I'm evaluating CTL machines for lease/purchase in a land clearing/land maintenance application. The intended use of the machine includes: - cedar abatement/suppression - mesquite abatement/suppression - clearing undergrowth - creation and maintenance of 8' - 10' wide unpaved vehicle access roads over mixed terrain including river sediment/soil, light clay soil, gravel, limestone - creation and maintenance of 6' - 8' wide walking trail through wooded terrain Intended attachments include a mulcher/forestry cutter, rotary cutter and/or flail cutter, angle blade, standard loader blade and possibly power rake. Based on availability of local support, cost and financing, I've narrowed the field to include the Cat 299C, Bobcat T320, and Takeuchi TL250. The selected machine will include the manufacturer's forestry cab options, with sealed operator compartment and A/C, hydraulic quick connect and high-flow pump. The machine will see most of its use in clearing and suppression operation, with occasional use in maintaining and constructing RV pad sites, including grading, trenching for sewer, water and electric hook-up. We have an existing Cat D3G with VPAT that I've been using in brute-force mode in the land clearing/maintenance application, but clearly it is at a disadvantage in terms of flexibility, efficiency and operating cost for most of the long-term projects that have been identified in our development program. I'm looking for feedback/experience from those of you who use the 299C, T320 or TL250, especially in land clearing applications with similar machine attachments. The environment here is Central Texas, along the Guadalupe River in a development project for expanding an RV Park/Campground. I have a combination of sedimentary soil, river rock, gravel, limestone, sand and light clay soil to contend with, lots of cedar and mesquite under 8" in diameter, and need a single machine with lots of flexibility/versatility. Cost of ownership, reliability and machine capability are the top three concerns. We would ideally like to eliminate the D3G from the machinery pool, but want to retain some of the capability of a small dozer - this in part is driving me to look at the CTL machine class. We also have an existing John Deer 320 skid-steer machine, but it is underpowered for most of the intended applications, and does not handle well (wheels as opposed to a tracked machine) on the terrain where most of the work needs doing.
Welcome to the site! I would say first that there was a thread very similar to this one (I think it was called Takeuchi TL250 vs. Cat 299C).
Takeuchis ride like crap. If you want to be comfertable buy a cat plus you can get parts and service the next day not next week.
do the clt's run cheeper per hr than a d3 or is all the talk about track and roller's costing heeps not that mutch in the big pitcher? you dont get d3 tracks giving the issus of rubber tracks ? or i hav'nt any way. the rubber track/boggy wheels sound like they are not cheep if you have problims? would be very keen to know if any one has both and knows the differece per hr?
Or the Positrack
guys im looking for the same type information. who has the most dependable steer for these applications? not trying to hi-jack. jason
The D3 is pretty bullet-proof with SALT/SystemOne undercarriage and steel track. One of the positives of the T320 is the option to retain a solid undercarriage along with steel tracks, vs. roller-suspension on the 299C and rubber/steel-reinforced track. On machines with roller-suspension it seems like one gives up some machine capacity in favor of operator comfort, and probably reliability/operating cost. All other things being equal, if rubber tracks only have a 700-hour operating life as opposed to 2000+ hours out of steel, logic says a rubber tracked machine will take a hit in this component of hourly operating cost. I have not looked into aftermarket steel track as an option for either Tak or Cat, however if we end up going the Bobcat route it will definitely be with steel track.
I do think Bobcat is on to something with the ability to order a machine with the steel tracks. I think it fits very well into your type of application. I guess the one drawback of the steel track is that you can't switch back and forth to rubber tracks if you needed to. I'm also curious to see how long the steel undercarriage (and the rest of the machine) holds up at 6mph both forward and reverse. Going backwards at high speeds on dozers/crawlers has a significant impact on wear and operating cost.
When I operate the D3G, I usually position the governor and run the throttle button in mid-range, and keep the speed down (the dash needle around "2"). On that machine, the reverse speed by default is 120% of the forward throttle setting, which can produce some pretty unsettling results when switching from a high forward operating speed into reverse. That's one of the many reasons I keep the operating speed down. Even when traveling distance from the work to parking area, I travel slowly to avoid extra wear on the undercarriage, for safety concerns, and so as not to alarm park guests who might be within visual range (seeing a dozer hauling ass could be alarming to some). I'm still pretty green, but from what I understand based on the input from experienced operators, reverse travel produces more wear on the undercarriage than forward travel. One of the curiosities of the D3G controls is why the reverse speed is 120% of forward, given more undercarriage wear from reverse travel? Do the small CTL machines behave this way? I'm going to demo in the next couple of weeks, so I'll find out first hand, but I still wonder why the dozer works like this. As it relates to the CTL, I would probably avoid using the machine near maximum throttle for the same reasons. When I operate the existing JD320, I keep the speed low because it bounces around and is a bone-shaker, even more than the D3G when operated past 2/3 throttle. In my application steel tracks make more sense than rubber - I can see lots of applications where the ability to easily switch between steel and rubber would be valuable, however that is something I can give up in this case. I don't have to cross pavement, or sensitive surfaces. I've laid out the site so that I have entry/exit paths for the machines that don't require crossing, or operating on any of the vehicular paved roads or landscape/lawn areas.
About your first question: as with most decisions, the one to dictate the ratio of the reverse speed to the forward speed is one mostly of productivity vs. wear. Though reverse increases wear quicker, it's also usually non-productive; that is, unless you're backdragging, reverse is just transportation from one place to the next. It's likely that running a bit faster in reverse just to save time will offset the lost production cost that you'd incur if you ran at, say, 83% of forward speed. In a nutshell, it may be that increased wear rates in reverse are worth it if you can make up the cost in higher production. The CTL machines will also wear differently in forward and reverse, I want to say, but there's no governed limit -- as in you won't go 120% faster in reverse than in forward.
dont you just use the decel peddle in reverse to get the speed you want without the revs? my d3c hystat is a litle differnt than a "g" but the decel is the same i think. has anyone got the steel tracks on there bobcat?
The decel pedal functions the same way on the D3G, and it slows things down in reverse. Early on, it was somewhat disconcerting, even though I knew the reverse speed was higher than forward, and I learned to use the decel pedal to take the whiplash out of the picture... Ditto on the steel track Bobcat question. The local dealer hasn't had anyone order a machine like this yet, and hasn't got much to say about pros and cons of this configuration.
Hey u all make awesome points but one thing i have to say is that i currently have a ctl 80 wich is icentical to a Takeuchi TL250. I am currently looking at a cat 299c because the gehl fell apart slowly but surely i bought it cause i loved the power of it, but it is only at 1300hrs and already the cab is showing stress cracks and i have worn/bent the bucket on it ,the a/c doesnt work and the factory mounted radio broke the weld a month ago and hit me in the face. Its a good machine for the first bit but the longjevity of it is terrible, so im hoping that the cat will be much better for me.
i ran the steel tracked bobcat and i was impressed. you can set the power it puts to the ground which is neat. I was pushing off pit run at our dump site with a smoothed edge bucket. at first it was running like a raped ape, just real fast. so i called my dealer. He had me adjust something same rpm just alot steadier. i did not know the controls so it tool me awhile. Now it is not a dozer but would make a great machine for your application. The new cab is pressure sealed as well. I would also give the cat a look i think it has a new u/c so that will help.
Hire a Pro .....lol sorry I couldnt resist. I havent had much luck with anything other than CaT and would buy NOTHING else, but that is my opinion take it or leave it. Pj
Buy the Bobcat. We have Cat a 289C at work and it is broke down all the time. You can not keep the tracks on it.
Unless you were running a new demonstration unit T630 or T650 the cab was not pressure sealed from the factory . They don't offer it . I talked to a guy who tried the steel tracks and he said the track length was too short to really get any additional work done over the rubber tracks for the extra $10k that the steel tracks will cost you and they are not interchangeable.
You can keep the tracks on with the double flange rear idler, but I bet the CAT salesman does not know that it is an option. The single flange stinks on any slope work.
what about the jd 332 is it an ok skid steer or what
it ok but not the best its jst got balls no comfort or visibility
i believe i said "new cab" refering to the new models coming out. what i ran was a t320 or with steel tracks. i liked the machine. make of it what you want. i am on here for fun not to argue about little stuff that is off the point. seems to be too much of that going on.
Just trying to clarify. The T320 does not have a sealed cab, but the S/T-630/650s are supposed to. I was just offering a comment opposite of what you said regarding the steel track option. I'm not trying to argue, I'm not pinging on Bobcat (I own a S220) and I'm glad you liked the performance. It is quite likely that your application was better suited to the use of steel tracks compared the the application that the guy I spoke to was performing. Continue on your fun parade...no sarcasm intended :drinkup
is the bobcat steel track a salt track or dry link? do you know what the life span will be? i hope its not just small digger tracks put on a trackloader or it may cost more than its worth.
If your reference to "salt track" means tri-link to help with shoe deflection than I don't think so. I don't know what the life span would be but what would the life span on a dozer be at 7mph both forwards and backwards? what the life will be it would have to justify the extra US$10k the option will cost you and they are not interchangeable back and forth with the rubber tracks.
I have run a Bobcat T320 for a contractor as well as an ASV-RC100. After spending about a hundred hours operating each of those I ended up buying a Mustang MTL25 (same thing as a Takeuchi TL250). I have a couple of Bobcat mini excavators and am satisfied with them. I have noticed that the similar sized Kubota and Takeuchi excavators seem to be more powerful than my Bobcats, but they work okay for me. The Bobcat T320 runs strong but I just didn't like the way they operated. I also bent the loader arms prying up some concrete slabs. That got me in hot water a bit, but the ASV/Cat machines or Tak machines did the same tasks without problems. The ASV/Cat machines rode the best, were the fastest, and pulled better in mud than any others but they wouldn't do what the Tak machine would do as far as pure brute strength in prying out stumps and digging out buried rocks and concrete slabs. In my personal view, if you do a lot of work in deep mud or travel a lot across finished lawns, the ASV/Cat machines would be the way to go. However, in my case, I don't get into all that much deep mud but often need to rip out large stumps and pry out concrete slabs and large boulders. The Tak/Mustang/Gehl machines flat out have a stronger frame and undercarriage. That does result in a stiffer ride but not enough to bother me. I really went back and forth between an ASV100 and the Tak/Mustang/Gehl unit. In the end, the fact that the Tak was just flat out stronger was the deciding factor for me. With a couple hundred acres of property to work on I wanted the power and strength. If I mostly stayed on my finished lawn or was digging more ponds, I'd likely have gone with the ASV/Cat machine. Or, if I lived in an area that got a lot of snow and I wanted to use the machine to clear snow I can see an advantage to the ASV/Cat machines. To me, the strong Tak machine wasn't too hard on the finished lawn and just was built heavier and seemed to take to banging hard work better. Good luck with whatever you get.
This is all good info. I for one have demoed every single machine out there and i must say the tak machines are the strongest out there but there loud and have a harder ride then any machine i ever demoed. I Liked the t320 i thought it was real powerful and the ride is better in the bobcat then in the tak. The cat mtl machines have the nicest ride i agree but after 800 hrs if your lucky your rebuilding the whole undercarriage. The type of work i do i would destroy that machine.
After putting about 700 hours on a Cat 955 dozer I had, all of the rubber tracked ctl machines seem like they ride nice to me. :drinkup
Excellent point. What do you reckon would happen to an operator's body over 5-10 years in a dozer that went 8mph?
I just did a demo on a T320. Its not CAT. Its a dog, rides poor and it fuel numbers are very poor. The new CAT undercarriages will prove excellent!
Um, two ruptured discs in the back?
Precisely, and in some of the most ergonomically designed cabs in the world. Throw in neck and kidney problems like so many in the past too. Why would it be any different for someone who plans on buying a rigid framed CTL to make a living in/with over 5-10-15 years? I personally think the ride is worse with respect to the movement and jerking of the machine compared to a dozer, and this is at 6-8mph . If you factor that this jostling and pounding is taking place much of the time while the operator is looking over his shoulder while backing up (more common in compact equipment) you can begine to see potential health issues for rigid CTL operators down the road with their necks, backs, and kidneys. I'm curious to hear other opinions on how it could be any less damaging to ones health. What kind of price tag do you put on comfort? Its an interesting question.
the boss man has a cat and its the cream of the crop imo i have run all three of these machines plowing large lots in the winter and out in the rocky mountian woods the cat wins the contest by far
A 955 dozer??? fill me in 955 crawler loader maybe
No rubber tacks in the Hill Contry I own a land clearing co. in your area and I can tell you Don't Run Rubber Tracks in the Texas Hill Country. I run steel tracks over tires. it saves your tires. As far as brand name , my partner ran s320 Bobcat and I run 272C Cat the Cat has more down time.
Do you mean to say that you run a S330 and not a S320?
I have a bobcat s330 if thats the machine your taking about and i demoed it up against a 272c which is a nice machine but i liked the bobcat better.
I currently run a C175 N/H and its great rigid under carriage but the rollers are spaced just right and it is quite smooth. I had a B/C T190K before that the B/C was a great machine but it would beat you to DEATH it rode rough no matter what the terrain and balance was bum heavy so it would ride up an obstacle then slam down, the N/H is evenly weighted and tends to seesaw before it gets the chance to slam down. Recently I ran a CAT 297C for 400hrs it was magnificent as far as comfort goes with the combination of Air ride seat and suspension undercarriage and the sweet cab but the guy who i hired it from said it was sending him broke with the upkeep of the bogey wheels etc. hopefully the 299c style uder carriage cures that issue as far as running cost goes. IMHO it is the airride seat that should get most of the credit when it comes to operator comfort and they should be fitted by all brands. CATS new E/H controls are a step backwards as far as control is concerned they had the best pilots in the business before hopefully they can make it more seamless in the future or else sales will suffer. Just my 2c worth John
Good information john. I currently own a bobcat t190 and the ride is rough as hell on pavement. But on dirt its real good. I agree about the cat mtl being very comfy but those machines you drop money into like its going out of style.
Just to offer some insight, I have a S330 with VTS tracks, a T320 w/ roller suspension and I had, I repeat Had a T320 with the Steel tracks. The steel tracks are very very noisy, incredibly rough and will almost rattle the cab off the machine. The best ride is the S330 with the VTS and the 320 is a very close second. I had a Cat 299C with a mulcher (FAE) and it continuously over heated (Yes the rad etc was clean) and the A/C was warm at best. I currently have in my possession a Supertrak sk140ctlsc a "C" series frame w/ 140hp, a cab pressurizer (Looks real buck shee) and 18" steel tracks. If you can get over the sticker shock ($200K) it seems to work real well.
I think it is great that you like your C175 but you are definitely in the minority. It is way too wide for most, underpowered for its weight, and hydraulically limited by NH for what it can lift. I would put it right behind the T190 for performance. I also suspect you are in the minority in Australia running a NH CTL. Based on what I've heard about the market down there from factory reps I would hazard a guess that NH wouldn't have sold more than 2 dozen of those CTLs down there in the last couple of years. Most would probably also find some humor in the fact that you call the ride "quite smooth". I wish you the best of luck.
I'M STILL WAITING FOR BOBCAT TO COME OUT WITH THE 2 SPEED OPTION FOR THE CTL'S, CAT HAS IT AND TECAUCHI, MY FIRST WAS AND IS A '99 763 THEN AN S250, THEN A T300 PLUS CAT DOZERS AND BACKHOES AND SOON A CAT EXCAVATOR, I HAVE USED A BUNCH OF SKID STEERS DURING THE LAST 10 YEARS, CAT, KOMATSU, GEHL, DEERE, AND BOBCAT, I LIKE BOBCAT THE MOST, THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 50'S BUT IT WOULD BE NICE TO GO 12 MPH IN MY T300........MAYBE ITS JUST ME!!~ CYA! :usa
PA DIRT MOVER First off Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums! There's lots of good info here. But, please don't post in all caps again. It's considered shouting in "netiquette" and is against the forum rules. Thanks, Orchard Ex
sorry, didnt mean it that way, you just caught me off guard.....wont happen again!!~
What about the new BobCat M series 630 I test drove one not long ago really enjoyed it? The Color Display and new Roller Suspension seemed pretty sweet? Ive got friends that are sold on the Takeuchi it seems really jerky to me. I know you can't get any peice of Compact thats all american but at least with the BobCat or the Caterpillar there assembled here. So not only you be buying a good machine helps the Economy a little bit.
ASV.....manufactured in Northern Minnesota :usa
And, like Bobcat, the profits (if realized) now go overseas....
The profits of any publicly traded company go to the shareholders, wherever they happen to live.
Sorry. I forgot again that half the people on this site take everything literally and dissect every statement posted for symmantics, grammar, model number, etc. They are no longer USA owned companies by their primary ownership. Some Toyotas are now built in the US now, but I wouldn't drive off the lot with a great sense of patriotism that I'd bought American.
This has nothing to do with semantics or grammar. It has to do with facts, and the fact is that the location of a company's headquarters has absolutely nothing to do with who owns stock in the company and, therefore, where the profits go. If you want Doosan's profits to come back to America, buy stock and encourage others to do so. It's that simple. It's not that I disagree with the essence of your statement - overseas headquarters means that the high-paying white collar jobs are not here in America and corporate tax isn't paid here. That's part of the reason I take a lot of pride in selling John Deere equipment and would never sell another brand. But it doesn't bolster your argument to base it on a misconception.
No misconception that I see. A difference of opinion perhaps. I prefer to take a larger view than simply who buys shares of stock. Who do you think holds the majority of Doosan stock? It's not your friends and neighbors here in the United States I'd venture to guess, which is pretty much the same thing I said before. The odds of American citizens owning a majority share of Terex or Doosan at anytime in the foreseeable future are nil. Selling any D series skids? Nice machines.
About 1/3 of the Korea Exchange is held by foreign investors. Most people wouldn't know whether or not they hold shares of a foreign company because their investing is done through mutual funds. Emerging markets (of which Korea is one) are some of the places aggressive fund managers like to invest, so there's actually a pretty good chance you and I have a stake in Doosan and other foreign companies and don't even know it. Is it a majority stake? No. But there are many "American" companies in which foreigners are heavily invested. Like I said before, if you want a foreign company's profits to come back to America, buy their stock. And yes, we've sold quite a few D's so far. Everyone who has bought one loves it.
I am looking to upgrade to a more powerful machine than my C175 as I am running a larger hydraulic demand and could do with a little more lift capacity how ever the full size CAT ,TAK ,BOBCAT machines are physically too large. the best compromise I have found so far is the CASE 440ct, TAK 140, any opinions on these choices or any other suggestions?? Cheers John
The 440 is a whole lot of power in a small package. Good machines
any issues to look out for with the case?? the 420 is smaller again with 70 hp are they a good thing
The new series 3 420 is much better than the original 420. I would not consider that machine. If your needing a higher production type machine in this size I would demo the 440. If your duties are more lighter in nature than demo the 420-S3. Check the specs on the two machines and you will see what I mean. The 440 makes 288 foot pounds which for its weight put it on top of the heap for torque in its class the 420 is around 200. The only complaint on the 440 CT is guys burning off the tracks. The machine can spin its tracks at will so you have to use smart operating techniques or you will be buying tracks more often than you should.