working on a cat 297c, blinking exclamation , Parking brake locked on , neither contros work, will start but not move. Had a tech come out and hook up computer and it read the right joystick was getting more voltage than it should, high voltage, he said the right joystick had a lot of codes thrown , whatever that meant and the left joystick had a few codes thrown. He said he believed it to be the right joystick most likely, but couldnt say with 100% confidence. Is there any way to test joystick out of skidsteer. Or is there any recomendations anyone have. Currently the joystick is out of skidsteer . Thank you for any help
you will need a new joystick, my 289c did almost same thing. i was told that the new 1 needs to be programed in the machine
Start with a Serial Number please. There are a couple of different models it's nice to know which one we're dealing with. Also can you define "not move" a bit more. No drive, no implement (lift/tilt) functions, or both.? Do you have any back story regarding what happened just before it quit.? Did the tech use Caterpillar ET or a generic scanner to access Codes.? Did he give you a list of the Codes he found.? Were the Codes Active or Logged.? If he didn't give you a list of Codes please can you contact him and ask for them, also ask him were they Active or Logged. Do you have a digital multi-meter.? That's not correct. AFAIK a joystick base is plug & play, but needs some testing done first to definitively identify the fault. A replacement base is North of $500 and, if I understand the OP correctly, he's talking about both of them. Trying to avoid a $1k mistake here..........
thank you for your information
the only information I can say is the machine will start. Not move in direction , or any joystick movement at all with lifts
and thank you for your help
That clarifies things somewhat, even though I would like some answers (if you can get them) regarding the Codes and how they were obtained. Here's an easy test for you, although it will take two people. Open the rear access door. Have someone sit in the seat and start the engine. Does the radiator cooling fan start to spin immediately the engine starts.?
I will do that, thank you for your advice, If it is spinning, is there something I should look for next or if it isnt spinning is there something I should look for next. And thank you for your help. This machine has less than 700 hours on it. Also it is a 2016 . Would/could a small hydrolic leak cause system to lock up if it knows it has a slight pressure loss.
Based on your description of the symptoms (no drive, no implements) I’m half expecting you to discover that the fan is not turning. If that is the case then it’s 99.9% certain that the coupling between the engine and the hydraulic pumps has failed.
yes sir, where would I look if you know the rough area. would it be in back with door open or under cab with cab lifted for the potential failed coupling
Let’s not get too previous….. Do the test of starting the engine first and check to see if the radiator cooling fan starts turning.
yes sir, thank you for your advice, when I was looking under cab for anything obvious, I thought I saw a little fluid on a hose.
okay, we started it up and the radiator fan cut on as soon as engine started. we did that three times and it cut on every time. I did raise the cab and it seems like there could be a hydraulic leak on the left side ( as if you're sitting inside the cab) but i cant tell for sure. also hydraulic fluid is in normal level but there could be a small leak. thank you again for any advice.
OK, the fact that the radiator fan starts as soon as you start the engine kills my theory that the coupling has failed. This is good news for you in one way because it means that the engine does not have to be removed to replace the coupling.......... So now we are back to asking the same questions as before:- 1. Serial Number. This will be important because in all likelihood the electrical schematic will be required. 2. Do you have any back story regarding what happened just before it quit.? Or any story at all.? 3. Did the tech who diagnosed it use Caterpillar ET or a generic scanner to access Codes.? Did he give you a list of the Codes he found.? Were the Codes Active or Logged.? If he didn't give you a list of Codes please can you contact him and ask for them, also ask him were they Active or Logged. 4. Do you have a digital multi-meter.?
I will try to find all information out. I do remember seeing on his computer the seat sensor worked. Arm rests worked. Door switch worked and gps worked. It said right joystick had overvoltage.
Thank you. Without some answers now it's a bit of a cr@p shoot to even think what to suggest as a next step. The last thing you want is to blow $1k+ on two new joystick bases only to find that doesn't resolve the problem. Joystick bases are known to fail from time to time but I get extremely suspicious when apparently two of them have failed at exactly the same time. It sets my bullsh1t meter off....... If the tech was using Cat ET for diagnostics please ask him if he downloaded a "Product Status Report" (PSR).? It is an Adobe pdf file. If he did can he send it to you, if he didn't why not because it's SOP every time a tech first connects to a machine.
heres what the techs response was , his laptop contains the actual caterpillar diagnostic software. the codes were right joystick left/right voltage too high right joystick fwd/rvrse voltage too high left joystick fwd/rvrse voltage too high left joystick left/right voltage too high He did not save it on a usb downloaded pdf. he also said the right had 62 occurences and the left had only 5 or 6
To be honest from the answers he's coming up with it appears to be a waste of time talking to him. See the attachment. Get the Monitor into Service Mode and list whatever is shown in Service Mode 1 (Active Diagnostic Codes) & Service Mode 3 (Active Events). Still waiting for answers to Questions 1, 2, & 4 above.
#1, still have to get serial # #2, one owner, less than 700 hours, I don't have much backstory as original owner passed away. All small fuses check out Ok, I don't know how to test cat, 5 pin fuses beside the small fuses. I will get Service monitor on and see what it says. I did notice the other day the two buttons on right joystick was putting pressure but nothing would lift. And then later it wouldn't do anything except hear noise with roller. I could have overlooked something like open door if that can stop buttons from working. Just not sure.. #4 I do have multi meter
Serial # is gcp00765
Codes were e875-2. E875-1 3195839 I have more #s from a different page but wasn't sure if you want them
serial GCP00765 not much background story as owner passed away the guy did have a cat computer that said joystick overvoltage on both #4 i do have multimeter i went on service mode and heres what I saw, Not sure what i was looking at but E875-2 , E875-1 3195389 01 98 01 11% 2475-3 2204 2474-3 2475-3 2476-3 2477-3 2475-4 2477-4
Apologies for the delay. Been away for a few days and had no chance to look for info. E875-1 & E875-2 are low voltage events that happen from time to time. Nothing really to get worried about IMHO. Moving on - 2204-3, 2474-3, 2475-3, 2476-3, 2477-3 are ALL related to signal over-voltage on every function (fwd/back, left/right) of the LH & RH joysticks plus the Aux thumbwheel roller. I suspect that points to something amiss with either the power supply or the ground because both of those circuits are common all five of the position sensors on the LH & RH joysticks. Here are a couple of troubleshooting procedures. For the 5 Diagnostic Codes the procedure for testing the sensor power supply or sensor ground will be exactly the same for each one of them so there is no need to upload all five. My suspicion is that you will find something from what's attached. You will also require an electrical schematic that I will send to you separately. Keep an eye on your messages. This is the reason I asked if you had a multimeter. You will need it to measure voltage and continuity. If it has the capability to measure Duty Cycle so much the better because that means you will also be able to measure sensor output.
Nige , I was told from CAT that a bad battery or alternator could actually cause a code for joysticks to be thrown as well. When I went to the service mode screen the first two codes where e875-1 and e875-2. Should I first test the alternator or battery, the battery is new and I fully charged it before installing, it is not a CAT battery but was a battery that I found was applicable the cat 297c
and thank you for all your help and time..,
What voltage do you measure across the battery terminals when the key is off and when it is on.? Then measure the voltage within the engine running. Post your results. I’d suggest getting into the troubleshooting procedures and see where they lead you. My money is on a wiring fault in either the common power supply or the common ground for the joystick sensors.
Thank you and I will go in that order
I finally made it to 297c to measure battery. Battery was 12.5v. At a little above idle it was 14.25. I also checked with running under cab were all red covers were there were about 9 and all red 14.25. All fuses behind seat had battery voltage. I believe there's some relays beside fuses I don't know how to check
Also I did notice the power side on battery did need cleaning as it did have build up, someone told me that can cause issues too
Time to get into those troubleshooting procedures (see Post #24 above) for the Diagnostic Codes then.
Juse a side note, when i use the roller , you can hear it shutter as though there is pressure there, just no movement. Also both buttons on right joystick, other than right joystick buttons , roller, and horn on left , that's all that seems to work or cause a noise to seem as if it would work if everything else was working
Mr Nige, I was looking over the cat 297c and noticed a black wire that goes to the fuel separator that was broken. I am going to try to repair it but it looks like it broke in a place that I may not be able to hook the wires back together. I am going to do as you directed to do for following diagram #24 and testing but I was wondering if you knew if the broken wire could cause the joysticks to not work and parking brake to lock up. Thank you ad always for your expertise
I believe the wires are to the fuel pump
When you first turn the key in does the pump run.?
I checked today and when key is turned on, it does run for roughly 10 seconds. I am assuming this is a fuel pump or fuel transfer pump
Based on your reply above it doesn’t sound like it. Can you see any numbers on them.?
However I am still wondering if the actual fuel pump
258-3442. Is written on the unit that has the wires. The ground from fuel pump or transfer pump is clipped right at connection or broken, previous owner grounded the wiring harness which would have came back to connection. When key is turned on, it does come on for roughly 5-10 seconds. I'm just wondering if it's not grounded exactly how it came from factory could it throw a reading to computer or if there is a fuel relay beside the fuses that burnt out and locked machine down
There should be 2 wires to that unit, 327 Pink and 200 Black, the latter being the ground. Just to mention here that the 200 Black joins with a gazillion other back in the harness and ends up at the platform ground stud. The fuel pump should not run unless that Black wire has somehow been grounded to somewhere else on the machine frame.
Nigeria, there are 4 wires to fuel pump. One big red wire , one big black, one very small red and one very small black. The very small black one is the one broken. The pump does come on when unit is started and fuel pump runs roughly 10 seconds. Im assuming the big wires run the pump. Im wondering what the two small wires do and if they run to ecm and could possibly lock system down if ecm doesn't detect it?.
IMHO someone has been butchering the wiring. Your photo shows a connector (circled) and a protective sleeve (arrowed) both of which are not OEM Cat parts. The electrical schematic shows one Pink and one Black wire, both 18 SWG, to the fuel priming pump. There are no red wires.
Ok, thank you for clearing this up for me. It's the only place I see the previous owner did some work to it.
It might be worth your while tracing that additional wiring and find out where it goes. I'm assuming that a previous owner installed it to fix an actual or perceived problem.
I think it actually may go to a back up camera... but Im not 100% sure.
Why would anyone take the supply for a backup camera from the fuel pump when there are spare (unused) fuses in the fuse box for exactly that putpose.?
All of these had 14V When at idle with cab up testing volts. I am unable to see power to any fuse but could be doing it wrong. Horn does work. Ac blower does work and I believe they run through the fuse box. Sorry for so much confusion. & thank you for your ongoing help. The grey box is hooked to fuel pump and to a backup camera. I do not know why it's hooked that away
14V. At a little above idle.
Power for the horn siwtch comes straight from the battery, not from the fuse box. I'd suggest to go back to first principles. With the engine stopped, pull the 3 protective covers inside the red area of the first photo. You should find a large terminal stud under each one. Do you have battery voltage on all of them.? Disconnect the two 2-pin connectors inside the blue area. Turn on the key but don't start the engine. Do you have battery voltage measured between the yellow wire and the black wire on the half of the connector with the wires on it.? If you do, turn off the key and reconnect everything. Go to the second photo. Pop off the cover in the red circle and a 2nd cover (arrowed) that is almost out of shot on the left side. Again you should find a terminal stud underneath each cover. Turn on the key. Do you have battery voltage at those two terminals.? If so then you have power to your fuse box.
ok, so we have battery power to the first picture and to the second picture.. to the relay side and to the fuse side. Then tested power to the fuses and they did have battery voltage as well. I then jumped to the L.H. joystick and tested pink wire at which it did have battery voltage too. I ran out of time but that is what I got done today. Again thank you for your patience and mechanical advice. Also Battery is just a couple months old, good voltage and very clean posts.
Mr. Nige, I think we might be getting somewhere. Just a recap. Battery is good, chargings system is good, all fuses are good, all relays beside fuses are good. When I lift the cab and All of the covered red big wires that are bolted on with red cover are getting battery power and the two seperate plugs that have the yellow wire and black wire are getting battery power. The wires in back of machine are hooked to the lifter pump and runs a back up camera and I dont think it has anything to do with locked system. I have gone to the l.h. joystick and with key on I do not believe it is getting power as I checked the pink and the black with key on . I am going back out there to reverify that is what I got. I have the two different forms from the above post to test the joysticks. Just wanted to let you know and if there are any tips at this point. thank you as always
and how do I differentiate from active codes and old thrown codes.. which screen or what is shown on screen to let me know thats its active or just old recorded code.
Go back to Page 1, Post #19, where I posted an attachment showing how to use the Monitor Panel to access Diagnostic Codes and Events. Here is what's found where: - Service Mode 1. Active Diagnostic Codes. Service Mode 2. Logged (old) Diagnostic Codes. Service Mode 3. Active Events. Service Mode 4. Logged Events.
Mr. Nige, I went about a week ago and checked power to the l.h. joystick with pink and black wire. If I was doing it correctly and probes were reaching inside of connector correctly then there is no power to the joystick. I kept it plugged together, probes in , turned key on and nothing. I then took ground probe out of black and went directly to ground frame and still nothing. Is there any tip from here you can give. I am reading notes from pages I printed off from what you sent me , starting to get confused . Thank you as always for your patience and helpful advise.
That sounds as though you were doing it right. If you have no power on the C126 pink wire at the joystick end you need to go back to the top half of the fuse box, fuse A4. That is the other end of the same C126 wire. Do you have 12v measured between the outlet side of the fuse (red arrow) and machine frame ground.? While you are in there it might pay you to make sure there is power at the input side of the fuse (blue arrow). Both of the tests above are done with the key ON.
Just to throw in, in case I’ve missed it, but have you checked the park brake/hydraulic lock switch is okay? Nige, as ever, you’re a diamond for the support you give people on here.
We checked the parking brake switch, but when you say hydraulic lock switch are you talking about the switch a person pushes to turn off brake or another switch. We tested the one you push to turn off brake and was ok
No Paul, same switch does both.
Must admit I thought of that too, but the active 2476-3 and 2474-3 voltage above normal codes will jam on the park brake. We've also found why the codes are active... If the LH joystick is not getting power on the 126 pink wire then neither are the 4 PWM signal wires that return to the ECM. The ECM detects this and sends a voltage down those signal wires "above the normal working voltage" of that PWM signal. Eager to know the answers to Nige's last question above.
Nige, I rechecked every fuse, A box and B box from top to bottom, every one was getting 1.2-1.5v from powerside of fuse to the other side of fuse. I went back under cab and rechecked all connections with a red cap and all had 12volts.. I rechecked the two plugs with yellow wire and black wire and unplugged they are getting 12volts
That was not my question. Go back to the snip taken from the electrical schematic that I attached to Post #57 on the previous page. Specifically for fuse #A4 (power supply to LH joystick base - only live when key is ON ) check:- 1. From input (bus bar) side of fuse to machine frame ground as indicated by the blue arrow. 2. From output side of fuse to machine frame ground as indicated by the red arrow. Report your findings.
i rechecked today and the all fuses are getting the range of 1.2-1.5 range on both power in side and power out side of fuses. I went back under the cab and the two plugs that are a yellow and.. black wire are getting 12volts with unplugged to the yellow wire on both. If i am understanding it correctly these two seperate components go to the fuse box , one to the top half set of fuses and the other to the bottom set of fuses. Not sure what to test here are to replace the two boxes that the yellow and black wire plug in to or what from here
yes sir, the reading for #A4 was 1.2 on the powerside of fuse and on the other side of fuse. Every fuse had a similiar reading . I checked my meter and measured the battery just to make sure and it read 12.5 volts.
what do you mean from busbar side.. at the fuses or from the back of fuse box
If your readings are correct then nothing electrical should be functioning. Certainly the engine should not start. See the illustration below. Blade fuses like the ones used in your skid steer have two small holes (circled), for want of a better expression, in the top of the fuse. As you look at the fuse A4 in your fuse box the RH side "hole" corresponds to the input side of the fuse and the one on the LH side corresponds to the output side. Put one probe of your multimeter the appropriate hole and touch the other one to machine frame ground to measure the voltage at that point.
yes sir, every single fuse section A and B box all read 1.2-1.5 on both sides of fuse. Including A4 was 1.2. I will recheck to make sure i had my meter on the correct setting but i did measure the battery and it said 12.4 volts and i remeasured the two different yellow wires under cab and they read 12.4 volts as well. I am thinking I may need to look at the connection on the back of the fuse boxes???
it will start so I guess i need to redo my measuring of fuses.
Nige, ok I'm making very small progress but I'm making progress. I didn't have a good ground...EVERY FUSE is getting power including A4.. pink at joystick plugged in and ground tester to Frame shows 12v.. when I plug my black tester into 203 black wire at joystick connector there is no power
That'll also produce a -3. You found the problem again
See the illustration below. Disconnect the 6-pin connector next to the joystick back and with the key ON measure betweeon the following points:- 1. Pin 1 (126 Pink) and machine frame ground. 2. Pin 1 (126 Pink) and Pin 2 (203 Black).
Yes sir... pink to ground Frame 12.2v.. Pink to black 12.2v
fuses
pink to black plugged in 12.2v.
Mr. Nige, can you please send me testing for the righthand joystick for codes 2475 & 2477.
The code occurances were roughly 56 times where as the left hand joystick codes were only 4. I talked to a guy who had plugged a computer up to it a few months ago and he told me that
I te
Which statement is correct?
Left joystick unplugged pink & black have power Plugged they have battery power Right joystick unplugged #1 orange & #2 black have power... Plugged they do not. This is correct
I believe my right joystick (system is bad) causing brake to lock and not allowing left driving joystick to work
You could be right. The -3 troubleshooting procedures are more or less the same for LH & RH joysticks, they both operate the same way, and you have the schematic which tells you which wires go where. The trouble is you don't have ET hooked up to see what codes are active right now. So we need to improvise. Nige is talking you through verifying/confirming you have correct power and ground to the LH joystick. That is now confirmed. The next step is to verify you're getting the correct PWM signal out of the joystick and back to the ECM on each of those 2 signal wires. It's a simple test where you switch your multimeter to duty cycle and has been covered a few times before. If you need help with that let us know. Once you do that you can move onto troubleshooting the next codes in your list (because again we have no idea what's active or just logged at this point). When you say you're checking the power and ground with the plugs connected, how are you doing that?
I don't get what he means by pink and black have power. Or orange and black for that matter. The test Nige suggested was to check for 12v on pink wire, using chassis as a ground source, this is to verify a good ground. Then to ground Pink 12v wire to eng harness ground, black wire, to verify ground from that point back to ECM. Something is getting lost in translation me thinks.
Connector plugged in and probes going into back
Back of connection into #1 & #2 .. power and ground
I get power to pink wire and ground to frame... or ground to black 203 with plug plugged together on left hand joystick... but righthand joystick only gets power when not plugged together. As soon as plugged, power goes away. I believe the next thing is to check for broken wire, loose connection or corrosion on the righthand joystick
The pink #1 to power left joystick gets power with probe to ground, with probe to #2 black203 and with the connector plugged in. The right joystick gets power #1 orange and frame ground or through black 203 wire. But when plugged together it does not
Ok, so to me, its not that there's no power, its means there is a short to ground, pulling the voltage to zero. Did you try a continuity test of the ground circuit, from the unplugged connector to the unplugged ECM connector. Keep in mind that a partial green crusty wire can handle an ohm meter, and maybe even a test lamp, and may present as good, so you should introduce a load, like a 2-3 amp light bulb, to rule out a green wire.
That’ll do. X 2 what Arny said about continuity (aka resistance) check. Wiggle the wires and look for a change in meter reading also. Being an internal ECM ground though I’d be hesitant running a load or using a test light. That’s just me. I’d rather run a new test wire to confirm.
If ECM is unplugged, you should not cause a problem. But running a wire will work as well.
Mr. Nige, I do have 12.5v to #A4 fuse to both sides of fuse. I also went back to the LH joystick and tested pink to ground frame with results of battery voltage 12.5v. with the joystick unplugged key on, then tested with the joystick connector plugged back in , with probes in back of connector, red probe to pink #1 and black probe to black #2 and did get battery voltage 12.5. I then tested the righthand joystick unplugged with power to #1spot of connector which is orange wire to ground frame and received battery power 12.5v. Then still unplugged to orange #1spot and then to black #2 spot in connector and again had battery power 12.5v. When I plugged the righthand joystick connector together and tested for battery power then it had 0 v. Also I spoke with the guy who did a computer plug in check that read the machine a few months back remembered specifically that the righthand joystick had about 53 or 56 occurences and the lefthand had only 3 or 4. I am wanting to test the righthand joystick and only have the lefthand instructions . I am thinking maybe a wire is loose or broke from joystick to ecm possibly. Any thoughts and if the righthand joystick connection was broke or unplugged, would it throw the brake causing the lefthand joystick to be inoperatable as well. thank you for any advice and help as always.
Here are the troubleshooting procedures for same -3 Diagnostic codes for the RH joystick, both FWD/REV and side-to-side.
thank you as always and for your patience.