Cat 267B has been going down on a regular basis from failed axle welds, bearing failures in the rear axle, leaking oil seals about every 300 hours. Wagner said they replaced everything more than once. Anyone know about these problems? It seems to be a design flaw that the factory should be looking at. This machine is run by one person and not abused in anyway, not run in mud or on pavement ever. It is now out of warranty but I think it is a problem that is caused by poor engineering and they should upgrade this unit as newer ones are different in design. Anyone else having the same problems?
I don't recall ever seeing a 267B and know of no skid steers that have axles. Maybe a photo might help.
They call them axles in the parts book but they are the rubber mounted assemblies which mount the track units to the machine.
They are axles. The problem is that there is an inner axle and bearing assembly that rides in an oil bath. If you look at the axle itself, in between the bogie or idler wheels you'll see a plug, the is where you fill/ drain the oil. You will also be able to see the inner axle. Anyways.... The seals fail, the oil leaks out and bam, there goes the bearings and before you know it, you are doing your under carriage( Idlers and bogies). Cat had a service letter for this (kind of like a re-call) but that expired Dec. 31, 2008. There are part numbers for available for the parts used in the service letter, let me know if you want those and I can PM you. I have seen and worked on quite a few 277B's and a 287B performing the service letter repair. I cannot explain the broken welds. Maybe explain where the weld is ?
The welds are breaking on the arms that connect the axles, which go all the way across each side, to the rubber isolators which mount the track assemblies. The set of rollers underneath the drive assembly have one bearing on each side. There is a roller I have seen in the parts book that has two bearings on each side. I think that was an upgrade due to the single bearing not being able to handle the side loads. The bearings in the lower assembly only last 200-300 hours before they fail, they are sealed bearings. I believe Wagner never upgraded my skid steer to the double bearing assembly the last time they repaired it under warranty.
You're probably right that they never upgraded your machine. My friend had a CAT 277 and they changed the bearings and eliminated the oil bath witha fully greased tube assembly and he never had a problem again.
After talking with Wagner about my ongoing problems with the 267 they agree that there were problems with their track system and it will cost me $6-8k to fix. With that in mind I would be better off getting a new machine. Wagner is going to let me demo a 299 next week and make a deal on a new one and give me a good trade-in value for the 267 as-is. Cat has been great as far as taking care of the 267 out of warranty but not this time so I am also going to try a Tak 250 and see who will give me the best deal.
After that you would still consider buying another?
There are a number of reasons I would stick with a CAT, the main one is Caterpillar and Wagner Equipment have the best customer service I have ever experienced. They repaired my 267 three times when it was over a year out of warranty no-charge, not even for pickup and delivery, as a goodwill gesture and now are offering to take a four year old machine in trade as-is at a good price and give me a deal on a new machine. It would be hard to beat that offer. I have to respect a company that goes that far for the customer when they did not have to. The only problems I ever had with the 267 was from the track system which they did not design. I would hope that they learned a hard lesson from using another company to design and build the track system for the older loaders. I am sure they lost quit a bit of money from that mistake over the last few years, not just from my machine but all of the other ones they sold. Their new track system looks much more durable and I am sure if there was a serial problem with the new machines they would still stand behind the product just as before. I am going to test a Tak just to see what the difference in performance is but in the end I more than likely will end up with another CAT :usa.
I've read your posts with great interest and it sounds like your local CAT dealer is top notch. However, I have to disagree with you on how you seem to lay blame on "another company" when it comes to some of the problems you've had with your undercarriage. I highly doubt that ASV "that other company", just showed up on CAT's door step peddling a cool undercarriage and snowed/fooled CAT into buying them to slap on their skid steers so they could have a CTL. I'm willing to bet that CAT saw some technology that it liked and thought it was an easy way to make a buck and get into the CTL business (after all CAT at one point owned almost 24% of ASV) without much R&D investment. The big problem that CAT probably failed to realize was that it might not work too well if you bolt someone elses undercarriage to a machine you designed for tires. I'm also sure that CAT spent considerable time running that "other company's" undercarriages on their skid steers before they released the machine to market. I've got to also believe that CAT thought enough of the "other company's" undercarriage to allow their dealers to sell one to you so they could make a profit. I guess they also thought highly enough of that "other company's" undercarriages to continue putting them on their C Series machines (277C, 287C, 297c) and B Series II (257 and 247). They announced some time ago that they signed a new agreement with ASV that goes through at least 2012. I've watched the evolution of CAT's use of the ASV undercarriage from a pretty good vantage point as a Bobcat salesman in a very strong CTL and skid steer market and I can tell you with absolute confidence that the ASV machines that use the same undercarriages as the CAT machines see far fewer problems and experience superior track and undercarriage life due to tha fact that the machine was designed around the undercarriage it rides on and wasn't just "slapped on" as an afterthought. By the way, the 279, 289 and 299C are still skid steers masking themselves as CTLs. Small engine displacements, aftercooled engines to squeeze more hp out of a small displacement engine (3.3L), low engine torque, poor ground clearance, poorer weight distribution, etc. I say this even though I think very highly of of CATs skid steers. Just maybe CAT had some involvement with some of the problems they've experienced on their MTLs. If I can buy a complete undercarriage for my RC50 if I wanted for under $7,000 why would CAT charge customers upwards of $17-20k for repairs on a 247. it happens too often to be an anomoly.
I never new the history of how CAT developed their track system or that they installed tracks on a tire machine. I would have to agree with you on that point by looking at the way they mounted the tracks to the machine I can see why they are having a problem with the welds breaking on the arms that attach the tracks to the loader. They look more like an adapter to make them fit on the machine with a different wheel base. It has a 1 1/2" square axle welded to the arm on both sides and the welding on the inside is very weak, almost a spot weld. The weld on the face has very little penetration as it was not beveled before welding. Using this arm in the way they are it puts a constant twisting load on the welds like a lever. That would be quite a bit of load on the welds, which is amplified by the lever design to make it fit the wheel base. The problem with the bearings failing on the lower idler assembly has nothing to do with mounting them on a wheel machine. It is a poor design that lets dirt past the seals and into the bearings which will soon fail. You can see from the picture the weld is cracked. The other picture you can see that the dirt shields are wallered out and are the only thing holding the idler assembly as the bearings are toast.
My buddy had a newer wheel put on that doesn't have oil, uses a tapered bearing, and has metal face seals like a dozer.
Hi guys, just came on this site and joined up. I have found duo cone seals that can be fitted into the idlers of a 267 with little machining. the seals are from a 308 digger roller. If any one is interseted reply back and I can get the part no. Bye
there is updated axles with metal faced seals that are grease packed, available from cat, the failure you showed on the rear idler is a common failure. I have also seen torsion axle failures like you pictured there was a service letter out on then but is out of date now. if it is the front torsion axle, you will not have to drop off both side track drive assemblies, but idf it is the rear, get ready for a big job or big repair bill. The rear torsion axle is about a 20 hour job....done about 50 of them. and that is in a dealer shop with proper tooling and equipment.
We had to change the torsion axles on our 287b front and back they were bent. It took my employee and i six hours to do it, glad i dont have to do that again.
267b Hi. I am in Australia and there is no listing for a metal faced seal idler any chance you'd have a part no I can throw at cat here. Much appreciated Greg
I will get it tomorrow.....
Yea the 287b isn't that bad to do... the 267b and 277b are a complete pain in the a##. ointhead
I disagree with what you are saying here about the 247 and rc 50, they look a like but nothing is interchangeable on these undercarriages, sprockets, bogies... nothing. The basic design is the same but thr rc50 the bogies and ilders all have smaller bearing and race set ups compared to the 247 asv design, cage brgs are also diff. I know this to be fact because I have had hundreds of both machines apart. The frame is also. If you seen people getting charge that then they are morans. You can buy complete b2 undercarriages from cat for $13,250 and that is complete with the hoses that run up to the hydrostat pumps. Now onto the subject of the masked ctl's well for a low displacement machine they have plenty of guts, last week I was pulling a down 277b off of a wood deck high back trailer hooked to a ford full sized one ton truck, on asphalt. we ended up using two 289 c with forks to pick it up and have him drive out from underneath it because trying to drag it off the truck, i WAS PULLING THE TRUCK TRAILER AND ALL! Just because Cat was smart enough to ataac technology to be able to get more power out of a smaller displacement engine and to make tier 4 epa isn't a bad thing. " other company's" undercarriages to continue putting them on their C Series machines (277C, 287C, 297c) and B Series II (257 and 247). They announced some time ago that they signed a new agreement with ASV that goes through at least 2012 ." You left out the fact that asv has to manufacture it to cat specs using cats design. Cat would provide any updates as asv would not allow the patent rights before, so When the contract was expired they were told you can build our undercarriages but to this spec and using this design, so you stating they still use a "asv" under carriage is stretching the truth a bit. They us a "asv built" undercarriage but nothing like the asv design. all the bogies and idlers on the b2 and c undercarriage use oil bath bearings with duo cone seals. since the change in undercarriage design our undercarriage work in our shop fell off over 80 percent, think cat design speaks for itself. " The big problem that CAT probably failed to realize was that it might not work too well if you bolt someone elses undercarriage to a machine you designed for tires. I'm also sure that CAT spent considerable time running that "other company's" undercarriages on their skid steers before they released the machine to market " This is a false statement also, the tub designs on the 2 series and the 7 series are completely different, but nice try. " I've watched the evolution of CAT's use of the ASV undercarriage from a pretty good vantage point as a Bobcat salesman in a very strong CTL and skid steer market and I can tell you with absolute confidence that the ASV machines that use the same undercarriages as the CAT machines see far fewer problems " The vantage point to have is Biased and uninformed as stated before the asv rc 50 and the 247-257 undercarriage are not the same, all upgrades were done by asv so it would work on the 247-257 machines. their failure not cats. Which included heavier bogie and idler bearing setup because of greater weigh of the machine. Larger cage spindle bearings due to higher drive torque, thicker drive frames to handle the overall weight diff of the machine all was done by asv for the 247-257 project. But you are salesman and bobcat one at that........ not that is a bad thing... I'm sure you feed this line to all of your prospective customers looking at Cat machines...same as cat salesmen due also. I am also not saying you are lying about anything you stated...just uniformed - ill informed Step one in being a good salesmen....Treat customers like mushrooms....keep them in the dark and feed them full of .......you know the rest.
267b Hi Sorry to be a pest but just wondering how your getting on with part no. Thought perhaps you had sent it and it didn't come, I do appreciate your time these idlers are sending me up the wall. Thanks Greg My email is [email protected] if you don't have it.
Hey sorry it took so long to get back to you, I work third shift as a shop foreman for Indianapolis city bus now, the Part number to the updated idler axle assembly is 261-6301. you will also need 2 of a 278-1312 end plates. You have to have the new style end plates because with the new seals being a metal faced seal the old style will not work. ask the dealer to look up this number and I believe the hardware to fasten the idlers to the axle assmblies stays the same. but if they look up this number it should tell them. Cat had a complete kit to update all of them it is contained in a service mag cat has out but I don't have access to it any more. They should be able to tell you it though. If I remember correctly around 7000 dollars but it is all hardware, all four idler axles end plates all new bogie axles with the updated seal set up and end plates for them. They had good success with this set up.
Get more power out of smaller displacement? Your kidding right? Your largest machines make about 217 foot pounds of torque. Not easy finding that number since CAT does its best not to publish it. By comparision, Bobcat 237, Deere 254, CASE 288.
Actually...I only run a couple of my own machines now and make my primary living as an Algebra Teacher
I forgot about this comment while I was writing my earlier post and I just couldn't help myself...hundreds?????? Hundreds of what? Hundreds of CAT MTLs, hundreds of of ASV machines apart, or hundreds of both? Do you even know how many MTLs and ASV machines have been sold in the Indianapolis area? It had better be in the thousands or both ASV and CAT have a problem if you've had "hundreds of both machines apart? Just for fun and games I'm going to call both my local CAT dealer in Wisconsin, the local ASV dealer, and the ASV factory. I'll make sure to get both the ASV part number for the bearings and seals and the CAT part numbers, AND the cross reference numbers to prove to you that they are the same.:drinkup
gidday, any chance you could get that part no sorry to be a pest but no one here has any idea.Ta
ASV Axle Failure CAT 287B MTL My CAT 287B MTL went into the shop for an engine replacement. The machine was submersed in mud and water for about 2 weeks after running into a sinkhole during the recent flooding in California. I was covered under CAT hazard insurance. The service was great and dealer has been great however.....Johnson Machinery/Riverside tells me that most of my seals are failing on my ASV Bogie/idler/axle assembly and that was not due to being submersed under mud and water. The repair estimate is about $2,800. $2,800 that I would have spent until I read that others are having the same problems and we can expect to make this repair on a regular basis. The ASV axles are a sealed "maintainence free" assembly. Yeah right no maintenance required only replacement. That way they can get an $10-$15/hour in maintainence cost from you. No one other than myself seldom operates this machine that I purchased new in 2006. I have only 640 hours on the machine and the tracks are in good condition. I lube it every day of use and have taken the machine in for factory recommended lubrication. I never recieved a service letter for this machine. I have not yet authorized this work and the machine sits at the dealer with a new engine. My machine is paid for, but in this economy this is a big burden right now to repair this machine. I can see that I am not the only person with this issue. I can see that others are only getting 200-300 hours before the seals fail. With a average track life of 1,500 hours this is unacceptable and poor engineering. Warranty or not this is a lemon. There are replacement axles by Red Roo made with superior seals and bearings that are serviceable with zerk fittings and I feel that CAT should correct this situation if they want to keep customers. In addition I see other owners are have welds fail and bent axles. What are you going to do CAT?
AH........ CAT is not going to do anything. The pitfalls of the MTL are well known by CAT and everyone else. Your comment on poor engineering is interesting. CAT never engineered that system.......ASV did.....for an ASV. CAT wielded it to a skid steer and shazamm you have an MTL. The weight of the CAT seems to shorten the life of the undercarriage considerably. The ASV back in the early days was a specialty application type machine. It has since been modified some since the 4810 years but is in my opinion still a specialty undercarriage, doing very well in some environments and terrible in others. Keep it in its element and they do well. My guess is that at best what CAT will do for you if you really complain is offer you a deal on a CAT CTL. CAT oversold the durability of the MTL, plain and simple, which is why they now offer the CTL, not as smooth or as quiet but much more durable. I believe that when the deal with Terex expires CAT will pull the MTL all together. The resale slaughter that takes place every week on IP with these things confirms their reputation in the market place. You say yours is paid for. I don't think you ever really get one of these paid for. At least if you use it. Your checks, instead of going to CAT Finanical instead go to CAT Parts. Sad Deal.
The bearing failure rate that I have seen on the MTL machines is mostly in the smaller units, 247, 257, 267. The comments bringing up application are right on the mark. These machines will go where others won't and where these shouldn't in many cases. I've seen them in developments working around broken concrete and debris or on city streets. I've seen them on steep slopes going down to salt water beaches. Most of the machines I have looked at are packed with mud and debris and no efforts were made to clean them out at least once in awhile. Cleaning is just part of basic maintenance for any machine. The design is the design. I suppose when people stop buying them or someone comes up with something better, Cat may change it. What I have told many I have dealt with in the last couple of years is that the machines are expensive to operate and the charge out rate should reflect that expense. I know from people I've talked to that $10 to $15 an hour in operating costs won't cover the undercarriage costs. Do the math and charge accordingly.
Ken...just like Ksss said...CAT probably isn't going to do anything, and while I feel for you and your failure...it is still my belief that CAT should have never tried to marry a tracked ASV undercarriage onto a skid steer without understanding that it would affect life, durability, performance, etc. I'll let you in on a little secret that goes hand in hand with what John C. said regarding factoring in the higher O&O costs with your bill out rate...you can buy an entire undercarriage for the 277 for about $14k...that is everything but the torsion axles and the drive motor....pair of frames, fully assembled wheel tubes, assembled srockets and a set of tracks. Factor this cost into your bill out rate and you can continue down the path that many frustrated CAT customers have gone with at least a warm and fuzzy that you have your undercarriage costs covered. Good luck.
I have good news. An engineering firm and I have fitted DUOCONE seals to my 267B front idlers. It's the seals that fail and allow dirt into the bearings. I found CAT duocones out of a digger and we fitted them into the idler. I have done 90 hours so far and no problems. seeya from Aussie
Good news. I don't know what kind of dealer network ASV has in Australia, but you should have just gone to them and bought a PT100 front idler assembly because they have been using duocone (face) seals for well over a year on their machines.
267B front idlers Will the PT100 front idler assembly fit straight into the 267.
No, I guess not. I did call my local dealer and you can buy an idler tube with face seals that will fit your 267 from the ASV dealer. He said you need to order two plates for the end of the tubes- 0700-299 and the tube itself 0700-297. He said you can use your own wheels. It sounds like you got it figured out, but I guess this will work for future reference. I don't know what kind of dealer network ASV has in Australia so you might need to find one down there. Good luck.
267 Gidday. Do you still have your 267? how is it going
Thanks. I'll dig in and see what prices they are. We do have a dealer here so should be ok. I'll let you know if it works. I'm not sure about the axle. I assume I'd need an ASV one to take the seals but I'll get a picture from ASV and go from there. Thanks again.
Hi guys, this thread has me worried about my 257. Not sure what series it is, but it is a 2005 model year. Do i need to worry about it. It only has 300 hrs on it. It is a different setup than the 267-77-87. Thoughts? What do i need to check? Thanks, Ken
SHAME CATERPILLAR SHAME ON YOU. Yesterday my 267 wouldn't release the park brake. After hours of fault finding we discover the computers are mounted down under the floor exactly where all the water mud sand etc runs when you wash out your cab or work in water. WHY I ask why the hell would you put the computer of all things down in the floor. I'll tell you so we have to buy new ones. CAT, I hope you read this, from my experience with your bobcats they suck and so do your engineers. Fortunetly there is enough cable to mount them up beside the pump so I advise everyone to lift your cab and floor and see if yours is down there too. Or maybe a CAT rep could reply with a list of bobcats that have their computers down there. Ha don't hold your breath.
Am needing too replaced the rear axle on our 287B. Could someone explain how too go about doing that?? Thanks
Yes I too am about to replace the right rear axle on my 289C. part # on the axle is 304-1854 and it was replaced by this part # 454-5969. Do u think anyone could give me a little insight about how to go about doing this job... please... any replies will be greatly appreciated tho so thanks in advance for anyone's time who does reply...