Thanks to fpgm04 for helping me with my block heater question. But I thought I should ask about why she won't start... My 580 SK has been sitting for about a month. During that time the temperature dropped to about 4'C (just above freezing). We've heated the oil pan with a torch, bled all the lines, checked the injector pipes for flow, the riser pump, checked the solenoid, used ether, heat gun in the air intake and turbo charger, changed the starter, seen no apparent leaks, and thrown enough amps at her to make her spin as fast as on hot summer day. Still she won't start. We get some smoke and she was kicking intermittently. But now she only seems to kick when ether is used. I'm heading into town to get a block heater, but I'm wondering if I need a bigger basket of parts. Does anyone have any idea what it might be? She ran fine before I parked her. Much appreciated.
Mine has many wires to the ignition switch. One white one has been plugged onto the wrong terminal. That terminal is live only when the starter is turning. Release the key, it turns power off to the injector pump. Make sure the injector pump has power both cranking, and running. Mine is stubborn about starting when the diesel tank is below half. Gravity seems to prime the supply pump. Bleed air from injectors. They pop, (spray) when pressure reaches a certain level. A cushion of air will prevent pressure from rising to pop them. Willie
Hi Willie B, The key isn't used to start the machine. When I bought the machine it, it had/has as very smart cable with a plunger type switch to turn the starter. So, I turn the ignition to on/run and press the switch to turn her over. It's great because I can be up at the engine when she's turning over- makes it really easy to apply ether. When you say bleed air from injectors (I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly) I loosen the 17mm nut that hold the injector supply pipe turn on the ignition and turn her over with my hand held switch until I see diesel and tighten it back up again... right? As mentioned, there's fuel coming out the injector pipes when I loosen or take off the flared pipe/nut at the injectors. Thanks, a
Yep, if you have fuel coming out of the injector lines loosened at the injector then by all means it should start.... given it is spinning fast enough. since you are indicating the air is out of the system you should see smoke from the exhaust as you crank the engine over. Also if you bleed all the lines and they seem good but then try to start it for a few tries and still no go you might check for air in the lines again... if there is then I would suggest air is getting pulled in the fuel system somewhere continuously and no amount of bleeding will help until you find the leak or obstruction to fuel. Btw: A gasoline soaked rag over the air intake is much gentler on the engine than ether, just make !very sure! the rag is secured and cannot be sucked into the cylindersl.
IF you have no smoke at cranking and you have fuel AT THE INJECTORS.. Take one out, turn it upside down and hook it back up.. STAND BACK and crank the motor and SEE if its spraying.. Just because you have fuel at the injectors doesn't mean theres enough pressure to open the injector. IF IT SPRAYS and there still isn't any smoke.. your compression may be down and you need to get a compression test done.
Thanks Guys, I'll try all of it... Gas soaked rag! Genius. I kringe when I use ether. Not exactly sure what you mean by "turn upside down and hook back up"... do you mean remove the injector attach the line, let it hang there, and crank?
Turn the line upsidedown so you can hook the injector back onto it without it being in the engine
Yes, you can let it hang.. turn it up, lay it on its side.. just so you can SEE IT opening and spraying.. IF you've never done it before or have seen it done.. ITS VERY DANGEROUS.. DO NOT GET NEAR THE SPRAY..
Since you are not getting smoke when you crank it, sounds like fuel starvation You did not indicate what injection pump you have and whether it has a S/O solenoid or a mechanic S/O. If the S/O is electrically operated, you have a latch and a hold function on the solenoid. Latch it triggered when you initiate the start function and then drops out when the starter is no longer running. The hold function is an ignition "on" function and supplies voltage to the solenoid when the engine is running. If it is a mechanical S/O make sure the knob is not in the "kill" position. We will wait to see if you have fuel at the injectors. When machines sit for a while and the fuel in the system dries out, it can cause other problems like plugged screens, either in the plunger pump or the infeed to the injection pump.
On a friends superK it turned out to be the primer pump sucking air. Made it seem cold natured on a hot day.
Fuel Injection You asked if you needed a bigger basket of parts ???? Don't buy anything until you know what the problem is. Short of the pump being defective, most everything else can be solved by cleaning or tightening loose fittings. Buying parts and replacing them is a hit and miss at best. It's like checking the horse's teeth when the problem is really at the other end. Then again, if you have deep pockets you'll end up replacing the engine instead of a $00.02 o-ring.
Thanks again to all. There's been a death in the family, so it's going to be a while before I get back to the machine (it's in a remote location). I'll try everything you've suggested and let you all know what happens. All the best, a
Gabtrac is a class act. Even with a death in the family, time was made to notify this forum of future inactivity so that we lurkers were not left hanging. My condolences on your loss, which is never easy, but which time can sometimes help. Neill
Thank you very much. Father in-law. A good and gentle man. Best of the season to all.
Happy new year to all! Ok... I'm back. I installed a block heater yesterday and left on all night. The engine was nice and warm today. I bled all the lines. I checked for fuel at the injectors - yes. Strung a few extra batteries in the line for extra power. I turned her over with only a small amount of grey smoke coming from the exhaust. She did not start #^%$&##@! I realized you guys suggested I pull an injector, which I haven't done yet. Something has been bugging me and I wanted to ask you guys first before pulling the injectors. When I left her in November she was running and starting just fine. When the temp dropped and I returned after a few weeks she wouldn't start. I'm trying to understand what might/could have/go logically gone wrong with a temp drop and a slightly extended down time...? I'm the type that needs to understand why something's not working before proceeding... ya know? So, without any obvious problems when I left her, what are the things that could have caused this, given the temp drop and time? AND, please know that I truly appreciate your help. Other info - It has a Lucas pump. I checked the solenoid and it was getting power and clicking. I took it off and it worked when I put power to it. All the best. a
Does it squirt good when you bleed the air from the filter and injection pump? And how does the velocity coming out of the exhaust look? puffing about a foot with no wind? if you have a plugged air intake (mice, etc) then the engine will crank, blow a little smoke but not start, not enough air for compression.
Hi Delmer. Thanks for your reply. I've had the filters off, to blow warm air into the intake when trying to start. I've also had the big pipe to the Turbo off as well. All seems to be clear. Not sure what good squirting looks like. But it doesn't seem to be much less than when I've bled in the past. I had never "bled" from the injectors so I'm not sure. The amount of fuel at each injector pipe is only about 2-3 drops and doesn't shoot out with much force. Yes, it puffs up about a foot - no more. But that's with the hood open, if that means anything. Just tried it again and the smoke is light grey.
Have you only tried to start below 32 F, 0 C? Fuel filter might be iced. Several times I have found a diesel won't run with an old fuel filter, a new dry one, bleed the system, it starts right up. Willie
MAKE SURE the throttle is held WIDE OPEN when trying to start it.. The bleed screw on the pump is the one by the name plate, double screw, 5/16.. loosen that screw and crank the engine until the air is out & tighten. Loosen ALL the lines AT THE injectors, or as many as you can reach, the more the better.. Crank the engine, fuel should be squirting out.. or at least dribbling pretty good.. no air.. Once you get fuel at the injectors, tighten them up and crank it..
I loosen the nut only a bit and the fuel squirts out between the tiny tube and the nut, so it squirts free when it's ready to start. It's not much though, probably only a couple drops like you say. The bleeder on the filter housing or injection pump should squirt enough that it's easy to see, not just a trickle.
Do you have the Case/Cummins 4 cyl engine in your backhoe? If it is, an open injector line should have a good squirt of fuel. If it just drips you still have an air leak. The only thing that can go wrong from prolonged non-use and cold temps, is that the fuel can gel and cause a lot of issues trying to prime and start the engine. Some times it gets gummy and depending on the additives can clog the screen in the mechanical pump and only able to pass a small amount of fuel to the injection pump.
The engine is 4-390 Cummins. Where is the screen in the mechanical pump you mention? Tomorrow I'm going to follow "thepumpguy"'s advice and get back to y'all. Thanks, a
I recently repowered a Trojan loader with the same engine here on HE HeavyEquipmentForums The engine had sat for quite some time and towards the end of the post is a step by step process for getting the engine primed and started. The screen is in the bottom of the pump plunger. remove the rubber boot and unscrew the the plunger from the body---do it slowly, there's a heavy spring in there. Mine was clogged from debris that had dried and was matted on the screen---only a trickle of fuel was getting by the screen
Thank you! I'll give everything a whirl, and will advise on progress. Much appreciated!
Ok, got the lift pump off. I think I might have a different system than yours Chansey. The pump doesn't come apart. But it seems to be pumping fine, when I put my finger on the inlet or outlet I get pretty good pressure when I pump the lever. I looked at your "trojan" link and it looks like you have a different injector pump - mine is the Lucas. I'll re-install the lift pump and move on to the directions given by "thepumpguysc". Thanks!
Does your engine have an intake heater?? grid type that sits over the air intake pipe.. its square and has a + wire going to it.. If so, it might help w/ starting.. If you don't know what it looks like, just search 4bt intake heater. some have them, some don't..
Still won't start... Re-cap 1991-ish Case 580SK (turbo diesel) w/Cummins 4-390 engine and Lucas Injector pump - no intake heater - not a BT (I don't think) - Left to sit (now 2 months) just before freezing (-5' C) weather set in. - Was running ok when it was left. - Changed starter motor - sucking too many amps. - removed and checked fuel solenoid - working - installed block heater (has now been on for two days) - changed fuel filters - in-line and canister - removed and checked lift pump - pumping well - good squirting at filter banjo fitting, and bleed screw on injector pump. - bled all lines many times and again this afternoon - as per "thepumpguysc" right up to the injector lines - fuel drops coming out at each. - opened throttle full - removed large intake pipe between air intake filter and turbo and shot in heated air and a few squirts of ether. - She kicked a couple of times but still no go. Any further advice or thoughts would be truly appreciated - it feels so close... yet not... Thanks, a
So is it kicking at all on it's own, or just with the ether? and is it smoking on it's own? If it's not smoking then pull an injector and check the spray. Does it seem to be cranking as fast as a new starter and warm batteries should? you did warm up the batteries right? One good warm one is enough. Any chance there's some drag on the hydraulic pump from a sticking control lever? Was the fuel relatively fresh 2 months ago? not using bio diesel are you? I think that is a 4bt, the t is for turbo, which I think a "super" has, and you mentioned also.
Hi Delmer, - It's kicking on it's own and w/ether. - It seems to bee cranking at the same speed it was when functioning properly, maybe a bit faster. I don't have a good way to warm the batteries...maybe I should bring them inside to charge... - I released pressure on all the hydraulic valves and even tried starting while holding the clutch cut out button down. - BUT!! when I first turn her over on two occasions lately, there's a very slight roll forward of the whole rig, like it's in gear for a split second, but it doesn't do it on subsequent tries on the same day, and it's subtle. - The fuel was fresh from the local co-op station. I had been running the machine a lot and topping up every 2-3 days. - re: BT, ok thanks. There's one other thing that just came to mind... Previous to this recent issue, whenever I foolishly ran out of fuel I'd bleed two screws on the Lucas pump - one above the other. When this issue started I was looking through other forums and found a Heavy Equipment thread (see photo, reply #9, How to prime Case 580K....) that said I didn't have to bleed/use the top screw - so I haven't. I'm wondering just this minute if maybe that entry was wrong and i should have bled the upper screw and that's why it wont start after going through all of the above provided advice...? I'm feeling stupider by the minute...
Fuel gauge on mine is erratic. If it says 1/2 I know I need to fill. I record on window hourmeter reading. At twenty hours, I need fuel. I've been known to treat it like a ticking time bomb, hoping it'll be my son who has to fill. Unaware of this, he doesn't care if it runs out. Result: I run out perhaps once a year. I open all the return banjo bolts on the top of the injectors, crank until foam stops, and nothing flows but liquid. It has been suggested to take an injector out, see if it sprays. This would confirm fuel, pump pressure, injector function. If injectors are functioning, then timing, compression, or air is the problem. Air is the least likely culprit. If it recently ran well with little smoke, and adequate power, piston rings aren't likely your problem. Valves, on the other hand, can stick open with lack of use. Check compression, or get someone who can. Open valves would allow the starter to seem extra vigorous. Timing would only change if the pump position loosened, or coupler broke. A competent mechanic will figure it out quickly. Willie
Any advice on how to pull an injector? I don't have the special tool and don't want to break anything... Thanks all, a
I'm not a mechanic but the machine doesn't run on ether. So how is all this fuel line bleeding going to help matters?
Well, from what I've learned here and in the field, when a diesel doesn't run you troubleshoot your way through all the variables starting with fuel delivery.The only way to check for that is to undo the lines, filters etc to make sure there's fuel. When you open said lines, you need to purge the air out. So to answer your question... it's required. Ether is used as a starting "aid", also called starter fluid. You are correct the machine does not run on ether.
I'm not trying to be a **** here but the machine does not require an injector or diesel fuel to run on ether, which your machine currently does not do. Bleed away I guess. I told you I'm not a mechanic, just some guy thinking outside the box.
I haven't pulled an injector yet, as was earlier suggested because I don't have the appropriate tool (don't want to wreck an injector) and wanted to make absolutely sure everything else before it in the system was working as best I could. Now that I've seen reasonably good flow right up to the injector lines, my next move is to remove an injector, check for spray and then either way do a compression test. A local mechanic friend was helping me, but he took of for someplace warmer. He thought is was due to the cold weather. But that was all before I installed the block heater. Anyway, any help with removing the injectors would be much appreciated. Thanks, a
Rubberfish, I don't have any desire to get into it with you, but perhaps you need to understand diesel engines a bit more before offering advice. Perhaps a more experienced member would correct me, but I've never seen a diesel engine that doesn't have injectors. I have no knowledge of any heavy equipment engine in existence that runs on ether. Best, a
What Fish is saying is that the engine SHOULD run on ether, quite well actually as long as your finger is accurate with the metering. Most likely you could give it more ether than you've used already. Crank the engine and when it's turning over as fast as it will, give it a shot, then a bigger shot if it doesn't start, keep giving bigger shots until it starts, or clunks and stalls the starter, that's too much. Do you have your batteries inside charging in a warm spot? I'd try that with ether before pulling an injector also. Hard to say not being there, let us know what happens. I don't know what style of injectors that has. Some you can grab the body with a vice grip and they'll usually wiggle out.
Hi Delmer, Thanks again. "The engine should run on ether" . Wow, that sounds like trouble, but what do I know. It helps her fire, but I would never try to run it on ether. I've been feeling like I'm giving it too much ether... based on other posts and advice. But will give it another try tomorrow. Yup, took the advice and brought all the batteries in for the night. In a warm spot on trickle charge. re: injector removal. I suppose what I really should have asked is what NOT to do when pulling the injectors. Sorry rubberfish I didn't understand what you meant. Thanks again., a
There are several videos on utube that show *tricks* for getting them out w/o the proper tool. I have seen on SEVERAL occasions where the tip will stick open and allow the compression back thru the injector and into the fuel system. I think the inj. removal is in order at this point.. Just google> 4B injector removal..
I'v seen where people have loosened the hold down nut with just a couple of threads holding the inj. down and using the engine compression, blow them out. Cranking the engine over w/ the loosened hold down. I have to say, THIS IS NOT the recommended procedure, but it sometimes works in a jam.. Do yourself a favor and loosen the hold down and then spray some penetrating oil around the injector.. GIVE IT TIME TO WORK..
Are you kidding me? Your original post states the machine won't start and or run. And you told us it also won't fire up on ether either. There was no mention of recently opening the fuel system ie: filter change etc that would allow air to enter the fuel system. You said it had just been sitting for a month so I'm ruling out having to bleed the system for now. If you want to make numerous trips back and forth to Lordco spending time and money on this and that that's fine, but don't be on here running your mouth when people are just trying to help you out. May I suggest a little work on your reading and comprehension. Good day and good luck with your machine.
Time for a well qualified mechanic.
Got her started this aft. Pulled the injectors and it looked like the spray was decent on all 4. Heated the batteries - block heater on all night - bled everything - blew hot air into the turbo. One small squirt of ether into the turbo as she was turning over - in under 3 seconds she fired and ran smoothly for about an hour before I shut her down for the night. I want to thank ALL OF YOU for your help, understanding and generous sharing of hard earned knowledge and experience. I'm not sure if you guys know how very valuable you are - but you are. All the very best.
Any theories? Willie
Got two Willie B. One is embarrassing, but partially shared responsibility with my mechanic friend . The other - she just needed time to warm up with lots of heat applied. Maybe my pulling the injectors and pipes helped, and slowly going over everything in sequence... maybe. The embarrassing possibility... I had checked that all the operating valves and controls were "free" 2 days ago - it had happened to me before so I knew to check. But when I reached in this aft just before turning her over I noticed that the right swing pedal for the backhoe boom was down. Not all the way, but it might have been partially engaged. I never checked the pedal, only the sticks... idiot... maybe. Hoping my experience might help others. My advice certainly won't. Again, thanks to all, much appreciated.
If you have electricity, Consider removing the air filter cartridge, and using a heat gun into the air intake. I find it often provides quick starts. Obviously, using block heater, and, or a salamander heater to offer warmth to oil, and block. Willie
I actually went one step further. I removed the intake pipe right up to the turbo charger and shot a heat gun directly into and onto the turbo until it was thoroughly heated. It was 400' from the shop/electricity so I didn't have a lot of power with 6+ extension cords linked. Thankfully the breaker never popped. Having the block heater on for so many days with a furniture blanket over the engine simulated tropical conditions. Removing the injectors took most of the day. But there' a guy on Youtube who explained perfectly how to make a simple puller. I had already put some penetrating oil on them the night before, so they came out easily once I cleaned the area. I would like to have done a compression test but at least now I'm confident with pulling the injectors. So it shouldn't be a big deal once I get the proper fitting for the test gauge.
Keep an eye on the copper gaskets on the end of the injector.. there are 2 different sizes 7mm & 9mm.. If they start to leak you'll have to know which size you need.. so next time an injector is out, measure the tip w/ a caliper or micrometer.. They're actually a 1 time use deal, seeing they're a crush seal, but if they arent leaking leave them alone.. same w/ the return line gaskets.. You can spray some liquid around the injector to see if its leaking compression while its running.. check at both low idle and full speed. The return line will leak fuel when they're bad and not sealing.. I just thought I'd give you 1 more thing to worry about.. lol
Thanks for the heads-up. Yes one more thing to worry about. But it's good to know what the cause/cure is if I find them leaking. I'll keep an eye on them. Once the weather gets a bit more agreeable I pull out my new compression tester and pull the injectors again. I'll measure them and re-install w/new copper gaskets... if it doesn't spring a leak before then. I've read somewhere (maybe here at HEF) that having the injectors bench tested can often "clean" the injectors if they're not too bunged up. Is that true? When I called the local injector guy he gave a price to re-build/clean. It was almost the same as buying new ones...
It just depends on where you get them done, but in most cases, the cost of new Cummins injectors made in Mexico is equal to that of individual parts & labor.. you might save 10- 20.00 on each injector getting them rebuilt at your shop. but then again, I've seen them cheaper NEW online.. You'll just have to check the web.. You HAVE TO find out the size of the tip before ordering.. *thickness*.. they made 2 different heads w/ 2 different size holes for the injector tip.. 7&9mm Its normal practice to have a 9mm head w/ 7mm injectors but the injectors have a nozzle/tip spacer to fill the gap around the tip.. BUT if you buy 7mm's on the web and have a 9mm head, they probably wont come w/ spacers/adaptors.. you can purchase the spacers from Cummins or aftermarket. Its JUST BEST to know ahead of time what you need and get the correct ones from the start.. Just alittle information to store away..
Thank you Sir. Priceless info - stored! 7mm or 9mm... not a lot of difference. I'll need to use a magnifying glass.
some cheap digital calipers will do or a micrometer..
I've bench tested injectors with 15,000 hrs. on them and then bought some new ones they were not much at the time $54 each Case wanted $74 at the time but came down to the $54 after they checked I wasn't bullsh--ting them. Then I tried a bench test on a new one and sure couldn't see any dif. visually installed them and the machine ran no different. I'm not saying don't change them just don't replace anything that's working. My oldest son sold a processor ( 325 Cat) a few years ago with 25,000 hrs. and nothing was ever done to the engine and it still running.