Hey guys I just purchased a case 580c with a blown motor. I also have a 580b with a bad transmission but the motor runs great. I’m going to pull the motor out and install it in the c but was wondering what your guys thoughts are on rebuilding it while it’s out of the tractor? Not sure on the oil pressure. I was thinking I might go ahead and do it.
Welcome to HEF, Bryan ! Why not start it up and check the oil pressure while it is still in the B ?
Thanks! Yeah I will go ahead and check it before I pull it. I know it doesn’t smoke. Are you thinking if it’s not broke don’t fix it? Go ahead and swap it if the pressure is good?
Yeah probably a pretty dumb question. I will check the pressures on the oil and a compression test on it. See what it says before I spend the money. Is there a certain fitting I need to check the compression or will a universal diesel compression tester work? You all know what the compression should be on those motors?
There are no dumb questions on HEF. Here is a link to the 580B service manual. It has the 188 in it. All the engine info will be in it. The 580C has a 207 in it. Minnparr has the 580C service manual also. I suppose it depends on the kit you buy whether or not it will have the correct adapter. That adapter alone will $50.00 or more.
Alright tinkerer need some of your Knowledge. I started checking the 188 out today. And realized that it doesn’t have an actual pressure gauge on it. Gonna have to buy a mechanical gauge for it. Do you know what size threads is in the block where the oil pressure switch goes. Also checked my compression kit I have and of course I don’t have the fitting that will fit gonna have to get the adapter I guess.
If it’s the pencil style adapter your looking for.. it’s in the harbor freight compression kit..(master)
Thanks Mine is a harbor freight kit. Not the master kit though.
That’s good to know. The one I got doesn’t seem to be of use for a whole lot of engines
U got the “glow plug” one.??
I will snap a picture of it I’ve only been able to use it on one motor so far.
View attachment 258921 View attachment 258920
Yes , that’s the glow plug kit..no gp’s on the 580c.. The other one has the pencil inj. adapter..
Aww gotcha okay. I will get that then. Got the loader off the 580B today. Never realized how tiny those motors are for what they are moving. It’s about ready to split apart. Going to pick up the 580c tomorrow
Hey guys is there anything I need to be aware moving this 580c that’s not running?
Make sure the differential lock is off. If it works.
It moved pretty well I didn’t have any hassle loading it surprisingly finally got it home. It’s in great shape like it hasn’t been used much at all. Besides the rod threw the block. All the pins and bushings are tight. No oil spots on it.
How severe is the hole in the block ?
It’s missing about a 2” piece on the side where the humps are on the block. It looks like a connecting rod cap came loose.
Looks nasty. But at first look that block appears to be repairable.
I was thinking that myself. I don’t have the piece that broke off. What would you use to fill the hole?
Wish I had the piece that broke. I’ve never repaired anything like that before but I’d give it a shot
I’ve brazed cast before just not on an engine block.
I don't think it can be simply brazed. Toooo much expansion will occur in that small area and cause cracking. I think commercial repair shops have a specific procedure that they use to heat them in an oven. As scarce as those blocks are I would certainly try to repair it.
You think fix it and keep it or fix it and sale it?
My Dad had a old Allis Chalmers WD that had a hole in the block. Someone had drilled and tapped holes all around the large hole, and used a piece of sheetmetal and rubber and bolted it to the side of the block to seal it. It was like that when he bought it, ran that thing for years like that, and then sold it a few years ago and still see it once in awhile pulling hay wagons. I don't think it's a strength issue, just a issue of keeping the oil inside the engine.
I know a metal shop that could fix it. Machine shops around here won’t touch it. Least I called the ones I use. Probably go ahead and fix it and put it back in the tractor
That is good if they have extensive experience doing it It is not a repair for an amateur to do. I saw a Caterpillar D-9 engine with a big hole in it from a con rod wanting out of it similar to yours but bigger. It was repaired with a patch and had hundreds of hours put on it afterwards.
Yeah think that’s the route I’m going to go. I can tell this doesn’t have a ton of hours if the hour meter works it had 2900. That 580b probably has 20k hours as worn out as it is. Had to drill holes and put bolts in some of the bucket pins to keep them from coming out cause the bushings are shot.
Got the loader off the C today. Started messing around with the forward and reverse. It’s not engaging in either. I know it’s something minor cause I can move the driveshaft from the transmission to the rear differential. Any ideas? I tried to hook power to some of the connections by the transmission and still no luck
Does it have to be running and the hydraulic pump pumping for it to go into forward or reverse?
It has to be running for the transmission to do anything. The hydraulic pump has no interaction with the transmission. Torque convertor with power shuttle shift, or clutch ?
Yes, if you have the forward/reverse lever on the left side of the steering wheel, it has something very much like a car automatic transmission with an internal oil pump driven by the torque convertor. If the internal pump is not turning, it won't go.
Okay thanks. Yeah it’s a torque converter power shuttle
Got the motor pulled.
I don’t think I’m gonna go with this motor it’s a pretty bad gash I don’t wanna spend the money to rebuild it. And down the road it leaks. When I have a good motor and block. It will be good for parts.
Any of you guys ever use the heavy duty pros rebuild kits? If so are they pretty good? They are cheaper than the others but not sure on the quality
Never heard of heavy duty pros rebuild kit. Could you explain what you mean a little more.
Here it is. I’ve never used them.
They only have the late model 188 kits. Think I’m going to have to go to the earlier engine style. I haven’t checked the bore yet. Broken tractor has a kit as well they use reliance parts.
Any tips on getting this pulley off the crank? I’ve heated it up with a torch. Took a cheater bar too it. And this won’t budge….
It will never come off until you remove the nut that holds it on the crankshaft. So, Heavy Duty Pros is a vendor of engine parts. The only way to find out if they sell well known brands of parts is to call them. I would recommend you call Dale Wiess. http://www.e-backhoeparts.com/ His prices are very competitive with other vendors. I have purchased engine kits from him and they are high quality well know brands of parts. The piston ring end gaps were perfect when I checked them before mounting them on the pistons.
Okay sounds good I will go that route when the time comes. Is that nut right hand thread? Or left hand
Well I gave up trying to get that but off the crank. I used an 8ft cheater ended up breaking it. So I loaded it up took it to a welding shop gonna have him pull it off for me. I don’t know what is holding it on so tight
Nut off the crank
Hey guys well the welding shop got the nut off the crank. Reason I was having a hard time was the threads on the crank where gulled up. I’m needing to get a thread die for it. You all know what size thread tap I would need?
It would be better to let the welding shop repair it if they would be willing to do it. Or a machine shop. It may be expensive, but a lot cheaper than a totally messed up crankshaft.
Okay. Yeah il take the crank in to a machine shop. See if they can clean these threads up.
I would be willing to bet that they tried to loosen that nut while they had everything red hot, that's why metal gaulds,it would have been better to let everything cool just a bit before turning it, the same applies to the cylinder glands that need heated to break loose, I have seen a few of those gaiuled also, same situation, turning it while everything is close to melting temp.
Well I’m finally about to pull the trigger on a rebuild kit for the 188. I did get the nut off but I have to order a new nut for it and pulley.
Well started putting back together. And found out from the machine shop that the crankshaft has been previously ground. So someone has worked on it.
With no bolts and flat washers holding those liners down there is a good chance they will go up if you turn the crankshaft.
So far I haven’t had that problem. Im done turning it now. Have it in time. About ready to put the cylinder head on. Going to lap the valves first. Was going to take the head in but since it’s been worked on I changed my mind. You all know what I will need to transfer over to the 188 for it to work in the C? The dipstick tube on the 207 is short and the one on the 188 is long. I ended up bending the tube on the 188. But I don’t think I can use it anyway.
Another question. I’m wanting to put a block heater in this for old weather. Read online that I can take out that plug on the left rear side of the block and install one there. That hole tho doesn’t look very big for a heater to go into. It’s the one with the 5/16 square hole.
Block heaters typically go in a one of the expansion (freeze) plug holes.
Aww gotcha okay thanks
Case supplies a heater for the plug behind the filters on the LH side in the plug you described
Okay thanks yeah think I’d rather go that way. Just wasn’t sure if it would fit. It would have to be pretty narrow to fit that hole
I've got one of the screw in type in my C with a 207 engine it works awesome, just plug it in for an hour or so a little longer in single digit temps and machine starts right up, no ether needed.The plug can be stuck in there pretty good, had to use heat on mine and the one I did for a guy down the road. If you don't have a 5/16 square socket you can grind down an old extension to get the job done.
Okay good deal. I ordered one this morning. I almost did that with an extension but I figured I might break it so I ordered a square socket. I figured it’s going to be a pain to get out. Now I wish I wouldn’t have painted it…
Well the motor is put together. Gonna have to order a few more parts but it’s about ready to put back in the tractor. But do I need to have the 188 hooked up to the transmission before I can hook up the injection pump? I see the marks on the flywheel but there isn’t anything to go off of when the transmission isn’t on. Or can I just line up the dots on the cam gear line up the marks on the pump and install it?
Yes you can. Put the flywheel on.
I got the flywheel on. But the transmission has the peep hole. To look through. Guess i can wait just to me seems like more work than necessary.
It all has to be done sooner or later. Why not leave the ip off until you have the engine in the tractor ?
Yeah that’s what I think I’m gonna have to do. It’s no biggie just figure it would be easier to install beforehand but it’s no problem. I’m about ready to install it now.
Guys I have an issue this 188 has a female type of speedo that goes into the block. The 207 has a male threaded type. I need to remove the old speedo and get a male threaded type. Any ideas on how to remove it from the block?
You will have to make a puller of some sort. I'm thinking the threads are NPT but can't remember for sure. Or weld a nut to it and use a slide hammer.
Okay thanks I got it out.
Guys I’m about ready to fire the motor up and see how it’s going to run. Like to fire it up before I completely put it together. My question is if the power shift transmission has oil in it. But all the hydraulic lines are disconnected and the driveshaft is disconnected. Will it hurt it to start it and run it for about 5 mins
If the hydraulic pump is coupled to the motor it will be destroyed.
It’s not
Surely I can start this motor without hurting the transmission.
As long as you DON'T connect the hyd. pump and there's oil in the shuttle it should be alright.
Okay thanks
You guys happen to know the thread size on the 207 tach drive? It’s male threads. Think I’m going to have to use it.
If you are going to use it, you need a 207 tachometer cable for a correct fit. I don't know the thread pitch. NF will be very close. Any machine shop could measure it. Why do you need to the the tread pitch ?
Well I removed the old 188 tach because it was female thread and it wouldn’t work in the The 580c. I was going to find and I am still looking for a tach drive from a 207 so I can install it in the 188. If I can’t find one I am going to have to make a puller to remove the drive from the 207 that I have to use it in the 188 so it will connect to the 580c. But I finally found the thread size in the manual this morning. A new tach drive is over thousand dollars. They are proud of them.
What is the thread size ? What manual did you find the size. Others reading this thread in the future would benefit from that info. There is a used one here---> http://hagantractorparts.com/engineparts.htm
The size for mine is 7/8”-18 It’s the bushing that screws onto the top of the tach. The 188d is the bolt looking one that is 3/4” there are 2 different types
Might get lucky. Think Shaifer salvage might have one a whole lot cheaper.
Take your time and do some searching. Especially in ag equipment salvage yards. I only post Hagan's as an example.
Shaifer salvage had one he is going to send me! Was cheap too. I’m glad I didn’t want to build a puller.
Guys my instrument cluster glass is faded to the point you can’t read any of the gauges. Is there anything I can do? Could I remove the plastic glass and replace it with new?
Another question. I’m looking at my wiring diagrams. Gonna have to rewire a lot of it. Wires are bad shape with years of splicing and all sorts going on. There is a wire that goes to a bucket spool detent? What is that?
It is for the return to dig function.
Does it need to be energized? Or will it work without it?
I tried headlight restorer on mine and it actually cleared it up a little.
Okay thanks. I’m gonna take the cluster out and see if I can clear it up. Or if I can remove the glass somehow.
I too have heard of the headlight restorer “trick”..
Apparently brake fluid & a soft cloth works well Personally I would try the fine W&D paper & Brasso / Metal polish.... Look Here
Dang I think I’m going to try the brasso chrome polish. That looks like new!
Well guys I picked up a 207 tach drive but apparently the 188 block has a smaller diameter hole because this tach will not fit the hole on the 188. Any suggestions? wondering if I can turn down the 207 tach to fit? Or possibly drill the hole out idk.
Don't drill the block. Get the correct drive. Getting the wrong one to fit in the hole doesn't mean it will mate up with the camshaft gear correctly, if at all.
Think I’m gonna see a dealer see if they make a tach drive that will work
Good Luck !
Nice price and a bargain at that. Would Dale at e-backhoeparts.com have that?
It needs to be male threads. That Will fit the 188 but adapt to the 580c tach drive
What about getting a 188 tach drive and changing the tachometer to one that matches it ?
Well I thought about that but it looks like the tach on the gauge cluster is built in. If. I cant find one I’m gonna just plug the hole.
Here is a picture of it
That is probably your best option. You could put a digital tachometer on it. They are very inexpensive.
Next head scratcher at least for me. I’m trying to start the motor before I put it all back together. I was going to use the 188 injection pump but it crapped out on me. It runs at 1900 rpm I’m gonna order parts and rebuild it but. I decided to go with the 207 injection pump that is like new runs at 2100 rpm . I set it at 8 degrees btdc. Is that correct with this pump? It’s acting like it’s wanting to fire but I figured it should of kicked off by now.
Never mind it started
Lol.. u can get all the rpm’s u wanted with the 188 pump.. Simply back out on the hi speed stop screw.. BUT DONT DO IT W/O A KNOWN GOOD TACHOMETER..
The problem w swapping pumps is, they are built w a certain transmission in mind.. Shuttle shift.. etc..
I’m not. I’m gonna seal that hole. I don’t run my equipment with a tach anyways least most of the time I don’t use one. Usually by ear and never full rpm’s.
Aww I gotcha. Well I’m that case I have the correct pump on there.
Well why I have you guys on here. Is the tachs for the 188 and the 207 the same diameter? The guy from Shaifer salvage said he might of given me a 336 tach?
A 207 tach-drive should be 1.063 OD with a 9 tooth gear. The person at Schaefer Salvage that sent you that 336 drive should be able to help you. Hagan Tractor Parts has this one.
Yeah he is looking
Remember the 207 injection pump times at TDC 0 degrees
Just mic the tach that I have it looks identical to the picture but it is way bigger that that diameter. The hole in the block is also 1.06 inches
Well was working on the brake system today. Both master and slave cylinders are froze up. Took them both apart. Was curious how easy they are to rebuild? Versus buying new. Gonna need to replace the left hand side seal. It wasn’t leaking but the seal is all messed up. The right hand side was leaking. Are there 2 seals I should replace in there one big one and one small one that goes on the inside shaft?
Is there a seal that goes in between these two shafts? Side of the differential shaft.
On the brake slaves, I just honed them and replaced the 0-rings. But if I had it to do over, I think I would have just replaced them. They are only $25.00 each on ebay, though the price keeps going up. You can get both masters and both slaves in a kit for $165.00
Okay I’m leaning that way. They are in pretty bad shape
You guys happen to know if there is a small seal where the differential lock shaft goes into the brake housing? The previous pictures show what I’m talking about? Also all the wiring diagrams I have found show an 8 pin engine harness? Mine is a 6 pin and I’m trying to trace down wires is there anymore wiring diagrams I can check on? I’ve been using the one on minnpar.
According to the Case online parts catalog it's A49795
Okay thanks. I found it once wrote that number down haven’t found it again. So wasn’t certain if I was looking at it correctly.
Bryan, yes there is a seal in that location - there is a plethora of 580 brake infomation on this site. TIP - I use google to search the site - an example of what to type in google search box -> case 580 diff lock seal site: HeavyEquipmentForums The results of such a search. Most results of the search will direct you HEF This thread is about an early 580E with similar questions - which will link you to other threads
Okay sounds good
Got the brakes finished. Tach installed. Gauges and ignition rewired. Lots of rewiring. Have a few more odds and ends before I can try it out but almost there.