I undestand that the model is everything in machine control. But how much does the gps actually help an operator..For example can you take a operator with minimal experience and have him finish grade with a motorgrader or Dozer? or does it just benefit an operator that is already a good operator?
It takes many years to become a good finish grader operator. There never were that many around and fewer every day. With GPS a less proficient operator can do finish work at good speed. It also makes a top operator very fast. Only down side to all these systems is an operator will never have the skills that the old guys had after 10 or 15 years.
What will you do on a project that doesn't have a GPS model, just a set of prints, a few grade stakes and a job to do?:cool2
No it wont! Finish grading with a blade takes alot of pratice and is very tuff
I vote no, to be quite honest GPS can be screwed up more than a cut sheet made by a drunk taxi driver, input calculations, GPS signal and connections that are not secure is some of my personal traits of distaste for the grind and go level system. Make a friend with a old hand with experience and have them mentor you, get some time on your machine to learn it. I just would rather use a lock level, string line and some stakes myself, I was taught old school and tried out the GPS and it was dysfunctional.
Like CM1995 says, "what do you do when you run into a job without a GPS model. Kind of work done around here I have not seen job set up for GPS yet. Oh ya, sooner or later the da-- thing is not going to work. Than what do you do with the computer wiz kid machine driver who expects to get paid for standing around all day sucking his computer talented thumb.
You got to get good first, then get GPS. And no GPS is not disfuctional if you know what you are doing, i know in LA and TX that you have to have GPS when doing any highway work since the tolerance down there is .03, and i dont care how good you say you are you cannot cut it that close without GPS.
I'll also vote no, it sounds like a good sales pitch to me but I've found reality is slightly different, you need skills first and know something, once learned it would speed things up but not for just anybody off the street like the sales guys are saying from what I hear gps still has a lot of bugs to be worked out, let alone cost effective, the price of the stuff all set up and ready to go isn't cheap at all. It'll have to come a long ways yet before I see it for more than just a few on very large jobs. As for Gregs statement, I"ll second that one the whole way, the kids who run them are smart but that's about all they can do, when the computer quits its time to go home.
There are no bugs to be worked out of the new topcon and trimble systems, they have everything pretty much figured out, there is very minimal downtime on these systems. You have to have GPS on big jobs, if you dont you better have about 10 grade checkers
I have seen them work, and then not work. Smart goes in and smart comes out, someone has to program and plot and if you would have incorrect data then you will be off grade or the slope will be screwed. I was trained back in the 70's and not the type to deny new technology, but if it works then was always willing to learn or try it. With a GPS your day can be made or busted, no matter what material you are working in I have seen it work well and people surprised me by how fast production can be done. But 72,000.00 for some GPS units could be well spent elsewhere
I am sure they are top notch units when new, but give them time and something will go down.
We have some of topcons old systems on are dozers and blades that are 10 years old and still perform well, just like everything else you have to maintain them, if you do you wont have any problems. yes $72,000 for topcon 3dmc2 and i think 60 for trimble accugrade
True about maintenance and upkeep, but now having 60 to 72 thousand dollars in small parts have been known to grow legs also. I was a working superintendent for three cut and fill metro jobs and the owner had three topcon units, they did work well up top on a airport runway when you had clear line of sight the the sats, in the wide open they worked fine until you were close to the airport radar, then they went in and out. When I was down 25 feet in the cut, they went in and out to the point we went to manual. Worked all the way down to 65 feet and never lost a grade with manual. When the unit had a issue with aircraft signals interruption the grade crew lost the grade, just a 5k yard overlap but cost money. We had to cut out the top and back haul it to the yard which was two days skimming and re loading the trucks. 5 men and 3 machines with two very competent grade checkers. The GPS will not work under roof, or more than the angle of satellite responses, it has to link up to however many it needs and know ours had to have at least 4 to link up. If you get too close to a building with mirror glass in takes a dump, or shiny polished objects. I can hire and train anyone to check grades for 2 years for what one unit cost, that includes benefits and perks.
Sorry but that sounds like you had unqualified GPS supervisors, there are many different channels that you can run your base off of so that other signals dont interfer with your signal, but you have to know what you are doing, i have no idea how to do any of that we have one person in charge of that on every job. Ok your purchase price of a new system is $70K, and you said that you can train and pay someone to check grade for less then that, but you have to pay that guy that amount every year, where as the GPS is $70k one time sure you may have a few parts to purchase but thats it, and getting 5-10 years out of these systems is pretty easy. So in 10 years you would have paid your grade checker 500,000, where as you could own a gps system for a 1/4 of that
Was not due to surveyor or engineers, get a GPS system near a mirror reflection and it has signal bounce, polished granite stone, marble etc or polished stainless steel will also enhance deterioration of the signal. A few call it ghost signals, or interference. Regardless of situations bot of us set around and think up they are not anywhere close to being perfect and degrades the operators ability of learning how to operate rather than being a seat warmer. I am trained old school but love to learn new things and enhance production, but not at the expense of the company. We ran production excavation on all the cut and fills and when a high tech piece of equipment cost more than it produces it has to go, once we ran the GPS off the job and went back to stakes and transit we increased production. So GPS production was 30 thousand yards per month, we ditched the GPS and came back to 55-60 thousand yards a month on grade.
In ten years that grade checker might have advanced through the ranks, and now be running a production machine... the GPS system will be ten years older and obsolete compared to the newer syestems of that day. We have a similar problem right now, a lot of the GPS on oru equipment is ten years old and the only replacement parts we can get is from what we have leftover. Trimble no longer even makes parts for these older systems. Don't get me wrong it's great when it works and I'll take it over trying to work around 400 grade stakes, but it's nothing more than another tool to aide the operator. If the system goes down for a few hours or longer, the guy in the seat needs to still be able to do the job. GPS has been around for about 15 years, heavy equipment has been around for a hundred, so the argument that a person can't work because the GPS isn't working isn't a good one.
The equipment is only as good as the ones fixing them and setting them up to run, around me, granted I'm in the middle of nowhere, there are few and far between persons who set up the programs to run the gps units in the first place, they were trying to sell them to those that did nrcs work for the county and state offices, not bad my local county office isn't up to even using lasers yet, let alone even knowing what gps is, let alone coming up with anything to resemble a program to do the job, so its up to the consumer who buys the gps to write or setup their own programs for each job, now if your up on gps to be able to do that, then you still need to be able to have a signal to run them or enough satalites to give accurate measurements, most times in the terraine I'm in and the locations we work that's not possible, if your working around and under tree's or in a ravine or ditch, too close to buildings they still won't work, now toss in the weather situation where its cloudy or rainy and some satalites are no responding you have a nice looking high priced boat anchor. If your on state or highway jobs or big construction jobs they might be the ticket for guys like me, the units cost more than the dozers I'd put them on and the type of work I do lasers and machine controls are definately the way to go, more cost effictive and user friendly and work a greater majority of the time and have local people who know how to fix and trouble shoot them. I too love technology and given enough time gps will too come down in cost and reliability will come up to all areas like it might be in your area.
if you have prints then you can make a gps model, the grade stakes just make it easier
I vote yes. Yes, GPS can help, it depends on how you can use the GPS properly as the function itself. But, experience is one of the higher factors to be an professional.
Hey guys- Looking for Trimble GPS system- Sitech quoted around 45,000 for refurbished unit. $8,000.00 for mounting without reciever and control box. Looking for another souce for the complete unit. Any Ideas?- Appreciate any info. Thanks
Flyball> What exactly are you looking for? Add a machine system? Base station, rover, data collector?
Im a owner/operator looking to add a GPS system to a 140 H blade, no base unit, but complete system for a blade. (trimble)
I take it that you already have a base and rover?
Is the 140H an ARO machine or will it need E/H valves and harness?
I dont know what aro is, but I have trimble auto valves that came with my cross slope system, they are the same valves that come with the trimble GPS system, I am looking for the rest of the system, ms992 dual recivers and CB430 control box w/software, all onboard plumbing I can get here local.
sent you a pm. i have that unit for sale
I didn't know GPS was subject to bounce. Twelve satellites don't change their signal but the base unit is the signal that will define the accuracy. I had trouble with laser "bounce". Even a bright strobe would give false signals sending every light in spasm mode. But all those things are useful if you have a large spread with multiple machines doing a lot of fine grading or when you get your cuts down close to grade. Until then, you still need the skills to move dirt and there is no laser or GPS that can teach you that. I was on a large freeway project where the Super's girlfriend was a foreman (I am not going to say it). They were using the spreadsheets to tell them when something was supposed to be done. One day, she asked me if we were going to be ready to spread base in the morning and we hadn't even finished or rolled out our subgrade. It's the same thing. Relying on a spreadsheet to tell you what your brain can find out if you would stick your head out of the trailer once in a while to give it some input is total folly. But I'm sure it will happen again. On that project, I also learned that all you pins and brass on the blade have to be in really good condition or you will never make that +/- 0.05 grade, especially on those grade transitions. Automation is great but at its current level, you still have to have a brain to make things work right. Actually, I hope it stays that way.
That's funny how that works. By the time you get to be a grade checker out in the Southwest, the next step up is a boss. Strange, huh? [/QUOTE]"a lot of the GPS on oru equipment is ten years old and the only replacement parts we can get is from what we have leftover. Trimble no longer even makes parts for these older systems."[/QUOTE] They make everything to be obsolete till the next better, faster, smarter thing comes along then you have to have that (or they require it!). But they haven't cloned my brain yet and wouldn't know why they would. (Lets hope that mold broke) [/QUOTE] GPS has been around for about 15 years, heavy equipment has been around for a hundred, [/QUOTE] And horses have been around since....well. My Dad talked about what you need to know to get those old Cat Super C's around a downhill curve or the best way to fatten out a slope with a Cat and Can while turning to the uphill side without rolling the can. It will get to where you won't need much of a brain pretty soon but then the good ones will go someplace where they can find a challenge. Just look at the steel workers.
I asked this question in the dozer line but I'll ask here. I've been running a dozer for 20 years,finish grade is my place to be behind a blade. I've been out of work for a few months and today i filled out an app for a job and was asked if i could use GPS, never had the need give me a stake ever 50/100ft I'm good to go. So with that said how hard is it to learn this GPS stuff??? I'm by no means a dummy i've done some layout with GPS,but don't know how that compares.
I would say that none of the systems that I have been on are difficult to operate. Having someone that knows the system explain to you what you are looking at and what to do as you see changes would be the best way to get rolling. The person who builds the "model" that you see on the display, and how much info is put there, also comes into the learning curve. I have been told there are some you tube videos that con be informative. Its still cuts and fills, and these systems basically bring the design, or prints, into the cab, giving you a cut/fill indication, and once you are close to finish grade, turn the blade control over to the system to automatically drive the blade to desired elevation. If you know what system they are running, I have several operation manuals, and I could e-mail one to you. I would admit that you havent run one, and tell them you are learning every day. What you lack in experience make up for with enthusiasm. Good Luck !
YES it will we have about 100 operators and the young guys with the gps run circles around the older guys without. It is no contest I see it at work all day.
I dont know who feed you that bs, but their is no such thing as a ghost signal. Maybe you should get a new gps guy becase your is not up to par. Everything you said should have been handled in a few minutes.
Are the young guys using automatics, and if you get a job or situation where the GPS is not there, how good will they be then?
That's my thoughts too Jim. Last week I had a job to excavate a hillside in order to make a horse riding arena. We trucked the dirt to the other side of the farm to fill in a low spot. No engineered plans, no grade stakes and no possibility of GPS but I produced what the customer wanted.
Its easy, i trained a guy how to use it in a hour the other day. But it does take time to be comfortable with it. Its like anything else you need time behind the stick to get good at it. There are a lot of guys on here talking about how it doesn't help, its always down, or "I don't need that stuff". Let me ask you this how many times have you or someone you know over cut a area or spread material beyond the area of work. It is a tool to help speed up the building process. It works and fine grading with it is way faster. We had 2 graders with operators of the (about) same skill level fine grade a stretch of road one grading the left lane and the other the right it was a 4 to 1 ratio in the gps's favor.
manny, I agree it is a great tool to speed up the work. Company I work for has trimble on all our dozers, etc. Problem can be, it can become a crutch to, I've seen guys get completely flustered if they don't have GPS cause they got so used to it. That's why I asked if the young guys are using automatics, cause anyone can push a button and steer. A good operator should still be able to grade to stakes and "feel" as they grade. Course that's just my thoughts on it... in so many years us operators will all be obsolete probably.
I'm sure what he means by ghost signal is the reflected signal off rock, buildings, tree's, etc. I've never worked around tall buildings with gps, but I sure have worked close to tall spruce trees numerous times building roads and pads. The satellite signals definately do get bounced (reflected) off the tree's and cause havoc with the gps. It will start jumping up and down all over the place and/or go out because of low accuracy. The reflected signal takes longer to reach the receivers and/or base so it screws up the distance between the sat and the equipment. I just built a big pad for a contaminated liquid plant to be set up with spruce tree's on all sides. Any time I was within 30 Meters or so from an edge, I couldn't run in automatic mode. Yes it can be a crutch and Yes I've been there and got flustered myself. LOL I'm kind of a perfectionist and have a hard time letting a job go as 'good enough'. Too many times I waste extra time doing things that I should just let go like getting my ditch toes cut out just perfect or pushing a lump around trying to loose it in a 2 cm fill. LOL But overall I think it is definately worth having. It's wonderful just having all the information right there, knowing where everything is or should go. I've been running iron for almost 33 yrs now and I usually don't have a hard time picturing the finished product in my mind at the beginning of a job. But for the younger folk starting out and even older operators that aren't able to grasp what the finished product should look like, the gps is invaluable because you can see on your screen what it should look like and there is no question if you have enough or too much material or should I have pushed that farther etc. Yes you still need to know how to move the dirt and place it where it belongs, but things should fall in place much faster with gps.
the system is to help the operator not make him one.
Correct me if i am wrong(and i am sure some of you will). You still have to know your machine and have the understanding of how to move dirt properly. I am pretty sure gps controlled machines cant tell you how to move the 2' cut and displace it where it needs to go. Yeah it tells you your cut and fill but most machines cant just go in and hog out in one pass and be right on. I dont have gps. I do things old school i guess. But most of my jobs dont require it. So to answer the question yes it can help them in final result as far as tolerance but as far as productivity they need to learn how to run machine without it. I am a firm believer in having a vision of what something is supposed to look like when done. I understand not all operators can do that. If you cant look at a grade and figure out which way it is flowing then you might want get on another machine.
GPS Grading GPS is obviously a great aid to grader/machine control for all sorts of levelling and construction. For my 2 cents worth, operating a grader is more than just that, especially for civil works. It covers items such as- -knowing how to blade mix your material correctly -knowing the properties of different materials you are working with -knowing how to compact those materials -knowing how to work the surface as required depending on final finish Add these and modern control systems with a dozen other items I haven't even thought of and everyone can benefit in some way. Certainly the finish tolerances from electronic guidance systems SHOULD be far better than eyeballing. Some where along the way you can't avoid learning the basics that everyone else had to. Good luck.
it's pretty simple if you can see it taking shape your lost....I don't care how much gps you use.I'm doing landing pads for the new jets in Beaufort.There and many TE thicking joints and and three different thickest's of stone.Yeah put your a day oper. on that your know right quick for the days out, what kind of oper. he is!
If 30K a year including benefits is the going wage, I hate to see what the "perks" consist of.
Not everywhere has the same wages as CA. That last big job I did was a very unique pond. There were bust all over the place the engineers REALLY screwed the pooch on this one. I made everything work long before they got everything re-engineered. What good is GPS then? The job I'm on now is making access roads in the oil field. Just me removing the top soil and placing 8" of road base 10' wide wherever and however the customer wants a road to go which changes often.
Bingo! The key to success... Its as easy as a little service. Happy customer = happy check signer. A happy customer is likely to tell a friend or two which means someone stays busy. GPS or not, us worker bees tend to the queens needs. Nothing more, nothing less....:cool2 Sad but true. That said, since im here in Ca, I'm gonna get me as much as I can while I can. Even I know that nothing lasts for ever.
And other areas have different costs of living too.. Make hay while the sun shines!
No not really. I left Socal to go back to TX in 07 when companies in CA where cutting there work force in 1/2 or less. Had no problem finding a job and after 5 years I'm getting close to what I was making in CA with a cost of living of a lot less.
Digging up an old post (No GPS required). I've about had it with this God forsaken state. I'm not sure where I want to go but I want out of here. My son is in Kansas and has been trying to get me to load up and move. I've been thinking more along the lines of going south. Ditch my identity, no speaky anymore English and change my name to Pedro DePacas. Once I get caught trying to sneak across the border, I should qualify for all of the wonderful benefits that I can't afford now thanks to 44. Finding a job should be easy since I can wrench, weld, operate almost anything and even carry grade. (no GPS required)
Az is hoping filling up more every day with people leaving California and operators are no existent
I am training a fellow now. This sure isn't "normal" contractor work like roads and such. Much more open. When my guy gets caught up digging he gets to try and finish a terrace. He has ran two days on two different jobs so far. Just that has really helped him see where we need dirt with the 613. I'm using an ag based system and I think it really helps him to "see" the highs and lows. Following the land curvature with a terrace the gentle ridges and swales are hard to see as they can be long and gentle, and in that situation the grader doesn't find the lows and highs. Without the GPS it can look real good, with the berm the right height from the channel, but both having a real long high or low. This is the system I have, the screen has been mounted forward a little further, was to close to steering wheel. Have raised the receiver. This was some maintenance on an existing terrace.
Thats because most operators are either dead, retired or like me. .they refuse to accept the fact that this state is way beyond repair. Not in my lifetime anyways. Its hard to pack up and like a refuge, run for your life from the ground you grew up on and the people you grew up with. My folks are buried here....not that they would mind. That's besides the point. Other than that mean Mexican girl that kicked me in the nuts in 3rd grade, I've never run from anything. This new breed of entitled libflakes changes everything. I'm afraid that AZ will succumb to the crap infested needle littered land of opportunity that is known for.
I wouldn’t check grade for less than 75k a year now a days there is 3 different operations going or more to stay with and then do all your foreman numbers on top
You still need to know how to work the material Gps won’t steer the machine so it’s up to you to know how far behind curb to throw your material etc and if you hit the button that changes your vertical offset on the joystick you can get screwed up fast. It makes me able to get on the dozer and know what movements to make get it close then let the gps cut the final 1-2 tenths see rookies try to hog a train load with it on auto
Last year I had a job leveling for 30 greenhouses. With the auto grade things went very well. The first nine the cement guys laid their forms and were pouring cement. The next nine they already had the redi mix trucks all lined up for when we finished a bed...... and then....... a receiver went down. Talk about stress. There automatically were 3 companies stressed to the max. The last bunch of beds, the other entities weren't breathing on my company so bad then.
Old dogs with new technology I fit in that category. You need to use it frequently or its painfull. There's so many offset adjustments in the system for a grader. GPS on scrapers & buckets (pans as you northern hemisphere people refer to them as) are reasonably straight forward. Early last year I was put an M with GPS to lay material on feedlot pads. The supervisor just showed me one set up per day or two, which when I had a fair handle on, another lesson was given. After 2 weeks I was fairly confident with the speed & quality of my work, which I wouldn't have been able to perform as quickly without it. One previous supervisor showed me way too much in a couple of sittings, which just flustered me, hence I left the GPS turned off & did the job "old school"
I manage larger residential jobs, and the companies that know how to leverage the technology properly have a huge productivity advantage, and better finished product. Now, it's not a panacea by any stretch, but it's a tangible advantage.