sn PAB06638 Engine SN MAE05872 AR No. (arrangement) 2870092 "Engine coolant temp is high" I got this message today after about an hour of working with the CAT to dredge out our pond. The last 2 times I checked the fluid level in the radiator (I check at start of every day I work the machine), the level has been low in the radiator...at first just below the inner core...today it took about 1/2 gallon to bring the level up to the top of the core...about 1 inch below the filler neck. I have also noticed that the overflow reservoir has been OVER full lately. I warmed the CAT up this AM and then turned it off to check for leaks...no leaks found, hoses all dry. There was a ticking/bubbling sound coming from the coolant overflow tank...a regular cadence. I removed the hose and confirmed it was bubbling into to reservoir. While working the CAT today, I glanced at the ECU, about an hour into work, and saw 3 flashing red lights across the top of the ECU and the message, "Engine coolant temp is high". The yellow bars on the gauge were maxed out. No engine stutters or diminished power but just the message. I shut the machine off, checked for leaks...none. But, the coolant overflow reservoir was overflowing...looks like radiator coolant was overflowing into the coolant tank but not being returned. What is the likely issue? Thermostat not opening and coolant getting too hot...then expanding out and into the reservoir? I replaced the engine temp sensor last year and the radiator cap...also cleaned out the radiator fins a few months ago...they were pretty clogged with dust. All good until now. I am looking thru my recently received Service Manual for info (thanks, Nige, for the lead to the used ebay manual). My plan right now is to take enough water out to the CAT to fill the radiator, once it cools off, and drive it up onto the dam...out of the pond bottom. I'll have better access that way. Here is what the Service Manual tells me so far:
pages from manual did not post...here they are:
I would verify that its actually getting hot before doing anything else. I would also gauge over a few days what kind of coolant loss you have and is it consistent with your run times.
"I would verify that its actually getting hot before doing anything else. " The temp gauge today started "cool" and incremented up to "normal". I did not dig into the ECU to see if it reports an actual numerical temperature. Is the high temp stored? Do I need an IR heat gun to shoot temps next time I start it? Any recommendations on a Lowes or Home Depot IR gun to get?
"I would also gauge over a few days what kind of coolant loss you have and is it consistent with your run times." Today it seems I lost enough coolant, thru the reservoir, that it caused an "overheat" message. I'll know more when I go back later today to refill the radiator. Is a test of the thermostat to remove it and run it without a thermostat?
Yes. Even somerthing cheap will work They are usually reasonably accurate. No.
Bad wording on thermostat test by me...I know you test it by putting it in water and heating it, etc. But...wondering if running the CAT with no thermostat might be beneficial to getting the CAT up on the dam with less chance of overheating. I am assuming right now that the thermostat is the issue. It could also be a head gasket I have read.
The thermostat is a flow regulator. Running without one will push the coolant through the radiator too fast and will cause an overheat issue in itself
Got it...thanks. Picking up an IR gun tonight. I'll fill the radiator and test things in the AM.
I think I have a blown head gasket. I got back to the CAT this afternoon...took water and added less than a gallon to the radiator and it was full. And the reservoir/overflow was empty...the radiator had sucked the water back in when it cooled down. I started the CAT with the rad cap off. I tracked about 50 yards as the engine warmed up and got the CAT up the bank and out of the pond bottom (Hurricane Debby last week filled the pond overnight...where I am working was under about 4 feet of water a week ago). Once I got the machine up on the pond bank I looked at the radiator...lots of bubbles, white foam at the radiator neck. The oil still looks good...very dark, no evidence of water in the oil. Then I checked the starboard side of the engine (opposite side from radiator)...and saw this (video below). We had noted a very small leak here when we bought the machine...it's been dormant since. I was able to track the CAT back to the shop. The engine temp never got past "6".
I can't tell from the video but is there a freeze plug there on that head?
Not sure...I'll look closer. I thought they were only on a block. I'll see.
It does have a freeze plug in that head. But it looked to me like the bubbling was at the base of the head where it meets the block surface. It's a pretty tight fit in there so I'll take any suggestions you've got to diagnose it better.
Maybe the best way of telling if there is an internal leak somewhere in the cooling system would be to pressurize it with something like THIS (other brands are available) and see if it holds pressure.
^what he said
Looks like a head gasket to me
From all the bubbling in rad and from looking at the video I would say head gasket also. I had one of these do that before and got away with just replacing the gasket. There are 2 heads on these.
Thanks, mobiletech... It makes sense to me that it's a head gasket also. We first noticed the small bubbles at the head when we bought the machine. I got a quote back then on getting a head job done from Yancey. But it has been running right along with no problem until now. I think the liquid under pressure over time has eroded the gasket. I'm afraid of having a catastrophic blowout... Especially if I'm back in the pond when it blows out . I read through the service manual and noticed it has two heads also. That's a new one on me. I'm leaning towards getting both gaskets replaced since I'm sure they're original.. 18 years old. Hopefully the heads are still good. They cost $1500 for each head. I am headed to Yancey now to discuss the process of getting it fixed. Here is the video from 2 years ago and now
I had the machine hauled into Yancey this morning... they just sent their evaluation to me... Yancey Valdosta Shop Service: 0PAB06638, Mr. Gary, We have your machine in the shop and have determined the heads to be blowing compressions from under the gaskets. We will get you a quote worked up and sent to you. Thank you!
They have replaced the head gaskets...heads were ok. Just as they were getting ready to button it up they did a double check on the turbo and found some rubber particles and debris in the manifold where the turbo mounts. Mechanic said they could spin the turbo by hand and hear bearing sounds coming out of it so it's going to have to be replaced. Replacement cost for turbo has come in at about $2,700. I've given them the okay because it's at CAT and we just have to get it done. I can look online and see turbos for $400 to $700. But I haven't found one yet that seems to be directly what I need. Is $2,700 realistic price for a cat 320C, 3066 engine turbo replacement?
FTR...when I look up the turbo in the CAT parts site it is $2781.00 on their site..."no remans available" per CAT mechanic. 279-7860: Turbo Gp Turbocharger Brand: Cat $2,781.18 USD
These are the picts from CAT:
There is no Reman quoted for 279-7860. The only cheaper option via Cat might possibly be a cartridge provided that the compressor and turbine housings are both still good. 5I-7589 is the number for a cartridge and there is no Reman available for it either.
Thanks, Nige. I have felt like these guys are straight shooters all along...good advice and their work is good. I think the turbo will arrive and be installed Monday. My plan is to get it back Tuesday and start using it again. They are supposed to do analysis of all fluids...I will share that when I have it.
Yancey CAT got the heads replaced. When they did their run test there was still bubbling at same area of block/head. They had sent the heads to a specialist shop for eval and they were fine...no milling needed. They retorqued the heads yesterday and cranked again...still has a leak at starboard side of head and also the other side of the same head/block. They are now checking to see if a thicker head gasket is available. What is left? Doesn't that mean the block surface might be warped? And how would that happen? The service manager said they checked the block for "flat" with a straight edge and it showed OK.
Just got this word from Yancey "We checked the block deck today and was within spec no issue found we are reassembling tomorrow with new head gaskets will let you know once re installed" I'm hoping they just had a bad head gasket.
CAT put another set of head gaskets on and ran the engine yesterday. This AM they re-torqued the heads and ran it again...they still have leaks between block and head...several. Their head experienced mechanic double checked the crush ring on the gasket, did the torquing himself and re-checked the block..the block is true...smooth, flat. The heads were tested/checked and they are good. He is stumped, says he has never seen one do this in lots of years of rebuilding these engines...learned from his father. They have reached out to the CAT-Yancey specialists for input. Those guys asked for a video of what is occurring so they should have sent that to CAT gurus today. The local mechanic here said one of the other long time mechanics down here (Valdosta, GA) saw a similar situation years ago...the block was TOO smooth...they had to mill the block surface so the gasket could get some 'bite' when it was torqued down. That requires removing the engine to get the block milled...way more expensive than I want to think about. If the specialists say the block needs to be milled I asked the mechanic what an alternative might be. He suggested the possibility of using a gasket sealer on the surface between the block and head gasket. Have you guys got input? I thought it was going to be a simple check the block, check the heads, valves, seats, and install a new head gasket. Test run it and then give it back to me to use. It has been almost 6 weeks that the CAT has been in the shop.
Head gasket goes on dry, bolts get oiled and torqued to 87lb/ft, engine gets run to operating temperature, then cooled, then bolts retorqued.
Great info...thanks. Mine is a 3066...two heads. I assume they followed those specs/procedures you sent...they are CAT. They did the dry gasket install as your info shows. I assume they used the method you show to check the block...they said it was within specs. He said they did the proper sequence on torquing head bolts and on the re-torque the next day, he got a little bit more turn on some bolts. I'm at a loss...waiting to hopefully get more feedback tomorrow from the CAT specialists that CAT mechanics appeal to when things are not normal.
Sorry, I never finished this thread...I was deep into the foxhole during this whole process and finally catching up. After removing the head 3 times, CAT checked with all their specialists (in and out of the CAT world...other heavy equipment shops) and said some blocks were too smooth to get a good seal. They put the last gasket on with Permatex (I think was the brand) and said, "see what it does." If it still leaked, the CAT solution was to do a "long block", to replace the block. That would probably cost more than the CAT was worth. Anyway, I got it back, got it hot and there IS still a slight leak, same place as originally. That was about 4 months ago. I have been running it, monitoring and all seems OK now...just some very light discoloration on that side of the block. We'll see how she goes. Thanks everyone for all the input.