Can anyone please answer this question. I have a Case 580C backhoe, and am repairing the switches on the instrument panel. What are the little block 'circuit breakers' mounted to the plate under the dash console and how do they work? Are they fuses or circuit breakers? If fuses, replacement parts aren't available. If they are really 'circuit breakers' how do they reset? Any insight would be helpful. I can't find any information anywhere. Thanks very much in advanced. Murray
I believe they work like this one Fastronix, Auto Reset Circuit Breaker, 20 Amp, Each - Competition Products Fastronix, Auto Reset Circuit Breaker, 20 Amp, Each 20 Amp Circuit Breaker, Each Fastronix Auto Reset Circuit Breaker Use to protect many electrical accessories. Self resetting design. Insulated housing, inline mounting tabs and 10-32 stud terminals. www.competitionproducts.com
Thank you very much both for the answer and the link to a product reference!
Local autoparts stores carry those also. They work on heat. When they cool off they self reset unless the problem is still there.
The circuit breakers are automatic reset type.
Could these cause an alternator to go bad ? Have a 1993 580SK that had an alternator only putting out 11.5 . Replaced with a new one ($185.00) and it lasted about 3 mins with the same out put 12.90 then dropped to 11.5 also!!
Those breakers are there to prevent damage to the electrical system. If the alt. is not charging even after replacement you may have other issues.
Clean all the battery cable connections. Especially the ground wire to the frame. If you are working on the instrument panel, check all the connections and wires on the ammeter. I would look at the ignition switch connections also. You may not have an alternator problem. Take the new one back to where you bought it and have them check it. Are you checking the alternator output with a VOM ? Or, going by what the ammeter in the dash shows.
with a vom. and now have instrument panels out , found a bad bulb(replaced) but no obvious wire issues,haven't checked fuses yet. Alternator reads 12.75 with key off as well as batteries after using charger. When I turn key part way all gauges take a jump, including tach, but tach dosen't move with engine running . A few lights work but not turn signals or hazards. read tha tach operates off of alternator ? What wire does that/? Thanks for the thumbs up COY ( that is my brothers name also, kinda rare spelling) Haven't checked the groundings yet and bat cables were a touch loose at first attempts!
There's a cab relay by the fuse panel also, you can see it when you remove the fuse panel door but you can't really get to it. You may want to check all the harness connectors under the machine for corrosion in the pin and sockets. Not many of us Coy's around with the same spelling. I've only known one or two myself.
OK, thanks , it was on my list to remove floor panel , as I experienced on a 1989 case 580k the harness under the floor had lost its wire tie and fell onto driveshaft and chewd through over 3/4 of the wiring!! Lotta splicing ? Which I am an amateur at! Still not sure how tach operates, needle jumps with key on but don't move with engine running.
The fuse blocks in those machines were prone to corrosion because they are so close to the floor. Best way to access it is to remove the dash. Unbolt the fuse panel and look in behind at the terminals. Like COY said there is a cab relay next to the fuse panel, well known for corrosion or wires coming loose this will cause all kinds of lights going out intermittently. Fuse blocks and terminals can be purchased locally from a good electrical supplier. Tach wire is on the W terminal on the alternator it was quite common for these wires to break or short out. Just run a new wire from the tach to the dash. should be a yellow wire with a red tracer. Clean all those copper contacts on the dash and the contacts on the dash plug. Make sure they are straight and not bent over. The signals not working is usually the flasher unit part# D147166 . Remove the bulb holders clean the contacts on the holder and on the dash.
Very helpful,I am in the process of checking all you mentioned, and replacing flashers and run a ( W ) wire to dash. might e a day or two, Thanks GGGraham. got my fingers crossed!
Tach runs by a cable, if it's jumping cable is probably broken inside sheath and making just enough contact to make it move a little. Did you ever try revving the engine a little after starting to see if that energizes the alternator?
No , just installed new Alt and started engine ,It read 12.90 istead of 13 or 14 but within a few seconds dropped to 11.5 with VOM. Haven't found a cable for tach? Haven't been able to do more yet, other family obligations iin the way. I thought ALTs read the same with high or low revs, but will try it. thanks for hanging in there for me
Every time I start my C let it warm for a minute or so for oil pressure then give 'er a little high rev and volts come right up. Didn't ever have to do that until swapping out alt. to diagnose another fellers charging issues (long story) but it works for me. Tach cable is the thick "line" that plugs into the back of your dash cluster and runs to the right side of the engine in between the starter and power steering pump provided your machine is equipped with 207D engine.
My 480C has a tach cable also. It's just like a speedometer cable on a older car or truck, all mechanical. But maybe he has a later unit and they went to a electric tach?
Thats true , guess there is a wire ( W ) spade clip on back of alt. will make up a bypass wire , but not sure if it goes through a resistor or ? in connection (1993 case 580SK 6380 hrs) but have no clue how long tach hasn't been working as I just purchased the Hoe. thanks for the inputs guys!!
From the service manual
This thread started out about Murry B's 580C and the circuit breakers in it, but was side-tracked when Ed started asking about his 580SK. Ed has a 580SK and it has an electric tachometer. The picture you posted of a 580C starting circuit does have some value because it shows how the idiot light is wired into the OEM charging circuit.
Shoulda caught that, was going by the title.
The warning bulb supplies 12v to the executor at the alternator. If the bulb is burnt out it can't provide the 12v and the alternator won't charge. With the key on and engine off the bulb should light up. Once running it should go out. Make sure you don't have a voltage drop going to your alternator. You should measure all you alternator wiring looking for voltage drops. Even when you said your alternator was working that voltage is way too low. You have something wrong and need to diagnose it.
That diagram shows the old GM style alternator, which my 480c has also. Very simple setup. As the diagram shows, terminal 1 is the feedback for the internal regulator. It monitors the system voltage so the regulator knows how hard to run the alternator. It's just jumped to the output terminal. Like the other guys said, terminal 2 brings the alternator online from the keyswitch. If that wasn't there, the alternator would run the battery down while it sat there not running. When GM had these in the late 70's and early 80's vehicles, they would put a resistor across the indicator bulb, in case the bulb burnt out the alternator would still get a signal to start charging. Don't know if Case did this or not.
Thanks Tinkerer, you nailed it! removed dash unit , replaced three bulbs and hoorray turn signals , and especially tach and alternator ( $185.00 wasted purchase) working as it should ,14.60 vom. I say wasted because the old alt was probably just that same issue , never would have figure a bulb acts like a fuse , completing the circut, but while runing engine the alt light is stayin lit?? now what?
Also thanks to Edgephoto, for the tips . Burned out bulbs was the culprit, but alt light stays on with engine running?? and fuel guage still not working , where does it connect 1993 case 580SK
The light bulb should not be lit up when the alt is charging. If the bulb doesn't doesn't stop being illuminated and the alt is charging I would guess there is problem with the wiring to it. The bulb doesn't act as fuse in this situation.
SORRY GUYS, BACK TO SQUARE ONE, DIDN'T KEEP WORKING! ran the hoe for a few minutes and alt light burned out , lost tach and alt only putting out 12.50 again!! No am not computer or cell phone savvy for sending pictures, The back of the dash is a printed circutry schematic ( no wires to the bulbs) they get contacts on the printed circutry that has little copper circles, just plug in and turn 1/4 turn to lock in place. Is alt bulb a specialty one, I just had a regular 12 volt plug in bulb on hand.
is the ignition switch faulty? haven't found a wiring issue
If you need to use the hoe for some important job coming up, just take a small alligator clip jumper and jump #2 teminal to the large bat terminal. It should charge. Just make sure you pull this jumper off when you turn the machine off, or it will run the battery down overnight. Just use the jumper again if you need to use the machine again till you get it figured out. This may also get in your head how it works. 12v on #2 terminal activates the alternator to charge.
Umm, Ed said it is charging, but the red bulb continues to stay lit. It could be dirty or loose battery cables. Especially the ground to the tractor frame. A hard glaze on the serpentine belt is another possibility.
Good clues and advice. Already cleaned all battery connections( took battery ground off and cleaned) , replaced all bulbs on circuit board , pulled out resistors and cleaned appear to be working ( clicking noises) by-passed tach wire ( W ), lights on dash oil,hydraulic, brakes , water come on with key just before start, but no alternator light. Alternator putting out 12.55 ( VOM) but no gauges work including tach, after starting engine. The alt light stayed on for about 10 minutes, the first time I replaced bulbs 1 Might just try that #2 jumper idea. Doubt that belt is an issue since it did put out 14.60 on the first go around. Going to replace resistors and ignition switch,( just as a desperate trial) , and run a new tach wire next, but have no hope that will do anything. Circuit board doesn't seem to have any burnt issues but not positive that bulbs are getting good contacts, even though they look ok.
When the alternator was working what was the voltage you measured at the battery terminals? A full fielded alternator can put out around 18v which will burn out bulbs. The bulb does not act as a fuse. It actually provides voltage to the regulator via the filament. If the regulator goes bad it puts a ground on that wire which causes the bulb to light up. As someone mentioned some vehicles actually had a resistor in parallel in case the bulb burnt out. Let's help you diagnose this problem and not just take wild guesses. Do you have a a wiring diagram or does someone here have one they can post. Then I can help you with what measurements and tests to make.
The voltage was the same at battery as it was at alt. Is the regulator on the alt ? Found two resistors down deep in dash, or are they regulators. removed them, and a friend thought they were ok, but weren't sure how to test them. Ran a continuity test on tach wire appeared to be ok. all bulbs have been chacked replaced ( 12 of them). turn key on just before start and Hydraulic, AIR , Oil ,trans light up but not alt! brake light came on couple times also. after starting, alt reads 12.55 and battery the same. all wiring and harnesses appear normal no burnt or broken, spade clip wire was a little loose on new alt and tightened it up. Really stumped, . Thanks for hanging in there for me. None of the gauges move after starting, They all worked when first rplaced three bulbs ( except fuel gauge), and like I said it ran for about 10 minutes with all the lights and gauges working , but alt light stayed on during that time, which I knew was not right. after shutting engine off , have never had alt light again even with new bulbs.??? and the alt at that time was reading 14.60
Ed; This image is from the service manual. It isn't a very good one. Do your wire connections match these ?? There is a male/ female plug in the wiring harness. It would be prudent to unplug it and look for corroded and/or burnt wire connections in it.
Here is the schematic diagram. Unfortunately it is printed on 6 different pages in the service manual. If the color codes for the wires are need, I can post them also.
Yes, that is same as my 1993 580sk. # 3 has a W for the tach, and cleaned and tightend spade clip. Red/yellow for tach, blue/yellow for #1wire (alt) ?? Thanks for pictures wire colors very helpful. Still not sure where regulator is located
The regulator is inside the alternator. They are quite easy to replace and not very expensive.
I don't think it is charging? Post 27? Tell him how to jump the bat voltage to the exciter wire on the alternator just to see if it will charge.
The alternator warning light is yellow/dark blue to the alternator. Be sure it is connected to right terminal on the alternator. I am curious if it is.
What is an exiter? Alt is charging but only at 12.55 used the hoe today, started at least 10 times and ran for maybe 5-10 minutes , battery was still reading 12.55 when I stoppped, no lights on dash or tach movement. Franklin # try a temp jumper from #2 to battery terminal on alt?/ Won't mess with diodes, or regulator? Not sure if charging is the issue but no gauges working, but warnig filter lights come on just before start, with the exception of the alt light. Maybe burnt diodes in new alt??
Yes it is, but the light was lit and other guages were working also ,Tach etc, but after 10 minutes alt light was on the whole time ,and now no alt light at all??
Is thar foe a 580 SK 1993, where is circuit breaker?
thanks for reply, did all that and still alt is VOM 12.55 but no alt light on dash, how to check those relays for good or ugly??
No, It is not. It is for a 580C. Your starter circuitry is nothing like it. Remove the indicator bulb and check it. It could be burned out. Your alternator should be putting out about 14.5 volts when all is well. Sometimes a known good relay can be swapped for one that is suspected of not working. Or buy a new one. The exciter is a device inside the alternator that causes it to charge when needed. That is what the yellow/dark blue wire is terminated at.
Good reply, Thanks, replaced three bulbs and everything worked like it should except alt light stayed on while running engine for 10 min and shut down. Now nothing is working guage wise ! Warning lights come on just before start on switch, but not alt light. Alt is at 12.55 volts and so is battery ran the hoe for ten minutes or so today started at least 10 times and battery still shows 12.55!1 Are diodes blown or regulator messing with me? No burnt wires, all wiring contacts cleaned and new bulbs but no alt lighton dash,or tach!!
Yes it is on the right terminal
I would be taking the alternator somewhere that can test it.
Yes that is next , even though it is brand new. Evidently when ALT light stayed on with engine running caused an issue , but how and why, so it doesn't happen again.
It is not unusual for new and rebuilt alternators and starters to have have problems. I suggested testing both of yours alternators to rule out the possibility they are defective. Did anything change with the tractor just prior to the first alternator quite charging ?
Battery cables were not very tight. Replaced three bulbs in dash and all lights and gauges were normal except no fiel gauge, and alt light stayed on with engine running, Now can't get any alt light or tach, but warning lights come on with key almost to start position( except for alt)
Question 1. Do you have a GM style alternator with a #1 and #2 terminals? If you do, no you can't hurt it by jumping the #1 or #2 terminal to the battery. But if you do have this type alternator, there is some miss-information somewhere. I looked at the diagram posted earlier below, and it said #2 terminal was the exciter terminal. I was suspicious of that, but since it was a factory Case diagram, I chalked it up to my old memory giving out. Here's that diagram. But I was curious, and looked on the web, this is what I remember how the terminals were arranged; #1 is the exciter, #2 is the regulator feedback. For now, it really doesn't matter if you want to test the alternator. If you want to test it yourself, get some spade crimp connectors, crimp some short wires to them, and plug one into the #1 terminal, plug the other in #2 terminal. Twist these wires together and hook them to the battery +. You can do this at the large alternator wire or anywhere you can get to the battery +. Then start the engine, you should have 13.5-14.5 volts at the battery. If you do you know the alternator is good and you still have wiring problems on the tractor. Like I said before, you can leave this test setup on there if you need to run the tractor, but do not leave it on there overnight, it will run down the battery.
No it doesn't look like that, picture . has a large battery trminal on top in the middle, small nut in back position ( alternator??) or exciter/ and a spade clip in middle for Tach ( has a W for Id#) Alt is brand new , but going to have it tested. It did put out 14.60 when I first started engine, but now it is 12.55 with tach and alt not working on dash after replacing all13 bulbs
12.5 volts is a fully charged battery. I doubt your alternator is working. Measure voltage drops while the machine is running or the results are useless. Diagnosis is preferable to parts shotgunning. First put your meter on DC volts. One lead to the big terminal on the back of the alternator and the other to the positive battery terminal. Should read zero. If more than 0.5 volts you have a bad connection or wire is corroded internal. Next put one lead to the case and the other on the negative battery terminal. Again it should read 0.5 volts or less. If above that you have a bad ground somewhere. Then you can check for voltage at the regulator. According to the 6 page wiring diagram posted the Yellow/Dark Blue at the alternator is the field wire that comes from the alternator lamp. With the connector disconnected, key on and the engine off there should be 12 volts at the wire. With the connector connected and the engine running you should measure alternator output voltage so ideally around 14 volts. The other wire at the alternator is the tach wire, according to the posted diagram. If you set your meter to AC volts you should read something but I would not worry about this for now. Has this alternator been "rebuilt"? If so, there is a good chance the new parts have failed. Those few simple measurements will tell us. When I had a Jaguar alternator rebuilt by a reputable shop that I have known for 30 years it failed every few months. Rebuilder said he was getting out of fixing certain alternators because the original parts were NLA and only Chinese junk was available.
First really informative response, thank you will be giving that a try sometime today
That diagram is from a 580C service manual. Disregard it because Ed has 580SK. The image is what the parts book shows for the OEM alternator.
Ed; Just so you know--The voltage regulator is that black thing with the two screws holding it in place at the 5 o'clock position in the picture. It also holds the brush for the commutator. Here is a little more info from the service manual for you.
Yes, that is mine , thanks for the image
Excellent info, I had service tech tell me he had know idea why the alt light would be on while engine is running. A bad key switch is wwhat I mentioned to him and he said that issue could not be "" a bad switch"" like it says in that trouble shooting guide!1 So I will replace the switch anyway after reading this, whether it is bad or not. Thank very much for this list, and identifying the reg.
The ignition switch is not the issue. You have a ground on the wire from the bulb to the regulator. Either you have a wire shorted to ground or the regulator is bad.
Ed is having multiple issues which include his instrument lights. The service manual advises an ignition switch replacement if there is no corrosion present on the plug and switch terminals.
Just had removed and had new alt checked, and it is ok. Pulled switch and was dirty but all connections look ok, cleaned it up, removed two resistors ( I guess that's what they are) don't know how to test them. Will be running a new bypass wire from alt to dash, and one from tach to dash, now that I know color codes. thanks for hanging in there for me!
Want to try a new switch just cause of desperation, but will try to bypass alt /tach wires first
Reg was checked by NAPA and said it was OK.
where were these resistors? Did you do the measurements I posted?
Yes tried measurements, but got confusing info. The resistors ( or whatever they are) down deep inside dash, with all harnesses going to both of them . Black about 1 inch cubic square , with lots of ##s, pulled out and cleaned contacts
Yes you are right , switch removed cleaned and tested reinstalled, Did what you suggested (jumpered) both alt and tach, now no readings at alt, but tach and lights and volt mter all working , and getting 14.60 at the battery!! Whoopee, Thanks a bunch
Jumper wires appear to be working.14.60 at battery and tach and alt gauges working!! Thaks a bunch, for hanging in there with me, as I am an amatuer, obviously.
When you say you got confusing readings what did you get? I gave you 4 simple measurements to take. Based on the results of these measurements I could tell you what is wrong.
Ran two new wires yeaterday (inside a protective hose). Now reading 14.20 at alt and at battery, tach is working and voltmeter is moving! Appears to be solved, but still having turn signals and hazard light issues, Don't hear clicking on turn signals
Burned out bulbs and or a defective turn signal relay could be the cause. Check the fuse panel to.
Yes, I replaced all bulbs, whether they were bad or not. relays wil be next
When you activate the turn signal does the bulb light up and not flash or does nothing happen?
Nothing,but when i first installed new alt and replaced three bulbs in dash it was clicking, didn't notice a light but outside lights were working at that time, but not now. Spot lights are working front and rear, but not hazards. Fuel gauge also not moving. haven't checked bulbs on the outside yet . It has a flashing warning /top of cab assume added by someone, not working either , don't know where switch is!
I'm having a similar issue with my 580c. - Alternator not charging the battery - Battery will drain completely over a night or two - Alt warning light doesn't come on when turning the key to On when the engine is stopped, like it should, but the oil pressure light does, like it should. I rewired the the whole machine from scratch last year with all new fittings and wire, well everything except accessories/lights because i dont have any lights on it lol. Replaced the circuit board behind the instrument panel, and have all new light bulbs. These were things I was planning to do to the machine anyways, and not a result of troubleshooting the battery drain problems (battery is new too btw). I double checked my wiring like 10 different times, I'm pretty sure I have all my connections right. We were having problems with the battery draining and not charging before I did any rewiring. At this point I'm pretty sure it's the alternator. Im going to run a couple actual tests on it with my meter and see if I can figure it out. Do you guys know if there is something in the alternator that could malfunction and cause the battery to drain overnight? Like a bad diode or something? I thought about making my own thread but I figured I would post here since it's pretty recent. I guess I can double check my lightbulb to make sure it wasn't a defective one. This is the charging circuit for my 580c
Best way to find your parasitic draw is by using an ammeter. The inductive pickup ones are good. You need one capable of DC amps. You want something that can read in milliamp resolution. 1 milliamp = .001 amp. Clamp this around either the negative or positive cable. it doesn't matter which battery cable to connect it on. Point the arrow toward ground the way electricity flows. If you have it backwards it will still read correctly just will have the current flow listed the wrong way. Not a big deal. A normal draw with everything off should be no more the 50mA(.050A). If it is higher than that disconnect your alternator and see if it drops. If not go one fuse at a time until it drops to 50mA or less. Once you know which fuse the draw is on, look at your electrical schematic and reinstall the fuse. Verify the draw is still there then disconnect one item at a time that is on that fused circuit. A meter like this is all you need. Fluke makes great stuff but unless you do this stuff all the time it is overkill. https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Auto-Ranging-Resistance-Capacitance-Temperature/dp/B09M6D5BDD/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=dc+amp+clamp+meter&qid=1692157130&sr=8-8
Okay so little confused. What model is this? There should be nothing drawing on batteries with key off. Altenator can’t draw anything anyhow. Only thing drawing current on a 580c should be the fuel solenoid when running. Something wrong with wiring, I think.