I have a 289D Cat skid steer serial # TAW02471, it has the C3.3B engine in it serial # 8ES2277. Machine has around 2800 hours on it. My oldest son had been running it for about an hour the other day. While moving a small pile of brush, the engine's rpm increased , he lost all controls (Hydraulics, movement) , engine exhaust was shooting white/blue smoke out tree top high. A 190-0 Engine speed High - Most Severe (3) came up on display. The engine stayed like this for about 1 minute , (even after the key switch was cut off), then the engine shut down. About 3 hours later , i was able to check the machine, it had no noticeable problems that i could see. Water in radiator was fine, oil looked ok level, and no signs of water in oil. Nothing leaking out of engine, everything looked normal. We tried to start the engine , it would crank, but not start running. I did notice that i did not hear the fuel pump coming on . So i got a heavy equipment guy to come and look at it / connect computer to it, he determined the fuel pump was bad. He replaced the pump , now you can hear the pump running , and even after using the key switch in the on position to bleed fuel system, the engine will crank but still want run. I have 3 questions . #1 = If while my son was running the skid steer, and the electric fuel pump went out, could it have caused the sudden rpm increase, and the smoking? #2=With a engine over speed fault 190-0 level 3 , does this require a cat service person to reset the computer before the engine will run? #3 = What are the odds of having a bad electric fuel pump, and a bad speed sensor at the same time? Thanks
When you crank it now are you getting any sort of smoke from the exhaust.? Can you get the inlet lines off and have a look at the turbo.? If it blew a shaft seal and allowed oil into the inlet the engine could have continued to run after a fashion for quite a while after cutting off the supply of fuel by turning off the key.
Nothing comes out of the exhaust The turbo hoses have some oil in them, not a lot but some.
Take a better look at the turbo. It sounds like it failed and fed oil into the intake and was combusting the oil. That's the smoke and that's the overspeed and lastly it's the reason it stayed running. I am also willing to bet that your airfilter is plugged which caused the turbo failure. Those little turbos will suck the guts out of themselves trying to breathe and will cause the failure you had. I have seen this more times than I can remember.
Paul, what your saying makes sense. This is basically a engine runaway scenario. I guess my next question is, after about a minute of hi rpm's, what stopped the engine? If the computer shut the engine down to keep it from destroying itself , after i repair the turbo, will i need to get Cat to reset this before it will crank. Right now my engine oil level is not low, i actually drained it and it was right at 3 gallons of oil. Thanks
There's no engine safety shutdown that I am aware of to need cat to reset. At this point I would pull the valve cover and look for bent valves and broken springs. In a sense this engine ran away and could have smacked the valves.
Not AFAIK or can determine from the online information. I don't think anything shut that engine down apart from the lack of oil going down the intake for it to run on. However you need to prepare yourself for more extensive damage to the engine than just the turbo. Even engine overspeeds of 5 seconds or so can result in all sorts of nasty consequences. According to what you are saying the engine ran for something in the order of a minute before it shut down. That's enough time to do a lot of damage. I have my fingers crossed for you. To give you an idea on a larger engine than yours an overspeed like the one you experienced would result in a mandatory engine removal and complete teardown/rebuild. Piston/ring damage, bent pushrods, rockers, etc, etc, were not uncommon in those circumstances. What the manual says is the approximate Refill Capacity and what's actually in the engine can be two different things. I always suggest to ignore the values in the manual and fill using the dipstick, sight glass, level plug, etc to get the correct oil level. Manuals are not infallible.
Thanks for the information. Does anyone know a way to move the skid steer, other than picking it up? Does it have any type bypass, or pressure relief for the drive so it can be rolled ?
Picking it up or dragging it are your only options. there is no bypass, drive motor disconnect, or towing valve.
Thanks
On this 289D skid steer with the C3.3B engine. Can anyone tell me what type signal is going to the injectors. Voltage level of signal, is it a constant signal or a pulse ? Thanks
No detailed information on it, sorry. All it says is "The injectors iuse signals from the engine ECM to produce the ideal timing and reduce exhaust emissions. There are 3 stages (pulses) to injection. First a small amount is injected, mitigating the effect of the initial burn and reducing NOx (oxides of nitrogen) and noise. The principal injection follows with the main burn, and in the last stage a diffuse combustion is induced, thus reducing particulate matter generated by the main injection." On electronic injectors on other engine models I've seen voltages up to 120v IIRC. No idea what voltage is used on the C3.8.
Actually I wasn't far off - 110v............ "To increase the responsiveness of the injector, the voltage that drives the injector is raised to a high voltage, accelerating the magnetization of the solenoid and increasing the responsiveness of the control valve. The machine voltage is raised to approximately 110 V by a high-voltage generating circuit inside the ECM and that voltage is supplied to the injector to actuate it" I would suggest that what really controls injector operation is the timing of the high-voltage pulses that are sent from the ECM to the injectors and not the actual voltage itself.
Thanks Nige i will do some more testing.
Nige, is the voltage for injector duty cycle you stated above correct for a 3.8L? I’m dealing with a crank-no-start myself on a 299d2 xhp. Serial # DX202119 With DVOM min/max connected to injectors I’m getting 0.25v…. I have checked all fuses
hey NIGE is this true or correct for a 3.8L injector duty cycle voltage? I’m dealing with a crank-no-start on a 299D2 XHP Serial # DX202119 With my DVOM min/max connected to injectors while cranking I’m only getting 0.25-0.30v…. I have checked all fuses
Give some more background to the problem. Engine cut off with no prior warning and won't restart, starting getting harder & harder over time until it reached a no start condition, etc, etc.? Any smoke out of the chimney while cranking.? AFAIK all electronically-controlled injectors operate on 100+ volts when energized. What I’m not sure about is whether or not there is any test for measuring activation voltage. I suspect not because TBH it's not necessary. EDIT: Direct quote from the service manual - "The battery voltage is raised to about 110 V by a high-voltage generating circuit inside the ECM and that voltage is supplied to the injector to actuate it." Does the machine have the optional RH instrument panel for displaying Diagnostic Codes.? I'm betting not because your Serial Number does not show up as having been built with that option. Does your RH panel look like the illustration below.? If it does then the only way I am aware of to diagnose the HP fuel system is to hook ET up to it and watch the fuel rail pressure while cranking. ET would also confirm what Diagnostic Codes are Active.
Ok so there is alot of background info to give so bear with me. Machine started running rough then died and is now a crank-no-start. It was taken into a local CAT dealer and their diagnosis was low compression on 3 cylinders, leaking past rings and engine had to be replaced. I pulled the engine and tore it down to replace piston rings, when I got to the pistons, cylinder walls looked great and rings looked great(1500 hrs total on machine) but I replaced them anyways and de-glazed cylinders. Reassembled and re-installed machine is still crank no start. I have CAT ET, one active code sets, I’m getting nearly 5000psi rail pressure while cranking. It will run off on ether.
CONTINUED——— The solenoid on top of the injection pump, the coil spring beneath it was rusty and had broken into pieces. I was able to get another solenoid and spring, still crank no start. I have replaced the supply pump filter and main filter.
Also when I got the front cover off, the timing marks on crank-idler-cam gears would never line up. I spun the engine a million times and they never lined up to eachother, same with the high pressure pump and it’s idler gear and I never messed with any of the gears/timing when tore down, I kept the injection pump installed the entire time.
Is it possible for this engine to have jumped timing? I wouldn’t think so….
Neither would I but anything is possible I guess, and I'm going to let the C3.8 engine experts take this one up from here. I seem to recall another thread not so long ago regarding a C3.8 where timing (more specifically aligning of timing marks) was an issue. Here's what I can find right quick. Just so you know the 2nd illustration on the first page (below) those marks are under a cover on the flywheel housing, not at the front of the engine.
Yea I have the instructions for timing “finding cylinder #4 TDC” I put the flywheel to its correct position and pump gear-idler gear marks would never line up. I spun another 180* and marks still wouldn’t line up. In fact I spun this engine a million times again always landing on the “1 TC “ mark and the gear marks never lined up…
I just don’t see how it’s possible on this timing setup for it to jump teeth…? Thanks for your help Nige. Do you know the usernames of the CAT 3.8L guys so I can PM them?
Do you actually mean 180* or a full revolution of the crank (360*).? I know enough to say that despite the C3.8 being a common rail engine the HP fuel pump has to be timed correctly to the crank. The reason why is somewhere in the thread linked below. Here is a thread with a similar issue to yours. Hopefully it might give you a few ideas/suggestions including those who chimed in trying to help. I don't recall the OP having the resources that you do though. HeavyEquipmentForums