply another way way of applying the park brake but will not have the same effect as the park brake does in that it doesn't neutralise the transmission.......
Yes Nige, but the switch shouldn't set off the alarm automatically until the pedel is depressed, unless the microswitch is shorted internally or a wire is shorted. The service brake position sensor should not set off the alarm until it is depressed, unless there is a short. It could also be the parking brake solenoid causing the issues.
Or unless the wiring to the contact side of the switch is connected to the wrong terminal - normally closed instead of normally open. That would set off the alarm without pressing the pedal as soon as the engine was fired up because the pedal position sensor would be saying one thing and the switch another. That switch has 3 terminals but only two of them are used. I know from personal experience how easy it is to connect wrong.
Here is more info. Im sure this is getting complicated: that there is no way to get past starting the engine. Once the engine starts up, the brake warning light and buzzer immediately sound, and keep the trans locked out. The diff-steer nor the brake release button beside it will affect anything. No way to operate the machine, other than the blade and ripper hydraulics. The lights work fine, the guages work fine, the engine runs fine. The machine was working in the bottom of a pond being constructed at the time when the brake suddenly locked down with the sound of the warning buzzer. It hasn't moved since. For almost 8 years now it has been periodically doing that in the middle of working. But always before, we could just pull up the park brake button beside the diff-steer and it would then reset and go. It got worse over the years, and had to be done several times a day. For a while it had been setting low voltage codes, and foot brake position switch codes, but then they would clear. I have talked with Cat numerous times and retrieved the codes and cross checked with our Cat service manual, and was never able to find a hard fault anywhere...only intermittant. I suspected a bad connection, ground, or wire or sensor or solenoid. I've been able to dertermine nothing all this time. But now that it is locked down and not resetting, so to speak, we still cannot find anything. So we replaced the foot brake position switch (potentiometer) and then the foot brake full stop micro switch to no avail...we even replaced the new position switch again in case it had been defective. Nothing. No codes, no bad readings so far. Thanks
I think it's the parking brake switch or switch adjustment, why it doesn't throw a code I don't know. Maybe a Cat mechanic can plug in and find a fault code that for some reason doesn't display on the dash.
So what I think you're saying is that when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel..? Another question. When the panel performs the self-test when the key is first turned on, does the SERV CODE icon appear at the RH side of the panel in the location shown in Mark's post #2 above..? The brake pedal position sensor (it's not a potentiometer BTW, it's a PWM position sensor) and the microswitch that were replaced - were genuine Cat parts used and was the Power Train ECM calibrated afterwards...? I'll ask again for the 3rd time. Please post the list of Codes registered in the Power Train ECM, logged or active it makes no difference. We need them in order to see what has generated codes in the past even though they might not be active now. I find it more than a little frustrating when someone posts here looking for help and then won't give a straight answer to questions that are trying to get information that ought to get us to the root of the problem.......... Last question for now. Would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all..? If yes PM me with an email address and I'll gladly send you the correct one for the machine.
After having slept on it I have another suggestion. Beg, borrow, or steal a Cat 4C-8195 Control Service Tool (aka Click Box). There is even information here on HEF how to build your own if need be. Then with the key on and the engine stopped erase every one of the Diagnostic Codes that are currently showing on the machine. If none of them are Active then they should all erase. Once all the Codes have been erased start the engine and observe what happens, I'm sure the machine will be no different. Once the engine has run, switch it off and then turn the key back on again and look for Diagnostic Codes. I have a few bucks in my back pocket that says there will be at least one and that Code will tell you where to start looking.
There is an access cover on the shift tower below the controls for the brake switch. The fact you could work the switch and get going is an indication of possible adjustment issues
I'll post this just because our D5M was doing something VERY similar. Sincere apologies to Nige and the others on here who are very knowledgeable and willing to help. This was our farmer fix for our problem and got our machine back up and going. It's still going this way today because we have been unable to locate the actual problem and since it operates fine...... We do hope to get it in the shop one day and get this all sorted out. I also need to add that our machine is one with finger tip steering. Can't remember what that is properly called Also I'll preface this with this....I don't know that your machine is even remotely the same as ours. Our machine would randomly lock down the brakes and not be able to move. Sometimes it would go back to operating in a minute and sometimes you would have to go home for the day and come back the next day and it was moving again and might run that way all day or several days and then do it again. We finally narrowed down our problem to one of the park brake solenoids. I don't remember what got us to that point but that's where we came across a solution. We felt like one of the solenoids was getting weak and letting the park brake apply when it shouldn't. In the process of diagnosing we unplugged one of the solenoids and found that the brake released. The CAT technician who worked on the machine for us once when it did this seemed to think it was a loose wire at one of these solenoids but we could never trace that down to that exact problem. At any rate unplugging the park brake solenoid stopped the problem and it has not returned. Our machine has two park brake solenoids (??) and it is just one of them that was causing the problem. Apologies if this isn't your problem. Also to all you guys that are so good on these machines please don't hammer me too hard for my farmer fix. I know it's not the right way.
The 2 solenoid valves on the manifold for the Park/Secondary brake dump manifold are identical, part number 133-2250. One gets its feed from the park brake switch via wire # G730 pink, the other gets its feed from the service brake pedal position switch via wire # G731 grey. The manifold assembly complete with the two solenoid valves is ref 16 in the illustration below.
Quite correct Nige, I mis-remembered the switch as having only two terminals. Earlier you said that the transmission would engage but the brakes were locked down. Is that what you are trying to say here, or is the transmission locked in neutral?
Thank you all for helping out. I will forward all this info to him and I will see what he says. This is how he makes a living for his family and I know he appreciates all your help. I will see what he says Rick
Anyone know where you can get a used ECM????? I passed all that onto my friend. He is working 12 days so I am not sure when he will get back to me. He appreciates every ones help. Another question is does anybody know where he could get a used/remanned ECM for the dozer?????
Here's a link to the thread with the instructions on making you own clicker: HeavyEquipmentForums Go to message #20, read all the ones in that section as there are more details in later posts. Not really rocket science if you take time to look over all the details given. Three of the right type of toggle switches from any electronic store or even NAPA if you have a good parts guy there. Some wire in a few different colors to make it easy to keep them straight and a simple box of some kind to mount them in, heck a little wooden box from a hobby store would work.
Actually I have since located an event better (clearer) document that lists all the required materials to build a Click Box right down to the last electrical connector pin & socket. The OP can PM me with an email address if he wants a copy. The ECM will be the last thing he needs. They don't fail often and from experience the only guarantee is a new one or a Reman one from Cat because all the cowboys who allegely supply Reman ones don't seem to know Jack ****. Apart from that the installation of an ECM will need a tech with a computer and Cat ET software to program the replacement. This = major $$$$$$ which according to you the dozer owner doesn't have.
Thanks. Here is Lynn's response: ((........when the warning buzzer sounds and the Master Fault light is flashing just after starting the engine that the SERV CODE icon is not visible on the panel?) Yes the SERV CODE is visible but when you push the button and scroll all the codes it is not visible and no code shows SERV CODE when it is scrolling. I will have to get back to the dozer to answer most of the other questions and get back to you , but the question (was the position sensor and microswitch that were replaced genuine Cat parts?) Yes! (was the power train ECM calibrated afterwards?) No. Also the question (would an Electrical Schematic for the machine help at all?) No – I have one in the huge manual I have. I will get back to you with more info. Thanks a lot. Lynn
OK, that answers my question. Please let Lynn know the following: - 1. If the SERV CODE icon did not to light up during the panel self-test that would mean that there was a fault in the display panel and obviously when scrolling through the Logged Codes if the SERV CODE icon was not working it would throw the Code diagnosis off completely. Now we know it is visible during the self-test then it ticks that box. 2. As Mark posted earlier some Diagnostic Codes are only active when the engine is running. This may be the case here. Instead of checking the Logged Codes with the engine off, check them with the engine running and see if anything changes. Report back your findings. 3. I am still of the opinion that clearing all the Logged Codes from the machine using a Click Box and then running the engine might generate something new that would help in the diagnosis. As I said before it may be possible to get hold of one from a local independent shop or from the dealer as a loan or even to rent for a day or so. It would be money well spent IMHO. 4. Does he have a digital multimeter that can be used to check continuity in certain wires in the machine wiring harnesses to and from the Power Train ECM..? Diagnosis is pretty much a matter of eliminating "what it isn't" and eventually you'll come down to only one possibility which is "what it is".
forward to Lynn. He really appreciates the help. The weather has been cold and terrible in Tx. He said he will be working on it today or tomorrow. Thanks
A good point that Mark makes. You can erase Diagnostic Codes even more simply than a Click Box just using a few inches of auto cable. NOTE: The ground connector on this particular D6R is slightly different to what's shown in Mark's diagram. The illustration below is taken from the Electrical Schematic which Lynn should already have in his Service Manual if I understand correctly what you posted above. Connect the length of wire to Terminal #4 (201 Black). To scroll through the Codes it's easiest to use the switch on the dash panel in the cab. Then once a Code is on Hold connect the other end of the wire to Terminal #2 of the Service connector (291 Black) to clear the Code.
Thanks for the info. Here is how newest reponse and it looks like this may be what you were asking for. I hope this helps. Thanks: Oops I think I made a mistake. Today when I first turned the key on and the panel did its self-test I did not see a SERV CODE. Then I started the engine. The brake symbol was not flashing and I thought everything was going to work. I raised the blade and rippers, pushed down the park brake button and put the trans in reverse. Immediately then the brake locked and the alarm flashed and sounded. I pushed the service brake back and forth and nothing happened. SERV CODE also appeared on the panel along with the “N’ for neutral or 1f or 1r if I tried shifting. I pushed the display panel button and got the codes scrolling. As soon as they began scrolling the SERV Code disappeared and no code showed SERV CODE. The codes that showed are 030 (engine) 096FO3; 030 819F02; 030 821F04; 113 (trans) 070F02; 113 168F03; 113 168F04; 113 177F03; 113 298F02; 113 299F08; 113 299F13; 113 468F08; 113 623F02; 113 671F02. After I let it run a little while I killed the engine, turned key off then turned key back on and SERV CODE showed on the display along with the machine hours . The brake symbol flashes and the alarm flashes but no sound. I started it again and then after about 3 seconds the alarm also sounds. I will try again tomorrow. I printed off the responses of yesterday and will try to do the suggestions. Thanks again, Lynn
Here's what the Codes are for...... 030 isn't the engine BTW, it's the Monitor System. 113 is the Power Train Control which is more likely to be interesting in the diagnosis of this particular problem. 030 096F03 - Fuel Level Sensor, Voltage Above Normal. 030 819F02 - Monitor Display Datalink, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. 030 821F04 - Monitor Display Power Supply, Voltage Below Normal. 113 070F02 - Parking Brake Switch , Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. 113 168F03 - System Voltage, Voltage Above Normal. 113 168F04 - System Voltage, Voltage Below Normal. 113 177F03 - Trans Oil Temp Sensor, Voltage Above Normal. 113 298F02 - Service Brake Pedal Switch , Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. (As I asked before. Are you sure that the switch is connected correctly..?) 113 299F13 - Transmission Lever Position Sensor , Requires Calibration 113 468F08 - Service Brake Pedal Position Sensor , Abnormal Frequency, Pulse width, or Period. I did mention this was a PWM sensor didn't I..? 113 623F02 - Directional (Reverse) Switch , Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. This is not the same as the Transmission Lever. It's a switch similar to the one on the service Brake pedal. 113 671F02 - Transmission Output Speed Sensor, Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect. All the suspects for causing the problem with your tractor are there in that list. Park Brk Switch, Service Brk Pedal Sensor & Switch, Transmission Control, & Directional/Reverse Switch. As Mark & I both suggested, try erasing the codes as per the instructions at the end of Page 2. Once you have them all erased try powering up the machine again, fire up the engine and try to move the machine and see what happens. Observe carefully at what point the SERV CODE icon lights up. I'm sure some Codes will return despite not being Active in your list. That will point us in the right direction.
Oh wow this is almost exactly the same problem I had Nige but d5m ...I would check wires as Nige said and if you don't find anything wrong ...take the 2 solenoids off and....Test them by crank engine and see if they are magnetic using a screwdriver .its pretty much a electric magnet switch on it pulls pin and up and fluild flows off its released I think that's right I may be backwards ... unscrew spools I think its 15/16 deep well (also clean top around solenoids good don't want more dirty and stuff falling in ) once you get spool valves out I think u can unscrew the ends becareful its a tiny ball bearing inside clean the pin and ball bearing remember the tiny ball bearing covers a pin size hole so put it back over hole and pin behind it ..trash could be holding ball open or it could be rusted never know till u open it up ..once you get them back together reinstall and I hope this works
Here is a better view of what you're looking at. The other screen shot was not very clear. Sandwiched in between the Transmission Control Valve (#3) and the backplate (#17) is a manifold with 2 solenoid valves on it. I have outlined it in red, you can see the electrical connectors in the top and bottom right corners of the rectangle. I can never remember which solenoid valve is which but you can identify them easily using the wire numbers that are connected to them, one gets its feed from the park brake switch via wire # G730 pink, the other gets its feed from the service brake pedal position switch via wire # G731 grey. Also I've included a separate diagram showing what the manifold would look like if it was off the machine to give you a better idea. This view kind of imagines that the backplate #17 has been removed and you're looking at it from the right side of the illustration above.
hi here are some brake valve graphics
That looks like the images from an STMG. Fancy sharing the complete document..?
no problem Nige just tell me how Regards mark
thanks for help. Here is the resent response from him. It isn't looking good. Well a disappointing day. I installed the new parking brake switch and it didn’t help at all. Still have the brakes locked. I have checked all the contacts on the J1 and J2 ECM connectors for the different codes that scroll and everything checks out (ohms) as the book says. One thing I wonder about. When I hook everything up and turned the key on, I disconnected the connectors at the secondary brake solenoid, the parking brake solenoid, and the left and right brake solenoids, and measured the voltage at the machine connector ends, and at the secondary brake solenoid the voltage is 0 when the brake is up, then when I push the pedal down it is 24 volts; but the parking brake solenoid shows 4.5 volts when the parking brake is off and 24 volts when the parking brake is on (as it should). Also the solenoid connectors for the left and right brakes (ours is differential steering so there are no clutch solenoids) show 4.5 volts, and when I push the service brake there is no change – both of them show 4.5 volts no matter where the service brake pedal is. I wonder why these solenoids are getting 4.5 volts. The book says the left and right brake solenoids are proportional and as the current decreases the move to the left and the hydraulic pressure decreases. Also why is the parking brake getting this 4.5 volts when it is off? Also I checked the ohms of each solenoid and both the secondary and parking brake solenoid showed appx. 43 ohms. The left and right brake solenoids both showed app. 4 ohms. I can’t find in the book what any of them are supposed to show so I don’t know if it is as it should be, but both of the parking and secondary were the same and both the left and right brake were the same. So I don’t know but assume they are ok because they were the same. I called another guy who is supposed to be a top notch Cat mechanic after this and he didn’t know anything about the voltage and just suggested to do all the things I have already done. Then he said he thinks it is the computer. Maybe someone will know at least about the voltage. Thanks, Lynn Let me know if anyone has any ideaS thanks Rick
4.5V? are you sure? It should be 5.5v pull up voltage. Is he using a dial type meter or digital multimeter? You need a DMM to troubleshoot electronics. Here's a cut n paste from a previous thread on the subject; "Regarding your question about seeing +5.5V at the signal wire. What you are seeing is pull up voltage. Electronics (as opposed to electrics) actually see things in three states, viz. high, low or floating. High and low are good and the circuit can use them. Floating is when a circuit is neither +ve nor ground, but it will still generate micro voltages and confuse the software. To fix this the ECM sends 5.5V to the signal wire through what's known as a pull up resistor. This means that when the signal wire is open circuit the ECM sees 5.5v. When the signal wire is grounded, it defeats the pull up resistor and the ECM sees 0v, never anything in between."
The resistances of the solenoid coils are within specification so no problem internally with them, or at least it appears so. I don't see anywhere a response to the suggestion of clearing all the diagnostic codes using nothing more than a length of wire then firing up the machine again and seeing what new codes it generates. That would be the obvious next move for my money.
All are symptoms of dirt build up in the right side external tool box Causeing water and ??? To get on to the cab connector/ fusebox and causeing poor connections.
I will ask him thanks
Vegas Cowboy, A CAT Technician with his magic laptop can tell you fairly quickly what the exact faults are and what you can/ should do in an attempt to isolate and subsequently correct the failures. So my question is, after all this time attempting to fix it why would you not hire a CAT tech to come and diagnose your failures/ fault codes ? If he feeds his family on the back of this dozer everyone is going to starve to death while he continues pussy footing around guessing at what could possibly be wrong...We had a very similar issue of our D6 and within minutes I was told what the problems could be. The first item of his listing on items to check we found a pushed pin inside one of the connectors that was taken apart while addressing a completely different issue....sometimes it pays off to hire The CAT field tech..:Banghead
Hi Rick Did you ever get to the bottom of this problem ? I am having the exact same issue its driving me insane. Thanks Luke
hi, I don't think you can post your own thread just yet but can you post your serial number and any history leading up to this problem also if you have any fault codes please post those as well Mark
sounds like you have ET. make a temp group in et and monitor the park switch status, brake pedal limit switch status, the brake pedal position sensor and the brake solenoids Mark
Update: Thanks for the help just thought i would post the outcome should anybody come across it. Ended up replacing the Xmsn ECU with a second hand one although i was highly doubtful it was the issue, flashed it with the latest flash file quick direction lever calibration fired it up and to my suprise it worked everything was fine. I have had to replace a reasonable amount of ECU'S in my time but never without any fault codes to lead me in that direction and certainly none that essentially displayed everything as working correctly. I Also plugged the old ECU in and flashed it with the most recent file just incase it was some kind of software glitch and it still did not work. All i can think of is that something in the ECU just gave up. Anyway it would still be my last port of call in this situation in the future but maybe it will ease the minds of anyone that is in a similar situation and debating on taking the leap of faith and splurging on another ECU. Cheers
The ECM's have a time delay before they actually log a fault code. but sometimes just monitoring the status groups you can catch the actual readings as they cycle Mark
Absolutely agree that an ECM replacement should be the solution of last resort, but you have to remember that an ECM is a dedicated computer that only assumes an "identity" once the relevant software is flashed into it. That's why relatively speaking there are not that many different Part Numbers for basic blank ECMs in the Parts system. If an ECM suffers a communications problem in one channel out of the God knows how many it has built into it there is always the possibility that it might not log a Diagnostic Code. I've come across this occasionally before so people need to be aware that the possibility exists even if it's a small one. I've seen many ECMs before where a small amount of data from the flash file has been lost when powering up or down - don't ask me why, I have no idea. ECMs in this category generally respond to a re-flash of the appropriate software, although TBH I always try to install the exact same Part Number Flash File as was installed before, just to be on the safe side. Again it's good diagnostic practice IMHO to only change one thing at once, so if re-flashing the existing software P/N fixes the problem then upgrading from that point to the latest available FF P/N, if one exists, should not cause any issues. I remember I was involved with a D10R once that none of the gauges in the dash panel worked despite the fact the engine ran fine and the machine operated perfectly. Couldn't communicate with the engine ECM via Cat Datalink but could communicate via Winflash. Re-flashed the ECM with the same P/N software that was already installed and hey presto everything in the dash panel started working again plus communication via Cat Datalink was restored........... result ........:thumbsup