Ok, so I learned a lot from this site by lurking to get up enough courage to pick up a 1980 Case 580C. It looked like a tight machine and strong. Started real fast, would lift both ends at idle no problem and fast. Price seemed fair...$7500. Pins were tight, bushings in great shape, no welds on anything, no real bad leaks, basic stuff worked (minus tach, gauges, brakes, and starter push button). I topped off fluids and planned on changing fluids and filters after a day or two of use. I greased up all the pins with 3% moly grease. Anything with needle bearings or higher speed got Mystic grease. Everything took grease ok. I got the instrument cluster going (12v supply issue) and buffed it out so you can see through it. I also added a ford starter relay to the case starter relay (previous owner had been using a screwdriver). I also took apart the mechanical part of the starter relay and sanded/shined and cleaned it up for good contact. It starts fast, strong, and easy. I wanted to use the tractor for a few days to see what all I needed to buy for it, so here is where the story starts. I'm operating in sandy soil about 1/3 to maaaybe 1/2 throttle, digging out a small pond (think size of a car). I wanted to practice on level land and in soft soil taking thin passes. I was taking it easy learning the machine. No bucking or anything. Everything is going well for almost an hour and while I was swinging a backhoe bucket of dirt the engine died. It didnt sputter, make noise, screech, knock, rattle or anything. The best way I can describe it was like someone just pinched the tailpipe shut or pinched hydraulics to kill it. It died fast, but no thunk or thud was heard. I tried to start it back up and the starter would turn the engine maybe 5-10 degrees then "bounce" back. You could watch the engine fan blades. Its like something mechanical is keeping the engine from turning, almost like it being hydro-locked. Here is what I did: -checked oil, didnt have water in it or smell like diesel at all. Level was right at full line -checked radiator fluid, no oil in it. level was fine. Was able to pop cap off in 5 minutes and it didnt spew. I could touch the engine by hand. It did not overheat at all. Next day: -checked battery voltage (12.4) Jumped it at 13v still did the same thing. Voltage dropped some but not enough to be a concern. -tried starting with front bucket and a backhoe lever engaged just in case the hyd pump was hyd locked up, no go. -took a screwdriver to the flywheel inspection port and could turn the engine about 8 teeth (could go 4 teeth each direction) and then it would get hard and didnt feel comfortable prying any harder Next thoughts: -Starter seems 100% working and fine, but pull it and make sure nothing is locked up. Really dont think thats it, but its an easy thing to do. -Remove injectors to make sure I am not hydrolocked. Doubt that would be the case, or the engine oil would have indicated a problem. -Doubt flywheel bolt backed out into the housing, would think that would have made noise. -Pull hydraulic pump and try to spin over engine. Wondering if the pump didnt break a tooth and then lock up? I assume that could stop an engine like that. Thinking this is the most likely candidate. -Read somewhere someone had an injector pump fail and it locked up an engine. I would think the engine would overcome and break it, but its a thought. I'm really leaning towards the hyd pump breaking a tooth and locking up or something of that nature. Hate to have to drain the hyd fluid to pull the pump though to see if the engine and the pump both turn separately. Based off what I describe, what would be yall's next move to troubleshoot it? Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond. I greatly appreciate it. -Jeremy
I'd hate to venture a guess on this one, there's just so many things that could do this and none seem to make any sense. Instead of pulling the injectors, I might pull the valve cover, it's a lot easier and that will let you open the valves slightly to see if it's hydro locked, and see at least one valve operate to see that the cam is turning. Don't crank it like that, just turn by hand. That's not much movement at all in my mind, 8 teeth, I'll throw a few more possibilities out there, belt driven accessory like alternator or water pump, or the rear of the engine like a flex plate or reverser part. It seems unlikely the engine died from hydrolocking without a dramatic exit, low coolant, etc. But "bouncing back" sure seems like a hydrolock. If you threw a rod, I'd expect some clunking even when you turn it by hand. Are you sure you have to drain the hydraulic fluid to pull the pump? you might be able to loosen the pump enough that it's disconnected from the engine to verify what turns without draining the fluid. If you're suspicious of the injection pump, take apart the fuel filter if it's old, or the old one if you put a new one on, check for rust and gunk, maybe drain it to check for water. No water, rust or gunk and it's unlikely the pump locked up.
Great point on the valve cover, that didnt cross my mind on being easier. Not sure I can see much with 8 teeth of movement but I can at least get a valve to crack open hopefully. I would think hydrolock would get better after sitting for a couple days. Not to mention hydrolocking while running seems unlikely I would think. but I'm not ruling it out yet of course. I would think I could turn the engine backwards more than 8 teeth too, but who knows. The belt did give a quick squeak when it died, but I am not sure of that being indicative of anything other than a fast shut down. It squeaked on startup but stopped squeaking when running. I think I can grab the fan and alternator and "slip" them by hand to make sure they arent locked up. Probably not the water pump though. Something I can look into. I can always loosen the belt and turn each. It probably needs tightening anyhow. Flex plate and reverser are something I am not too familiar with, so I need to crack open the manual and read a little more. would figure with both the shuttle shift and the transaxle in neutral, it shouldn't give me too much grief, at least not without some racket first, but I definitely wont rule that out yet. Yep, there was no noise whatsoever, it stopped about as fast as pulling the kill knob. Maybe a little bit faster (Ive never pulled the kill knob at anything other than idle). I am not 100% sure I have to drain. There is only a short rubber hose maybe 4 or 5 inches long, then it goes to the metal line. It would be great if I could just pull the pump out enough to disengage the splines. That would be great. I haven't done that before, so I dont know just yet. I know I have read where people have to take the hoses off to just get the fan belt on. Im not too suspicious of the fuel pump, but saw it as something to look at that I didnt want to rule out just yet. Just wanted to throw it out there if that was even something that could stop the engine like that. Whatever the issue is, I will make sure and post back on here so the thread isnt open ended and no one is left wondering. I got a feeling though that I have at least a few days of head scratching working on it though tracking it down. Delmer, thanks for taking the time to respond and help me out. Its greatly appreciated. i'll get it back up to the house and try to work on it this weekend.
Jeremy I'll answer you here rather than the other site because I think there's far more knowledgeable individuals for backhoes here that will be able to advise you better than me. I was digging in mud up to the belly pan when the motor just stopped suddenly. How I determined the exact problem ( after a bit of trouble shooting) was by stripping the engine from the top down I may have had the head off before realizing just what had happened. A valve was jammed right into the head of the piston. The cost of the repair was less than a thou. doing it myself.
Hoping that's not the case, but if it is I'll tackle it. Thanks Billrog
You can pry that pump back far enough without draining - though that wouldn't be a bad idea anyway on a machine that old that you just got. You could lube the splines while you're there - they're probably all rusty. Maybe not in Texas. The book says do it every 6 months. I'll bet most don't get done until there's an issue up front there somewhere. I'd change the fan belt while you're in there. Get the best one you can buy - not the cheapest. I wired an extra one up against the motor in case mine breaks down on the lower 40 somewhere. At least I'll be able to drive it home to work on it. If you are just learning the backhoe controls and just going through the motions with an empty bucket and not actually digging and making it work, it's ok to use partial throttle but if you're making it dig, I'd turn it up. I think it's easier on the motor and the hydraulics will have the power they need. You can pull the levers as slow as you want so you aren't jerking or thrashing it. I know you were trying to take it easy on it but I think it made it harder on it instead.
Good advice from Delmer. Sounds like a valve and or camshaft problem.
Good to hear about the pump. Yep I can imagine it will be rusted to the spline. I've heard of tying a spare belt and will definitely be doing that. I guess I should clarify, when I said digging, I was pulling 1" passes and getting partial buckets. I had the throttle up enough and was moving slow enough not to hear the engine bog. I agree it's easier on the pump at full throttle. Kind of like running a lawn mower or shredder. Easier on hydraulics. I never once bounced or bucked the machine (ok....maybe once ). It's actually really easy to operate smoothly. You can feel the slack in things and hear the engine and stay in tune with that stuff and go pretty smoothly.
Really good advice I would follow it and check under the valve cover and it's easy to do I personally lean towards the pump I have seen more than one pump lock up similar to what your described and with it wanting to spring back when you turn it I am still leaning on pump I am not sure about case but I know on the older Deere machines there was a coupler between the pump shaft and the crankshaft if it got rusted up it would not shear. The idea was if the pump grenades then the coupler shears and protects the engine I have only seen 2 machines were when the pump seized it bent the crank because they were running wide open and the coupler wouldn't shear Just my .02
Cant thank everyone enough for all the advise and suggestions. I'll report back after digging into it deeper this weekend. Thanks yall.
Now that makes sense, the coupler springs back against the engine. Couldn't see how any other possibilities made sense before that.
Welp...had a little daylight to look at it. Hydraulic pump looks to be the issue. I was able to shine with a flashlight and see the splines were torqued and flaking. I pulled the pump partially out and the engine turned over just fine. I left the pump hooked up to the hoses until my new one arrives. I could not turn the pump by hand...but it was tough getting anything on the shaft to even try to spin it. Hopefully the pump internals just locked up and there's nothing else that caused it. Guess I won't know until I take it out. The only thing I worry is that if there was some valve that failed that caused it to lock up. One thing that seemed odd to me was that the outriggers were holding the backhoe up. I used the levers and it did not let the machine down. I had to crack a line at each cylinder and lift them with a come-a-long and let them bleed the pressure. I needed to pull the machine to higher ground with potential rain coming. Hopefully it's nothing, just thought it was wierd the outrigger levers wouldn't let the machine down. In the back of my mind I wonder if something didn't plug or fail (other than the pump) to cause the issue. Either way I think a new pump is needed....just hoping it doesn't lock up with pressure soon as the new one is on.
Change filters and lid before you fire it up my best bet would be the pump just worse out and the gears came apart it's pretty hard to hurt the systems on those old backhoes
I guess you'll be changing that fluid after all. Check the lines underneath from the reservoir - esp. the metal ones. I had a small pin hole in one of mine where the metal got thin. I'm sure you guys get less corrosion down there but you don't want to have to drain all that new fluid out - or have it pissed out all over the ground - anytime soon. It's also a good time to change any hose that looks questionable because they will blow and shower you or something with hot oil - and you'll be getting rid of more of the old oil. I'd cut the old filter open and have a look inside. Might as well do the rest of those fluids and filters while you're in maintenance and repair mode. The C is a good machine. I think you'll like it - except for the wiring, maybe.
Glad you found it & it wasn't an "engine" problem.. it still looks like your gonna have to dig deep tho.. A lot of labor & 450.-550.00 for a pump & lots of hydro. fluid.. Good luck w/ the repair. Read the print on those pumps.. a lot ofm say "warrantable only if system flushed by an authorized dealer" ..
The outrigger response was normal. They are equipped with load check valves, preventing cylinder movement until the supply oil is pressurized.
I bet this thing digs better than it ever has once you get the pump fixed.
Got left hanging there. Did it get fixed, was it the pump? How hard was it to fix and did it cause any other damage?