Good afternoon, first time ever posting, so thank you! I am having an issue with my skid steer, so looking for a little advice before I start replacing parts. CAT, 246B Tire skid steer. 2005 model I do believe. I started running my skid steer in the morning. Started right up like always. Shut it down to get out and do some shoveling. Got back into it and it would not start. Not only would it not start, all the cab power was out. No lights, nothing, everything totally dead. Immediately I thought that a battery cable might have come off the terminal or something similar as I had absolutely no power. Opened the back and started checking connections. The Battery connections to the battery posts were solid and looked good. Pulled on the 2/0 cable that goes from the positive of the battery post up to the starter post. Cable immediately came off the post at the starter and hit something to ground and shorted briefly. This very much surprised me, as I certainly was not expecting that. (good lesson to expect if you pull on something, it might actually be loose) The 2/0, ½ round crimp connector had broken in half at the starter post. I figured that for sure this must be the issue as the positive cable from the battery, goes up to the starter post, and then parallels up to the 105 amp circuit breaker that is on the side machine. This starter post connection was not solid and it probably dropped power to the entire machine since the starter post is the parallel point it appears. For the heck of it, I wedged and bolted the half terminal connector back into the starter post (It had a washer and a hex nut so I could get it somewhat tight) . I got back into the machine, and turned on the key… It was completely dead, but after about 15 seconds of waiting with the key on, a relay must have closed, and suddenly I had cab had power again. After the power was restored, and this is the weird part, I tried to turn the skid steer over to start it. Immediately, once trying to turn the key over to start, the machine lost all power again. Everything was dead in the cab. From this, I figured I needed to replace the 2/0 cable from the battery to the starter. Today, I replaced the bad 2/0 cable. Went into the cab, and the lights came on, and I figured I had it. Went to turn the key over to start, and the machine lost all power once again. Stopped what I was doing, and did some quick voltage checks. Had good voltage at the starter and had good voltage on both sides of the 105amp main fuse. I went back into the cab, turned the key on, and after 15 seconds or so, again, the cab power came back on. Lights worked, heater blower worked, everything seemed to power up. However, when trying to start the machine again, when turning it over to start, all power drops back out. My thought is that maybe the starter is bad, and shorted, and it is dropping power to the machine? What I do not understand is what is going on if it is shorting out at the starter? One would think that it would blow some sort of fuse and not reset. What circuit is activating again once you wait 15 seconds or so, and will deliver power back to the cab? Is this some sort of over current sensing relay that latches in and then unlatches? I am not sure where to go from here, except start looking into the starter, and maybe pulling it out and bench testing it. Any advice to help point in the right direction would be great. Also, the 105-circuit breaker, it presents a trip button you that you can push it in and out. How do you know when it is tripped? Does it pop out further than where it resided currently? (It appears that when its normal, it sits slighly proud and can be pushed in and out). Thanks so much, and sorry for the long post.. Felt like I needed to be thorough after reading some of the other post when trying to do some research on my particular issue.
Unfortunately that means nothing. Need a Serial Number to locate technical information. How good are you with electrics.? Would an electrical schematic assist you in troubleshooting.?
LOL, Oh and I thought I was being so thorough. Serial number PAT00692 Engine Model 3044C Engine Serial Number CJSO3286 Engine Arrangement 210-6840 Yes, I it would be great to see a electrical Schematic. (Not saying however I am good )
Check your message inbox.
Thank you good sir
Seeing as how that machine is nearing 2 decades old, and, based on your symptoms, I'd start by cleaning the ground lug and mount at the other end of the battery ground wire (I cannot see where that one goes). Then, remove and clean both of these ground straps.
Ok, thank you, I will find those points on all the grounds and clean. Appreciate the advice.
There is a ground cable that goes I believe to the bottom of the starter. Have seen broken before. Simon C
Take a look on the schamtic I sent you. All the grounds are shown on it along with hyperlinks so if you click it takes you to the location on a view of the machine. There must be close to a dozen grounds all told.
Yes sir, ground/negative from the battery runs directly to the starter, similar to the positive. Appears that all roads go through the starter first. (Positive and negative). Thanks for the post.
Forget how many there are on the unit sometimes. Sometimes I look for all the obvious ground cables, but missing just one can mean no function. Just worth mentioning that have seen at least 3 of the Caterpillar B series skidsteers that have the connection burn't off internally at the lead connector at the battery that the cable is connected to. It is a weakness on the units that I have replaced with solid copper crimp on connector on 2 units. Make sure to voltage drop test both the positive and negative on the battery as they love to fool people. Check all the other grounds that Nige posted as who knows which one is bad. Simon C
Yes, sir the schematic was fantastic! Thank you so much. Really intimidating when you really don't know what you are looking at. I lifted the cab and found the ground strap from the one of the schematics, its looks to be in very good shape. (Photo). I have decided to pull the starter, and see if it has shorted out. I will put it on the bench, and see if the solenoid is good. More to come soon!
For the few seconds it will take I would pull both of those connections apart, remove the cables, clean all the terminals and reassemble. At least if you have physically done that you KNOW it's right, not just think it is.
On it!
As to the photos that heymccall posted of the ground straps I just fixed one last weekend on a car that the fellow had cleaned up the ends nice and shiny, but the inside of one end was as green as could be. Built another cable and installed and all the voltage drop was gone. Just wanted to mention as have seen overlooked before. Agree with the physical check as have done to find one wire broken from ringlet. Not sure how to remove my double post by accident. Simon C
Yikes that is spooky... So, the ringlet terminals got cleaned, (External) and the connection to the machine was cleaned, (external) but the connection internally from the conductor (ground wire) to the terminal (internally) was corroded? You won't catch that visually, need to ohm it out with a meter. Thanks for the advice. I am going to learn a lot. You could really start going down the rabbit hole and never find the issues you are looking for with that scenario. Nige is absolutely correct, just do all the testing at each point and then move on.
It will pass an Ohm meter test when checking these. but if you put both your meter leads on the same cable ( one on each end ) and try to start and hold the key switch there it will show heavy voltage on your meter like 0.4Volts up to full battery voltage depending on how bad internally. Simon C
Star washers are your friend here. Not lock washers.
Good Evening, I wanted to take a moment to update this incredible community that has been assisting me with my skid steer. Thanks to all of your guidance and support, I am happy to share that it is up and running again! I sincerely appreciate the valuable input from everyone, including the advice on grounding and the electrical schematic provided by Nige. Ultimately, I should have focused on Simon C's recommendation from the start—his assessment was spot on. For those interested, the troubleshooting process involved removing the starter—a real pain due to the third nut positioned in a rather inconvenient location next to the engine block that was stuck and only could be removed with a swivel socket and two long extension. . After some persistence, I successfully removed it and tested the starter on the bench, where it performed flawlessly. Once I saw that, I totally headed toward the main ground cable connecting the battery to the starter post as Simon had suggested. Although it initially tested at .3 ohms with a meter, this measurement proved misleading. Today, I had NAPA build two new cables, installed them, and reassembled everything. The skid steer started instantly. Attached is a photo of the faulty ground cable—an unassuming yet troublesome bugger that cost me a about 10 hours total. Once again, I am deeply grateful for the collective expertise and assistance. Your willingness to share knowledge has made all the difference. Thank you!
Yours makes the 4th one I have seen that looked 100% but was burn't off inside. Thanks for responding. Simon C
No THANK YOU Simon. I would still be chasing it without the guidance.
Generally, 9 times out of 10, I would say, any problems to start are usually found to be cables or connections. Why most people don’t understand the ground is absolutely required to make any kind of AMPS, I don’t understand. Usually, on anything that requires a battery, when you see hammer marks, vice grips, screwdrivers used as wedges, seems like I have seen most of it, there is a bad cable or connection. Same with charging. How many new alternators or starters have been changed, have you seen, that did not fix the problems, probably more than a 100? LOL. Great job finding it and great job updating this thread.
IMO when diagnosing problems such as this one it pays to work starting from the battery (because that's where the electrickery comes from in the first place) and work away from it one step at a time. I'm also a big believer in using a high-amp test light to test wires rather than a multimeter set to check continuity. Any wire that is "hanging on by a thread" internally can potentially show good continuity on a meter but not pass the required amount of current for the circuit to function. The "Although it initially tested at .3 ohms with a meter, this measurement proved misleading." comment by the OP is proof positive of that. The same logic applies to fuel and hyfraulic systems as well, in that case always start from the tank.