Looking for advice on changing out a Cat 3208 non-turbo in a 1979 International 1900 single axle dump truck with Allison MT653 auto trans. This will be an outside, spring time project. Background: This is basically an off road, farm use vehicle. Bad engine has a hole in the block. Have a donor engine from a later model Ford cab over with manual transmission. Bad engine is a 40 series, front sump and the donor engine is a 51Z series rear sump. Rough measurements look like the rear sump will clear the axle. I have some generic manuals, but nothing explaining how to change out the engine. Truck has a front PTO Questions: What things should I be especially careful of? Should I remove the radiator completely? How does the transmission separate from engine? Any problems keeping the rear sump? How difficult would it to be to change oil pan and pick up tube from rear to front sump?
Anyone have any suggestions?
Spring is just around the corner and the weather is making me think of spring. Even just some generic how-to would be appreciated. Anyone have any input?
When you get the bad motor out take the oil pan and sump setup off and put it on the donor engine. It SHOULD bolt right up, just make sure and inspect everything as your doing it. Take the hood and radiator off and go lean them up against a wall somewhere so they're completely out of the way and not at risk for damage. I pull the entire power train when I do a swap (meaning I leave the tranny hooked to the engine). The tranny is easy to swap to the donor engine when its out on the ground. There should be about 12 bolts around the bell housing of the tranny where it bolts to the flywheel housing of the engine, take these out after you unbolt the torque converter. I'm not sure how its set up but it should have bolts that you can get to through an access cover on the tranny and roll the crankshaft over to remove each bolt so the torque converter will seperate from the flywheel and stay on the input shaft of the tranny. It really depends on what you have to work with, I have a service truck with a crane so I just pick the whole thing out. You may have to put a jack under the tranny and a cherry picker on the engine or something. Just be safe whatever you do, don't get under a suspended load for any reason. I'll help any way I can.
Guess I should've put those directions in chronological order but hopefully you'll get the picture.
I'd agree with Dmax that changing the oil pans over is the way to go. Both engines are 3208 (despite the prefix difference) so the basic block should be the same. If you PM me both of the engine Serial Numbers I can dig right down to exactly what the differences are between the two. Also be careful when you're changing the oil pan over from one engine to the other to see if you have to move the oil pump pickup pipe to suit the new oil pan arrangement or maybe you might have to use the pipe from your existing engine. Now moving or changing the oil pickup pipe is one thing, but if the oil pumps themselves are different then I would be VERY CAREFUL about using the pump from your busted engine. You never know, an issue with the oil pump may well have caused the engine to fail in the first place. If there is no alternative than to fit the pump from the original engine then at least get it stripped down, checked, and if necessary overhauled first.
Thanks for the responses. There appears to be about equal clearance for the sumps to clear the front axle and the exhaust looks like it will clear, is there any other problems with leaving the rear sump on the donor engine? (I guess why do they have both other than clearance to the front axle? The rear sump truck does sit lower in the rear where the other truck set more level, where maybe its an oil pick up issue) I ask cause of breaking the seal of the oil pan plus the oil pump, tube and pan swapping might be a little of a challenge. But I don't want to reinvent the wheel so to speak. 02Dmax- sounds like its easier to disconnect the trans mounts?, yoke? and linkage than it is to try to get to all those bolts. I know it has an access opening in the bottom of the ?bellhousing? so this may be where I can unbolt the torque converter. The oil pan on the bad engine is badly pitted so I was hoping to reuse the donor pan. It sounds like there's no chance I could rotate the pan and oil pump/tube. As far a lifting I plan on using my backhoe/loader. Nige- I have the s/n off the donor but I can't find it on the bad engine. I even pulled the insulation and shield behind the starter to check the block and there where nothing. I was thinking this may indicate is was rebuilt by one of the previous owners. Is there any other way I could get identifying info from it? Yeah good advice on the oil pump check if I need to use the bad engines pump.
Hi scout the only way to get to the oil pump on a 3208 is to remove the timming gear cover from the front of engine. so checking your pump isnt really an option. Id spent the money for a new pan gasket and change over the sump and pan to your donor very easy to do . the pan may look like it will clear axle but if its close to the axle and loading the truck will make it closer to axle one bump in the road and you might be smashin the pan
^^^^what he said^^^^ there's a reason IH put that oil pan on there the way they did. Even if it is pitted, if it still holds oil, I'd reuse the one for the application. And yes, I take the tranny mounts loose, disconnect the driveline, and any linkage you've got there then pull the whole works out, those bolts will be easier to get at once its sitting out on the ground.
PAcattech- it sounds like the oil pump is up in the engine a bit and not in the oil pan so I can keep the donor engines pump. How is the pick up tube attached and can it be loosened with the oil pan removed? 02dmax & PAcattech- Is there a chance I could rotate the donor engines oil pan and pick up tube? What are good points to attach to the engine/trans assembly for lifting?
You are going to have to change the flywheel over. Be sure to mark the flywheel and the convertor so when you bolt it back up you are using the same mounting holes. Over time the flywheel may have a slight warp and the convertor has matched the warp. When you mount the flywheel to the new engine be sure to check the runout.
I'm going to throw a wrench in the works and suggest you sell that 3208 and find an IH 466 to put in there. The 466 is a much better, much more reliable engine and smokes less as well. It shouldn't be hard to find one that bolts right in to your application. The 3208 has always confused me, I'm really surprised that Caterpillar would put their name on such a piece of junk!
OSB- you mean flex plate right? You mentioned torque converter so I think you do. SF- I am at best a 'replicating type home mechanic' and not good at fabricating. I would entertain the 3208 to 466 swap if it's not too difficult. The 466 is an inline 6 so I would think it is longer for starters and also the truck has a front pto. Would there be any modifications to make? What would be a good match for the 210 hp and non-turbo CAT?
Scout, it ought to be a bolt in with the right parts. It's such a plentiful engine it shouldn't be too hard to find a donor truck of the same model as yours. You may need to swap doghouse covers, maybe not. I'm actually surprised to hear of an IH of that vintage with a 3208, that truck is more rare than a 466 model. The 3208 was discontinued in 1999, eventually as these things blow up parts will become harder and more expensive to find, while the 466 continues in production today. If it were my truck that's the move I'd be making.
You are right, got my terminology mixed up, flywheel will have to come off and flexplate put on. It's always a good idea to put used stuff back in the same location as it came off. May not be a problem but why risk it? If you are going the 466 route, be sure that you can use your old flexplate or can get one that matches your convertor. The other folks are right, the 3208 was a problem and parts are getting scarce. The 466 a much better choice.
when I read the thread my first thought was "466" but didnt want to make things harder than need be. haha. If you stick to the 3208 swap -- no, you cannot just rotate the oil pickup tube thats already on the donor engine, you'll have to take the pickup tube off the original engine, it just unbolts as far as I know. Been awhile since I've been into one. I don't know if the pan can be swapped end for end or not, but it is possible that you could remove the pan from the donor engine and bolt it back on with the deep part at the opposite end, You'll just have to look at it and see. The 466 is basically a bulletproof engine thats very reliable and easy to find parts for and work on. That being said, its up to you to decide if you even need something like that. If it stays off road and gets used little, its possible that you'll get along just fine with the 3208. If it was going to be out on the road working for a living, I would be telling you to use the 3208's for boat anchors and find a DT466. just my 2 cents.
almost forgot, the engine should have lifting eyes bolted to the front and back of it soemwhere but by now its possible that they're long gone. I would attach a lifting eye to the front of each head if possible that way it stabilizes the load. Put a floor jack or tranny jack under the tranny. pick up the front with your backhoe, jack up the tranny with the jack and roll it forward until you can get a lifting eye on the back of the heads or on one of the top transmission mounting bolts, then you can lift it out.
Thanks for the input everyone. I'll check into the 466 swap, but I just use the truck as off road/farm use now, not sure down the road. I have noticed online, used 466's are turbo charged, is this a problem since mine was not? What would be a good 466 year/model/hp to look for? The donor 3208 is the 51Z series that I understand had improvements over the earlier versions (32 & 40 ?) my bad engine is one of them. I think an extra ring and heavier connecting rods?? or something like that, but still no sleeves. The donor only has 51K miles on it and was used in a 1985 municipal water truck, I purchased the truck with title from the original owner and talked with the shop supervisor that was there when it was purchased. If I were looking in junk yards and all being similar then it seems the switch might not be too bad, but with what appears to be a good original engine it's a tough decision.
As others have said, the 3208 was not the best motor Cat produced. In actual fact it was a joint project between Cat and Ford to produce a cheap DISPOSABLE engine of compact dimensions for military applications. The concept was for a motor that was replaced as a whole rather than repaired. With no disrespect intended, Scout, it seems that your mechanical abilities are somewhat basic so while a DT466 may well be a better solution, it will bring far more potential curve balls for you to deal with. When swapping out any engine for another you have to compare the operating rpm's for both engines to ensure that you have compatible gearing etc. For example if you replaced a 53 series GM that likes to run around 3000 rpm with a NTC Cummins that prefers around the 2000 rpm mark you would turn a 60mph truck into a 40mph truck. What I am saying really is to do an engine conversion there are many factors to consider, not just will it fit. As a final caution if you decide to lift both engine ant transmission together, you will be handling a very long and heavy package, so make sure that you don't run out of lift power or height. It is really embarrassing to get baulked half way through and then try to make it all safe and re rig.
Karl - You're being rather unkind to Cat and Ford as regards the 1100 series/3208 engines. They were never designed as a DISPOSABLE engine. If they were, please explain why Cat had a 3208 REBUILDING factory in Bettendorf, IA, that turned out over 35 factory reconditioned 3208 engines a day, in the early 1980s? The 1100/3208 Cat engines came about because Ford approached Caterpillar around 1964/65 to see if they would build a small diesel that would be a suitable replacement for big gas truck engines. The other manufacturers such as Cummins, GM and IH were designing, or had produced small diesels that they were offering as suitable replacements for big gassers. Gas was getting more expensive, and truckers were coming around to the idea that a small diesel was a better and cheaper option to a big gasser. Longer life, more torque, cheaper fuel, and overall, lower running costs were the selling points of the small diesels. GM had been having great success with repowering big gassers with the smaller GM diesels. Cat designed and produced the 1100 series engine to Ford's design criteria, and it first appeared in Ford trucks in 1967, painted blue and with decals stating "FORD diesel by CATERPILLAR." Ford used the "Caterpillar manufacture" angle in sales blurbs, with great success. The design use parameters were an engine designed for light-to-medium duty haulage, and stop-go work in the likes of garbage trucks and schoolbuses. Cat specified that the 1100/3208 series maximum gross limit was 70,000 lbs. Because the deal was a Joint Venture, Cat were free to sell the engine elsewhere. They sold this engine to other vehicle manufacturers, as a Cat engine, and then started selling them to White as a tractor engine. Other tractor manufacturers followed. The 1100 series was met with some disgust, because it was a PARENT BORE engine (i.e. - no liners). Cat had never produced a parent bore engine in its history, and Cat lovers were dismayed, even appalled. It had a "low-friction" 2-ring piston design, with a crankcase blowby collector on top of the engine. The design made them a responsive, free-revving, high RPM engine. They called it a "junk, throwaway" engine before it even got up to speed. Cat always offered oversize rings & pistons, thus proving that the engine was designed to be rebuilt. The block could be bored and sleeved satisfactorily. Unfortunately, because the engine started being installed into applications for which it was never intended .. because they were often seriously overloaded .. because they were often over-revved .. and because there were design faults in the early engines .. the 1100 series started rebelling, by blowing up. Their most common fault was throwing a rod, with the resultant almost certain total engine destruction. Cat made design changes to these engines several times. They were renamed the 3208 in the early 1970's and they were strengthened in numerous areas. The injection pump design was changed and 3-ring pistons were offered in the turbocharged version. The biggest redesign came in 1981, when the engine was extensively strengthened, had a larger oil pump and water pump fitted, was equipped with heavier pistons, wrist pin bushings, and conrods. At this point, Cat declared the 3208 as an industrial engine, and it was installed in some of the Cat product line. The engine was produced in several styles - automotive, industrial, marine, and fire pump configurations. This engine is a good little engine, if it's used in its intended applications, and not overloaded. Cat produced more than a million 1100's/3208's as I understand, and there's still an awful lot running. New emissions laws killed off production of new 3208's, in the early 1990's. They never were a "clean" engine as far as emissions went. They were particularly good on fuel. The link below is to a rebuilder website, that describes the 1100/3208 origins (not entirely accurately) and engine repair. Most importantly, the writer outlines (accurately) the major differences over the years in the design of these engines, and between the various versions of the engines. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/65725/rebuilding_the_cat_3208_diesel.aspx
I apologise if that's the impression I gave. I also believe that there was quite a strong influence from US military sources in the development of the 1100/3208 engines. When I refered to the throw away aspect I perhaps should have been more clear that this related more to the use of these engines in military applications. Whatever their origins, they did certainly achieve widespread usage and success, with many still in service today. They certainly can be rebuilt and are on a regular basis. All said, they were/are not Cat's best motor.
As a contractor, I subcontracted and worked with a bloke, in 1974, who ran an IH R190, and in this truck he had personally installed an 1160 Cat engine. Bob was largely self-taught, but a brilliant mechanic and engineer. Bob pulled a tandem semi-tipper with the R190, and the 1160 Cat was a good little performer. However, these early engines came with some serious design faults. Bob spoke to me at length about a curious problem he had with the 1160. On bitterly cold Kalgoorlie mornings, with the thermometer hanging a few degrees below 0°C, he'd start the Cat up, and it would have no oil pressure. He said he could run it for 30 secs and there would still be no oil pressure. He'd shut it down for fear of damage. When he cranked it up again, after checking the oil and all around the engine, oil pressure would come up, just like normal. We discussed all the potential causes, from sticking oil pump relief valves, and faulty gauges, right through to exotic reasons. Despite intensive investigation, he never did find any reason for the problem - and it always happened just on cold mornings at startup. It wasn't until several years later, that Cat admitted to him there was a design problem in the oil pump pickup tubing. It wasn't big enough diameter, and when the oil was thick, on cold mornings, the oil pump would cavitate. That's why the later 3208's were redesigned with larger diameter oil pump piping, and a larger capacity oil pump as well. No doubt these design problems contributed to engine destruction, and thus promoted the "hand-grenade" engine nickname. The other problem was the use of the 1100's/3208's in agricultural tractors, including 4WD's. This is an application that the early engines should never have been used in, and they rebelled by blowing up regularly in tractors. They were no doubt loaded up way beyond any design load limit that Cat intended for them, and their useage under long hours, constant load use, almost certainly stressed them beyond their design limits. As always, if you use an engine in an application for which its designed, then you generally don't have too many problems. However, people always associated Cat with "heavy duty" and probably always thought that the 1100/3208 could handle anything thrown at them. When you start hauling 80,000 and 100,000 lbs behind an engine designed and rated for a maximum of 70,000 lbs, then you're simply asking for trouble.
Should I use an engine/load leveler like these? I read somewhere that the 3208 is about 1500lbs and with the transmission attached they may weigh 2000-2250, so the 4000lb should work. They are both 4000lb but the Amazon one has four rollers in the center where the HF one has just two. http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-capacity-heavy-duty-load-leveler-5402.html http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Steel-Leveler-Engine-Hoist/dp/B001P5UWUW
I'd use the one from amazon
I found that the truck has a screwed on plate above the transmission. mostly on the bottom of the floorboard but slightly turned up on the firewall. It looks like it would make for easier access to the top few bolts. Do I need or should I still pull the engine with transmission attached?
That may make it easier to get out but it will be a bear to get it all lined up when you go back together.
I'd go for the two in one hit. As OSB says trying to get the transmission input shaft lined up with the engine already in place is not something I would like to contemplate.
I'm not trying to steal this thread, but I recently had an early 80s firetruck drop in my lap I had purchased for a company that promptly went bankrupt. It's got a 3208. 20,000 miles and 800 hours+/-. I'm thinking of putting a flatbed on. It would see limited use and would clean up nice but from what I've read here it sounds like I should sell it. The other problem is it's geared for 50mph. So either I have to re-gear or swap the rear end. Thanks for any feedback. Chris
I'm getting into this this weekend and had a few questions: >Front and rear seals; The donor seals don't seem to be leaking, is it best to 'leave sleeping dogs lie'? If I should replace them, any tips would be appreciated? >Marking flex plate; Is this pretty well self explanatory once I get into it? >Lifting points; Front of engine has plenty of threaded holes but the rear not so many and none appear to be symmetrical, any suggestions? should I fab something out of angle iron or flat with holes in both ends, one for bolt and one for chain?
Update: We got the bad engine/trans combo removed and plan to work on removing the donor engine tomorrow. I am now sure the fork idea wouldn't have worked as it was all the backhoe wanted to lift them hooked directly up. The engine leveler didn't work. It got bound up once a load was on it and wouldn't come unbound, so we removed the engine/trans combo by adjusting the chains.
Good luck and stay safe!
Doesn't surprise me the deal about the load leveller. Some of them don't like moving when they have plenty of weight on them, but you don't find out until you have the engine hung on it. To follow on from what Steve said above, make sure you remember my old grandad's motto - "before engaging wrenches, engage brain". I prefer to express it as before you do anything ask yourself "is what I'm planning to do here safe?". Could explain why I still have all my fingers and other body parts after so many years.
I have two current issues with the change out and swapping components: 1) I broke the alarmstat p/n 1002-04870, (3) wire, 210 degrees out of the bad motor. I think this shuts off the engine if it over heats. The donor motor has a one wire with smaller threads and a different location (I think it functions the same) . Is there a workaround or reasonably priced parts source? 2) The tachometer on the bad motor goes in the front of the motor with a cable. The donor motor doesn't, may come off the alternator I am not sure. The bad motor tach cap is off and the tach shaft is exposed. Does the tach shaft just unthread counterclockwise? I would like to keep everything as original as possible, but I guess I could look at an aftermarket tach. Is an aftermarket tach possible (not sure on diesel) or are there other workarounds?