Hello, I'm back again looking for some advice on my CAT 226B, serial number MJH08353 with the 3024C Turbo engine. The machine was parked in my garage for most of the winter (no engine oil leaks). I recently moved it out of my garage and parked it in the back yard. A few days after moving it, I went in the back yard and there was several quarts of engine oil under the machine. I believe the oil is coming from the rear main/rear crankshaft oil seal, as there are no visible leaks above the oil pan (see pictures). I'm planning on pulling the motor out and I was hoping to get some advice on the process. Questions: - Any basic tips/advice for engine removal (special tools etc.)? - I believe this is the correct CAT part for the rear seal, 154-0178: Flanged Oil Seal , can anyone confirm? - If it is the rear main seal, I've seen videos of people using a special seal driver, do you know what one I need? Thank you in advance!
Lookd like the engine mounts gave it up the oil pans looks to be sitting on the frame
That's something I didn't consider so thanks for taking the time to respond. I went out and took more pictures (see attached). The pan appears to have clearance everywhere except for maybe in the front left. Any idea on how much clearance I should have up front? Do you know if it's common for the engine mounts to fail? And as far as the engine mounts go, I can see three, do you know if there are any others I'm not seeing?
If the pan did touch while running, the gasket above must be compromised, as well as the pan being checked for thickness. Simon C
Thank you for taking time to respond, much appreciated.
A small quantity of oil on a hard flat surface can look like gallons. Did you check if there was any oil showing on the dipstick.? Oil pan drain valve/drain plug (I see two) not leaking.? Does that engine have a fumes disposal setup connected to the valve cover.? A blockage in that could easily cause internal pressure inside the engine leading to a load of oil on the floor. Attached are the details of the engine mounts. I tend to agree with Tyler & Simon. Unless you check very carefully that the engine oil pan is not compromised and thus rule it out, or not as the case may be, I wouldn't think that a failed crankshaft seal could dump that much oil so quickly - if indeed your comment about there being "quarts" of oil on the ground is actually true. To remove the oil pan would require the engine to be removed AFAIK. Regarding the engine R&I (if it gets to that point) see the attached. How one would go about removing the engine would depend a lot of what lifting equipment was available.
Yes thinking about it again. One cup of oil on a cocrete floor will make a 4 foot circle easily. Need to wash off with brakleen and see if it shows where the leak is. Simon C
My 2006 CAT 242B with the same 3024C turbo engine has likely less than 1" of clearance between the bottom of the oil pan and the steel frame plate. It is so tight that I can't get my fingers under the oil pan. Have you tipped the cab and looked back at the engine to see if you can find evidence of the suspected leak? An inspection camera might be a helpful tool for this.
Thank Nige. I did not know that there is a lower oil plug on this engine. AustinC - Below is the oil pan diagram that Nige provided. Now that you know where the lower drain plug on this engine is located, it will be worthwhile to try to put a wrench onto the plug to ensure that it is tight and not the source of your leak. I also agree with Simon's suggestion of cleaning up the oil leak and trying to identify the source of the leak. How much oil are you actually missing from the crankcase?
Man I love this community, thank you all so much! When I get home later today I will follow-up with answers to your questions.
Okay, just got home and I'm back with answers to your questions. I'm not sure how to respond with the quotes like you guys are doing above so your questions are in bold and my response is below each one. Did you check if there was any oil showing on the dipstick? - Yes, it’s dry. There is no oil showing on the dipstick. Oil pan drain valve/drain plug (I see two) not leaking? - The drain valve doesn’t seem to be leaking (picture 9708). I don’t have a visual on the drain plug. I attached a picture of the underside of the machine (picture 9710) and I don't see a way to access it. Maybe I just need to try to get a wrench under the oil pan? Does that engine have a fumes disposal setup connected to the valve cover? - I believe this is what you’re referring to (see attached picture 9707)? This might be obvious but is there a way to check if it's clogged? Have you tipped the cab and looked back at the engine to see if you can find evidence of the suspected leak? - I haven’t yet but that’s the next step. How much oil are you actually missing from the crankcase? - There is no oil showing on the dipstick but when I open the drain valve, I get a small amount of oil coming out. I attached a picture (picture 9709) of that as well so you get an idea of how much oil is left in the pan. As far as next steps, I will see if I can get a wrench on the drain plug and check to make sure it's tight. My next move will be to lift the cab as suggested by ThreeCW to get a better view of things. Nige, thank you for those attachments regarding the engine removal. I have a 2 ton Engine/Shop Crane that I plan to use to pull the motor if it comes down to it.
Did you say NO oil on dipstick, yikes. Better put some in before you go any further. Do like Simon says, brake clean the snot out of it, fill with oil, run until warm, check with mirror, or bore scope camera
If he cleans it well as suggested by @Simon C and puts fresh oil in, considering that the previous quantity of oil landed on the floor with the engine stopped, he might not even have to start it to find where the oil is coming from. just a thought.
I figured out how to do the quotes so I'll use that from now on when appropriate. Yes, it's dry so I will make sure to add more oil. I will also try and get my hands on a camera. I agree, I need to clean it up better first. Once I do that I'll add more oil with out starting it to see if I can identify where it's coming from. I'm leaving out of town today but I will be back on Monday. As soon as I have more information I will follow up on what I find. Does anyone know what size the oil drain bolt is on the bottom of the pan?
Head size should be 19mm or 3/4".
I think your photo may hold a clue, but first a question. How low has the ambient temperature been in your neck of the woods lately.? The reason I ask is that there was a member in Canada who experienced a frozen-up fumes disposal system a couple of days ago, albeit on a machine very different to yours. Condensation from a long lay-up (a bit like your OP) had frozen up inside the fumes disposal and pressurized the engine crankcase. In his case it blew the oil up the exhaust stack. Read more HERE Does the hose in your photo go to the top of the engine valve cover and attach to #21 in the illustration below.? If it does then maybe you need to remove #21 (4 bolts) and take a look at the condition of the "sponge" baffle #2.
We removed the cover (#21) on our (since sold unit) and indeed found the screen was very dirty & 'clogged'. This was on an ASV with the Perkins 404 (I believe basically the same engine)
Indeed a perkins 404 rebuilt many in high school to current day makes moneys ha
This is the main reason we sold ours…it was running good; but got really nervous about long term ownership.
Ive come to find with them they will easily run 5 or 6000 hours if basic maintanince is done all that ive been in to always seemed to have ran with out the oily stuff. Seems the rap they get is worse then they are
Interesting info, thanks. I know on ours I did a serial number breakdown search, and country of origin was USA (which research on HEF) seemed to indicate a better build than some other countries of origin. It did seem to slobber a bit out the exhaust and I believe the previous owner may not have changed oil enough. I also wonder if it was 'putted' around at too low of rpm....It was a low hour (~1500) acreage machine in really nice original condition; and did seem quite a smooth runner. It was 'cold blooded' and needed glow-plugs to start. I believe this was a normal characteristic??
Lots of motors built would not start without the glow plugs. Simon C
Sorry for the slow response but I'm back with some updates. Thank you, I checked and it's tight. The temps around the time this occurred were roughly 30-65 degrees Fahrenheit. The hose in the photo goes to my oil pan drain valve. I just went out and checked and I do see the hose you're refereeing to here, it sits behind the engine oil filter. Would I need to pull the valve cover to check/clean that screen? It appears so based on this image but I'm not sure. At this point, I've checked that the drain plug is tight, lifted the cab and I'm working on getting the machine as clean as possible to figure out where the oil is coming from. I do think that @Tyler d4c is onto something about the engine mounts giving up and the oil pan sitting on the frame. It looks like the bottom of the pan is touching on the left side. Ill go out shortly and get a picture of what I'm looking at. Thanks again to all of you who are helping me work through this.
Quoting myself here for reference of these pictures. It appears to be touching here. When I try to stick this thin ruler under the pan it won't go so it seems like it's touching. Unless anyone has more input/advice, I'm thinking Ill move forward with pulling the engine to inspect the mounts, bushings and oil pan. As always, thank you for the help!
From your photos that certainly appears to be the case. Why not try dumping a quart or so of oil into the engine and observe that particular area.? If the pan is worn through at that spot it shouldn't take long for it to start weeping out.
That's a good thought, Ill do that first. I also ordered a borescope camera to see if I can get a better view of that area. I'll follow up within a day or two with updates. Thank you!
TBH if all you want to do is confirm a leak you could pour a quart of diesel into the engine. because let's face it if it is leaking then the engine is coming out anyway.
I made some progress. After doing a more thorough cleaning, it became clear the leak was coming from the oil pan. I ended up pulling the engine yesterday. Once I removed the air cleaner, I discovered that the left side motor mount wasn’t bolted to the frame at all.... literally zero bolts holding it in place. I’ve owned this machine for about three years, and the engine has never been pulled during that time. Judging by the condition of the threads on the mount, those bolts have likely been missing for quite a while. Honestly, I’m surprised the oil pan didn’t crack sooner. When I separated the engine from the hydraulic pump, my first thought was that getting everything lined back up for reinstallation is probably going to be a challenge. Any tips or tricks to make reinstalling the engine onto the pump go more smoothly?
You may want to replace the coupling between the engine and the hydraulic pump. If I recall correctly, the coupler flange is plastic or nylon and I have read a lot of posts where people highly recommend to replace it when you pull an engine. Even more reason in your case where your engine has been misaligned due the failed motor mount. I have no personal experience with this part but others may jump in to offer their advice. Please post a few more photos too, as it would help to document your repair.
That's helpful to know thank you! Anyone else have experience with this coupling? I'm trying to find the part number for it now... I will take some photos and upload them here in a bit to help document. Thanks again!
They are known to fail so if you are in there it would be a good idea to fit a new plastic disc, which acts as a fuse. The rest of the coupling is steel and should be fine. Experience says those couplings don’t like being messed with, as would happen in an engine R&I, and can often fail shortly afterwards. Figures of less than 1 hour before failure are being bandied about. See this link. I think the Part Number of the “flange” will be correct for your machine but you should check yourself before ordering parts based on your machine Serial Number. HeavyEquipmentForums
Using your serial number, I had a look at parts.cat.com and came up with the Nylon Flange part number 141-7562 for your skid steer. Parts photo and diagram shown below. You will want to check with your local CAT dealer to confirm this part number. I have always wondered about Canadian vs. US pricing. What does this part sell for from your local CAT dealer? Further to the CAT SEPD0712.pdf document that Nige referred to in his link above, they had a few points regarding the Nylon Flange that are worth considering. Note that this document does not cover your 226B, and you may want to obtain the correct version before completing your repair. A few points of interest in this document are: Orientation of the Nylon Flange Incorrect orientation of the nylon flange results in reduced engagement of the coupling hub with the splines of the nylon flange. The Caterpillar part number is embossed on the surface of the nylon flange. The surface with the part number should face the front of the machine. See Illustration 7. Condition of the Nylon Flange Expansion of the nylon flange makes installation of the flange more difficult. The nylon flange is susceptible to expansion due to moisture absorption. A new nylon flange should not be removed from the sealed bag until installation. 3CW Comment - who would have thought that nylon would absorb water ??
Thanks Nige, I will take a look. This is very helpful! I'm looking online at my local CAT dealer and they want $250 USD for the flange. Here are some photos of the engine removal. I've cleaned everything up after these photos were taken. I can only load 4 photos at one time so I will follow-up with more after this post. The hardest part was reaching the two bolts that attach the pump to the engine. I ended up modifying an old wrench to remove the bolts from the pump.
Here are some additional photos. Thanks again for all of the help so far. I will call CAT here shortly to confirm part numbers. So far, I'm planning on ordering a new oil pan, oil pan gasket and the nylon flange.
It’s a steel pan, correct.? Investigate the possibility of having it repaired by welding, because you may be quite shocked at the price of a new one. Also maybe investigate if it’s possible to find a used oil pan from a breaker.
You might want to consider renewing the fuel lines too now that you have the engine removed and everything is accessible. I’m assuming that your 226B is about 20 years old. How many hours are on it?
Nige you're spot on. I'm currently in shock... They want $1,053 USD for the oil pan. The old part number is 154-1945 and has been updated to 589-7378. Any idea where I can find a used oil pan? I did a quick search on Ebay but didn't find anything. Maybe I need different search terms. I'm 90% sure it's a steel pan, I'm going out to check in a few minutes. I'm really hoping I can repair it based on the price for a new one. That's a good thought. Once I get the current parts purchased and see how the wallet is looking, I'll see if I can swing some fuel lines as well. My hour meter says just over 3,000 but I don't believe it based on the condition of the machine when I originally purchased it.
You need to search a far wider net than eBay. That engine is a re-badged Perkins IIRC. Not sure off the top of my head which model. Maybe you can find a Perkins Part Number for the pan although TBH my first suggestion would be haul it to a local welding shop and ask them if they can repair it. JB Weld might be another cheaper alternative although it would not be my first choice.
Phone up weavers compact tractor in pa theyll have one i use to get blocks and lots of other parts off then for these l844t engines
If the drain plug is in the right spot
His oil pan has 2 drains, one underneath and the other on the side. The one underneath shown in your photo is inaccessible in the Cat installation. See the attachment in Post #6 on page 1.
While you have the engine out, you may want to service the screen on the engine mounted mechanical fuel pump (since is will be really easy to access now). Here is a link to a thread. Starting on post 20 of this thread, I document the cleaning of the basket filter that is part of the fuel pump ... if your 226B fuel pump is like my 242B fuel pump. HeavyEquipmentForums If you have a bunch of debris in the basket filter, you might also want to consider cleaning out your ~20 year old fuel tank, which should be "relatively" easy with the engine removed. Edit: Or you may want to proactively replace your fuel pump if the budget allows since they are not an expensive item. I seem to recall that I had to replace mine a year or two after cleaning the basket filter.
If you get the oil pan welded, it is a very good idea to put the plugs back in and then fill it above the weld location with gasoline to check for leaks. I once converted a fleet of a dozen trucks to have drains in the transmission oil pan. Welder put the 1/8 inch pipe coupling on the pans and I installed them. Guess what? When I tested with all the plugs in the gas was leaking right through. Welder repaired and still leaking with gas again, at which point he swore at me a few words and I directed him to a varsol tank where I performed the test in front of him. He then told me the pan doesn't hold gas it holds oil. I replied that transmission oil at 230F will leak right through, so asked him if he wanted me to weld it or did he want to try for 3rd time. He grabbed it out of my hand and came back 30 minutes later and did not leak any more. He was doing flawless work after that edumacation! Welded is no problem as long as it holds gasoline. Belzona on the outside would not hurt but only after the gasoline test has been done. Just my opinion. Simon C
I would probably save the money from the pan replacement and instead direct that money into the coupling as stated, and if it has the 3000 or more hours on it that was stated I would be looking at main and rod bearings to limp that thing to the 5000-6000 hr mark. Only you would know how low the oil went in the unit, and whether or not the bearings were damaged at all. Easy while pan is off to at least have a look. Just a thought to keep in mind along with the transfer pump repair as was posted by ThreeCW. Simon C
The “to do” list is getting longer.
Going back to the OP the oil landed on the floor where the machine was parked. AFAIK there was no trail of oil leading to the place where it was stopped. Speaking under correction here.
I am only making a suggestion as quite a few have had to take back out a second time on this forum to do what could of been looked at. The pan is coming off, what owner decides to do will be his choice. I could tell an hours worth of stories of pans I took off and all was perfectly good till we pulled a bearing off. Dot your I's and Cross your Tees. Simon C
At least pull a rod cap or 4.
Rods the top half will tell all and the bottom of a main might tell some also. Simon C
Sorry for the slow responses, I'm working on this when I have free time. I just submitted my order for the flange. Thanks for your help/input on this! Yes, the engine is a 3024C. I'm currently in the process of trying to find someone that can make sure it's water tight. I have a welder and can weld, just not sure if I can get it water tight. Thank you, I will make sure to go through this while the engine is out. This is correct. I always check my oil before starting the machine and it was full before starting it. I let the machine warm up, moved it to the back yard and parked it. A few days later the oil had leaked out. I'm thinking the pan was on the verge of giving up and the short drive from the garage to the back yard, it finally gave out. Thank you. Is the l844t the same as the Perkins 3024C? As always, thank you for the input.
Yes l844t 3024c and perkins 404- theres a few dash options that are the same (the same enough you can swap about) Ive put newholland tractor engine blocks in cat skid loaders.
Back again with some updates. Thanks for the information here. I pulled the fuel pump and cleaned it out. It wasn't too dirty so I feel good about the condition of the fuel tank. I was having a hard time finding a shop to weld the pan so I gave it go myself. I ended up MIG welding it and doing two separate coats of JB Weld on the outside of the pan, sanding and cleaning between each coat. I let the pan sit overnight with gasoline in it and it's not leaking so that's a win. My new oil pan gasket and nylon flange should arrive early next week. I do have a question about installing the oil pan. Should I apply RTV before installing the gasket? I'm thinking about using Permatex ultra black. Thank you!
It should be whatever the manual recommends. Unfortunately I don’t have access to it at the moment. From memory I don’t recall any bonding agent being recommended but I could be wrong. Some people put a thin smear of grease on the pan flange to keep the gasket from moving while the pan is being installed.
It depends on the type of gasket, but some will kick out with some kinds of silicone if there is too much. On paper style gaskets, I usually use High Temperature Red and put little dots every 3/16 to 1/4 inch all the way down the gasket and around every hole. Then I use my finger to join all those dots into a skinny line. I let it dry about 20 minutes and put it up against a brakleened surface and have not had any leak that way. I don't want big squish outs of silicone that could beak off and plug the oil suction screen. I some times put a skinny line the same way on the pan itself to prevents scratches that lots of them have from leaking through. Glad your weld job held gas. Simon C
If it’s a decent gasket, please do not use anything. I never understood people’s impulse to coat everything with gasket maker, with a gasket. Now Indian Head Gasket sealer, that I’m on board with. Lol
Thank you for the input. I opted for no RTV. I installed the oil pan/gasket last night and added oil to test and as of this morning there are no leaks. I'm going to attempt to install the motor tomorrow. I'll follow-up on how that goes.
Not sure of the design of the pan, but if the front cover bolts to the block with the pan covering the bottom side of both there are joints that the pan goes over that will leak without silicone for the joint is my experience. Have not seen the exact bottom design but most engine blocks require silicone at the joints. Simon C
I’m happy to report that I got the motor in. Aligning the hydraulic pump wasn’t fun but it is what it is. I’m now in the process of trying to burp air out of the coolant. At idle, the engine isn’t getting warm enough to open the thermostat. I’m assuming I’ll need to drive it around to get it warm enough for the thermostat to open. Anyways, I wanted to follow up and thank everyone for the input/advice. This group has always treated me very well.
I’m surprised, usually those engines have no problem heating up. Be careful running around with air in the system. Might create some pressures.
I was surprised as well. When I was idling it, the temp was about 60°F outside but I didn't think that would make much of a difference. I also thought that maybe my thermostat was stuck open but the coolant hoses after the thermostat never got warm the like the one leading into the thermostat. Using the temp gun, the thermostat housing never when above 175°F so maybe I have a 180°F (or more) thermostat.
You have an 82 DegC temperature regulator if it is original specification.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to try and get the engine temp up tonight to see if I can get the thermostat to open.
82 C = 180 F You might need to block of a portion of the radiator with cardboard to get the temperature up.
How do you know you have trapped air in the coolant?
I ran the machine yesterday (not just idle) and couldn't get the temp above 165°F. I wonder if my thermostat is stuck open? Good point, I didn't think of that. Based on my experience with draining coolant from other equipment/vehicles, 100% of the time I've had to burp out the air in the system after refilling. I don't know how much coolant remains in the engine after draining but when I reinstalled the motor I poured just over 2 gallons in and the radiator was full. From my understanding this engine/cooling system requires 2.8 gallons so in theory, I need to add about a half gallon more. I'm not sure if the overflow tank is included in the 2.8 gallon total. With that said, maybe I'm missing something... Maybe this machine self bleeds any air in the system?
If the hose from the temperature regulator housing to the radiator is not getting hot then it would appear the regulator cannot be stuck open. Under the conditions you describe it would be perfectly possible for it to be stuck CLOSED. Don't bet the farm on what the maintenance manual says. a) the number could be wrong and b) the numbers are only ever approximate. In the case of the cooling system you will never get all the old coolant out unless the engine is completely disassembled and the cylinder block is drained.
Generally, on every engine rebuild or replacement on anything I do, when I start it, I try and get oil pressure up, before it kicks off. I also run it with the radiator cap off, if it has one and wait for the burp and verify coolant is moving. With the heater on, if it has one.
Good points, thank you for brining these up. Thanks for the input. I follow these same steps. So far I haven't been able to get it to warm up past 170°F. I ordered a new thermostat and it should be arriving today. I'm planning on installing it today or tomorrow so Ill follow up on how that goes.
Are you sure that the coolant temperature sensor is actually submerged in liquid.? Might be worth a check.
Sorry for the slow responses. I've been busy. I did get the machine up to temp and was successful getting the air out of the cooling system. The machine is running great. Thank you all for your help with this project. I couldn't have done it with out this group.