Good afternoon! I hope someone can point me in the right direction because I am at my wits end. I have a Case 580 Super L, 4x4, that will not start. It does absolutely nothing when you turn the ignition switch to "ON", and will not crank. The battery is good, I even hooked up jumper cables to a second battery and I still had no response at all. No lights/horn/instruments/anything. When I check for power on the ignition switch I have 12V, but when I turn the key to "ON" the voltage drops to 0V. Turn the key back off, 12V returns to the power wire on the ignition switch. I checked the function of the switch with a multimeter after disconnecting it and it seems to be operating ok. I also tried jumpering the 12V wire on the ignition switch to the wire that powers the accessories, and to the wire that should make it crank, all to no avail. I pulled, cleaned, and added dielectric grease to all the fuses and relay posts. I swapped around relays. Still no power to anything despite it being at the starter post, ignition switch, and the power block below the relays/fuses. I cleaned out all the nooks and crannies in the engine bay and under the floor plate to look for broken/chewed through wires...nothing seemed out of the ordinary although something certainly had been living in the space just behind the motor compartment, above the transmission. Tons of grass and twigs in there but all looked fine after cleaning. I tried to check the neutral safety switches but I cannot seem to find any information on where they are. Plus I would assume if a safety switch was bad I could still turn on the lights and such. Lastly, a bit of information on the unit. About a year ago it exhibited these same symptoms, but then the issue resolved itself after a few minutes. It has been fine ever since...until yesterday. I was loading the backhoe on a trailer to move it, started fine, ran fine, loaded fine. I turned it off. I then realized I needed to reposition the boom a bit, so I went to crank it over again and it cranked super slow as if the battery was almost drained, then nothing. No noises, smells, sparks, etc. All of a sudden nothing worked. Further turning of the key in the ignition did nothing. So now the backhoe is sitting on a trailer, can't take it off, can't get it to run. Has anyone ever had something like this happen? I'm sure it's something simple and electrical, but I cannot find it and it doesn't help that there is virtually no information on this unit online. I cannot find a wiring diagram to save my life! So any help would be greatly appreciated. I have got to get this thing moving.
I can't help with specifics of the machine but I can tell you that you've fallen into the trap of using a digital multimeter to trace voltage with. A DMM needs virtually no current in order to work so will see 12v through, for example, a badly corroded connection. Get yourself an old school test light with an incandescent bulb (not LED) or make yourself one with a headlight bulb and wire. Your troubleshooting will go much better.
Welcome to HEF, BlueDog ! Send me your email address in a PM (private message) and I will send you the electrical schematic in .pdf. You will find tho that it is quite intricate to read. You probably should buy a service manual.
Yes sir I have one! I use it in certain situations...this situation it isn't doing me much good due to the nature of the problem. This is a strange one.
Thank you! That is just what I need. And yes, I have manuals for my other equipment, this was a newer addition and I just haven't gotten around to it. I never really need manuals for mechanical fixes as I have a lot of experience in that department...although I usually end up buying the manual just to be safe. But despite being in electrical engineering for 15 years, I still haven't developed the ability to look at a huge collection of wires and know what does what ha ha! And boy does this 580 have a lot of them. I generally like to stick with simpler machines but the backhoe is very useful, so here we are!
Try checking/tightening the ground strap off of the battery to the frame. Then check ground strap inside of the frame by the battery box to the engine/trans. Tighten the bolt for the wiring on the starter.
I pulled the starter, checked it, cleaned and retightened all the connections including the ground strap that runs to the engine, but I didn’t clean and retighten the one directly from the battery bc it was very secure, but for the sake of doing it I will remove and clean the ground strap from the battery to the frame as well bc you never know! Thanks for the suggestion!
I agree with cmark, and highwayghost. From what I've read it sounds like a bad battery ground or bad connection on the harness that goes to the ignition switch. Your meter will show 12v but not current. If you are losing power while cranking that means that the wire supplying voltage to your ignition switch isn't carrying the load. Usually caused by bad ground or connection. Good luck and I hope you find the problem soon.
If you have good power at the starter, for a temporary work around, connect a 12v+ wire to the single wire on the injector pump to energize the fuel shutoff solenoid. Then jump the small single wire on the starter to the large starter post. This will engage the starter and the engine should start so BE CAREFUL!!! Take all safety precautions. Depending on what is wrong you may or may not have power to the shuttle shift. This may allow you to get it off the trailer and to a better work spot.
This is not really that strange. Relays,fuses,connections can all cause this and all can show proper voltage until a load is applied. Start close to the battery and work away from it with the test light-not the multimeter- following the the wiring diagram. This machine doesn't have any electronics that a test light can damage
jumper positive strait to starter, also do negative and see if the starter spins over
I'm losing power as soon as I turn the key to the "ON" position, never mind cranking. If I try to crank I get nothing as well. Nothing that should have power from the key being turned on has power at all. The 12V signal at the ignition switch is present until I turn the key "ON". I suspected a relay because of that, but I've checked, cleaned, swapped around the relays to no avail. I'm starting to think something is grounding out as soon as I turn the key to the "ON" position. I will be checking the rest of the grounds and such tomorrow as I ran out of light...and patience for today. Also, a kind soul sent me the electrical schematics so I am looking them over now to try to find points that could cause this. If you think of anything else, let me know, and thank you for your help!
Bad key switch? Or power relays at the fuse panel? The shuttle shift lever has a neutral safety?
I do have good power at the starter. I pulled the starter and tested it out of the engine so it wouldn't turn the motor over as it's on the trailer still and I didn't want to risk it moving by accident. I will have someone who can help me tomorrow so I plan on taking your advice here...although I am pretty sure the shuttle shift won't have power, so I don't think I will be able to move it. So long as the hydraulics are working I can lift the boom back up into the transport position, then I can winch it off the trailer if I can't drive it. As it sits now I can't even pull it off the trailer, the boom would just hit the ground
I thought about that...so I disconnected the wire harness to the ignition switch and tested operation of the switch...it behaved as it should. I then jumped the ignition switch wire harness to see what happened and it did the same thing as when I turned the key...nothing... I also cleaned and swapped out the relays thinking that if it was a relay that would solve the problem. It didn't have an effect.
You can access the shuttle shift harness and plug by removing the glove box ahead of the steering wheel. Check the neutral relay or other relays that are suspect to the problem. On my neutral relay, the connectors on the relay panel pushed in when the relay was installed and lost contact. Had to unbolt the panel to access the backside for the repair.
If you check for voltage at the starter power post, does this voltage disappear just as it does at the key switch when the key switch is turned on? If no , then you have high resistance in the power feed wire to key switch. If yes then you have a bad connection at the battery or high resistance in the cables, positive or negative. It will be something simple when you find it.
I Agree... The simplest and most obvious things can often cause the most trouble... Double check that battery. Replace with a known good... Possibly has an internal short.
You are not losing voltage. You are measuring potential in an open circuit. Once the circuit is complete the voltage drops to zero volts because the circuit can’t supply the amount of current needed to make it work. You have high resistance in the 12 volt supply to the ignition switch. You can test the circuit by connecting 12 volts direct from the battery to that terminal on the ignition switch and then trying to crank. Once you prove that this corrects your issue you can look for where you are getting the added resistance. You will find corrosion most likely somewhere in the power supply wire. you problem is simple electrical diagnosis. You need to understand the difference between potential in an open circuit vs. voltage in an operating circuit. If you don’t understand how electricity work it is very confusing. uys here will help you
I'm an electrician. For 50 years now other people have paid me to solve their electrical problems. I usually solve, or diagnose effectively. Mostly I deal in higher voltages than this, but I've had a ton, or (more accurately) hundreds of tons of experience with 12 volt failures on machines I own. I've learned two constants about 12 volt systems: If a bad connection exists, it'll come to failure exponentially sooner than with higher voltage. If someone before me found the problem, they made a makeshift repair, and it failed again. I own a 580K. I've had numerous electrical fails. Almost all have been the result of failed connections. I absolutely agree with Cmark. A voltmeter won't help you here. A voltmeter doesn't test under load. A high wattage incandescent bulb rigged with test leads is more effective. Backhoes suffer environmental stress. They live outdoors, they are used in foul weather. The Case 580 series were built in several configurations. Wiring harnesses were in four or five sections. Big multi terminal plugs are located at the bottom of where dirty, maybe corrosive water will drip down the wire. Every point where wire is cut, several opportunities for bad connections exist: Where a wire receives a crimp terminal, it oxidizes inside the crimp. The terminal oxidizes, or gets dirty. The wire meeting it is subject to the same stresses. Every point where an equipment circuit uses the iron of the machine as a conductor, it requires a good connection to "ground". Now I expand my rambling to a distant tangent. December 2016 I bought a bulldozer. The seller delivered it Christmas day. My wife was not pleased. We put it in the shop and went through it. Along with 25 other fixes, we put a new starting system in. Starter and alternator went off to the best rebuilder on Earth. All new cables, with all new terminals were installed. A new master switch, new solenoid, and new batteries. Everywhere castings mating conduct electricity, new holes were drilled and tapped, or a bolt was removed ground clean, coated in "Noalox" and clamped. All connections, terminals, were new, and treated with corrosion inhibitor, including inside the crimps of crimped connections. The Dresser TD7G was miserable to start cold. Numerous times I would remove the batteries, charge them, and warm them overnight, put them back. It would start perfectly! One day at 5 degrees F I was at my limit. Newly charged & load tested batteries failed to start it. I went through the system with a volt meter on each side of each connection, under load. Many of these connections were located where you have to unbolt lots of stuff to get to. Removing the seat, the plating it bolts to, I discovered a new bolt, new terminal, fully polished, and treated with corrosion inhibitor, but the nut was only started! I knew instantly what went wrong! The phone rang. My son receives 50 phone calls a day. When he hangs up, he hurries to make up for lost time. He forgot to tighten the bolt. We had endured years of hard starting for failure to tighten a nut. My 580K has one key. It lives in the switch except when a child will be here, then we put it away. Seth & I usually know each other's hiding places. Zack (second son) isn't always kept informed. Everybody knows to hot wire it you pull a white wire out of a seven wire plug, touch it to batt+ on the ignition switch, after it starts, put it back where it came from. Zack had been here, wanted the backhoe, hot wiring didn't work. He put the white wire back in the plug, went on with his day. He didn't mention it to anybody. I next used the machine. With a key it started, but stalled immediately. On starting fluid it would run. No fuel. I traced the problem to power at the injection pump inflow valve until it started, then it died. Examination of schematics showed the white wire from ignition switch to injector pump was plugged into the wrong terminal at the ignition switch. Electrical issues are frustrating. Knowing where current should be flowing is essential. Power flows from negative to positive. Follow with a high wattage test light, or across each connection with a volt meter. If potential should be zero across a connection, but you have voltage, fix that.
I get that a lot! She calls my 580 the 'Money Pit' every time I have to by a part!
@Willie B I did not mean to insult you with my post. My point being is your symptom is indicative of a poor connection. You need to measure voltage drop. This will help you find those added resistances(bad connections). You won’t find it measuring resistance or voltage when the circuit is not energized. I would check every connection between the battery and the ignition switch on the suspect wire.
Well said Edge! Edgephoto is 100% correct. I suggest following his advice. You definitely have high resistance somewhere in the wiring that feeds the key switch based on your voltage measurements.
If there is any swelling in either battery cable ? That is caused by some serious corrosion and will choke down current flow. Not long ago I had a cable that wasn't swollen, but I cut the insulation open at the battery connection and the copper strands were green. I then cut the full length of the insulation open and found that the strands were green from one end to the other. It was causing the symptoms you have. I had 12.45 volts with no load - 0.0 volts with a load on it. And it wasn't much of a load. It took a lot of time for me to figure that problem out. I thought I had a battery problem.
Gee, I took no insult. Another way to test for a bad connection is load the circuit. A big light works well. Then a voltmeter across a good connection will show no voltage, a bad connection shows voltage. In this case there must be good voltage throughout the high amperage starter circuit, and the relay circuit.
My son hosts an antique tractor pull each fall. I haul my own tractors, and several for other people. Next day is clean up day. I spend the day moving tractors back where they belong. As the number of tractors declined, my wife looked at me: "how many of these are yours?" They aren't all mine, but six came to live in my sheds. Wives are an amazing thing! 8 tractors 300 feet from her back door, she doesn't know they are there.
Sorry for the silence, our internet service went out for two days and I hate typing things on a tiny phone screen. Anyway, I wanted to write to let everyone know that the problem is solved! I can't say if any one person or hint helped more than another, it was mostly just following multiple recommendations, looking at the schematics, and learning as I went. Never had a problem with this equipment yet, so as much as I hate problems, they allow me to learn so it wasn't all bad. Well on to the solution. I actually had two problems. One likely complicated finding the other. Inconsistencies in measurements led me to think grounding issue...so I eventually tracked one issue down to the ground strap that comes off the battery. The grounding strap was fine but would give variable readings when I was checking status of all the grounds on the machine. Obviously that shouldn't be. I went to remove the ground strap to check it and the bolt holding it into the chassis broke off as soon as I tried to remove it. It had corroded through and had enough metal for continuity, but the slightest movement would disturb it and I would lose ground momentarily. I extracted the remaining portion of the bolt and cleaned the threads, ground strap, etc and resumed troubleshooting. I eventually found the wire that sends signal to the starter had been worn through and was shorting to ground which is what was causing the voltage drop when I turned the key. Again, this was only sometimes and it depended on what I was doing and where I was doing it...same as with the grounding strap on the battery. So I was chasing two issues and I'm not sure which one was messing with me at which time. Once I got the ground issue cleared up, finding the short to ground was pretty easy. Well, that is my update! Thank you all for your suggestions and assistance! Hopefully this solution will help someone that reads this down the road with a similar problem.
DUH!!! NOT CLEAR IF ITS STARTING UP LOL
Thanks for the update! I'm always still learning too! Glad it's better now.
Thanks for the feedback. Was that 12 volt wire that was shorting to ground, unfused? I doubt that was your issue. You would have a blown fuse, arcing marks and/or melted insulation. The poor ground connection was more likely your issue. Glad you get things sorted out.
Remember that a series circuit divides voltage. Meaning each resistor gets some of the voltage. Each connection adds SOME resistance. In even the simple high amperage circuit from battery, to frame, through several bolted connections of mating castings, to starter frame, then through windings, to cable, through solenoid, and back to battery. There are dozens of likely points of resistance. Depending on its level of resistance, (ohms), each will rob you of some voltage. you don't have a lot of voltage to spare. If it is a starting issue the magnetic solenoid is another essential segment of the system. This is typically a little less sensitive to bad connections. I hear controversy about converting old machine voltage from 6 to 12. This does usually help overcome the hard starting, sluggish starter issues. A starter designed for six volts will be hard pressed to overcome loss of voltage in the circuit. Another approach is to fix the bad connections.
hello i'm new but I have a 1991 580k that was running great but the other day I started it and it died right away it will only run if you hold the key in the start position if you let it go it dies.....it is cutting power to the fuel solonid…...my ? is this a bad key switch or relay......thx dan
I can't remember, is that a 2-wire fuel solenoid, or 3? I actually own a 1991 580sk.
You probably have a bad fuel shut off solenoid. You should have one wire with constant voltage with key on, and another with voltage only key in start position. The hold coil in the solenoid usually goes bad. I don't remember if the solenoid is mounted on the inside of the injection pump on these models or not.
I have a 580K me & 2 adult sons use it. My younger son used it one day, he didn't have a key. I never knew. The process included unplugging a white wire from the back of the switch, attach it to a live terminal. Then another white wire touched to the live terminal for the starter. When it would start, but wouldn't run, we went through the system & discovered we were losing power to the valve ahead of the injector pump. Eventually tracked it to the key switch, found a wire on the wrong terminal. Quite a mystery! Eventually it came to light Zack had hotwired it, evidently replacing the wire on the wrong terminal.
All this talk about using test lights or meters and bad connections are rediculous. The key is just knowing ohms law. The voltage drop though a connection is proportional to the current. V=IxR. So for example if you have a 3 ohm resistance in a connection, but only micro or milliamps drawn by a meter, the voltage drop will be miniscule and you will read 12V. Make that 10Amps draw and your drop will be 10x3 or 30V in this example. So you'll read zero. Go ahead and use a multimeter, but know that you will get a different reading when you engage a heavy load.
Ooohhh boy!!!
Formulas are good, but most people don't remember them and are able to just remember to put one lead on this terminal, one on this one and do a test. And yes voltage drop will be zero if there is not sufficient flow of current. Of course the flow of current has to be proportional to the size of cable being tested. Big difference between 18 gauge and 2/0 cable. Most people can get a Digital Volt Meter but not many have DC clamp meters so we try to explain in terms they can understand. Your point is good but most will never remember unless they look it up. I remind myself that 40 years ago I just knew a few simple things and hoped to find something simple. Simon C
Very interesting thread to bump into. I have been designing [and mostly repairing] electronics' for decades. Only yesterday I had a circuit showing a near short, this is a replacement module in a favourite trickle charger for our machines, which had faulted. The circuit on test failed when the supply voltage dropped causing a current spike which overloaded a microprocessor / display chipset to short circuit > parts bin. Solution is another board [I bought 5 at minimal cost] and supply better D.C. with a filter electrolytic capacitor added, now a constant current supply and voltage doesn't fall away as steeply with load. So the ohms, volts and amperes' are at play here and for the defect starter circuit I would use a test lamp, DMM [digital multimeter] or moving coil traditional analogue multimeter: 1. Put the meter / globe over the battery lead terminals 2. Watch the meter / globe and engage the switch 3. If, it doesn't alter, move to the next junction 4. Place the negative [black usually] meter lead on a clean chassis bolt and test again 5. If clear, next clip the + [usually red lead] on the switch / key terminal and black on a clean metal bolt / earth chassis terminal, if no or low voltage we are beyond the fault [resistive circuit] and have to trace back Its all basic logic to eliminate the weak point. What I can say is that miniatuarisation, since my initial Electronics and Communications' course, has reduced 'repairability' to module / assembly level [throw away] and a side effect is harmonic emission or broadband radio noise pollution from these technologies.