Hi there - Seems I fix one thing and then another problem surfaces! I changed the fuel/water separator on my case yesterday. I filled the filter up with diesel and lubed the gasket before installing. I was totally prepared for an air lock to occur but the machine ran beautifully for about 2 hours - and then it stopped. I started it again and it ran for maybe 30 seconds and then stopped. And then any subsequent tries the engine just turned but never caught. It had the symptoms of no fuel so I treated it as I was expecting to do - trying to remove the airlock. Here are the steps I followed as its been about 6 years since I had to do this. 1) Crack nut on fuel filter 2) Cracked the vent on the injection pump and pumped had pump - diesel started dripping out. I tightened it back up 3) I cracked all 4 injectors slightly and cranked the engine - nothing came out. I then disconnected 2 injectors completely and cranked for at least 45 seconds - i didn't want to burn out my starter! No fuel came out. I should see fuel come out, correct ? Did I not crank enough long enough ? Are there any other tests to try ? Thx in advance for any tips/guidance Ron
There is a second bleeder in the lid just above the one you already bled. Try that. Joe H
Thanks Joe - I will try that and report back. Does it make sense that an airlock would show up 2 hours after installing the filter ? Is it possible the injection pump has failed ? Also - when I bleed these vents on the injection pump - should i be cranking the engine? The hand pump doesn't feel like its doing anything....
Pull the throttle to WIDE OPEN and try to bleed it again.. Loosen the bleeder by the name plate and spin the engine. It should shoot about a city block.. lol. THEN snug it back up..
Thx - when you say "spin" the engine you mean try and start it.....not spin it down by the coupler by hand correct ? And just loosen that lower nut by the name plate - don't remove it, correct ?
Is the fuel solenoid opening ?
Hi Billrog - I'm not sure - how do i test that? Should I hook up a 12v to see if I hear a click ? And to show my ignorance, where exactly is the fuel solenoid located ?
I removed this vent screw on the injection pump completely and then cranked the engine - and then gave full throttle. Diesel slowly dripped out - nothing shot out as "pumpguy" suggested it should. Does this mean the injection pump is pooched ? Or something else like the fuel solenoid not working preventing fuel from reaching the injection pump as Billrog suggested.....
I missed that part.. I should have known it had a solenoid.. Remove the solenoid.. older styles have a removable spring and plunger.. if it’s the older style, remove the guts a screw back in.. THAT will eliminate any electrical gremlins.. Check to see if fuel comes out of the bleeder now.. Be sure that the filter is full.. Hold the throttle to wide open and try to start the engine with the key..(is that better)
Thanks pumpG - can you point me to the solenoid - i've been hunting through my service manual and onLine parts manual but don't see where it is located. My case is circa 1980...so probably the older style....
Looking at the back of the pump, should be around the 6:00 position behind the bracket.. Single wire..
Take a pic of the bottom of the pump..
Ah....I see it. But holy crap its not easy to get to. Do you have to remove the pump injector first ?
No, it just looks that way.. 15/16 wrench from the side & use the box end to loosen it and use ur fingers from there.. Or a socket..
okay thanks - will give it a shot now
So at first I thought it was the small nut at the end until you mentioned 15/16" wrench. The problem I have is the bucket is down getting in the way of everything so getting a larger wrench to turn this solenoid is next to impossible. I might give myself some room if i remove that nut on the very bottom..,thoughts?
i can't even get a small crescent wrench to turn...i did hook up a 12v battery and when I completed the circuit to the solenoid I could hear a faint click - not sure how loud its suppose to sound. Unless I can remove that nut piece I'm kinda stuck - I did apply some pressure to loosen it (ready for fuel to dump) but it did not want to budge and I did not want to force lest I damage the pump
If u can hear it clicking faintly, it’s good.. The problem with that tho, it’s possible for the voltage to drop off while cranking.. that’s why it’s best to take the guts out. Can u get a deep wall socket on it.?? How about a shallow socket.?? A shallow might fit but u can only get a little of the ratchet in it.. just enough to turn the socket..
Have u taken the filter back down and refilled it.?? Do it.. U might have to do it a couple of times before we’re done..
Well, I could not get the solenoid out - maybe if I cut my 15/16 in half and shaved it down I could make it work. So i put everything back together and then with the fuel injectors still off i tried once more time to crank the engine - and low and behold some fuel came out of all 4 injectors! I then tighten loosely tightened the injectors up and cranked again. ANd then finally made all 4 snug and then it started right away. Nothing really but time passed and the temperature rose - other than that I have no idea why it would not fire up and spit out any fuel and then at the end no issue I feel bad if I wasted anybody's time but thanks for stepping me through this. I hope I never have to change out the solenoid! Cheers.....Ron
This is why I like to pick up pails of old wrenches at garage sales for cheap. Then you can cut and bend and weld them up however you need and you don't have to feel bad about it! You didn't waste anyone's time, I'm sure someone will come across this in the future and use this as part of their troubleshooting.
Ron, you didn't mention that you had the ignition ON while priming the injector pump? Without doing that, the fuel system won't prime. Did you turn off the fuel during filter change & remember to turn it on? Did you replace the in-line filter as well? Maybe it's now blocked? Restricting fuel delivery.
Hi Arlman - I did not have the ignition on while I was bleeding the lines from the pump. But obviously it was on when I cracked the injector nuts at the valves because I was cranking the engine trying to get the fuel to come out. I assume that the solenoid in the injector pump shuts the flow of fuel off when the key is no on ? And I did not turn off the fuel when I changed the filter but i will next time. I did replace the inline filter about 30 hours ago so I didn't feel I needed to replace it again - the only reason I replaced this filter was because it was leaking - but turned out actually to just to be the nut attached to the filter holder.
Ron: Your experience is almost identical to mine. Only difference is that after the most recent restart, mine ran for an hour or more plowing snow. Then when I throttled down to park in the barn, the engine stalled again and wouldn't restart. I'm beginning to think the fuel shut-off solenoid is the issue, not the fuel lines or the fuel itself. Thanks for your posts regarding this problem. Very helpful.
The solenoid on those pumps are questionable.. I’ve heard of people replacing them and all the “no-start” problems go away.. Me personally, I’ve never run into that problem & I’ve been doing this for over 35 years.. But if u do a search for CAV solenoid.. you’ll find 100’s of examples of people change the solenoid & problem solved..
Thanks so much for your thoughts. You've got at least 34 years and 11 months of experience that I don't have. Your recommendations are exactly what I need. I'll search on CAV solenoid. Thanks again.
I changed the solenoid, plowed snow for two days, then the backhoe died again. Shut down as if I had turned off the ignition switch. I gave it a day or so, then used the block heater and ether to assist with a cold temperature start. Engine fired up and has run perfectly since. Here's hoping you were right about changing the fuel shut-off solenoid. Thanks again for your guidance.
If it died again like you just posted you may another issue with a defective power supply to the solenoid. Could be the wire connections, the wire itself or the ignition switch. Next time it dies, leave the ignition switch on and check the power supply terminal on the solenoid with a test light or volt meter.
Thanks, Tinkerer, for this advice. I'll check as you recommend with a voltmeter. I intended to do this last time but the engine started and hasn't hesitated since. But it does need ether to start even after having the block heater plugged in overnight. This is a new development---in earlier days, it started on the first crank with no ether (morning temps are 5-10 degrees F below zero). This makes me wonder about the quantity or quality of fuel. Filters are all new, bulk tank has a new filter, fuel is 6 months old and not jelled. Any thoughts?
If your machine has a supply pump on it, THAT could be the problem.. if it’s faulty, it could allow the fuel to back bleed the fuel to the tank.. accounting for the long crank times..
Just a thought - Was the ambient outdoor temperature from when you were using and running change to significantly colder temperature when you went to use it again? Water condensation within the fuel system can and does freeze at some point and can cause starting and ignition issues particularly for owners of heavy equipment that live in condensing and freezing environments. Also, contributing to this could be ohms resistance in the start circuit, primary electrical source to the solenoid, switch or any closed circuit switch that has to work properly if the machine has a forward - reverser type transmission. HTH's ~ Orangeman
Many thanks, Thepumpguysc and Orangeman. Yes, Thepumpguysc, when you write "supply pump" I believe you are speaking of what some folks here call the "lift pump" or "slave pump". My 580 does have this pump. Come spring, I'll have a look at replacing it. And to Orangeman's note about cold air temps, the problem started in October when we had an abnormally warm autumn. Since then it has been abnormally cold. I'll keep your thought about ice in mind because this could/should be an easy fix. Thanks again to you both for your helpful suggestions.