i picked up a case 450b, motor runs strong but burns about 2 quarts of oil an hr maybe a little more. i did a compression test on it last night its around 400-375 machine isn't down on power really at all. I'm thinking maybe valve stem seals. or guides and seals? it smokes. so i believe it's burning it. just looking for any ideas on these old motors. i don't have a manual so I'm not sure if that compression number is within spec it seems like it would be. thanks for any input -Kutter
Does it have a lot of blue smoke? 2 quarts an hour is a lot. I'd suspect the piston rings are worn and the engine is need of a rebuild.
yes it's smoking. blue. i was thinking the same thing on rebuild. that compression just seems very good to me. it doesn't have much blow by out of the valve cover vent or the filler neck. not for burning 2 quarts an hr i could be wrong like i said i don't have the service manual for that machine
also have about 60lbs of oil pressure at wot. and around 35-40 at idle
Is 1 cylinder particularly low on compression compared to the others? You could adjust the valves and see if it helps.
it was the lowest of the 4. it was around 375 all the others we're around 400.
If the unit is turbo charged, you could pull the intake side off and look for excess oil at Turbo Inlet. Could also have leak on exhaust side. If you pull the exhaust manifold, you can see how much oil is in exhaust, and figure out which cylinder is dumping the most oil. Or keep buying oil and overhaul later. Simon C
i'd really like to go ahead and fix it while i have some down time before summer hits. its the non turbo unit
Could be valve guides leaking, or a bad cylinder. Manifold off would tell the story fast. Could have bad oil ring, but compression ring could still be firing the cylinder. You will have a better idea with manifold off. Simon C
i went ahead and pulled out i can see a bunch of oil on almost all the valve steams number 2 is the worse and the whole port is coverd in oil
The head will probably be worth taking off, and you will have a better view of cylinders unless you use a bore scope. Simon C
i planned on getting a bore scope tomorrow. do you think it would be covering the stems like that if it was coming from the bottom end?. thanks for all your help
Have changed valve seals on 2 Cat engines with head in place. Put air in through the glow plug hole and compressed the springs and changed the valve seals. Simon C
think i should go ahead and order the seals they're like 3 bucks each
Recent overhaul? Maybe rings are not seated?
im not sure if it was recently overhauled, i ran it for maybe 3 hrs thinking the same thing maybe alittle more didnt seem to help
I had a ford tractor doing that even after rebuild,machine shop had put the wrong valve seals in never knew how important guides and seals were.
At two quarts an hour I would think it would be skeeter fogging the area constantly and the oil would be drooling out the end of the exhaust, that's a LOT of oil to be disappearing from an engine in that amount of time. I would start by removing the exhaust manifold as mentioned above and look in there for excessive oil, I also would question the compression numbers, maybe get a different compression tester and redo that test. Next I'd pull the head and start investigating inside the engine. You should find excessive wear/damage somewhere within the engine if you go deep enough. Or like Simon C said, keep buying oil and run it...sooner or later the problem will present itself.
i pulled the exhaust manifold cylinder 2 is very oily on the valve stem,
Keep us posted, whatever it is if you keep using it something will present itself sooner rather than later. imho
i really think im gonna go ahead and try to fix it before i start really using it. its a very tight and strait old dozer i plan to use it on some jobs so i need it right hr meter says 2100hr and i believe that to be right
Where are you going to start, and what are you going to fix?
With the engine using that much oil in the time you stated, it;s either some one thing and should be obvious or...it's a combination of a little of everything, the engine is completely worn out and will need a complete engine rebuild.
If bottom end is in good shape, crankshaft wise, if it has removable liners and top of block is good, a inframe overhaul is an option. Start with valve seals or head off, your choice. Simon C
When the engine in my track loader was rebuilt it was using a lot of oil but had no smoke. Problem was the rings didn't seat. That's why I suspected the piston rings are the problem but could be valves as well.
Two quarts a hour?
I have a 4020 JD with the 404 diesel that I bought this summer with a bad engine which I knew when purchased, I planned on overhauling it myself but wanted to run it for a while as is, turns out after a couple days bush hogging I decided it was smoking too much and blowing fog out the crankcase vent I decided to shut it down and fix it. Although the engine used zero oil in the time I ran it, when I pulled it down and pulled the pistons most of the rings all fell out on the floor in pieces, turns out the engine had been dusted, everything was worn to the point of failure. It had 8400 hrs on the clock and although it showed evidence it had been apart before the valves where pounded up into the head at least a 16th of an inch. I doubt the head had ever been reworked. The morel of this rambling is the fact that even though the engine was in the shape it was in...it used 0 oil in the twenty hours or so I worked it. The OP said he's using 2 quarts an hour or a little more? I hope he finds the issue(s) and lets us all know what they are, 2 qts. or better an hour is a ton of oil to just disappear.
i went ahead and ordered valve stem seals to see if that fixes anything if it doesn't i plan to inframe it and probably get the head redone while i'm at it. the way i look at it burning that much oil it wont take long to be at the price of a rebuild kit. even if it stayed together the whole time
I agree.
About 2 quarts in 7 or 8 hours. Even the shop was shocked there was no smoke.
that is shocking. mine smokes like its burning 2 it that fast lol
What does it mean when you say an engine has been dusted? Sorry for the stupid question but I have never heard that before.
It means that the air intake was not sealed tight, the engine was sucking dusty air into the cylinder and the dust would stick to the walls and sand the cylinder. Basically worn out very fast as if there was no air filter. The engine will suck air in through the air filter or anything loose such as a hose or elbow. Or a failed filter could sand an engine also. Simon C
Was at a Ford tractor dealer maintenance seminar backnin the 80's. They said 8oz of dust will destroy an engine sometimes less depending how bad the leak is. I always wonder why race car engines don't have air cleaners. Some do but a lot don't and they are $50K+ engines. Seeing the old big block Can-Am engines with the trumpets sticking up just ready to suck in dirt, rubber, bugs and anything else in the course of a long race. Maybe they figure it's pointless if the engines are rebuilt for every race?
The intake air get into the engine without going through the filter. In the case of my 4020 the hose was not fully onto the intake end of the manifold, at least that is what I found. it appeared to have been that way for some time. Its in a tight spot and the only way to tell it's on all the way around is by feel, at least it's that way with the hood on the tractor.
That's considerably less than the OP's "2qts. or a bit more per hour" but still amazing that there wasn't more smoke.
It's still a lot of oil for a 65 HP engine. Maybe the 3 ring pistons had something to do with the no smoke? It was bizarre for sure. It's good I was checking the oil level often because no indication of using oil out the exhaust.
True, it would reek running a fresh rebuild dry of oil.
Read thru this and the owner will be tossing good money after bad swapping stem seals. Pull the head, inspect the cylinders as if the valve seals are leaking that bad will need guides as well and will be a Head Off required anyway. Wasting time piddling along with little parts and praying for cheap, this will not be.
Agree with DMiller most of the time on this issue, but have put in new valve seals on a 3306IDI engine so that a machine would pass emissions standards to get in the mine. Owner was not going to get paid for 3-6 months, and thought they would be done in less than 3 months. It worked and he got the job done, and tackled the big money once he has some. Situations and bank accounts differ. Simon C
If the oil is going out thru the head and you tighten that up, be prepared for it to go out the other way.
Hearing a bang after 16 1/2 hours and having no oil pressure is pretty close. Several teeth were stripped off the oil pump gear. This was before I realized it was using way too much oil. Then there was the hole in the oil pan that related to the rebuild in the first place... Just glad that it got sorted out and is running great now.
i poured some oil on the valve seals and one of them was leaking down the valve stem just sitting in the shop so seals are for sure shot. im betting guides are as well.