I have a JD 332 and I have heard a few times that the rubber track skid loaders don't have enough ground pressure to push snow effectively. There is a cheap dozer blade in my area but I don't want to buy it if the forum agrees that they don't push snow very well. Thanks for your time.
It will be better than a shovel!Tires do much better.If its for just around the house you will be fine,if your wanting to make a buck a pickup will be better.
I have a pickup with a plow and a rubber tired skid with a bucket but I have a lot of places to plow and if it is worth it I may buy a 6 way for the JD 332 and get that going to. But if the JD won't push it well it is no point investing the money in to the 6 way or snow pusher. Also there has not been a winter here in 7 years or so that would justify a big investment in snow handling equipment. But sources I trust are predicting a colder wetter winter and I want to be ready.
We use a t190 to push snow. spins out just as fast as rubber tires. pavement is hard on tracks though.
Adam, thanks for responding. Are you saying that your CTL is no better and no worse in pushing snow than your wheeled skid steer? I am very interested in how a CTL does in the snow because I, too, am thinking of using a CTL with a snowblower. Many thanks to anyone who can contribute to this discussion.
I think with the standard CTL track they don't work well, once the surface is polished with compacted ice or snow. Bridgestone makes a CTL track made for snow. Its called Polor track or something like that. If you were going to use a CTL for snow it would probably be worth the investment. Cheaper than adding a wheeled machine which you have to chain up anyway. They told me that the track wears at a rate of a couple mm per 100 hours with decent care taken by the operator. I am sure like anything put an idiot behind the sticks and you could burn your tracks up quickly. Once the ice tread is worn off they then can be used in the dirt, according to a Bridgestone rep. When you see pictures of the tread that may make more sense. The top portion of the tread has many bitting edges in it to grip ice/snow after those are burned off, you have a regular track.
The trackloaders work great for back blading and pushing in straight lines. We use our track machines mostly for edging out around large buildings etc and let the larger wheel loaders handle the larger areas. Most of the skidsteers run with blades on them and they also edge and support the track machines. The track loaders really shine when the snow has to be back bladed from a building or between cars. We've found the skidsteers kinda get hung up in the snow when back blading where as the track machines just climb up over the snow. The track machines push a lot of snow if their moving straight but lose their push when trying to turn. We do not use plows with the track machines because of that.
Jim Dandy, It depends on the snow and the terrain. We got over 8 feet of snow last year and 90% of that came in 3 weeks. Dry/powdery snow..no problems. I was clearing driveways with over 3ft of untouched snow and as as long as it didn't get icy I had no issues. Last year was a fluke (hopefully) and I even had to break out the dozer to move snow. If I was going to move snow as part of my business, I would buy a cheap wheeled machine so I would have the option of chaining up when ice became an issue.
For what we do we have a s185 and a t190. As far as I have seen the tracks spin out at about the same point the tires do. The t190 does have a little more weight to help but not much. The tracks seem to wear fast witch is expected on pavement. You tube has a cool video of a asv with a snow blower. I think year round if you can afford the undercarrage repairs a ctl is the way to go.
Last year I tried to use a Takeuchi to move a couple inches of dry snow on top of ice. It was almost worthless. I had to take a running start to push any significant amount of snow, plus like others have said you can only go in straight lines. ISZ
You should check out Bridgestones new Polar Tread track.
I pushed alot of snow with a 247 Cat all with a standard tooth bucket. that was a couple of winters ago... As for the straight or turning .... I can't remember I do know it was 10 times better t
Same but different question, how do the track loaders (cat 257b) push dirt with a blade. Summer dry to wet condtions?
For icy conditions has anyone tried putting sheet metal screws into the rubber to act as studs? If so, did it help? I guess you could even go with regular studs if you drilled the lugs out for them. I have not done it, just asking if anyone else has.
Sounds like a good idea.... but geeze that would be some serious screwing... I do think the Cat would have better traction due to more smaller lugs..
YouTube - ASV RC-50 vs. Bobcat T-250 YouTube - ASV SR-80 Posi-track vs. Bobcat T-250
Put those 2 machines on concrete,dirt or asphalt and the t250 will push that machine over.
No, you put those two machines on dirt or asphalt and they each go over hydraulic relief. I've tried to push my RC50 backwards with a T300 on both dirt and apshalt and they just sit there in a hydraulic standoff going over relief when both of them are pushing. Based on that I would assume that the same thing would happen with the SR80 and the T250 since the SR80 is only about 400lbs lighter (not 4000lbs lighter like the RC50 compared to the T250) than the T250 and about the same engine hp. The question on this thread isn't whether a Bobcat T250 is stronger than a RC50 or SR80, but whether or not rubber track machines can push snow. There are tons of other debates about power, performance, reliability, brand preference, etc. This one is about snow pushing, and before all of the comments come out about whether this is all smoke and mirrors I will tell you that after selling Bobcats here in Wisconsin for over 8 years and now owning an RC50, the ASV machines will outpush rigid undercarriage machines (regardless of brand) in snow removal by a margin so big it isn't funny. Once again, dirt work is another thread or discussion.
I agree with you on the mtl machines out pushing rigid undercarriages in the snow yes. But some people think that a rc50 can outpush a t250 on dirt. Ive heard it numerous times and its total bs.. Im not impressed at all by asv machines they have there place thou just like everything else. Think there underpowered, built cheap and very akward looking which makes the visibility out of the machine terrible
if you get on anykind of an incline stop or spin out your stuck and they are like a ice skate as far as when they start to slide. try to drive out of the slide you go faster. and when you would catch that dry spot with a wheel machine and stop the track machine will go right over the top until it hits a big dry spot a curb ditch or car so its not really a good idea to push on inclines. i know someone will disagree with this and say they have done it but they probably have also slide down a hill or side ways if not its only a matter of time. and like it has been said they really dont push any better on packed or icy surfaces than a wheeled machine
They are definitely no better than a wheel machine, but to say you can't move snow with a your CT332 would be false. People use them for that all the time and they get the job done fine. If you've got the machine and can make money pushing snow with it you will be fine. Slopes are a pain, but that's really no different from a wheel machine unless you're chained. If you're putting a thousand hours on plowing snow, yeah, I'd look into a wheeled machine for winter, simply for economics regarding the depreciation or the CT, but if it's just a hundred or 2, I'd run what you got.
I agree with you that the RC50 shouldn't be compared to the T250. After all the RC50 is almost 2 tons lighter. I respect your opinion on how you feel about the ASV machines; however, I don't agree with them. While they are far from perfect, as are all other machines, I have owned one for some time now and I have found it to be extremely dependable, very productive, built no worse than others, etc. I was a Bobcat salesman for over 8 years, and I can't honestly say that Bobcat, having been building skid steers for generations, doesn't use any better components than the ASV machines or others out there that exceed engineering qualities by any significant amount. I've seen thousands of different failures on the Bobcat machines over the years, and while they are good machines (I still own a S220), the ASV machines stack up just fine with them IMO.
IMO The Tires vs Tracks argument isn't nearly as important as the machines ability to flex with the surface for maximum traction. Rubber tired skids with their bucket or blade on the ground carry most of their weight on their rear wheels. Those wheels get a incredible amount of traction with the correct air pressure. That being said the track machines need to be split into 2 groups RIDGE FRAME CTL and SUSPENDED CHASSIS MTL machines. Now the most popular of those is the ridged frame CTL simply because it's cheaper to build. By it's own design it limits it's ability to push by not being able flex to fit the surface it's on. From race cars to rock crawlers if you can't flex with the surface you are on you can't get a grip. The suspended chassis machine MTL have ether torsion axles on the track frames or oscillating bogey rollers or even better BOTH. When I was lookin to buy a track machine that one point was the deal breaker on everyone I looked at. I got both torsion axles and oscillating bogie's.My machine runs year round and have a contract for snowplowing a industrial complex on a hillside that has alot of staging areas and service drives. I have plowed it with rubber tire skids with chains and tracked machines. Tires work great but you need chains at least on the front wheels to get you off of the ice or if you are piling and get into deep and saddle bag the breast.They will turn a SHARP corner better than a track machine while pushing. Suspended track machines MTLs On a straight push can't be beat especialy up hill or piling snow. Normal turns like a pickup or a car would make can be plow with no problems, forget pin point 90* turns. I'll get flamed for this,But leave the ridge track machines the shop. Their track system is a little more durable than the MTLs for rocks and large gravel but they lose in flexible contact patch.
pushing snow Caterpillars undercarriage is a spinoff of a "snow-go" like the utilty companies use. Its soft and flexible with no steel bars across the tracks. Except for the 289c-299c. They perform well in the snow as do the ASV,s because they are the same manufacturer. Cat owns part of ASV. These "nice" riding machines come with a price, They dont like rocks and gravel or pretty much "dirt". Hard particles tear chunks of their rubber coated rollers off and wear the tracks out. The other machines Bobcat,Deere,New Holland,Komatsu I believe Takeuchi and will assume Kubotas new line all run unercarriages made by a company called Berco. There are small brand specific changes to each but all pretty close in design. For example Bobcat rollers run in the center of the track on the steel lugs,you do the math... Deere runs the roller flanges out to the smooth rubber edges of the track to loose some of the bumps but when you roll over a rock you still get the window rattling Rat-tat-tat. Komatsu had them build a triple,Center with side flanges. Have not been in a Case sat in a 299c at a trade show. Have spent 3 years on CT-332 Deere, worthless in snow. Spent a week working a friends T-300 in Tahoe same thing. Yes Im in California,Yes we have snow up here. Its not L.A. You can save a lot of money by buying a snow/utility blade instead of a dozer blade. Deere makes one and I think Quick Attach (attachment Co.) markets one. About 2,600$ instead of 9,000$ I have not tried them But Skidsteer solutions ,check them out online, markets a product called Trackbites that bolt onto the side of the tracks for mud and snow. They are only for Bobcat but the track tolerances are all so close I dont think you would have to modify much to put on another machine. Hope this helped, Good luck.
CAT owns 0% of ASV. Terex owns 100% of ASV. I won't pick through the specifics of your post, but there are at least 5 incorrect points you made. However, you are 100% accurate regarding performance in snow for any of the rigid undercarriage machines.
I found out myself a couple of weeks ago. During the snow when it was snowing very heavily and you would make a pass and almost right after making the pass there would be a dusting of new snow both the solid rubber tire and the rigid track machine were struggling. The pickup with the plow was most effective while plowing during the snowfall. After it stopped snowing and there was some traction the 2 skid steers were very productive. I disagree that the JD 332 is useless in the snow. The solid rubber tired skid steer got stuck and spun out way more than the track machine. Maybe air tires would make a big difference, I don't know but suspect they would have more traction.
tracks on snow I stand corrected. Winter before last My buddie Dan and I thought we could make a few bucks moving snow up in Fall River. He also has a CT-332, the first series with the bolted on cab towers. Our great idea fell short quick when we couldnt even get out of his own driveway! May have to do with Ice......... I was running my shredder in Shingletown last winter DURING a snowstorm and it moved around O.K. on flat ground, but this was fresh falling snow about 1 foot deep. Maybe the fresh stuff will pack up in the lugs and give some traction. However,I ended up replacing a 300$ chrome exhaust and 1 headlight due to the Digger Pine standing some 200' tall at the bottom of a hill I was working on. Hey ,I got one full rotation on the way down! So my point is, They dont tend to get (stuck) they just dont perform like we all think they will in snow.
Digdeep YOU couldn't have worded it better ....Ditto ! :drinkup
I agree with dieseldeere that they don't perform like we all think they should in the snow. All I am saying is that they are far from useless (in my situation) for snow duty. Especially for post snow storm touch up of parking lots after the plows have been through the people pay us to fine tune between cars, make access to dumpsters, and piling up snow in centralized piles and consolidating piles.
tracks on snow Sounds like you have a good thing going Jim Dandy. DigDeep,I wondered what was up with the whale grey paint, okay so they got sold off. My point is still not wrong it was a CAT ASV thing. Jeez ,next your going to tell me Bobcat is owned by some foriegn company. If your calling B.S. on me give me the other 5 so I can learn more. A friend who sold Bobcat for years told me the new sprung suspention Bobcats undercarriage is self built,not sure about the fixed style, but said they were berco in the past.
we have a cat 267b it has the asv type tracks and it does very well pushing snow it also handles a dozer type attachment very well but working on the tracks is a full time job
prfire20, I agree, lots of buddies have them. Have run a few at 1/2 day or so, Super in snow, not so fun in rock and gravel-(if you have to buy the parts). Im sure they wont be good in snow with the embedded type tracks, but the new 9,s caught my eye,I am going to try one.
sounds like a good choice
This is mostly correct. Berco made bolt on track undercarriage systems to work with the wheel machine chassis for Bobcat, Deere, Case, New Holland, Komatsu and Cat 299c series. The Komatsu and Cat undercarriage are nearly identical with the same drive motors. The CAT has notches between each roller komatsu does not. All of the machines were designed to be wheeled skid steers and get a bolt on undercarriage instead of wheels. Most still have the chain cases Takeuchi, now Kubota and IHI have a dedicated track system. These machines have been designed to be track machines from the ground up. The are welded to the body and overall better designed. Cat MTLs are great golf course and landscape machines. Even in the manual it is strongly recommended to stay off gravel and side slopes to do severe damaged to the undercarriage. The undercarriage is very expensive to maintain. IMO track machines are not ideal for pushing snow. I use and recommend wheeled machines. The same reason track machines do well in mud make them poor in snow. Ground pressure.
tracks are great for everything but snow. Tracks are like snowshoes and you will float on top and spin around. Better to have tires in the snow
Actually Bobcat is owned by a Korean company, Doosan Infracore. jr
tracks in the snow.......... Jrtraderny, I know,I was being a smart ass. The salesman at Bobcat west said it was like 47 Million and that 30 some odd Mil. was actually paid for by the Korean gov. That was the fall of 07. (boy this should fire up some e-mails) Ohio Takeuchi, I have the local Cat guy checking but it sounds like its their own undercarriage.Will pipe up when he confirms. I have run a Komatsu and their Idlers (front and rear) are actually a triple.. Meaning Bobcat runs a single center.Thats it. Deere runs a double (no center wheel) Cat runs a single rear,triple front. BUT have read a few postings about track derailing problems and sounds like their fix could be a triple rear. Maybe someone with a Cat can fill us in. I am curious who makes Tak,s undercarriage? Were all here to learn more so here is the part you are misled on. If you park a CT-332 Deere next to a 325-328-332 Tire skid (same frame class) They are not the same, the pins are bigger,The coolers are bigger and there are no chains or cases. I cant speak for all brands but I think all the CTL,s are purpose built track machines. You might have a bust on Thomas skid steers. No matter what ,the MTL,s and ASV,s rule the snow! Fill me in on the IHI, I do recall the name, maybe a little green excavator?:beatsme
You are almost correct on some of your information. There are two primary providers of steel rollers in the CTL industry, both of them Italian- Berco and Passini. Here are the links: http://www.bercoamerica.com/default.aspx http://www.valuepart.com/ The valuepart link is the US based group owned by Passini. Berco is probably CAT’s largest competitor in the aftermarket parts business for dozers and excavators. Berco actually manufactures the whole undercarriage for Komatsu and Deere. Contrary to what Deere will try to tell you it was introduced on Komatsu’s machine in Europe for well over a year before Deere launched their CTLs. The other OEMs with the exception of CAT and Takeuchi use primarily Berco components, but have their frames built by different suppliers. CAT’s CTL rails and components are actually South Korean and in November CAT purchased the company that was manufacturing for them- http://www.cat.com/cda/files/200765... Announces Acquisition of JCS Co Ltd.pdf?mode The “notches” are merely different style idlers selected by the different OEMs. There are triple, double or single flanged idlers that they can chose from. While most of the OEM use an existing skid steer chassis, none of them still have chain cases. They are either driven by a sprocket directly coupled to a drive motor, or a sprocket driven by a drive motor/planetary drive combination. Although not a CTL, the VTS is the exception because it bolts directly onto the wheel hubs of a skid steer and is driven off of the “rear” chains. I’m not going to beat a dead horse on snow pushing again. “MTLs” aren’t just for golf courses or landscaping, although they do excel in these areas. They are just fine for general construction work regardless of the Kool-Aid that people try to get you to drink.
I agree with Digdeep the MTLs can handle the same work that the CTL do. If common scene is used. I don't shy away from hills or slops frontwards backwards or sideways.Gravel and rock are no different to me. The main thing is to use common scene when you are running a MTL. You can not do 90 or 180 turns on a bed of gravel or stone and not expect to load the tracks and rollers with materal that going to destroy them.Go forward and reverse turning slightly each time. Also pushing hard while in a turn will cut tracks on rocks cause only one track is doing all the work.Stop, backup, and turn to correct and continue the push with both tracks driving. Don't spin the tracks its not necessary.your machine will push harder without track slippage. spinning tires or tracks have no adhesion to the surface. Clean the tracks out. Not just shovel them out get in there and look for rocks and stones and even wood that can and does get wedged in the framework My 277 Cat has 1500 Hrs on it. Caterpillar did a evaluation on the tracks and rollers, It got a 80%, I am hopeful for another 3500 Hrs on them before changing them out, We'll see!!
Thats pretty good that you have 1500 hours and have 80% left on your tracks/under carriage. I would love to see a picture off that. We have 8 cat 287B and 287C, 297C models and have never come close to that. We are large company and are not owner operated when it comes to the equipment (we have around 15 operators). I just can't see how you could possibly get that much out of a set of tracks.
Well I am a owner operator and I got to fix what I break. Damage control is aways in the back of my mind. While running any machine, It helps my bottom line. Possibly your operators learned their operating skill on steel track dozers and track loaders and are running the MTLs the same way. I know I had to break some bad habits and learn a few tricks to get the job done without tearing the machine up. Its all common scene.
Being an owner operators certainly makes a huge difference, but I feel ( as an operator) that those numbers are really impressive. We are a high profile GO GO GO company, flying from one job to another and at times we are using the rubber track machines on surfaces that aren't rubber friendly. What kind of work to you do?
Mostly a sub contractor I preform a variety of operations no other contractor wants to do or has the equipment to do. concrete demolition, driveways, parking lots, utility lines,small cut and fill work,and heavy landscape. Between those jobs I work road construction in the summer and plow snow in the winter. If your a hi profile co. that is GO GO GO. Sounds like your sacrificing the machines for hi production output.
Yeah thats pretty much the case. I guess when we're flying around trying to get as much as possible done in a day, wear and tear becomes our enemy.
What do you do that requires you to fly around so much??
I'm an owner operator and I have to say that is very impressive. I had about 1800 hours in my one Bobcat T320 before the one track ripped apart. I too am very careful with all the things you mentioned and I thought I was doing good with the hours I got. Come to think of it I think when the track ripped there was still lots of tread left and I thought I was going to push well into the 2000 hours. I don't think I was anywhere near 85 percent though. Make sure you watch your tension real close as that track ages a little to much slack and it will rip.
Curbside Doesn't your Bobcat have cables in the tracks? Cat /ASV tracks don't, theres no metal at all in them. I have only adjusted them once in 1500 Hrs
Yes Bobcat tracks have metal wires running the length of the track and then it has metal treads that run perpendicular to the cables where the sprockets drive the track. This metal is then encased in rubber. That is wear my track eventually failed when some of the wires snapped and the treads pulled out of the track. So your track is nothing but rubber? I thought all of the tracks had re-enforcing metal embedded inside the track.
You better believe a track machine can push snow , if you lift the front of the tracks slightly off the ground ... there goes the low ground pressure . A track machine is heavier by far ( about 1300 lbs more over a tire machine ) . I have owned/operated both ... in the dirt in the snow the track machine hands down will push more !
Rubber and i think Kevlar Belts. Built like a conveyor belt I guess. I am sure someone that knows for sure will chime in. This is why the Cat/ASV machines get a lot more grip. About the same difference as between old bias ply tires and radial tires.
I could write a novel on what we do and why we have to fly around. We are a union company. If the machines aren't moving, the trucks don't move, and the laborers are standing. Drivers cost around $60 an hour, laborers $48, operators around $90/ ( those numbers are including the full benifits for each scale) anyway, in the long run going slow in order to save a little track life here and there doesn't pay for us. Theres more to it, but I'm not going to go on and on.
In other words you get paid by the foot. I know where your at,been there done that. Let me guess. Oversize buckets on the Cats. Running full bore at all times. Tramming on mostly asphalt or gravel. Clean up with the bucket down and the tracks up. Yep been there done that.
I guess, something like that. Normal bucket, 4-in-1 that comes with the cats definitely don't run with the bucket down and tracks up. We know what we're doing, but slow and steady doesn't fly with multi-millions dollar projects. The investors we deal with want everything done yesterday. To each there own style. I have a Tak 150 that I baby more than my boss' machine, but I'm footing the bill like you and I'm my boss when I do side work. I was just super impressed with your 80% thread/under carriage life after 1500 hours
Track machines certainly are heavier, but that doesn't mean the wieght is hitting the ground. People buy track machines because they are capable of crawling of soft areas without sinking in, where a tire machine has to much wieght over each individual tire. So on snow/ice, a tire machine has more wieght hitting the ground compared to a track machine. The only time a track machine is going to puch more snow is if its off road. We move snow with 8 cat track machines and 2 cat tire machines. Every operator begs for the tires vs. the tracks.
bonanno23 Do you like those 4 in 1 buckets?? Are they that much more useful than a standard bucket? I run a toothed bucket and use a 6 way blade for grading.
I couldn't imagine life without one. We don't even take the regular bucket from the dealer when we get a new machine. We have some with teeth but mostly just straight cutting edges. I have a 4-in-1 with teach on my Tak. Absolutely love it. Never tried a 6 way blade. we have a D4 and D5 for our smaller grading jobs. How do you like the blade on your skid-steer?
It took a some getting used to when I first got it. Now i can't be without it. Winter time like now I use it for plowing snow. I made a few mods to the valving to make it a fully floating blade for snow. Then in the spring I'll switch it back to full hydraulic control for dirt. I also had to extend the top of the blade about 10 inches because of overspill
"Berco actually manufactures the whole undercarriage for Komatsu and Deere. Contrary to what Deere will try to tell you it was introduced on Komatsu’s machine in Europe for well over a year before Deere launched their CTLs. The other OEMs with the exception of CAT and Takeuchi use primarily Berco components, but have their frames built by different suppliers. CAT’s CTL rails and components are actually South Korean and in November CAT purchased the company that was manufacturing for them- " Takeuchi's frames are part of the machine. They are designed and built as a tracked machine. The tub and track frames are welded not bolted on like the other manufacturers.
Very true. Takeuchi and Terex/ASV are the only ones to build a purpose-built track machine from the ground up.
I've seen a polar tread video on youtube and was truly impressed. Another track machine that I really like is the ASV models.
CTL for snow pushing Hey all; We have a JD 322 CTL we use at work for small snow removal jobs. Yes, I hear what you're saying about tires but with a little care and coaxing, using a one size larger smooth lip bucket we have pretty good success clearing and stock piling the snow in our yard.
ASV (terex) are the only ctls that I would use to push snow. The ASV track was developed for snow and then I believe cat purchased the rights or stole the style. I can tell you for a fact that my Gehl CTL is TERRIBLE in snow. I chose not to plow snow with it commercially because it was so bad. It is the same machine as the Takeuchi and Mustang CTL's so cross those off the list. Since ASV was purchased by Terex I would be hesitant to buy one. The dealer network has shriveled and I personally would have to drive an hour and half before I see a dealer. If you have a Terex dealer close I would try out one of their machines or buy an older ASV (they are going for cheap). Otherwise I would only buy a Cat CTL to push snow. UNCLE T