2005 Cat 315CL with 9000 hrs. Last fall this noise started. Would only do it when using multiple functions at once, like digging, or extending out to dump. Its a grinding/vibrating type of noise coming from the pump side of the machine. Well, i discovered I had metal in the system, so off to a Cat dealer it went. They put a new pump on. I've just got back to digging with the machine after the long winter up here, and wouldn't you know, that noise is still there at times. I just did an oil sample to keep an eye on my oil and i noticed it was full of air bubbles. Oil level is good. Anyone else see this before? Cat guys seem to be stumped on this. I will also add that the machine has already seemed to be back to its numbness, lacking power performance like it was pre-new pump.
The metal particles you had in your system prior to changing the pump were steel or bronze? Normally, if the previous pump contaminated the circuits after it failed, all the system should have been cleaned / decontaminated as thoroughly as possible (while IMHO it's practically impossible to clean it 100%). Do you know if they did that? Small air bubbles in oil (almost foam-like) should indicate pump cavitation, I guess. Have a look inside the hydraulic oil tank for debris / dirt; change / clean the suction strainer inside the tank (if it has one - a machine s/n would help)... check the inside of the large suction hose from tank to pump inlet... those are the first things that spring to mind. If the change was performed by a Cat dealer, isn't the new pump still covered by warranty?
The pump never failed. I caught it in time, but thru cat sos oil sampling the metal count got high enough for action to be taken. No brass, but mostly Iron. This noise had started 2-300 hrs before pump swap which promted me that something is wrong, hence the oil sampling. The swap was all done by a Cat dealer. They did clean out system the best they could and since I've had the machine back I have a "cleanout" filter in the taink. Yes, the reman pump has a year warranty. Whats the chance this reman is faulty? Or this cavitation issue is what took out the original pump, never got fixed, and now is working on taking out this reman?
The cleanout filter should be changed at least every week. It catches particles that a normal filter can't so it plugs easily. Sometimes those pumps on Cat can be hard to bleed and air in that pump oil or (capitation) will destroy that new pump. Check the tightness of the hose clamps on that big suction hose. If they are not really tight they can suck air there. I have seen them loose enough to suck air but not leak oil. Like the other guy said. "A plugged suction screen" can cause air bubbles to form. You need to stop running it until its fixed or you will ruin the pump very quickly.
From my experience, I've seen numerous Cat Reman double pumps on excavators working for thousands of hours after install. IMHO, the chance that your reman pump is faulty, is minimal. The problem should most probably be somewhere else in the system, and more likely on the inlet side of the pump. Perhaps you should ask the Cat dealer that performed the swap, if they inspected the inside of the tank / the suction screen / the suction line from tank to pump. I'm not particularily familiar with the hydraulics of any Cat 315 generation, but after a brief look, both the return & suction filters should be located inside the hydraulic tank. My first guess would be to have a REALLY thorough look at both of them, especially the suction screen (I suspect the "cleanout" element is installed at the return port, but I also suspect that the return filter should have a bypass valve to shunt it in case it becomes excessively clogged). Again, a machine s/n would, maybe, help...
S/N CJC02484 Thanks for insight. I know they inspected the tank at the time of the pump swap and everything looked good. They actually did not find any metal in there. The metal they did find was on the case drain from the pump.
Thanks for the insight. I have just over 40 hours on the cleanout filter and was going to pull it tomorrow. Here is another thing i have noticed. I normally dig with the throttle on 8(out of 10). The other day it was getting boggy and making the cavitation type noise quite often. So i turned the throttle to 9, tried 10 and there was no difference in engine rpm from 9 to 10. but anyway, at 9, there was a big difference in performance and no more cavitation noise. I run it today for a few hours, all on 9, and there was no noise and machine run as it should. Is there something to this?
This would not account for the on again off again vibration but there is a rubber drive coupler where the pump fits to the flywheel housing. That isn't loose there is it? When we changed the pump out on our 318BL a couple of years ago, we changed our coupler at the same time.
Well Sir if you see bubbles. That is cavitation and will cause it to make noise. The engine not reving to 10 more than likely means the throttle motor needs to be calibrated. That isn't hard. Your Cat dealer or even someone on this forum could email the steps to you. The faster you run that engine, the more oil that pump moves so, the more power and speed you get. I assume you run it on 8 to save fuel? You may find, if you run the engine on 10 (once you fix the throttle) you will get more work done, faster thus, saving you fuel. As far as the cavitation stopping at higher rpm? Generally, the faster you run the engine, the nastier the cavitation sound gets. Could the higher engine speed be drowning the pump sounds out? Do the things I said earlier. If it doesn't stop. You may need Cat to come look at it while its still under their repair warranty. I have known Cat mechanics that did not know a piston style hydraulic pump like yours needs to have the pump case filled with oil and the air bled from the output side of the pump. Not all Cat dealers have dealer grade mechanics working for them.
r20d12, the higher engine rpm could be covering the cavitating noise, but I'm really doubting it. And I will restate this, the cavitating noise only occured when i would dig hard, using mutiple functions at once. Or extending out to dump out a full bucket. Other wise it would sound normal during other functions. If its cavitating for some reason, would it do it all the time while running or when its really calling for oil during the two movements like i described? Do you think I would see bubbles in my site glass? It seems normal. I will also restate, this cavitating noise was occuring about 300 hours before my pump went. So i'm leaning on that i had this problem before which may have taken out my pump. I told Cat about the noise but didn't seem to concerned.
The pump like you have is called a "variable" displacement" pump. Output is based on how much hydraulic flow you ask for with your controls in the cab. So, the more you make the pump do. The more the pistons will pump and the louder it will cavitate. You have a great point about the root cause not being repaired. just the pump that failed. I know oil is expensive but not as much as that pump. I never take the suction line off at the tank when I change a pump unless, I suspected an issue with the suction side. Its been a few years since I've changed a pump on your model hoe. If the suction hose connects to a bolt on neck under the bottom of the tank. The O ring could be bad. If it just clamps on a steel tube then the hose clamp could be loose. I would go through the whole suction side and check everything. I've seen a new Cat reman pump destroyed in 2 days because the Cat tech didn't know he needed to bleed the pump. I got to supervise him while he installed the other $18,000 pump. Track hoe problems can be very technical which is why they are my favorite thing to work on. If the cavitation is caused by air in the suction side. Then yes. It could show air in the sight glass. If the pump wasn't bled properly. It won't put air in the tank because air trapped in the pump is causing the noise. You could go through the pump bleed procedure but you need to be very carefull to bleed all hydraulic pressure first. Or you can be severely injured by hydraulic injection. I hope this helps. Its hard to imagine what could be wrong with a machine when other people have touched it before I did.
Might be a good idea to change your pump suction hose. I call it a suction hose but piston pumps can't actually "suck" oil. Atmospheric pressure "pushes" the oil into the intake on the pump.... I just thought of something worth checking. Some older trackhoe's use an electric air pump to pressurize the hydraulic tank. If that pump stops, it can cause your issue. I Dont have access to that information though.
I had to replace the pump on my '03 315 CLC at about 6,000 hours. All oil was replaced but no "catch" filter was employed. My pump did not fail, nor make funny noises. It had a minor, intermittent oil leak on the pump itself. I was told no Cat re-man available for this machine and had to buy a brand new pump (I was also told that rebuild would cost more than new pump). New Cat pump was $7k and no funny noises. Total quote (including R&R) was $8,800. Once done they tried to get me to pay $14k. No calls to say they found something beyond original quote, no warning. After we picked it up I got a call to talk about the bill. I was at the store within 15 minutes. Three computer screens were lit up, and spread sheets were on display, in the service writer's office. All to demonstrate to me how I was getting a fantastic deal by paying $6k more than the quote! What a bunch of great guys they are over there!! Cat pump had a little leak (just like the old one). Cat dealer came next day to verify (leak was noticed within 5 hours of use) and offered to rebuild. My pump leaks= me buying new pump; New Cat pump (their pump) leaks= rebuild....Cat is not what it once was. They try to sell you with claims of superior customer support but, in my experience, the only thing they deliver is lip service. How unfortunate. I used to bleed Cat yellow because I used to see great value in Cat (part of which was superior service). I have also had a bad service experience with a thumb repair (and ultimately replacement) since the pump experience. Ultimately it cost them, so far, my latest excavator purchase. I ended up buying a Deere 245G instead of the 323F Cat wanted me to buy. I paid more for the Deere as well! I digress.... Sounds to me like you are getting cavitation when you are asking for lots of oil. I would not be surprised if you have an issue with your rebuilt Cat pump though.
Well this noise was occuring at about the same rate its does now with the new reman, as it did with original. No doubt it makes this noise when calling for most oil, but doesn't seem to be something with the pump. An update is that my original pump was not the culprit for the metal in the hydro oil. Come to find out it was my mulching attachment, which by the way, i had Cat eliminate that as a source by taking motor off mulcher, but i guess they didn't look close enough.
Something I suspected of originally seems more likely with that information. I wonder if you have debris in the pump control circuit and the pump may not be stroking/de-stroking correctly. I would think it possible to also have debris in one, or more, of the relief valves as well. Another clue that would support that theory would be an increase in oil temp.
My oil temp has been running a bar or two higher than i always remember it running at, even during cool weather. Thanks for this insight, I will look into this. I want to add that the noise is more frequent when the oil was at max temp. Yesterday was a hot day here and when i dug, the noise was happening.
Update: So I replaced the Main relief valve and adjusted the PRV which was way off. Not sure what one helped the most, but the machine performs more like it should. I still however still get a short, vibrating type noise when i dig hard, but much better than it was.
That's interesting to hear. It sounds like the relief valves may be the issue, or at least a contributing factor. Based on what you last posted I would think it would be worthwhile to disassemble the relief valves and clean them. Adding tension to the relief stack may have helped but the debris may still be in there. This may be why you had to adjust the relief valve. If this theory is correct you may be able to eliminate all the vibration and noise once everything is all cleaned out. Im also wondering if you are still using the "clean-out" filters and/or if you have been cutting them open to see of you are still catching debris in the system.
I do have a special "clean out" filter in the tank. I just did another oil sample and should next week the results. When you talk of the relief valves do you mean the PRV's? Wouldn't those be new and clean with the new pump? Yesterday i had a couple hours in which it was a bit noisy. There is no question now the "noise" comes when using multiple functions, but at same time bucket in or out. I don't think i get that noise with any other combination. For example, with a heaped bucket i can swing, boom down, and stick out to move to dump the bucket, all is fine. But as soon as I open the bucket to dump, there is the noise. And the same for digging. All the motions fine, then the last curl of the bucket, there is the noise. This is not all the time, but most prevalent in those two motions. Maybe this will help pinpoint.
Sounds like you use warren cat in Poteau ok? They treat people the exact same way
Ok, after all this noise stuff and the new pump thinking that was the metal in the oil producer, I am back to square one. Still have iron showing up in the hydro oil. Eliminated my attachment and the priority valve. Valve bank, cylinders?? I need help.
Similar level as before? How is your swing brake working? Iron could be from wear there. Any tracking issues in low or hi speed?
About twice the level of Iron. We might be thinking when I changed the main relief, it could have released some particles that were hung up around the valve. Make sense? My guy also noticed the main relief was set a bit high and was "slammin" the pump. Swing brake. Is that in the swing drive motor? No tracking issues. Tested pressures on the drives and looked good.
UPDATE: So we have narrowed down the metal to the case drain side and really thinking the mulcher attachment. Although there is a fair amount of blow-by on the case of the swing motor, but no visible metal in the oil. But in the meantime we have noticed the engine rpm bog down as you operate. I have changed fuel filters and even checked the little screen in the line before the pump. The fuel delivery side seems clean but it just seems the engine just cannot keep up, especially when digging hard. According to the computer's rpm, it drops from 2200 to 1800 when digging hard. I also am thinking this is maybe why I'm getting this certain noise that I have written in earlier posts. Anyone have some ideas on where I should go from here?
The pump in controlled partially by hydraulic pressure and partially by the computer. The hydraulic portion is not precise. If the computer controlled part has stopped working. The pump will stroke so much that it will bog down or kill the engine. Do you have any codes? The blowby on your swing motor means it needs to be rebuilt.
The PRV is working and no codes. Do you have the spec on how much blow-by on the swing motor?
No but typically blow by or rather case drain is very low. If its coming out like a fire hose its way too much. I tried to keep the description of the pump working very simple. But if you know "PRV" then ill get more technical. How do you know its working? The only way to know for sure is with a pressure gauge. The pressure shown in the monitor is only a calculated pressure and is not accurate enough for diagnostics. Also, the PRV coil as well as the signal to it needs to be checked with a volt meter.
I don’t know CATs but your slight bogging down issues could be caused by miss adjusted swash plate angle sensor ( provided your pumps have those ), I had one JD excavator that did the same because RPM sensors wire insulation rubbed through and was shorting to ground, didn’t set the code but was giving wrong info to computer about how fast engine was turning. PD sensor can give off wrong signal too. These newer machines when they not bogging down hard, it is usually calibration thing. Since you recently replaced pump I would suspect angle sensor calibration first.
They Dont have angle sensors. Negative flow strokes the swash plate first then ECM watches engine rpm fall. At a certain point, ECM tells PRV to take over and hold swashplate at the right angle to provide maximum flow for the current situation. The only sensors involved are engine speed and powershift pressure. He is right. Engine speed sensor sending a wrong but still believable signal to the ECM can cause it though. I forgot. Its been about 10 years since I had it happen.
Thanks r20d12, thanks for educating me, like I said I don’t know CATs. So it is negcon flow control with power shift, can you tell me what pump is on that machine? K3V buy any chance?
No idea what pump. I've worked on every series Cat hoe since the B models. They are controlled by 3 things. 1 Cross sensing which is how the pumps hydraulicly communicate. 2 Negative flow which is a very course signal to the swash plates and 3 powershift which is actually a computer controlled hydraulic signal which uses oil from the pilot circuit for fine control of the swash plates
Sounds exactly like K3V with 9N option. Negcon. Total horsepower control, and variable horsepower control. Although could be some other brand!
Thanks for the input and discussion here. r20d12, we did use a pressure gauge to adjust the PRV and it certainly seems like it was communicating. We actually we as far as disconnecting the plug at the PRV solinoid then tried operating the machine which we found out very fast that it was communicating when plug in lol. The blow-by on the swing motor case drain when machine is at idle, but swing motion in stall the oil was coming out probably a gallon every 10 seconds or so. So getting back to the engine issue. I'll add this again, which i may have said this earlier in the thread. There is no rpm change from throttle position 9 to 10. I would think there should be and i wonder if this is in someway related to this communication thing you guys talk about. We did get the computer to run a rpm calibration and it said it was a success, but no change.
The max rpms might be restricted by the mode you’re in. Check if you in general work mode.
Sometimes bogging down issue not hydraulic but engine related, restricted air and fuel passages, lower compression etc. You running newer pump which provide more flow the previous “tired” one, on the same engine. Also check your turbo pressure.
I didn’t get the swing motor thing, you stalled out swing motor and try to swing? Can you clarify again please?!
Stalling out is what i call digging the bucket into the ground so it cannot swing left or right, then trying to swing one way and holding it there at low idle. This machine does not have modes. It has a throttle dial 1-10. TVA, your correct on the bogging issue being engine related. We have eliminated some of the possible fuel issues, but with 9100 hours, the engine could be just tired? Also, this is why i'm on here to get some insight from others who have seen this or something similar.
Yes that’s what I thought, just needed to clarify, high case drain flow is not good, but if it is work OKish than just keep working. The only thing is would be worried about that comes with high case drain flow is overheating. Do a stall test again and measure the temperature of swing motor if it’s close too 200*F than it’s too much. Tuning oil more then 160*F deteriorates the oil and changes chemical structure to compounds aggressive to seals and gaskets and in a long run bronze valve and lates and piston shoes.
9000 hours is a good amount of hours, if you really want to know check the compression, and turbo boost to specs. Especially if that engine is inter cooled, inter coolers have tendency to crack and hoses, clamps and pipes can leak to, I had one of the intercooler pipes rub through hole once before.
Compression can't be checked if that has an actual Cat engine because they use "keystone" piston rings. Did powershift pressure change when operating or did it stay the same. It should change. What engine is in it? I had one about 10 years ago that kicked my butt. Engine bogged down. Everything I checked was fine. Didn't have excess smoke so I thought it couldn't be the turbo. After running out of ideas, I checked turbo boost. It was zero! Pulled intake boot and turbo was locked up. The electronics were preventing too much fuel from being injected so I didn't have excess smoke. I got in trouble for missing that one because I was a senior tech. Lol
Can you educate me on keystone piston rings? Please! I don’t know that?! Appreciate in advance!
Pretty sure case drain is supposed to be checked at high idle but you did it right! Either stall it in the ground or install the shipping pin/frame lock. If it comes out fairly slow your ok.
Sure! A cross section on a normal piston ring in square and the piston ring to cylinder wall seal is accomplished by the "springiness" (Lol) of the piston ring. A keystone ring cross section has a kind of "L" shape with the bottom of the L facing the piston. They are still springy but they dont fully seal until the cylinder fires. Then the explosion gets caught in that space between the piston and the ring. Momentarily forcing the ring outward for a good seal. It can't seal without the explosion so a compression test won't really tell you anything. Cat gives a spec for the piston ring groove during rebuild because if the groove is too wide. Your new keystone rings won't be forced out due to blow by. I built engines at a Cat dealer for a while and they had go/no go guages for the various engines. If the gage went i too far. The piston had to be replaced
Thanks! Looks like to find out “health “ if this engine you need to run full blown Dyno!
Thanks! You know I started my business after I moved from another state not even a year ago, but I didn’t have a single customer with CAT or Volvo, I get Kobelcos and Deere/ Hitachi, and forum full of people with CAT problems, I guess local CAT dealer very good!
I did a compression test on a C6.6 because the customer insisted. I had to make stuff to do it. There is no published spec. You could see compression though it was really low. I think if all the rings were broke on a cylinder or you had a badly gaulded cylinder you could see it. But Cat says you can't check it
Must be! What state? Im positive its NOT eastern Oklahoma
AL, down by the water, I’ve herd more horror storries how people gone screwed out of their money then I can remember. I newer worked in my field before full time, only did a side jobs, never went to college or had formal edge in my field either! I still learn, but from what I see that most of dealer’s technicians only know how to read flow charts and replace components on the whim! They don’t want or can’t think! But I want them keep doing what they do - so I can grow my business!
Its really terrible what passes for a tech now. I had no formal schooling other than life and some cranky old farts that took me under their wing. What's funny is the old farts were my age I am now! Lol. Im off for a while right now but always loved hydraulic and electronic troubleshooting! Havent worked for Cat in over 3 years but their field guys and some old customers still call me. Reading flow charts didn't help me. I got more from just studying the schematics. Now Cat wants you to use the flow chart. If you call the technical department some of them will ask what you got in step 5. Lol. I always take notes so I could sometimes look up that step and find the answer fast enough to make them think I read their drivel.
Its been years but I had a guy show me how to tweak the pump so it pulled the engine down to full load. Then you could Dyno it in the machine. With laptop. Cylinders can be cut out under a load without running hydraulics through the relief and chance overheating the oil.
Can you share the secret what you did to check the IMHO if you can’t read diagrams - you have no business being Tech. Flow charts is OK for general directions but sometimes they take more time. Sometimes you read something in them and it’s just stupid! See I have to deal with manuals badly interpreted from Japanese or Korean or German, sometimes I’m smoking from my ears because they each manufacturer uses different terms and sometimes it can lots of things - but you have to know exactly what it means, not to screw up and cost y
Does it involve reprogramming TVC that it will load engine to a full load but not bogg it down all the way?
To check compression or tweaking the pump? I think it was the horsepower screw but I honestly can't remember. That was 2005 ish
I still don’t have a laptop, but working toward paying $7500 for TEXA because I have to work on all kinds of brands. For right now it’s all older equipment. And tell you frankly when people ask I just suggest rebuilding old ones for simple reason- cost of parts and repair on emissions, all the savings the get from more efficient hydraulics gets eaten up by emissions. Although you can buy a delete kits, but then you have electronics which go bad and average cost of one controller is $4000, and you have 3-4-5 of them in one machine.
No. It was just a pump screw that moved the swashplate enough to pull the engine down to the desired speed. That guy was amazing. Was a mechanic then a T.C. then a Cat instructor. I was a fairly new employee at that dealer and that guy didn't know me beforehand but I was told to call him because I was stumped. He was driving down the road while telling me what screws to turn on the pump and explaining how the pump should react if everything was ok. He asked for directions to the machine and met me there with a flow meter the next morning. He had to drive across the state to get to me. He had it troubleshot in 20 minutes and spent the next 8 hours giving me a private trackhoe class. All because I didn't sound like an idiot on the phone. And took me out for supper with his company card!
But IMHO CRD diesel without emissions would be one ass kicking, fuel saving son of a buck!
Nice! I hope I’ll meet someone like him someday!
Very true. try. diesellaptops.com they have all the different computer gizmos. My friend bought Cat program from them and its no different than what the dealer has. The only thing he has not tried is flashing an ECM but it is supossed to. That is something the customer version from Cat won't let you do. That website has great free tech support for the programs they sell
I’m not sure but I think - they are TEXA dealer.
The Cat systems are very picky. Refilling fuel filters and running out of fuel are two things that will fry a set of their common rail injectors. The lowest hours I replaced a set was 800 hours because they prefilled filters. It was not warranty lol
It’s unbelievable how many different adapters I have to buy to work on this stuff, sometimes I envy dealer techs because they deal only with one brand. And some of these Japanese or European adapters will cost you arm, leg and kidney!
Cummins have high pressure pumps going bad filling lube system with very fine particles and eating crankshafts, but it’s all “growing pains”!
Used to work on alot of Volvo A25C and A35C machines. Their electrical seemed to mess up at 2000 hours. Their books were different. First time I ever got told to turn something "anti clockwise" Its possible but you have to stand on your head!
Haven’t had a chance to work on Volvo heavy equipment but their trucks just **** me off! Especially wiring! No other brand I know can loose connectivity on the wire deep inside the harness without any reason like smashing, bumping or yanking on it, even Mack’s with Volvo engines don’t have that problem!
Older D12th was a good engine! I knew one that had 2 million miles and still ran OK! Lower torque ( just little more than DD-60 ) almost non existent engine break - but other than that it was pretty good cranker!
I hate working on trucks! They get a valve cover leak and won't bring it to the shop until its dripping off the mud flaps and a burned up clutch