OK, since I started another thread with different motive combined with just a list of salvage yards, I'll get the rest of the story out, now that I have some additional information. It's all about rims for a Case 621C wheeled loader. We have 3. One in use, two probably worthy of a trip across the scales, but that's another story. I don't know everything about equipment tires, so I'll need some help on this with proper terminology. The owner of the machines throws slang or colloquial terms about at random and that doesn't properly educate me. That's where you guys come in. The issue starts with the rims/wheels on the machine in use. I've always heard them called "split rim" or "3 piece" style. In this case, they are very rusty and corroded. In fact, it's bad enough the tire busters won't touch it. I understand that they would probably never seal once they were broken loose, and I know they are hazardous to service. So the solution we desire is to replace the rims with single piece rims. One of the machines has singles on it, but apparently the studs and nuts are different as well. I know about hub-centric vs stud-centric. The machine we want to retrofit has nuts with washer faces, and that tells me it is hub-centric, as opposed to the nuts with a bevel on the face. What we want are single piece hub-centric rims that will fit a Case 621C, tire size 20.5-25. Machine SN is JEE0123361 So, suggestions anyone? The tires on it are in poor shape, but our tire guys won't touch it unless we get another set of rims. Is scrounging the salvage yards the best way to come up with a set?
tony.i would think that new tubeless rims for that loader would be available from case or other tire -wheel dealers. will be expensive but what isn`t nowdays
petepilot, I'm sure we could get a brand new set. The dealer is about a mile and a half from our shop. The owner is just trying to save a few bucks. We have a sandblaster contractor on site most of the time so I imagine he was just wanting some cheaper rims and blast and paint them. Our tire dealer, same story. Very handy but costly.
Here is what I am looking at. Note the second picture. The holes are not beveled and a different nut is used on that style rim. I would think that rim would be a hub-centric style.
Well...gotta run for a bit. A Verneer grinder is frying breakers they tell me so I better get a look at it before we have another fire.
Hub centric for sure. Maybe sand blast one and see how it looks. If you knew the bolt circle and inner cut out might be able to see if the wheels fit other machines and find some used rims. I'm modifying some telehandler hub centric rims to fit on a grader. The rims are from OTR but found where they fit several models and brands of telehandlers using 14:00-24 tires.
I've never seen a single piece rim in 20.5-25 size. Not saying they were never made, just that it would be something very rare. In your photos I also don't see rim locks or even the split ring. Case did some things different on the older machines so using a rounded nut could have been possible back then. I haven't seen that on a rim that size and built after the eighties. I would also be leery of the tires wanting to spin on the rim in a hard pull like digging into a bank. I can't image the force it would take to lift the bead over a rim ledge as well.
Same here. That rim assembly would generally be a 3 or 4-piece arrangement depending on whether it was equipped with a driver key to prevent the tyre walking on the rim. It could potentially even be a 5-piece if it had a loose flange on the inside as well as the outside, but that's not so common in the size you are talking about. See below, this ia a 4-piece setup. #1 is the lock ring, #2 the loose flange, #3 the driver key, and #4 the rim base.
Popeye would need his spinach, that's for sure.
So what I am hearing is that it's unlikely that I'll find a set of single rims in that size. If they are rare, I probably won't be able to find them. These rims are dangerous, I agree, and the likely solution is to simply find a replacement set in better condition. That about sum it up?
Pretty much. Wherever you go for new rims/rim parts they are not going to be cheap. There are probably only a dozen or so rim manufacturers in the world and all of them sell via tyre dealers and the like, or supply direct to OEMs. Do you have a Parts Manual for the loader, or can you somehow track down the Part Number for the OEM Case rim assembly.? Try putting that P/N in Machinery Trader's Parts Section and see what it throws up.
This popped up on eBay after a search. I don't know whether C & D rims are interchangeable. https://www.ebay.com/itm/124331689929?hash=item1cf2bf07c9:g:DfQAAOSw2M9fWSiu
Nige, as of yet I do not have a PN to chase. We lost a lot of our library when our CPA retired. I don't know if they were just left in his office, or moved into some of our vast warehouse system (code for "lost"). As far as d vs c, I couldn't say. That means of course that I'll have to track down both PN's. Fortunately, my dealer is a pretty helpful guy and I think I can get some help on that, even though he will know I'm not buying a new set from him. The rims in that auction, would those be considered the lock ring style 3 piece?
I'll be out of contact most of today and tomorrow. NASCAR event in FW, but will have phone. And laptop at hotel. So if anyone comments, I'll respond as I can.
The rims might be the same as the ones Nige found. They would have to be cleaned up to see exactly what they are.
Yes. I don't see a driver pocket in either the rim base or the flange, or any sign of a driver to be honest. I think they could be too far gone to clean up. The problem is that corrosion starts in the bottom of the lock ring groove. Once it gets established a crack starts that once it travels all the way round the rim in the bottom of the groove will result in about 1-2" of the end of the rim base being ejected at high speed along with the lock ring, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. I may have some photos somewhere of the aftermath of a similar incident.
The rims are in bad shape, I just thought cleaning them up would help to determine what type they are.
Sorry, didn't realize that was what you were driving at.
They look like they could be 3 piece rims but hard to tell with all the rust. Are the loaders used for corral cleaning? It is the worst for corrosion. Have heard of track loaders going through an undercarriage in a year. Some cleaners switched to wheel loaders because tires are cheaper but if the rims get ruined I don't know if it's any cheaper. Other cleaners use excavators so they can sit in 1 place and not drive in the manure.
Corral cleaning? No, but not too far off. They run in a composting plant. And when it rains, the mud and water that collects probably has similar properties. It's a lack of maintenance to a degree. Even if they run in it all day, they should be cleaned at end of shift. I can't convince them to stop and blow the grinders and screens down yet, despite the fire on the Diamond Z grinder. But I think I'm making progress. Compost if full of organic matter and all the microbes breaking it down. I know there has been one load of chicken manure brought it, because the bottom belly belt broke and I had to repair it. I don't know if it was wet and dripping from weather or because that's how it was loaded. But that trailer had been used for manure before and was corroded pretty heavily. Nasty job. On the other hand, besides more fingers, some of the equipment I know came from a salt mine, and it shows. We have one near here, and the way it treats equipment is sort of funny. As long as you take a machine down in the mine and leave it, it won't corrode (much at all) but as soon as you bring it back to the surface, with the normal humidity levels, it rusts apart quickly. For all I know, the machine I'm hunting rims for came from there. I don't know the history. I may pick the best of what I have and see if I can get the tire guys to at least break it down for me to see if it can be cleaned up. Worth a try I guess. Wouldn't there be a PN stamped in it? Or likely rusted over...
You’re more likely to get one from your local friendly Case dealer so long as you’re in his good books.
I would think there should be a part number stamped on the rim. The rims I got have the part number and I assume date stamped on them below the guard for the valve stem. I wonder if powder coating or some other type of coating on the rims would help to limit corrosion?
The tire people should be able to help you on what the rim is. They have had sources for me in the past. I don't see why they wouldn't break it down for an assessment and you probably want the keep the tire anyway. When I look at your photos, it looks almost like a truck rim locking ring. Generally, on equipment wheels, the outside bead ring pushes over the top of most of the lock ring making so that it is impossible to move out of the recess in the wheel. You only see a portion of those rings until the bead ring is forced bach towards the center of the wheel. As to the ring lock, I went back through some photos of smaller loaders and below a certain size it appears they aren't used. Below is a photo of a ring lock on an artic truck in the top left corner. Also notice that the bead ring contacts the back of the lock ring. What you can't see is the portion of the lock ring that is under the bead ring.
After speaking at length with the owner, it boils down to this: I need 4 stock 3 rims for a Case 621C. We have two, and yes they came from a salt mine. There is no salvaging them according to two different tire guys. They are both in about the same shape. If it were my call, I'd park both of them (they are, pretty much) because of the rust. But the tire guys say even if we break them down to clean up, the pitting is so bad there is no way the seal ring is going to hold, so the owner just want to replace them. That's one reason I started that other thread about salvage yards. As many Cases as there are running around, surely I ought to be able to locate 4 rims. Actually, I might buy 8 and be done with it. I really have a distrust of any of the machines I've worked on that came from the salt mines anywhere. It attacks everything, and some of the structural members are under a huge load. Much of it you can't see until it fails. So far, we have not had an accident because of it, but it's a wonder. None of the rims presently on the machines have a ring lock. Just ordinary 3 piece rims. I'm not really clear on the stud centric vs hub centric though. The owner refers to them as Budd wheels and Pilot wheels. I would think the Pilot wheels are what I'm calling stud centric, with the wheel studs taking the load and centering the rim, and the Budd wheels I'm calling hub centric. Interchangeable? I don't know. I'd think that if it was a stud centric (Pilot) wheel, the studs would have a non-threaded section right at the hub for the rim to ride on instead of riding on the threads. Hub centric rims would still likely have that, but the style of nut would be different. I'm still not sure I'm completely clear on it.
I got confused trying to figure out what type of wheels I had too but got it figured out. Hub centric the holes in the wheels are flat, stud centric the holes in the wheel are tapered to accept tapered lug nuts. Hub centric use flange nuts or bolts to hold them on and stud centric use tapered nuts. Looking online I found a lot of confusion and different names used that weren't always correct. Forget about terms used for semi trucks. It just confuses things more although trucks can use hub centric or stud centric wheels. Sometimes wheel types can be changed/converted from one to the other (on a specific vehicle) but the holes in the wheels tell what type they are.
That’s part of the communication issue with the owner. Although very knowledgeable about equipment, I believe he’s thinking in truck tire terms. He was not at all familiar with the wheel locks. Guess he just hasn’t come across any yet. I got a reply from AMS wanting to know what size tires I’m running so maybe they can help get this cleared up. Meanwhile my Verneer tech didn’t show up, my Bandit grinder won’t start (solenoid I believe), and I’m trying to troubleshoot a Kobelco 160 with a traction motor issue and a code pointing to a proportioning valve that I can’t find. Is this Monday?
A day or two back I suggested that we get our tire guy to break down a couple of the wheels and tires on one of these loaders. I wanted to get our nearly on staff portable sand blast guy to give them a good cleaning and really look at the seal areas on them. Today, the owner had a great idea! Let's get a couple of them sandblasted and have a look. So we'll see what comes of that. Meanwhile, one of the salvage yards emailed me a quote on a set of 4. He said they list for $2238.08 ea and he could only let them go for $1100 + freight. I think our local dealer told us somewhere around $1200 each. I took a pass on those. This place was in NY.
Those look like 3 piece wheels I have never seen one apart on a Case but I would guess they have a o-ring seal between the flange and the wheel. You might check with the tire people and see if they want to dismount the tires on the machine. If they want the wheel and all let the air out before you take them off. Bob
The guys we use will come and we will lift the front (assuming this particular machine runs. I don't know) and block it up, chock the rears and they will dismount the assembly then break it down. If it doesn't run, they will handle jacking it up and blocking, etc. I've watched them enough to know how, but I'm physically unable to do that heavy work any more. As far as I can tell, I agree that they probably are 3 piece plus the seal ring. I imagine I will be there, unless I am tied elsewhere. Or we could pull them ahead of time. We have a guy who stays pretty busy moving tires around. We have a warehouse....make that two, full of misc tires and wheels. Just none for these Case loaders. He stays busy keeping up and getting the leakers fixed on all the smaller stuff and the ag equipment. We have a lot of wheeled vehicles and trailers and trucks. He does not mount/dismount but takes care of swapping. We don't have a balancing setup anyway.
I think it might be easier taking the tires off with the wheels on the machine. Everything is held solid that way and won't move around.
True, Dave...I'll leave it up to them. They may like the idea. I'll grab a pic or two.
There's some video's of a guy from a tire shop changing tires on loaders and graders, etc. leaving the wheels on the machines.
I stopped at a machine today and took better photos of the ring lock.
This shows how all the bits go together. About the same size at the 20.5x25 fitted to the 621C also.
That is a 3 piece wheel and not really a ring lock but a driver that keeps the bead seal / flange from moving and cutting o-ring. On a 5 piece wheel the bead flange and the rim are 2 pieces. Bob