Hoping someone with more experience can get me going in the right direction. I have a Case 450b with a turbo 207. It has 1200 hours. I aquired the machine 4 years ago, and a couple years ago, after very little use, we noticed some condensation mud on the dipstick guide washer. It has since gone through coolant and gave me a milkshake in the block. I have searched the forum, but really cant find a strong comparable past symptom from another member. Here are my symptoms/ findings after changing oil and adding water to the radiator. 1. No oil in the radiator 2. No bubbles in the radiator coolant after running, but I did not let the engine get to operating temperature either if that matters. 3. Combustion gas / bubbles in the oil 4. Lots of light grey smoke on start up and lightens up after a bit but does not clear up. 5. Applied pressure to the radiator, cannot get past 11 lbs or so and back to zero psi in 10 seconds. 6. The 3 freeze plugs on the top of the head look shiny and were not leaking coolant under pressure. Am hoping that I wont have to take the 1k pound counterweight off to pull the oil pan! Look forward to your thoughts.
I think the next step is checking the engine oil cooler oil for leakage. If it is OK, then the oil pan removal would be next. Removing the counterweight isn't too bad if you have a decent transmission jack and an impact wrench.
Thanks for chiming in Tinkerer. I take it, the oil cooler is nothing more than the first sized peice that the oil filter screws on to. The 2 hoses are coolant line and the oil is pumped through openings in the rear? If so, how would you test it? I took the oil filter off earlier and pressuring the cooling system and looked for coolant anywhere around the cooler, I found none.
I would have tested it like you did. The are a lot of possibilities for the milky oil. Leaking head gasket Cracked head Leaking cylinder liner(s) Take the valve cover off and and look for leaks with the engine up to operating temperature. Be sure the radiator has pressure in it. My money would be on a leaking cylinder liner tho. You will see it if you have the oil pan off and have the radiator pressurized.
Remove both hoses off the oil cooler and couple them together to bypass the cooler. Then use a pressure tester to see if the system holds
That makes a ton of sense Mike, will try this weekend, now I discovered an air leak at the filler neck on the radiator, gotta fix that first for an accurate test.
Another vote for a leaking liner seal.
Well, cant get coolant to leak from the oil pan drain hole, or the oil cooler with the filter off while under constant pressure. Gonna take the cooler off and pressure test in a bucket of water - looking for bubbles. Have a Jack enroute for pulling the counterweight next weekend. Will post more then.
If the cooler was leaking it would put oil into the radiator as oil pressure is higher than water pressure my bet is a liner or liner seal
Ok, finally got the oil pan off, here are some pics. It appears to bad sleeve seal / sleeves. I will pull the sleeves next. I have shop manual, but always looking for a time saving tip; do I need to pull the rops, radiator guard and shroud, radiator and water pump? And, this project was a good excuse to buy a new jack!
Only pull what you need to unbolt the cylinder head and remove it. Back in the day I handled those heads by hand.
If enough of the liner extends down past the block you may be able to pop them loose with a brass drift pin and 2 pound hammer.
The water pump may need to be removed. From factory there is an allen headed capscrew that goes through the water pump housing into the cylinder head - which must be removed to lift the head from the block. If the head has been removed before that bolt may not be there, but most likely it will be. Been a while since I've worked on a straight 450, but the water pump should be able to be pulled without removing the radiator.
I decided to just pull it all and do it right, glad I did too, coolant was starting to leak into the fan housing and the other gaskets looked tired, some bolts were hardly tight. A few questions; 1. The riser that has coolant in the picture, the water pump housing slips down into it, should there be standing coolant there, I disconnected both lines at the cooler. Do I need to pull the cam housing cover for inspection / other? 2. I am thinking that it would be a good idea to take the radiator into town and have a shop clean and test, I want to do it all now. 3. WHO THOUGHT OF THIS V-BELT SETUP? The service manual does not cover belt replacement, does anyone have any experience, could find any solutions when searching. First impressions indicate pulling the pump, but I wo der if that splines sleeve will kindly slide enough forward..... 4. The 450b was a Forestry Service unit, only has 1150 hours. Would you guys reccomend having the head gone through, and the Injectors as well ( I found out that there are no new replacement pistons for the 207T and some say a defective injectors could damage a piston). Thanks again to all.
1. Yes 2. Definitely 3. I know it has low hours but I would go ahead and pull the pump just to check the pump drive coupler. Look for spline wear and the rubber isolaters being cracked or severely worn. Those are a common problem 4. Since you will have it off, I would at least have a machine shop check it out. They may not need to do much.
207T (Turbo) pistons are available from CNH and many vendors on the internet. They are much cheaper if they are purchased in an overhaul kit that includes the sleeves. I think it is a waste of money to install new pistons into worn sleeves.
Thanks Tinkerer, I got the unavailable response from Yesterday's tractor and another vendor , will do more research, and open to anyones favorite source as well.
Call Dale Wiess. His family owned and sold 3 Case dealerships. He still sells OEM and aftermarket parts. Dale's Website
Ty Tinkerer, will do
@ Tinkere, Dale Weis is a super guy, but the pistons were never produced aftermarket, and case sold their last one 5 years ago. But that's o.k. The pistons and con-bearing are about the only differences doing an in-frame between the 207D / 207T. The liners have no rust or pitting anywhere, block has no visible cracks, 2 pistons have some vertical grooves between the top 2 rings, 1 has a slight chafe on the skirt. 2 top bearings are showing a little copper on 2 rods, one bearing has a small. groove in the center. If needed, I think the bearings can be made to order (for a price). The ring gap is .027, (.035) is out of tolerance. The crank journals are all perfect. I want the tractor to be dependable, and dont forsee using it more than 200 hours in the next 10 to 20 years. What would one of you experienced guys suggest for repairs? Should I use cooper spray on the head gasket?
Con bearing groove
That's an ugly groove in that con-rod bearing. The 450B was the first model that had a turbo on the motor. I would replace that 207T with a 207D. There is very little difference in horsepower. Finding replacement rod bearings is a real bummer. What do the crankshaft journals look like ? Not just the con-rods but the mains also. Engines and parts for the 207D's are available form many vendors on the internet. Do not use a power circular driven wire brush to clean the liners if you are going to reinstall them.
Thanks Clueless, all of your points, were what I was thinking as well.
I was wondering if you have made any progress on your project.
Thanks for the follow up. Waiting on more parts and the heads to come back. Been doing busy work, cleaning bolt threads, liners, pistons, gasketed surfaces, and staring at the hydraulic pump - hoping the belts will change themselves.... The belts , gaskets and O-rings came yesterday actually and will start putting the piston and liners in when the rod bearings come later this week. What is everyone using for O-ring lubricant ? The shop manual says 30 weight oil, but it seems opinions vary, maybe due to better methods or O-ring material? These are black O-rings. Funny, when I tore it apart, the liner lip was. 029 proud above the block, supposed to be no more than .005. There were no shims, but there was carbon build up between the liner lip and the step on the block. Will be interesting to see how the cleaned up sleeve measures.
The top of your rod bearings were probably short on oil a couple times. Don't know how cold the unit was started before but lots are started with the wrong oil at minus 20C, and the rods are starting to go dry before the oil makes it into the bearing. People forget that at even 700 RPM in the first 30 seconds the rod has been hit with cumbustion load 175 times, (every second stroke). When there is a pump hooked up to the front there is immediate hydraulic load, and more so if the hydraulic oil is thick. That is why I use synthetic 5W40, or 0W40 for oil all the time. Just a little info. Simon C
Simon, good advice there, fortunately we dont as cold as you (maybe -20 C) , but I am not moving snow with it, and it is a fair weather machine. But the cold weather start is a great topic for all to be aware of, I noticed a dip stick heater recently on a vendor's site, might be money well spent. Rod bearings arrived today, and the plastigauge is telling me good things...#1 & 2 cyl. Shown, #2 has the deep groove. Journals spared
Don't waste your money on a dipstick oil heater. It will be real easy to put a block heater in a freeze plug hole. I'm surprised there isn't one in it now. The parts book will show which hole it goes in. The sleeve "O" rings aren't fussy, oil is fine. The last time I put sleeves in a block I used a super thin coat of black RTV cement. I did the same in the groove in the top of the block that the sleeve sits in. Don't forget to anchor the sleeves in the block with a couple of bolts and washers. It will prevent them from being pushed up when you turn the crankshaft before the head is on. I'm with Simon about synthetic oil and cold start ups.
I was so tempted to do the RTV thin layer on the the top step, but was afraid of the liner height and it would dry before being secured by the pressure from head bolts, but it makes a ton of sense. Along that same "ounce of prevention" Tinkerer, I was planning on spraying a layer of copper on the head gasket, just for the same reason as the potential leak at the top of the liner.
Be careful with head gaskets and silicone. On some designs it can cause rubber border wall or built in O-rings to kick out or to kick into a hole. I usually want the head perfectly dry before putting it on a perfectly dry head gasket. Want block dry also. Have not worked on your engine , just be cautious. Simon C
I don't think there is a need for any kind of head gasket sealer. I have never seen any mention of it in a service manual. Especially when it has fire rings as part of the gasket. The RTV has a small window of time before it is cured. That is another reason I use bolts and washers to hold the sleeves down until the head is put on the block. It was a little concerning to see that combustion gas leakage on those sleeves in your pictures. I wonder if the correct head gasket was used. The hydraulic pump coupler may surprise you how easy it is to allow moving the pump enough to change the fan belts. Sometimes the splines are so badly worn that it easy to move.
Don't use silicone on a head gasket. You CAN use Copper Coat if you feel the need.
Wont use any silicone sealer, will probobly use copper spray, checked with the distributor- they said no problem. At people swear by it, some find it overkill, still contemplating. The front pump came off fairly easily, but the pressure side flare nuts were another story but got them off. Tinkere, I assumed that the securing bolts on top were to help the RTV to cure as well, I am past that point now, but would use that method if doing again, absolutely. I dont have a transfer pump to drain the transmission oil with hose, and I knew there will be be plenty to come out at the pump anyway, so I decided to drain it all on the RH inlet hose. This gave me a chance to view the oil as it flowed out. I have a clean 5 gallon bucket, a funnel inserted I to the " pop up pour spout" and a modified cleaned 1 gallon plastic jug converted into a "funnel slide" that will flow the oil to the funnel. Worked perfect. Loosen the hose after cleaning, slide down the hard pipe, control flow with allowed gap. Perhaps the RH hose could be left on near its end, and articulate the pump to the right after disconnecting the LH flare nut, but it would be close. And, with my luck, I could see the pump falling out of the hose and and making a huge mess. My .05. ( 2 cents adjusted for inflation ).
Myself and others have had troubles locating specifics on how to change the belts. Well here's how I did it. 1. Remove pump as in previous post page. 2. Remove pump and apply some anti-sieze to splines. 3. I found absolutely no need to remove the engine mount bracket or even loosen a bolt. I found it easiest to slide the belts In / out with the top flat side of the belt against the pulley bolt heads, refer to pictures. 4. Install the best belts known to man, dont care to repeat this.
I feel for you. I had to change the belt on my 580M backhoe a month ago and it was the same basic setup but nowhere near as bad as the dozer. It was a serpentine belt which was thinner and didn't require as much clearance. The pump is mounted on the frame rather than a bracket attached to the engine. There is a flexible coupling with bushing inserts. The coupling wouldn't slide on the splines so I loosened the bolts that held the pump and moved it forward enough to squeeze the belt in. I felt really stupid because a bad tensioner that takes 5 minutes to change cut the belt that took over two hours to change. And the only instructions I found for replacing the belt were in the OWNERS manual. Keep an eye on your tensioner because they have a rubber bushing that deteriorates over time and it will kill your belt.