Ok, with much help from nova481, I was finally able to get this beast running today, but now I find the problems. Seems one of the main backhoe swing cylinders is leaking like a faucet. (see attachment) Also, the steering doesn't work, steering wheel spins fine but wheels never move, it has fluid in the pump, so I've got some more checking and testing before I pay the man, but so far not bad, the motor sounds good for having sit for 10 years Also, the backhoe controls and tranny shifter were almost rusted in place and almost gave up when they broke free thanks to PB Blaster and WD40.
If you want to reseal them your self. Those swing cylinders are fairly easy to reseal without removing them. Be sure to look for a small lock screw where the gland and cylinder barrel mate. After you pull the rod and piston out of the barrel, reattach the rod to boom so you can remove the nut (or bolt) on the end. If you would rather take the cylinder somewhere (hydraulic repair shop) to have the resealing done, disregard the dis-assembly advice.
If you don't mind me askin , how much for the machine
Thanks Tinkerer, that's what I need to know, it has a few other one leaking, just not as bad, also going to need some hoses, so after posting this last night, I started checking into the cost of cylinder repair and making my own hoses, and not having to remove this one from the machine makes repairing it much better. Hi Bill, for years I'd been looking at this hoe sitting in the backyard rusting away, never being used, and every year I'd ask the old guy what he wanted for it, 10 years ago it was $10,000, 5 years ago it was $7000, so while helping the daughter with her furnace the other day, asked her to call him and see how much for the old backhoe, he said $4000. So I cam home and cleaned up my old Ford 3500 Ind. tractor with loader and bush hog and put it on Craigslist for $4500, then sold it along with a Hay spear for $4000, since then, I've been over there 3 time now working on it to make sure it's worth $4000, because already having owned a tractor with leaking cylinders and almost burning up the power steering pump, these machines can run into some big dollars in repairs. The main reason I'm buying it is for Flood Protection, I live about 1000' from a normally dry creek, west fork of the Stones River, but in Oct. 2009, we had 8" of rain and my 32 year HVAC business was almost ruined, as the water was 4 ft deep in my shop, which was full of ductwork and heating/cooling equipment and tools and mowers, golf cart, pressure washer, etc. And that made the mortgage company try to force me to get flood insurance, but it never reached my house. So I'm planning on digging a ditch between me and that creek so it doesn't flood me out next time.
If you do repack the hydraulic cylinders yourself,be careful to not allow the new composite packing's on the piston to make any contact with the barrel threads. I found out the hard way what can happen. Like take it apart and repack it again. I now make a plastic sleeve from a one gallon milk carton. Big enough to cover the lower half of the barrel threads and extended long enough out the barrel so I can hold it from sliding into the barrel while inserting the rod and piston assembly.
Now that's interesting, what happens to the packing when it touches the barrel threads? And is that true for ANY cylinder? Maybe that's what happened to a power steering cylinder I tried to repair awhile back, after replacing the seals, it lasted about 2 weeks before leaking again. Looks like some Allen head or Torx screws holding the cap on, or does it un-screw from the barrel like some of the others I've worked on?
The swing cylinders are subject to bent rods on this machine due to design and operator abuse. Once the rods are bent, the gland packing will leak pretty badly. If you remove the cylinders, check the rods for any bend before you do any other repair. I had both of mine rebuilt at a hydraulics shop where they put new stainless rods, honed the tube bore and replaced all the packings. I did the bushings while they were off and replaced all the hoses and bolts for the swing bearing mountings. Several years now and no more leaks, tight and will give me years more service. Cost for both cylinders a couple of years ago, $1400 CDN. Jess
The threads are sharp as razors and they will shave the packing material. Slide the packing about 3/8 or 1/2 inch across the threads and you have a problem.
That makes sense, I'll be sure and be as careful as possible. Now to the steering, I checked the fluid level before starting it and it was very low, just below the bottom of the dip stick. But I really just needed to see if it would fire up because if it didn't run, it wasn't worth much to me. But after hitting the air intake with either, then hitting the starter a few times, it started up and kept on running, noticed swing cylinder pouring fluid and no steering, like the steering wheel spins, so shut it down and retrieve some hydraulic fluid and filled up the power steering pump, but didn't have enough juice or diesel fuel to get it running again. So, my question: did I damage the power steering pump?
Could just have air or a packing is bad in one of the steering cylinders. Bad packing would be my first choice due to age and history of those cylinders.
Thanks sheepfoot, went there today to try to get it ready to bring home, an hour away, and after filling the pump with oil, it's starting to wake up and turn the wheels. but you're right, the right side cylinder is leaking some, so that's number 3 I'll have to fix. My immediate problem is the swing cylinder leaking like a faucet, I put 5 gallons of hyd. fluid in it and fired it up, to check steering, but I also needed to move the hoe back to center, but with it leaking out so fast, I can hardly move it 3" before it stop and it's empty. Also, it's coming out looking like milk and that's not good, looks like I'm in for a major rebuild job and a cheap place to buy Hyd fluid, come Spring
If I am not mistaken thats 580C not a CK
MrKool, If the hydraulic oil has water in it and it leaks out that fast, catch in a clean bucket then filter it through a paint strainer and reuse it. You are going to have to determine how the water got in the oil. Then you will need to do a complete flush and refill of the entire system. Be careful though if there is tooo much water in the oil you could damage your hydraulic pump. Here is a link to thread that will guide you through the flushing procedure. HeavyEquipmentForums Be sure to read the links posted in that thread.
Yeah Truck, it's a 580C not a CK, just thought it was since it's got "Construction King" on the canopy. Tinkerer, the oil is all out, so my next job is to repair the swing cylinder seals and flush the whole system and fill with fresh oil. So, when I go back up, I'll need Cylinder Seals, a Spanner wrench and a cheater bar to repair the swing cylinder, and an air compressor to blow out the lines and fill the flat tire. I'm a little confused as to how much fluid I'll need to get and what filter or filters I'll need to get, so if someone can point me to the page in the service manual or just give me the numbers, that would save me some time. Probably going to be an all day job getting it cleaned up enough to keep from damaging the pump(s) while I attempt to drive it around and getting it ready to bring home. On another note, I'm going to have to replace most of the hoses on this machine, so should I invest in some hose and connector making equipment? Thanks
hi mrkool Glad I could help with your project Wait till you see what your getting into with these old machines but it is fun working on them especially if your successful When your ready to repack your steering cylinders the members here were a great help when I did mine below is the link Good luck Ron
I recently resealed a main boom cylinder on a 580B and it wasn't a bad job at all, took at the most 2 hours. I'm not sure if the swing cylinders are the same but the boom cylinders came with either a 1 or 2 piece piston and the seals are different... You'll need a pin wrench (I think that's what it's called) to take the head off the cylinder and a big wrench to take the nut off the rod and piston assembly. Also, before you take the head off the cylinder look for a lock, if I remember right on the main boom cylinder I did it was a little lock nut that required an allen key to get out. As for hose making equipment, I sure wish I had some! My local parts shop is great at making hoses and such but it sure would be nice to just be able to wander over to the machine and cook up a new hose instead of driving into town 30 minutes one way... Keep up the good work and thanks for the pictures
let me try the steering cylinder link again
Alright, I've checked out the steering cylinder and should not be a problem, but the swing cylinder maybe a different story. Been checking around for the best deal on some swing seals and found these : http://www.ebay.com/itm/1543273C1-Case-Cylinder-Seal-Kit-450-B-550E-G-580-780-B-850-B-C-D-E-1150B-C-G-/220877539957#vi-content And for steering seals here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/A44644-Case-Backhoe-Loader-Steering-Cylinder-Seal-Kit-480-480B-480C-580B-580C-/320821163742?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item4ab26e76de Here a pic of the Model and Serial tag so you fine folks can help make sure I'm looking at the right seals. Really appreciate all your help, if not for you guys, I wouldn't even think about buying this machine and I'm still unsure about it.
Mr. Kool, A few years back I rebuilt all the cylinders on my 580CK except for the boom cylinder, and the loader tilt cylinders. I bought all the kits from Case and did not think they were over priced.
Thanks again Tinkerer, maybe I can use something cheap to flush the hydraulics before putting in the Hy-Tran fluid. Hey orville, that's just what I'm gonna try to do, cause it's leaking so bad I'm afraid to run it and take a chance on burning out the pump. So is that a good idea? Will it burn the pump out if it runs without oil in it? How long can it run without oil before it's damaged? Is there a way to disconnect the pump so I can get it loaded on a trailer without damaging it? My daughter works at Tractor Supply and can get me a discount on Hydraulic Fluid, will theirs work in this machine ok? Thanks
DO NOT run the pump without oil !! If you damage or ruin the pump, the whole hydraulic system will have metal in it. If you are losing oil constantly from the swing cylinder the swing valve is either stuck in the swing position or there is a problem with a spool in the valve assembly. You could try to put a chain on the boom to prevent the weight of the boom from making it try to swing. Also you can take the hoses off of the cylinders and couple them together with pipe fittings Tractor Supply should have the fittings. Be careful of the boom swinging when you are working on it. Put decent hyd. oil in the tank, that is no place to go cheap. Sooner or later all the nasty oil has to come out of the whole system.
I would not run a pump without oil, a cylinder should not leak excessive oil unless you are using that cylinder. You must have a bad leak somewhere from the pump to the valve body. I once had a real bad hose and wrapped inner tube on the leak and clamped with hose clamps so I could move it to a convenient place to work on it.
I buy all my fluids at Tractor Supply. Try PATCO down near the the driver's license testing place for making your hoses. They've been really helpful making mine and being sympathetic to me knowing a lot. Packratc
Thanks Tinkerer, orville and packratc, I was just looking at the oil at Tractor Supply, a little cornfused about how much it takes and how much I should use just to drive/run it for 30 minutes, long enough to get it on the trailer. The manual says Reservoir refill is 17 gallons, but the Loader/Backhoe Capacity is 28 gallons, so I'm wondering, since the tank is empty, can I get by with 17 or do I have to fill it to 28 gal? It's going to be used as a flush for the first run, then after I get it back to my shop, then filters and other minor leaking seals then a full 28 gallon fill. Does this sound like it'll work and not burn up the pump?
This is from the operators manual
You would be better off capping the swing cylinder hoses at the cylinders or looping the valve body if you do not want to lose all the oil. If the cylinder is being pressurized all the time on an open center system like this you probably have a worn spool or o rings. Some leakage is normal. The cylinder absolutely has to be repacked. The good thing is that machine is so popular you will be able to take the cylinder apart, and get the seals the same day from a supplier
Don't know that I wouldn't pull the boomon around with my truck as it looks like it's locked in the upright position. Then I'd chain up the stabilizers and chain the boom in place to keep it from moving. Then I might take the backhoe pump off of the front of the engine. Oh, You've got to lift up the loader with something, a tractor loader, and block it up with angle iron on the cylinders. If you do all that you should be able to just fill the transmission with the TSC oil and see of this thing will move. I can't tell if you're going to trailer it or drive it home. It takes a pretty good trailer and truck to haul around 14000 lbs. Do you even know if the thing will pull itself? I guess what I'm suggesting in a nutshell is to bypass the hoe and try to get the tractor rolling. You do have the engine running on it's own fuel supply don't you? TSc won't have the fittings to put these hoses together. Go to PATCO but take your hoses with you so they can match up the fittings. Good luck, packratc
I forgot to mention, since we all know that you're wealthy, I mean if you own a backhoe it's a given, buy 10, 5 gallon buckets of the cheap hydralic fluid in the yellow buckets with the green tops at TSC and with the rest of your money buystock in TSC or Case. I made a pipe funnel that fits both the loader and the transmission. If you're working by yourself you'll need a stout funnel as it's tough on an old man like me to suspend that 5 gallon bucket with your arms while it all drains out on your feet. You don't want to starve either the transmission pump, if you have a shuttle, nor the backhoe pump for fluid. The backhoe pump cost me $500 & I thought it was a deal. That's the one that's behind the grill and attaches to the front engine pulley. It'll take at least 5 gallons, if I remember correctly, to get the shuttle pressure guage up to 100lbs+ to get the transmission even interested in turning the wheels. That's especially true with this cold weather. And, since you can't use the stabilizers to get the wheels off the ground, it'll take longer. When I start mine these cold mornings I lift the rear wheels off the ground and put it in gear and get the wheels turning both ways before I ever try to move it. Good luck, packratc
I forgot to mention, since we all know that you're wealthy, I mean if you own a backhoe it's a given, buy 10, 5 gallon buckets of the cheap hydralic fluid in the yellow buckets with the green tops at TSC and with the rest of your money buystock in TSC or Case. I made a pipe funnel that fits both the loader and the transmission. If you're working by yourself you'll need a stout funnel as it's tough on an old man like me to suspend that 5 gallon bucket with your arms while it all drains out on your feet. You don't want to starve either the transmission pump, if you have a shuttle, nor the backhoe pump for fluid. The backhoe pump cost me $500 & I thought it was a deal. That's the one that's behind the grill and attaches to the front engine pulley. It'll take at least 5 gallons, if I remember correctly, to get the shuttle pressure guage up to 100lbs+ to get the transmission even interested in turning the wheels. That's especially true with this cold weather. And, since you can't use the stabilizers to get the wheels off the ground, it'll take longer. When I start mine these cold mornings I lift the rear wheels off the ground and put it in gear and get the wheels turning both ways before I ever try to move it. Good luck, packratc
MrKool, I sent you, or tried to send you, a private message on this forum. Never done it before so it's anybody's guess if you get it. packratc
Yeah, Diamond Equip has the packing, just have to get the number off the cylinder and have to get a gland removal tool and get some hydraulic oil and with gasoline at $3.59 here, I'm going to have some money in this hoe before I even get to use it. So, mikebramel, I can cap or connect the swing cylinder hoses and chain the backhoe down till I can get it loaded? hey nova, what's the least amount of hyd oil that I can put in to run it to get it loaded up? of course, after I fix the serious leaking swing cylinder. Last time, I lifted the rear wheels off the ground and one of them spins when I put it in gear, so pretty sure it'll move, but that'll be tested again after the hyd leaks fixed. I posted on Craigslist labor section for help with getting it here and got several offers up to $300, but one guy has a 2010 F350 Super Duty dually with a 28 ft goose neck tandem axle trailer with brakes and ramps said he can do it anytime for $115, so maybe that won't be a problem. Now my question is what fitting do I need to buy to connect the swing hoses?
You would need two at least one swivel fitting that fits one of the hoses and have standard pipe threads on the end of it. One pipe nipple, and another swivel or non-swivel fitting for the other hose. There is a Farm and Fleet store near me and they have these fittings in stock all the time. They are about $4.00 each. You Don't have to connect the swing hoses together. Each one can be capped. Any shop that makes hydraulic hoses should have the caps and / or plugs for most common size hoses. The picture I am posting is just to give you an example of what to look for.
Probably wouldn't buy a glan removal tool yet. I've been able to take all my cylinders apart with a large pipe wrench so far. The next one will prove me liar, though. As to the inner nut on the piston, I've heated a few with a torch & had to buy a 3/4 impact. The torch is needed when the last builder of the cylinder followed the directions & used locktite when reassembling. Good Luck, packratc
I would never recommend using pipe wrench on a hydraulic cylinder gland. A person might get lucky and have a gland come loose real easy using that method. But I have seen too many glands severely damaged because the pipe wrench gouged a really tight flange. Beg,borrow or buy a gland wrench. If you do buy one it will be the best $30.00 tool you ever purchased.
Tinkerer has got the best advice. I'm just telling of my own experiences with my one old hoe. The correct tool is always the best way to go. As I'm not through with all my cylinders, where can I get the right glan tool for $30, Tinkerer? Thanks, packratc
Here is where I purchased my gland wrench.. It has gone up a little in price since I bought it. $36.80. OTC brand replacement pins do fit it. If you don't have spare pins it almost certain one of them will fall out of the wrench when you aren't looking ! I couldn't even find the one I lost with a metal detector. http://www.amazon.com/CTA-Tools-860...d=1362776460&sr=8-4&keywords=gland+nut+wrench
Alright, I ordered the wrench, I might tack weld them pins in place, it looks like it's been into several times. Also, what's the best way to remove the pins that hold the cylinder head ?
do not weld the pins! they are ment to flip end for end for differant size cyl's trevor b
Is there a reason you are considering tack welding the pins ? Not a criticism just curious why. I am not familiar with your backhoe, but can't you put a punch on the bottom of them force them up ? Or are they in a blind hole ?
Is there a reason you are considering tack welding the pins ? Not a criticism just curious why. I am not familiar with your backhoe, but can't you put a punch on the bottom of them force them up ? Or are they in a blind hole ?
Wish I could help you with the hydraulic fluid level Mrkool but I barely get by working on my old backhoe Wait to you get to the brakes they are impossible
I didn't know about using different size pins in the gland tool Tinkerer and you said something about loosing yours and couldn't find them with a metal detector, so I thought if I just tacked the gland wrench pins in I wouldn't loose them, but Trevor says they come in different sizes for different cylinders, so don't weld them in place, going to be learning a new trade working on this backhoe. No Tinkerer, I haven't attempted to remove the cylinder head pins yet, I was just asking for advice on the best way to get them out, like relieve the pressure by lowering the hoe bucket to the ground them taking a sledge hammer and a piece of short pipe and drive it out? trying not to bugger it up in the process? This side looks like it needs to come up to come out, but the other side looks like it need to go down to come out, does that sound logical? Yea nova, I wish you could to, but you didn't have to bring up the brakes, cause as I was sitting on the seat pushing on the throttle, I noticed what looked like brake fluid pouring down on to the brake pedal. Are those brake cylinders up under the dash? can they be rebuilt or have to be replaced? The fix-it list is getting longer every time I go back up there, machine might not be worth 4000....
The pins in the gland wrench are held in place with an allen screw. I didn't check the screws for being tight when I received the wrench new. That is why one pin fell out.Those pins have a different size on each end. You just take them out and flip them over when the need arises. Don't forget to check if there are small lock screws located where the gland and cylinder barrel match together . Case used them on lot of cylinders but not all cylinders.
when i bought my gland wrench i orderd a spare set of pins ($15.00) that way i will never need them trevor b