I have a 1979 Case 580C Backhoe $4300 special. It runs and all the hydraulic circuits function, but for what I paid, that should tell you a little bit of the condition it is in. It has started well until recently. It has to turn over a long time before it starts to fire, then, it takes 10 to 30 seconds for all the cylinders to fire and idle properly. The fuel tank is a mess. I removed it to clean the rust out and coat the inside. I have a substitute tank in the meantime and of course new fuel filters. This if the FIRST diesel I have owned, so I may be a bit ignorant especially with the fuel injection system. My guess is that the injectors could be clogged or maybe the fuel inection pump is not putting out enough pressure to the injectors. It spits out alot of black smoke while trying to start it, then after it runs for a minute, it turns to a dark grey color. My assumption it that the injectors are not atomizing the fuel properly so I am attempting to clean the system. I attempted to remove the fuel injectors, noting the exact depth of the injector, but realized I have to remove the valve cover to fully unscrew the injector. At this point, I feel it is best to consult someone on this site that actually knows what they are doing add offer advice. I have pictures and will try and include them. Thanks for any input!
First off, that's normally referred to as as "pencil" style injector, and you have disassembled that one, probably changing the setting even if you get it back together near where it was. There's a small slide hammer puller that slips into the grooves where you removed the lock plates and they usually will come straight out fairly easily, though sometimes they're stuck like they're welded in. Any decent fuel injection shop can test them for you, checking opening pressure and spray pattern. Prices may have gone up but the last time I bought any they were less than $100 each. http://www.amazon.com/OTC-7121-Pencil-Type-Injector-Nozzle/dp/B000FN4P26
I marked the jam nut and top piece and used a micrometer to measure the dept that it was set at. I figured that this might be a "bad Idea" to go much further so hence the post. I am not sure how to find a shop that does this kind of work. I am close to flint, michigan so I will start there and head south. Thanks for the info, I thought I would have to unscrew it, not pull it out. I will have to figure out how to pull it out with what I have available, thanks for the picture and the link, that helps alot. Can I soak the whole injectors in something? should I continue to disassemble, clean them, set them to my best ability, then have them checked? I guess what I am asking: Is this the proper method to clean the injectors then have them calibrated by someone? It is to late for me to call around tonight, but I will get right on it tomorrow. Is there something I should clean or check on the injector pump itself? I do know better then to rip into that because I think it is rotationally timed and I haven't ran across any service manual for it yet. Also, I would like to check the compression of the engine, I guess I have to use the injector hole for that and retrofit a diesel compression gauge for it. The tractor has 6000+ hours (broken tach cable) on it and I do not know of any other test I can do on the engine to give me an idea of the mechanical state it is in. Sorry, I am asking alot, but while I am in the area I thought I would check as much out as I can. Thanks for the reply. I will call some shops tomorrow.
Penetrating oil usually helps, sometimes the carbon buildup at the bottom sort of glues them in. I wouldn't do anything to them other than pull them, most shops have an ultrasonic cleaner that does an excellent job without damaging anything. The only thing that needs cleaning usually is the tiny spray ports at the tip get carboned up, all the manufacturers tell you not to clean them mechanically as any tool you use to remove material will change the size or shape of the spray holes. As far as the injector pump I wouldn't mess with it at all other than making sure you have a good flow of clean fuel to it and it's bled out good. To me they're a bit like an old swiss watch inside, if you haven't done a few, don't open anything up, let the experts take care of it. Start with the injectors make sure they're up to snuff, check the valve lash, if you can, check compression. And you'll need to do something with that governor linkage setup on the side of the pump, you have a bolt sheared or missing or something there, it's ugly. Maybe The Pump Guy will chime in here, he's our goto expert on injection matters
Thanks again, I am going to pull the injectors right now and see what they look like. I was worried that water got in the injector pump and injectors and may have gummed things up....hence the gas tank pull. "Ugly", well, ah, yes, I didn't show pics of the rest of the tractor......I didn't want to scare anyone who laid eyes on FrankenTractor! I was not planning on using it as much as I have and found out how darn usefull it really is. I have strong thoughts of restoring it because it is so handy and I have a bad back so it lifts everything for me. But.......I just fixed the brakes, it has no electrical harness, etc. I was starting it with a screw driver for a while until I made a starting circuit. I am in the middle of assembling it after I broke the loader arm clean off of the frame mount. Luckily the front bucket hoses held it on while I dragged it into the garage. I have to use it immediately to finish some jobs around here, but I have taken precautions not to screw up the engine. Just installed oil pressure and water temp gauge on the block (yeah I was very nervous running it blind) and have good oil, antifreeze, and filters on the engine. I did not know that the valves need to be lashed. I assumed it had hydraulic lifters. So is it at .018 to .020" lash? I will try and look that up. That will make a big difference if that is off. I am generally a DIY guy, but this tractor absolutely demands it. When I price parts, I think they should be branded Ferrari, not Case. My 2 hoses that held the loader arms on cost $141.06, $106 was labor. I don't think 15 minutes is worth that so I am now looking at dyes for my hydraulic lines and assemble them myself. Brakes were rediculous even with the fact that I rivited them on myself. I don't mean to sound like I am complaining, but I have built many high end vehicles and the cost vs. worth of parts is very wide with tractors. So I am not afraid to do it all myself even if I make a big mistake I am still ahead of the game. I do have a manual, but it is not as specific as I would like it to be. I priced out what a new tractor costs OMG, so I then priced out what it would take to refurbish FrankenTractor. That, I can afford. I thought I would give you a little history so you know where I am coming from. Thanks so much for the information, That really helps. I didn't have the time to find that information. Also, I really don't know what govenor linkage you are talking about, I will have to find an engine picture to compare. But Ugly it is!
"I am close to flint, michigan so I will start there and head south. " I'm in Pontiac and take all my stuff to northern diesel in Utica. A few of my coworkers live out by you let me ask @ the shop tomorrow & see if there's anybody decent closer to you.
Sounds good... for the odd hydraulic hose now and then, find a place online or close to you where you can get two wire hose by the foot and matching reusable fittings, those old machines don't run high pressures and you can cut the hose to the length you need with a fine tooth hacksaw or cutoff wheel, install the end fittings yourself and be back in business before you could drive somewhere. Usually you only need two sizes of hose and a dozen fittings to be prepared to change out just about any hose on your machine. Never seen a diesel with hydraulic lifters, but there may be some. I don't know the lash settings, you need to find that information, if they're set cold or hot, and the sequence as you turn the engine step by step. I was talking about the last picture you posted of the injection pump, the arm the control rod is attached to has a big hole in the end there were it used to be bolted to the center of the throttle shaft, also has a couple sheet metal screws jammed in the override spring to "farmer" it into working, kinda! Cheers :drinkup
Okay a buddy of mine from Davison happened to have called. He said nobody in flint he would trust. Saginaw but he can't remember the name of the shop. Just to get the injectors tested you could try AIS, or maybe Graff truck @ Saginaw st & 69. Like I said I use northern diesel in Utica but that is a bit of a drive for you. Do you have any numbers off that engine? I think I might have the manual for it if that's helpful as well. Our old shop 4k fork truck has one that looks the same. That'll help with the engine. Exotic automation/parker has a pretty good store up there. Or at least the guy @their Rochester hills store says they're pretty good. They can help you out with the hose & reusable fittings.
Also check for a Parker hydraulic store , they make replacement hoses at very good prices.
Just got the injectors out, that took a little more effort then I thought. I put them in vinegar to clean them overnight. Two of the injector tips had a little carbon on it. I am familiar with the truck dealership on saginaw st., I will call them tomorrow. I bought my fuel filters at or right by AIS in bridgport, they might be a good place concerning the injectors. I will drive to Utica if they are the best ones to deal with. As far as hoses, Nelson Hydraulic split that part of the business to a guy in davison on state street. I had to buy as cylinder seal from them and they were great. I can't remember why I didn't get hoses done there, but exotic is the only place that I know of around here. That is the place that I spent $141.52 on 5/21/15 for two short hoses. I am looking for another place to do business with. The hose and fittings are not that much, just alot of labor cost. I never paid much attention the the custom screw job. I looked a bit closer at it today, and I would definitely say that does look a bit scary to me. I will have to find out what went wrong or broke and make something up properly. There is sooooo many other things to fix, it didn't appear to be an immediate concern. I now have injector fear and would like to tidy up the system. Thanks alot for the help, I got to get it back in service soon and will be fixing it along the way.
A picture as they say: http://partstore.casece.com/us/ASCOEQ-Branch15/parts-search.html#epc::mr49912ar321064
I had AIS in new hudson test a set of injectors out of a cummins for me a while back just because they were the closest place. So thats a starting point for you on that. None of the guys here @ work know of any other place reliable out in Flint. In the interest of time, age, and $ you might be ahead to just order some new ones and throw them in. There was an old British guy around Pontiac who ran a fuel system shop for awhile I'll see if I can get hold of him too. Maybe he can take a look at that pump linkage and scrounge up some parts for it. Although he always said roosamaster used to make refrigeration systems and thats why the british drink their beer warm. Im surprised that exotic/parker charged you that much. Did you have them come to you or did you take the hoses in to them? I always take the hoses off and take them in and they have never charged anywhere even near that. I think the guy might have fat fingered something on accident when he invoiced the job out. I'd call them on it. Anyway I'll try and get a hold of Bob Lee (the brit) and like Lantraxco said hoipefully "pumpguysc" will show up soon. He is definitely the wizard with the voodoo that happens inside those injection pumps.
Thanks for the picture, that is worth 1,000 words. I went to Exoctic close to business end and brought in my old hoses. I can't really understand the bill so I will check on that. Your at the mercy with most of these stores because there are so few of them. Most contractors rent there equipment or have a service contract with someone, so the few people that I know that run heavy equipment don't fix anything on them. This sure is the right forum to discuss this, I really appreciate the expert advice. Found tappet lash at .012" Intake, .014" Exhaust measured cold. I overlooked that and will definitely check that out.
This is what I initially broke, Just putting it all together now.
OUCH!! I sent you a PM I need an email addy for you and I can get you the engine information
Not sure how to check for PM, my email is [email protected] Thanks
As you can see from Lantraxco's pic.. your missing a screw, a bushing and spring on the IP throttle.. I HAD a million of them till the shop burnt down and still have several hundred at work but haven't been back THERE for a month or 2.. and don't plan on it for awhile.. IF you can give me the #'s off the name plate on the pump, I'll give you some engine info.. There is a P# on the injector but you'll need a wire wheel to see them its a 5 digit # and you can do a search on the net..
AHH The oracle makes his presence known. Thank you pumpguy (hope you're feelling better) & Lantraxco. bjstorm69 I sent you a couple of emails with some info as well.
My reply didn't go through. email is [email protected] AIS in bridgeport will test all four of them for $30. Sounds very reasonable. Graff truck, CIS and a fewother companies locally don't do it. I also found new injectors on ebay for around $25.00. So I will go that route and buy new ones. The part number I have is A140828, the injectors on ebay are A140829. They look the same. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Fuel-Inje...751?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee113fb5f
I would hold off on ordering those until we can maybe get pumpguy to chime in again. Different p/n means something is different. Nozzle or spring maybe? yes they look the same but the calibration is probably different. Unless someone comes along that knows more than me I would keep looking for the ones with the same #.
NOZZLE ASSEMBLY - injector (Supplier No. 20673 color code white and yellow) (Before engine serial no. 2869290), Product No: A140828 Got your engine serial number there? Never trust anything on a used machine, may have been replaced at some point.
IF you " floogle" "20673 injector" you get a hundred at various prices.. the 20673 fit a 188 engine.. the pump #'s will tell me what engine you have.. OR lightly sand the injector shaft just above and below the hold down slot.. You'll probably find the P# 20673..
Me things you do not have a fuel problem, black smoke to much fuel not enough air,the engine taking a long time to run smooth it cant burn all the fuel that has been injected in the cylinder,you have a problem with air coming into the cylinder.
Engine plate says: 207D 2821199 I disassembled the air cleaner and hoses, cleaned it all out and replaced the air filter. The tractor has all new oil, filters, and coolant. That includes the shuttle, trans & axle, and hydraulics. All that in under six months. Worked late and couldn't get alot done. I didn't realize there were so many variations withing the injectors. I am looking at putting new hardware on the pump for what is missing, thanks for catching that. I appreciate all the help and advice.
Also, the injectors look pretty beat up, they have been removed before. I could not find any #'s on them. I cleaned them all and put them back in thinking I can get new ones at $25 a piece. I am thinking on bleeding the fuel system, starting it, then fix the missing pump parts. Once I have confirmed that it runs and I didn't screw anything up, then I will set the valve clearance.
Pump #'s 2152389 A-148069
According to the pump #'s, the pump fits a 207 engine, not a 188..
My manual dosn't list this pump for either engine. Since it is a 207 the manual lists three Roosa Master pumps, 20552/A50970 , 20674/A140827, and 22365/A154542. These #'s don't appear on my pump.
A-148069 is a reman number: Case Re_Built INJECTION PUMP for 207D Diesel Engine. OEM Ref # A151113, A148069, DBGFCC431-58AJ, DBGFCC431-64AJ, DBO-3018, DBO-3205 Fits: Case 580C Backhoes
Ok so @ this point he's got the correct reman injection pump of unknown age and old beat up injectors also of unknown age. And what appears to be a mixture problem. Not enough air or too much fuel. What were the results of the injector pop test? Getting that done will tell us quit a bit.
Yeah, injectors would be my guess, opening early and too much fuel in a bad pattern?
I am trying to wrap this up so this post dosen't have 6 pages to it! But......I seem to get myself into some difficult predicaments. The injectors had what appeared to be red locktight on their shafts so it took me half a day to get them out. Obviously this tractor has been worked on before and short cuts have been taken. I cleaned and put the injectors back in just to check them (no red locktight this time). I thought I should fix the missing parts on the injector first and found a broken drill bit in the injector throttle shaft. I started fiddling with that when the linkage arm just fell off, I just about lost my cookies on that. I can't figure out how that could happen, it must have been beaten up pretty good in the past. I am brazing that on right now and hope to get that all assembled tonight/tomorrow. I would like some advice on a leak on the injector. It is dripping from a star shaped nut with an allen bolt running through it. This is located on the bottom angled towards the engine. I haven't looked at a breakdown on the injector yet to figure this out. Since the injector has been replaced with a rebuilt unit, how do I know what injector it should have and what injectors it uses. I would appreciate some light on that subject because I can't seem to figure that out yet. I will wrap this up as fast as I can and really appreciate all the help. Here is the pick of the throttle shaft with the drill bit stuck in it.
Lots of opposing information out there... now according to the case parts breakdown (the link I posted earlier) that part number is correct as original, not reman, my error. In any case, if the pump is the correct replacement it will still take the same injectors, UNLESS for some reason the power curve is being changed, which is almost never the case on these old engines. Now, according to the same parts catalog: http://partstore.casece.com/us/ASCOEQ-Branch15/parts-search.html#epc::mr49912ar351186 The injector number for your engine serial number is correct A140828 and the manufacturers number of 20673. I would think as long as the ones you buy reference the 20673 they should be correct. You really need a new throttle arm, along with the bushing and bolt and a new spring.
DAMN.. I thought I was having some bad luck.. Lol. The data tag you posted said 207D along w/ the SN.. The pump # you have, goes for a 207D.. The P# you have for the injectors go to a 207D..[20673] I think your in the clear as far as that goes.. IF your going to Braze the throttle back on, DISCONNECT THE BATTERY FIRST.. If you don't get the throttle back on correctly, your going to have throttle travel problems.. either it wont open-up to full RPMs or it wont idle down enough and you'll have to decide which way to adjust it with the linkage.. IF you look on pg 1 on Lantraxco's pic of the injector, you'll see a hole under the nut.. its supposed to leak.. IT shouldn't be visible with the cap on tho.. I can provide you w/ the P#'s of the throttle shaft, bushing, spring and screw if you need it.. its probably gonna be cheaper going thru a fuel shop than from case..
I would appreciate the part numbers for the throttle arm and spring. I can't find a parts breakdown with part numbers on it on the web. I removed the throttle shaft last night and welded it up. I also found a spring and made the whole thing work. I will replace it when I can. From what I have read(and youtube vid) the pumps have very specific tolerances on the internal springs especially for the govenor circuit. I put everything together and started the tractor, still the same issue, so I am going to take care of the injectors today. I try to work/fix on thing at a time on something like this that I am not familiar with. I don't mind pulling the injectors again, I wanted to see if I screwed something up on the pump during my repair. Seems OK so I will test the injectors.
email sent
Another simple but important thing to check is the valve adjustment. If it is an old machine, my hunch is the valves should be set. A few thousands off here and there make a big difference in power and starting.
Well, I guess there is a reason I am a junior member......I thought that most engines have hydraulic lifters in them. I should have spent a day reading a manual thoroughly because after I bought a set of new injectors, the tractor did the same thing but stalled out. Frustrated, I started looking at everything and ended up pulling the valve cover off. The rockers were about 1/8 inch loose and I had a bent push rod. Its amazing it ran as well as it did. I straightened everything out, lashed the valves and tried to start it. I couldn't get it started and believe it may be flooded? Two of the injectors I pulled out earlier were wet, so I am thinking that I soaked the cylinders with fuel. I roughly checked cam timing and it seems to be ok, and checked the fuel pump at TDC and its timing marked lined up so that seems ok. So, I am thinking that I will turn the engine over with the fuel shut off to try and clear the cylinders. I hope I am correct because that makes sense to me, then again, so do hydraulic lifters. I got the four injectors for under $120 and the valve cover gasket for about $25 from reliable aftermarket parts. I drove to Williamston, Mi and picked them up. They were really good to deal with and have alot of items on Ebay. They will match prices and their phone # is 1-888-672-7876 if anyone is interested. The injector pump is leaking alot from the bottom bolt and I will check that out once I get it running. Does anyone know of a Roosa Master rebuild manual? Someday I would like to rebuild it, but from what I can tell, it is quite and operation. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.
Before you go diving into the pump again.. get yourself a strong flashlite and some paper towles.. I'll bet the leak is coming from the oring on the throttle shaft and dripping down to the lowest point. I need your email address to send you the parts breakdown on the pump.. you can "sign in" and click on my name and that will give you options to send me a note with out anyone else seeing it.. I cant post it to the web cuz of dealer agreements.. When you try to start it, pull the throttle wide open, MAKE SURE the shut-off is in the run position.. loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS afew turns and spin the engine until fuel squirts out of all of them, then tighten them up.. The KEY HERE is the engine has to be spinning fast enough to create enough heat to fire the fuel going IN THE ENGINE.. IF its lugging or slow, your wasting your time.. Best to use 2 batteries or just wait until 1 is FULLY CHARGED. TRY to stay away from starting fluid.. that's what probably bent the PR's in the first place.. Good luck.
The leak was from the "head locator screw" which has a check valve and 2 o-rings on it. It is a strange place to leak from so that is why I am thinking of rebuilding it someday. I just removed it and replaced the two o-rings. I am unsure how I could test the injectors so I reasoned that I could connected them to the fuel line and shoot the nozzles in air. From my observation, I had one good injector, another that had an obstructed orfice, and the other two didn't atomize the fuel, just shot it as a stream. The new injectors all looked great with nice atomization and fuel spray patterns, so I believe that this was a good choice to replace the old ones. Despite all my efforts, I can't seem to get the engine to fire. It is not producing the black smoke as before, but the exhaust is getting hot and it tries to fire. I checked the timing of the injection pump and cam timing to be sure they were within spec. There is no chain to break, everything runs on gears. I can't find anything else wrong so I started looking at everything else. I feel confident that the fuel system is ok so my next place to look at is the cylinders compression. I don't have a compression gauge for diesel yet and will get one next week. The engine oil level never changed and the color never changed so I looked at the cooling system. When I opened up the radiator cap, there was a substantial amount of pressure in the system and it was cold. I filled up the radiator and turned the engine over and saw alot of bubbles coming out of the radiator fluid and it stopped as soon as the engine stopped turning over. I will try and confirm this later this week with a compression gauge. In the meantime I will be rounding up parts for this job and a few parts for the injection pump and cylinder head gasket. I am not sure if this was a result of the bad injectors , the "loose" valvetrain, or age. Either way, it looks like alot of my time will be spent on this project next week. Thanks again for all of your help, please feel free to email me at [email protected] , I can use the advice and commits on this tractor.
She was probably getting tired and somebody took to using too much ether to get her spinning... or it's just age, hopefully a new head gasket will be about all you need to round out the story and make her hum.
Only a few ways compression can get in a radiator... 1. Blown head gasket in just the right spot...only from combustion chamber to cooling poet, I would not suspect this as normally-as in almost all of the time- the water seeps past the piston into the oil. You can check this by backing off the oil pan drain...if there is water there it will start coming out before the bolt is removed. 2. Crack in the head...but usually the same symptoms as above. 3. Broken Block...or in your case...if you are lucky...cracked sleeves- I would suspect sleeves this more than anything else. You can get a combustion leak check for the radiator that does not cost much and it will tell you if exhaust gases are coming out of the radiator Lisle 75500 Combustion Leak Detector is about $35...and quite often really worth the money.