Winter before last, I forgot to put antifreeze in our 1845C skid steer. Have had it 13 years and am just getting back to trying to repair it. We had a very mild winter in 2014/2015 and am surprised at the damage. This skid steer has been utterly dependable for the 13 years I've had it notwithstanding the usual wear and tear. I really want to get this running again as I have work to do around our property. The ice blew out a freeze plug, the oil filter/cooler assembly and water pump. I replaced all this. It starts okay and seems to run okay (no weird noises or anything else), but it pukes out a LOT of milky water/oil on the lower right/front corner. I see what looks like a breather tube (??) that comes out near the top of the block and goes down the side to near the bottom of the oil pan. I assume that is where the stuff is coming out. Everything else looks okay on the right side of the block. Is the head gasket maybe shot or is something potentially worse inside? Maybe when the weather warmed up and the ice melted, water got into the oil passages due to the damage oil filter/cooler assembly and maybe it's just due to water + oil being pumped around? Maybe there is a lot of water sitting on top of the oil in the oil pan that is getting puked out?? Could it just be a case of draining what's in the oil pan, flushing it and putting in new oil + filter? I've rebuilt a number of gas engines but I know next to squat about diesel engines. I'd hate to have to pull the head off or worse, the whole engine out. I have found that the engine is a basic Cummins unit used in pickup trucks which is good to know. I do not have an engine manual and the original Case parts manual isn't a big help for repairs & troubleshooting. Thanks!
Have you changed the oil? Probably a head gasket, but could be a cracked head. Either way, it's not going to be an easy fix.
Thank you for the reply. I feel like I am flying blind on this situation. No, I am going to try changing the oil today. Just need to go get 10 quarts of cheap oil first. If I find much more than 10 quarts of water/oil, maybe that would indicate something? Have not found anything on removing a head or working on an 1845C engine on the internet, but there is some info. on a Cummins 3.9 4BT that I assume will help. I read somewhere that the heads are quite heavy and not easy to lift vertically by hand. I started to pull the cab forward to make for better access than discovered how heavy it is. It's just so cramped in there. I have it inside our garage with 9' ceiling and can't raise the arms much even if the engine was able to run. Maybe I could disconnect the hydraulics and jack the arm(s) up as much as possible to get better access? The expanding ice sure pushed out and buckled the thick steel plate on the filter/cooler ass'y. I have to wonder what forces there were elsewhere that may have seriously damaged something.
You might have got lucky and the water got into the oil through the oil cooler. You can pressurize the cooling system through the overflow tube usually, give it a LITTLE shot of air if you don't have a regulator. Then you can loosen the plug on the drain pan and see if straight oil comes out or water, leave the pressure on for an hour and you might get water out at that point telling you something is still leaking. You can do this after you've drained the oil, with the plug out.
I am crossing my fingers, repenting any and all sins in my lifetime, etc.... I have a great compressor setup so low psi air is easy. The overflow hose beside the oil pan? I assume the dipstick tube would work too?? The way I am thinking and looking at what was damaged, it would have been easy for oil and water to have gotten mixed. The rad had some thinner looking milky stuff about 1/2 way through draining it, then the last little bit was fairly clear again. The dipstick is heavily coated in milky oil + water. If the crankcase is completely coated in it, how would you flush it clean?
From your description that's the blowby vent tube coming off the lifter cover on the side of the block. Let it drain overnight, put the plug in and some cheap oil, add a quart of ATF, cheap oil filter, and try running it, if the water level stays up and the oil level stays down, get if up to temp good and then drain it again, new oil and filter again, cross your fingers.
I just drained about 1 gal. of clear water out of the oil pan first. Then came about 6 gal of milky oil/water. Plus I lost 1-2 gal. on the ground last year when I tried to get it going again. My manual says the engine takes 11 quarts. That means the engine had one heck of a lot of water sitting inside it and would explain why a lot got blown out the vent pipe. I have been expecting serious damage for the past year and maybe it'll be okay after all. Off to get some cheap oil & filter. With any luck this thing may be running tomorrow. What does the ATF do? Thin the oil a bit or does it have something in it that will help flush the engine?
ATF will usually help with the cleaning, or at least that's what the "old guys" that were younger than I am now used to tell me....
No, I meant add air pressure to the cooling system through the overflow hose on the radiator, or where ever the radiator cap is. There's USUALLY a one way flapper inside the cap that will let coolant back from the overflow bottle. ATF has a different detergent and additive package than motor oil, that's optional, but it can't hurt at this point. In hindsight, obviously you should have drained the oil immediately when you noticed the damage. I'd still try the cooling system pressure test in the morning after the oil has all drained out. Easier than an oil change, of course you'll still do the oil change if it does hold pressure, don't bother if it leaks water out the oil pan.
I got the engine running today. It started up immediately and it seems fine, no leaks anywhere that I can see and no odd noises. Tomorrow I will run it until it's warmed up and then drain the oil and put new in. Will try the pressure test too. Hopefully it is back to it's former self and will keep going for years to come. Yes I should have drained the oil when I first found the damage but I had erroneously assumed the engine was toast and needed a major rebuild or replacement. Thanks for the help!
Did you drain the oil/water and put new oil in before you started it? Running it with the water in the oil could cause damage that wasn't there to begin with. Personally, I think I'd get a mechanic to check out the engine before I started it and that might include pulling the heads. It would be much cheaper than an engine rebuild because there was internal damage you couldn't see.
It's now down to a tear down. You haven't said much about the engine type, but presumably a wet sleeve engine. There's a chance it's a replaceable part, but likely the water jacket is busted inside either the block or head. I had a 427 Chevy truck engine rebuilt several years ago. I bought anti freeze for it, but when I reached for it only one gallon was left. It was April, so a gallon was enough for several months. I bought more anti freeze. In October I asked my 28 year old son if he ever put anti freeze in it. He was sure he had. I asked him to test it. A day or two later I asked how it tested. He said the bulb on the hydrometer was cracked, we'd need a new one. I bought a new one, but through three of us each presuming the other had checked it, it never got checked. By November it was busted. In my truck it was the back side of where the freeze plug was blown a crack to the crankcase. The second block was less costly than the first. My engine builder had a block he said he'd been storing many years, no market for these blocks anymore. He bored the new block for $500. & threw in the core. There are people who repair blocks. If you don't get an expert with correct equipment to fix, opt for a used block. Willie
I did drain the sump yesterday before refilling it with some cheap oil along with a quart of ATF before testing it. It started up okay right after refilling it but this morning I've discovered there is some seriously wrong as the entire contents of the rad has dumped into the engine and into the sump. I just drained something like 3-4 gallons of water before getting some milky oil to show up. It's more than just a blown head gasket. Our skid steer has over 5,000 hours on it and I've put maybe 2200 hours on it after I bought it used in 2003. It's kinda tired overall and isn't worth putting much more money into it. I had a diesel mechanic tell me a couple of years ago it's only worth a few thousand $$ at auction (when it was still running okay) and I've already spent nearly $1K in parts to repair the ice damage. So now it's time to pull the engine and see what there is to see. Just heading off to rent an engine hoist. If an engine rebuild isn't viable, where would I look for a used Cummins 3.9 4B engine or block? Older Dodge pickups with a Cummins were the 4BT turbo version? If I found a 4BT engine, can I just pull the turbo off and swap over any needed pieces from our skid steer or swap over our complete head? Are there pick 'n pulls for heavy equipment?
Just a guess but if it pushed a freeze plug out I would check oil cooler out to see if it froze and broke it. You dont have to take much off of engine to get it out.
I replaced that already last year along with the water pump that were both damaged. Nothing else looks damaged externally. Not sure what to expect inside when I pull it apart.
I have a Case backhoe, and a Dresser TD7G dozer with identical 4BT engines. There are a multitude of machines using it. I thought it was 390 Cubic inch. I think now it's 3900 CC. Case, and Dresser used them turned up or down, or added turbo. Both of mine are naturally aspirated, rated at 70 HP. It is a favorite of builders retrofitting Jeeps, and early Power Wagons. Its compact shape, ability to run hundreds of thousands of miles, and be rebuilt in the machine make it a favorite. Willie
How far into Canada are you? I'm always up for another project?
Dodge used the 6BT, I'm not aware of any 4BT in pickups. Lots of them around, Ebay might be your friend.
We're on the mild weather side of Canada, just outside of Vancouver, BC. VT would be a bit of a drive...
Got the engine out today. Getting the bolts out of the two front engine mounts was not fun, but otherwise a straightforward job. I removed the oil pan and everything appears to be fine in there so now it's onto removing the head. I don't want to touch it though without a manual. I'd hate to mess up the timing or something else. I think a shop manual is available online?
I like you had never touched a diesel before either. While borrowing a friends Case backhoe a timing cover bolt backed out and took out the gearing and snapped the camshaft. Same engine I believe... not a wet sleeve engine. Was very easy to work on. I got a CD of the parts and engine manual on eBay. I got all the parts to rebuild it from Maxi Force Diesel in Florida. You can look them up online. I would suspect that you have a cracked block.
A cracked block had crossed my mind and wouldn't be surprised but don't want to get depressed yet until I know for sure. For the brief period I test ran the engine, it appeared to run normal. None of the typical signs/symptoms of a cracked block except for the oil and water mixing together but that *could* be a head gasket failure. If the head gasket was damaged enough to allow water & oil to mix as quickly as it is, wouldn't that mean the engine would be difficult to start due to the higher compression a diesel needs? It was starting quickly and easily. I discovered some Cummins engine parts are available at auto parts stores. That's where I got the water pump for ex. I wish I could just find a short block somewhere at a decent price and forget about trying to rebuild this one. With all the talk out there about how common these engines are, I'm not sure where to go looking for a used one. We have a neighbor up the street that is the mechanic for an excavating company and I may try him. Someone in Seattle on Craigslist had a used engine for sale but it looks like it sold already.
There are lots of places water is separated from oil by a thin layer of cast iron. I'm not sure about this engine. It's pretty common for diesels to have wet sleeves. I have a manual for this engine, I'll find time to look. A crack is not likely to affect the running, except that ethylene glycol is poison to bearings. Tear it down, you might get lucky. Odds are strong that either the head, or block are cracked. Plenty of less expensive things might be wrong, don't count on it. Willie
There are freeze plugs under each rocker cover & behind the engine side cover - the injector pump will need to be removed to gain access. These are supposed to push out in this situation, which is probably what has occurred.....
^^^Winner. ^^^ I removed the side cover and this is what I found in the photo. One of the freeze plugs was almost falling right out. The other plug seems fine. You can see where the water was running down and getting through at least one of the oil return passages. After all the work to get this far and it's just a part worth about a $1 (probably like $100 at Case). There are only 2 freeze plugs behind the cover. I was going to remove the injector pump until I discovered it is gear driven and would involve taking the gear off and maybe messing up the timing. The freeze plug on the front of the block is intact and I can't see where there'd be any others. You can see where there is rust on top of the rockers from the water. I guess the water was getting pumped up into the rockers via the pushrod holes in the head. I've got some milky oil to clean out in some places like in the tappets and under the rocker covers. The million dollar question is, is this one freeze plug all there is to fix and then the engine will be okay? Could the head gasket be damaged?? I sure would rather avoid taking the head off if I can. I guess it could always be removed with the engine back in place?
Get a new core plug sealed in there and then rig up some plugs for the radiator hoses, fill to top with water, if no obvious leaks, seal the top hose and give her about 10 psi of air. If it passes that test, you should be about 90% sure it's okay. :my2c
You are a lucky man. "Freeze" plugs were popped in my engine but cast iron was also broken. I think these plugs are serving other purposes, by the time one of these pushes out the coolant is already solid. It expands everywhere, pushing with a force the fragile, unbending iron can't survive. Willie
Am I the only one who does not like the term "Freeze Plug"? I know it is a common term and in this case ( no pun intended! ) it appears that freezing water did push one out. The real purpose of these plugs have nothing to do with protecting an engine from poor maintenance of the cooling system. The real purpose is to aid in the casing of the engine block and other components. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_plug Sand cores are used to form the internal cavities when the engine block or cylinder head(s) is cast. These cavities are usually the coolant passages. Holes are designed into the casting to support internal sand forms, and to facilitate the removal of the sand after the casting has cooled. Sorry if this sound s too fussy but hate to see wrong information repeated. Hope the 1845C does survive this problem, I like those machines!
ksh is bang on the money and he's not alone....... Core plugs are necessary in complex iron/steel castings such as cylinder blocks because the casting requires sand cores to be placed inside it in order to create the various internal voids. After the casting has cooled the core plug holes are the locations from where the foundry sand is removed leaving the void(s) inside the casting. The only reason they pop out when the coolant freezes is simply because it takes less force for the ice to push out the core plug than it does to push out through the wall of the cylinder block. They are NOT designed to be a type of fuse to protect the cylinder block in case of freezing.
I seem to have gotten lucky. I installed a new core plug and pressurized the cooling system to 10 psi. This morning, about 12 hours later, it's reading 8 psi. Could be a small leak in the setup I made up to pressurize the engine, or in part because the temp. dropped overnight. Am going to put the engine back in. I went to Case to get a new core plug. The counter guy called it a freeze plug. I would have had to order a truckload of them at $11 per each. No thanks. Phoned Cummins and the guy called it a frost plug. I went to Cummins and the lady at the counter called it something else (didn't catch the term) and gave me the plug for free. However, when I went back to get a few measly gaskets, those cost over $200. On the bright side of all this, the engine and rest of the loader are getting a long needed cleaning.