Finally found the ball bearing with the cage missing, we had found the bearing cage in the filter/screen and went looking, disassembled the entire transmission and finally found the bad bearing. The question I have is, the dozer has about 3700 hours on it, I've owned it since it had 1500 hours, so I can't verify the bearings are original, it appeared to me the covers have been off before, mainly the front cover for whatever reason. Does anyone have any idea why the cage around the balls would come off and not a total failure, the balls are still in it and working, which leads to the next question, would you replace every bearing in the transmission, just those lower in elevation of the failed bearing, or what? The cage parts fell into the ring and pinion gear on one side and I'm now replacing those parts, and bearings, but would you do the bearings in the other side as well on the other final drive, how much or how little would you replace. How about the clutch packs, up until failure it was functioning fine, do I tear them down as well, or put them back in again as is? Any insight on this would be appreciated. When the failure happened, somehow it blew the drive flex plate apart in the torque converter, blew the driveshaft seal out of the torque, we tore that down and figured a bearing failed in that, they were good and we replaced them anyhow, along with new seals and a new flex plate, and went into the rear end, after discovering parts of a ball bearing cage in that, which had to come from the transmission, which is where I'm at now.
Not sure if I have missed an earlier post on this problem Randy88? IMHO the bearing failure on it's own would not have caused the flexplate problem. Even if the bearing cage had locked up the transmission, it would be the same as putting the convertor into a full stall, which is same as applying the brakes. Was there some type of problem in the convertor? What type of nuts were on the flexplate, hex that were spot welded or square ones that were welded a little more crudely? With regards the transmission problem, was it the centre ball bearing for one of the clutch shafts that the cage broke on? Did it have all little square spacers between all the balls that let go? May just be a fault with the design of that bearing, as the last 1150D I did had the same failure...... If I were doing the job, all new bearings would be going in & the clutch packs would all be inspected, cleaned & resealed at least. Depending on how long the cage has been breaking up, some trash may have found it's way into the clutch packs, particularly the pistons. Regards doing the other final drive, it depends on budget I guess. With time & money spent on the rest of the job, I would be doing it, that's if customer wanted a warranty. Come back with some answers as I am very curious about that flexplate issue. Any Pics?
Alrman, this is a long story, it broke last summer when my youngest son was running it, my oldest son wanted to work on it in his spare time on weekends, so lacking time myself, I turned it over to him, my younger boy made comment to me it was doing strange things, he explained it, but I was busy and told him to go back and run it some more to get me some more information on it to tell what was going on, he came back a few minutes later and said, it quit and there's oil everywhere, he's pretty young and I was patient, basically I had no idea what happened either, my oldest son showed up and I told him, figure it out I'm busy, got a second cat for the younger one to run, and we kept working. It blew the drive shaft oil seal out and most of the oil, my oldest boy had to add oil to even get it to move to figure out what was wrong, which was pointless, but anyhow, it was making a quite a racket on start up, moved with hesitation, did a few forward and back moves, and then everything quit, turns out it blew the flex plate to pieces, why I just figured a bearing or something went out and it was in the torque somewhere, either that or a bad flex plate. Weeks to months had gone by during the whole process, torque was removed, the flex plate was shattered and ground up pretty badly, nothing was wrong in the torque at all, besides the oil seal blown, not sure why any of it took place to be honest, yes even if things locked up its just like a stall test, shouldn't have wiped out the flex plate period unless it was cracked or fatigued anyhow was what the local dealer told me. On further inspection, there was a bearing cage in the suction filter housing and I knew it had to come from the transmission, which turns out it did, off the left main shaft mid case bearing, right above and slightly ahead of the ring and pinion gears, which dropped the stuff into the those and wiped them out, broke two teeth off the ring gear, ground the pinion gear pretty badly, they're junk anyhow. I'm doing the transmission, my son did the torque, I only helped line the bolts back up for that to be reinstalled, never really looked at it myself other than the parts he took out, he did new bearings, seals and flex plate and put it back in. Now its sitting in the back of my shop, over my service pit backed in and too much stuff in front to move, so we're doing this job with transmission still in machine, finals still on, not sure its the smart thing or not, but if I have to take it out, it'll be a late summers project, another long story, but for now I can't get it out of the shop to move. I had never really seen those types of ball bearings before expect in case dozers. It took the cage fitted between the balls, that hold them equally spaced apart and spit it out and the balls are still intact, luckily, and all the rest look new, why just one and just the cage? It has the fingers that fit between the balls and are linked together and the main linking portion is on one side of the bearing and the fingers are on the other side of the bearing. Is there another bearing to replace them with other than these same bearings, if so where do you get them from? As for the flex plate, I'd have to ask my son what it looked like, I never looked that closely at it, he's at work now, but I'll ask him in the next few days when he has time, all we were told is it happens by the local dealer, sounded strange to me, but can't argue with them. It was bolted onto the torque and also the flywheel and shredded the center between the two, new one for me, but? As for pictures, I'm techo illiterate, maybe my son had some of the flexplate, I can maybe get one of the kids to do some of the cage parts, and bearing, I'll ask if my techo daughter is coming home from college anytime soon and can do that for me. I've tried to learn, but I have no idea what any of the terms I'm told mean, as far as camera, computer hookups, downsizing or any of that, I gave it up and my daughter does it if she's around and she takes them with her smart phone. As for the torque and why, I've got no idea, just a coincidence maybe at the same time, about to fail anyhow and debris in the gears causing a sudden lockup, did it in, a seal that was leaking anyhow and just blew out the rest of the way, I'm not sure any insight you have, I"m open to hear.
Here's a pic of the one I prepared earlier. Same deal, but found bearing cage in screen during normal servicing. Luckily it did no real other damage, although we did find other problems that needed attention. I replaced all the bearings using a quality brand sourced at local bearing supplier. They had a different cage design, I reasoned.."so they must be better" Even though this is an older model, I'm sure this bearing was still a factory fit. Yours very well may be also - same supplier to JI, I would wager. I cant believe you have down to this stage & it's still bolted into the chassis :spaz
Hey that looks very familiar, did you slip into my shop and snap the photo, as for still being in the chassis, not for very much longer, seems I read the manual slightly wrong and the top shaft on the finals come out via the inside towards the transmission, and not via sliding it outside towards the track, oops, now we get to take the finals and transmission out together, which brings about the next set of questions, seeing how I don't have a forklift that'll pick it up, nor get in the shop where it sits anyhow, any ideas how to make a rolling jack, lift, angle it just right and lower it jack arrangement, to remove the units so I can continue, all I've done so far today is stare at it and say oh sh*t plan a isn't working and I"m not sure what plan b is. We did one of my 850's a few years back and did it all inframe, wasn't the most pleasant job, but with a service pit, life was far easier than without, this one it seems isn't quite the same process once we got this far. It also seems now that I actually looked, its got one new final on it, the color isn't the same as the other side or transmission, something I never noticed till today, that or I had forgotten about. Does anyone know where to get aftermarket new parts from, along with bearings and gaskets, I asked my local dealer and had to ask three times if the amount quoted was just the gaskets and bearings, no other parts, with the new parts I know I'll need, and the torque bearings I've already put in, this repair just got my attention, in a very big way. Do you have pictures of the different style bearings you put in, this makes two bearing failures in four years, on the same location and kind of bearing in my case dozers, all with what I'd call lower hour units from the same problem, one was on my 850 and now one of my 1150's, I'm thinking its time to try something different.
I cant recall 100%, but I think you can replace the crownwheel without removing the final drive. Sorry I don't have pics of the new bearings - the one that failed was a SKF made in Italy - yours the same? - Normally a trusted brand Generally we have to trust the big names, thats all I can suggest. I'm not sure you will get the gaskets & clutch pack seals anywhere but genuine CNH. Bearings & normal type oil seals at yokes & final drives (even the duo cones) you will buy at any bearing supplier. The pinion bearings are sometimes a problem to source - genuine maybe required = $$$$. Crownwheel & pinions should be available aftermarket - google the part numbers (they are LH & RH) - I've seen good & bad quality aftermarket, so there may be an element of risk involved - I usually tell the customer the facts & let them decide what to use. $$$ often control the decision..... & my warranty...... re transmission removal, I have fabricated a cradle/stand which attatches to a large floor jack. The transmissions are heavy at the front so be sure to build supports there. Combine with a couple of handles that screw into the final drives to steady the operation. A forklift has been used many times before. I prefer the jack & cradle method.
Alrman, could you take a picture of the cradle you built, and the jack you use, it would save a lot of design/redesign on my part, I'll buy a good floor jack, I need one anyhow, but was trying to figure out how to do the cradle and keep it from tipping on its own but tip it to get it out. I've been sitting here thinking how to make a four caster roller stand and get all the up/down, tilt fabricated into it, even using bottle jacks, I'm not getting it to figure out quite right. Everyone I've called so far uses a forklift and just sits the transmission on it and lowers it down, by myself basically, I"m not liking that idea at all, not to mention, I don't have access to any forklift capable of lifting it anyhow. As for aftermarket, they are telling me nobody makes them anymore, but want to sell me used, I'm not sure I want to go that route yet. as for bearings and seals and gaskets, its only genuine so far that I can find. As for removing the crownwheel or ring gear is what I'd call it, if the pinion shaft was out, you could, but the ring gear needs to be removed first and that can't be done they tell me with the pinion gear/shaft still in place, I'm thinking they might be right after looking at it, but I haven't tried yet either, three so far have said the final needs to come off first to get the pinion shaft out, so back to thinking on how to remove the transmission and finals as a unit. On the smaller 850's the case was different and you could do it all without removing any transmission or finals, which I did, not a pleasant task, but possible and doable, again at that time I didn't have a forklift or cradle or stand to do it with, [this seems to be a continuing problem we're going to solve shortly]. Anyhow thanks for any and all input on my problem at hand.
Most of the time if there was any chance of going in the trans we would brake the tracks to start, parking it so the forklift can get in behind it for removel. Case has a final drive tool to remove the final in the frame, we had a H beam that we chained to the rops with a trolley that we would slide the final back to do ring gear and pinion in frame also while changing shims. The trans can also be removed with a autocrane or backhoe, remove the sweeps and the rops, after seat/battery box area cleared, run your chains down around the trans, remove the frame bolts and lower it down, move your chain to the outside frame across the back, lean it and remove. Set the control valve off the top if needed also. You pit can make it nice but i have found most of the time it's just as fast to set them out and put them on a stand when you start working on the brake end. What is you S/N by chance?
Hows the progress going here Randy88?? Keep us all updated... opcorn
Very slowly, I had to buy the tool to measure for the ring and pinion gears to know what shims I needed, I found that and all the rest of the speciality tools on ebay, and three weeks later they just showed up, all the parts are now in and we can finally go back at it, this weekend we're finishing up on my shop door and the first of next week its scheduled to work on the dozer again, if something more pressing doesn't show up or more complications come up with it. I'll keep you all posted on the slow progress of this project. I like the popcorn eating figure, its only missing the tv to watch and the couch to sit on and it would be perfect.
I can't believe you found that tool on Ebay! Was it the CAS-1105A? I looked up the listing.... if it was the same one from Michigan, you got a bargain!
Yes to both the tool and where it came from, I priced that tool alone new from case and they wanted almost 1600 bucks for it, I had to ask three times, then called another store to see if they'd made a mistake, was told the same every time, I about had heat failure, the local store had to have one of the mechanics come along with the tool, they quoted me a grand for the trip, using it, and the trip back, so we went shopping and bought the whole package from the guy in michigan, now I even have the clamps to put on the clutch packs to keep them together when installing them, if I remember right, we had a hard time doing my 850 that time without them, so a weeks worth of shopping and three weeks to get, was worth the wait. I don't know how you do the measuring if you have the tool or do the guess pretty close method, but I was not coming up with a cheap plan B for doing the measuring, I'd been looking all winter for those tools, I was kinda hoping to rent just the tools for a few hundred bucks, ended up buying them for not much more than that.
I had my machine shop guy make me one, years ago. Would never dream of buying one from CNH. The tools in the ebay listing look unused ... where do these guys get a hold of this stuff ??
I was about to that point too, have a machine shop make me one too, but then this came along, the guy that sold the stuff was a mechanic and his dad owned the dealership, when the store closed, these parts were in inventory he ended up with after the sale and his fathers death, he's been selling them off a little at a time. Most of the tools people found are from dealers who sold out and bought them on the sale, used them at some point then sold them off over time. Back in the 80's when case was bought out as was IH and they merged, many dealerships closed after the merger and the construction line was split off from the ag stores, my local store used to sell both, but ended up with only the ag portion, they now have the speciality tools for the construction line, just like most stores did back in the day, when the merger went through, hundreds of case stores sold out and quit, that's where all the tools sold today used came from, those sales or from buyouts of stores since, a store is sold and now sells another brand of equipment, and then all the speciality tools from the old brand are sold off to whoever will buy them one lump sum, usually to an independent mechanic who needs them. A lot of the speciality tools are in the hands of independent mechanics, and now those are either too old to do the work or they have passed away and now the kids end up with them, have no need for them let alone know what they are for and want to liquidate them and turn them into cash. This is exactly how I bought my track press and all the press equipment an independent used to own, his son ended up with all his dads stuff after his death and had no idea what any of it did or was used for, so I offered the son one lump sum for all the press related equipment, I'd have bought all the speciality tools for cat, case, komatsu, allias, new holland and many others too, but the son had sold them all at a local auction for a few hundred bucks not knowing what any of it was used for, let alone what any of it was worth, it far more common here in the states than you'd think. I know of several independent mechanics today who are in their 80-90's but won't sell any of their speciality tools or tools for that matter, they won't part them them, not that I can blame them, but their kids have no idea what any of its for let alone what to do with any of it after their dad dies, so its sold off to whoever offers them something for it, they'd collected and bought the stuff over decades of time and had finally got what they needed and wanted and now will die owning the stuff, in 99.9% of the cases, the kids never wrenched anything ever. There are hundreds or thousands of speciality tools laying in sheds and garages and basements all over the place, but almost all of the current owners have no idea what any of it is or does, it might have a number stamped on it somewhere and the current owners would have no idea what those numbers mean, only a mechanic who's used them would know. I've been to farm sales, and household sales where speciality tools were sold either in one piece or cut up or in boxes of junk sold for a dollar or two, and the buyer took a look at them and threw them away, they wanted whatever else was in the box. A small percentage of the tools ever make it back into hands of those that know what they are for or can use them. Sorry for the long winded explaination.
Closed down dealership sales are so rare here that they are almost non existent. We have only 6 states & 2 territories (8 states) & a handful of dealers in each, even fewer, maybe 1 or 2, in the smaller states. The dealerships never really close down, they are usually sold to new owners, as the manufacturers still need a presence in the area. I would guess that if a Case dealer closed down here, that CNH Australia would not allow those top secret tools ever to be sold into the hands of any of us infidel independants.:avid Trying to buy specialized tools over the counter here is near impossible, even if anyone could afford it..... Don't even think of buying any sort of electronic diagnostic tool, they are not for sale :nono
gidday fellows , Re the bearing failure , if this bearing is the weak point in these trans what would be wrong with fitting a roller bearing in instead of the ballbearing cheers n beers Bob P/S , would this be low range and or first gear shaft being the heavyest loaded shaft ??
Alrman, just out of curiosity, how many independent fix it guys are there over there, just a couple or since its such a large area with so few dealerships, there are a lot.
Hard to say how many Randy88, I am in a city & I often get told when people ring me, that they are having trouble locating someone to do their work for them.... (often cause they are slow payers ) When you look through the phonebook there are not really very many that advertise. Some guys are contracted to quarries or large hire companies & so don't have to advertise. Others just rely on word of mouth to find work. It's pretty hard to say how many :beatsme I think the ratio of repairers does get better in the rural areas, simply as there is less dealer support, along with big country areas with a lower population & still a need for things to be fixed. The rural guys are probably more versatile & work on a bigger range of equipment, some not so specialized, some not technicaly trained,but they get things done. Then there are the people in the 'outback', some of them are a special breed - they have to look after themselves & sort their own problems as any help is often hundreds of kilometers away. They can fix their horse & their dozer, helecopter, road train etc - as well! Hey greeniron, I would say that this bearing is not nessesarily a weak point in these transmissions. As mentioned earlier, I think it is more of a faulty bearing supply. The bearing in question is a support bearing near the middle of a long shaft with 4 clutch packs fitted to it. It lives in between low & high range, but does not really have a 'load' on it that is affected more, by one gear range selection or another. Why don't we fit a roller bearing insted of a ball?........ I've never really looked into the possibility, if there was a bearing that would fit precisely ..... but, if such a bearing was fitted & failed, :spaz it's a REALLY BIG job to fix it & I don't want to pay for it & neither would my customer. I have been inside this model transmission that have done 10,000 - 20,000 hrs & they are still intact, - like I say it's not a bearing design problem more a quality problem.
Second the bearing quality problem, remember doing a couple of these that had bearing fail after fairly low hours after supposed rebuilds One had bits of bearing jammed in clutch pack. Talked to local bearing expert and showed him failed bearings his view was that bearings fitted were bit light for job and advised bearings same dimensions but higher load capacity. Was a while ago now
A progress update, in between all the jobs, rain and miserable weather we've had this spring, we now have the transmission assembled, and back in the dozer, now all that is left is to finish hooking up the driveline and the tracks back on. We plan to run the dozer without any of the tracks on to make sure it runs and sounds right before final assembly, just have not had time to get that far, been too busy playing in the mud for customers who are trying to finish up planting. Its been a long drawn out process to say the least, but at least now there is hope. And for a note, the book was wrong, when measuring back lash on the ring and pinion gear, you need all the housing bolts in and torqued down not just four on each side to get an accurate measurement of the backlash. Something we learned along the way, is the torque specs on the transmission cover bolts in the book is also wrong, 1/2 inch grade 5 bolts are not torqued to 130 foot lbs. of torque, several other torque specs are also wrong in the book in regards to bolts as well, just in case someone wanted to know if reading the same manual.
With some setbacks we got the dozer up and running and have been using it, now we're fighting oil leaks on hoses, got everything cured except those hoses that run from the suction tube on the transmission to the filter housing and the equalizer tube between the torque and the transmssion, the fittings are not long enough to put two clamps on side by side, I've had them off now about four times and put new hoses on three times, but I need to completely drain everything first. Has anyone got any ideas other than standard hose clamps what to use to keep them from leaking, I was thinking of converting them over the a JIC flare style instead of hose clamps, anyone done it before or how do you keep them from drippping oil after x number of hours of vibration? Anybody ever converted the tranmssion filter housing over from that element style to a spin on before my filter head is chipped and drips oil and before buying a new one, it sure would be nice to just use a spin on filter instead. Other than that it works great and pushes nicely and sure is nice to have running again, I forgot how much I missed that dozer, now to dry up the drips of oil that drive me crazy, for some reason I just can't stand to see oil dripping anywhere, call it a pet peeve but I like to see everthing dusty dry.