Hi Folks, I've got a Cat 3406b industrial serial # 90u1903 in my fishing boat. The motor has only 140 hrs since major overhaul, new everything. It leaked oil out of the bottom of the turbo when warming up and would then clear up. thought I had a problem with the turbo sealing up and thought I was getting oil from supply line to turbo. Pulled the turbo, installed brand new Borg warner unit and leak persisted. That means oil is coming straight out of the exhaust manifold! I didn't think of this as everything is new in the engine... Wondering what could be going on in there. I don't have a lot of experience with Cats so before I tear into it I thought I'd troll around a bit see if I hook something from the experts.....
It would either be coming from a damaged piston/ring combination or maybe from the cylinder head or the head gasket. Who overhauled it ..? I'd be talking to them before I started messing with it myself.
Ya the term "overhaul" is way to loose now days but glad to hear everything was done in this case..... By bottom of turbo, is that before it enters the turbo at the mounting gasket or on the exhaust side after the turbine ? Was it doing this before by chance? New head (grasping at straws but valve guide seals missing) ? New piston/liner packs (Cat was known to forget to ring piston's a couple of years ago on reman kits) ? Must have a fair amount of blow-by or is the blow-by tube still capped off or something strange ? If there is that much oil, could you see which end of the manifold has the oil with the turbo off ?
I'm thinking in the head too ..... not piston rings, if it was rings you'd have a bad smoke problem and possibley alot of blow-by), the oil would burn away and not show where you are seeing it ........ I would check as mentioned , valve seals or even a leaking (bad seating) head gasket ..... if it is you may want to pull the exhaust manifold off and see which cyl its coming from ....... just some simple suggestions ....????????? let us know if you find out and let the HEF encyclopedia grow ...LOL... good-luck
Thanks for the advice, I would love it if it were something as easy as torquing the head.... I'm taking the boat to the yard for painting, but as soon as I'm back at the dock I will dive in. I'm not too sure how I will know whats up without at least removing the head, but I may check the torque on head bolts first. I also thought of doing a compression test to see if I have a low cylinder. there is a spacer plate that has a seal and I understand there are some o rings in there somewhere for the oil feed to the valve train. Any thought s here?
Who did the Overhaul ? ...... I mean if it was a shop they should stand behind the work ....NO ???
Overhaul was performed by previous owner who also built the boat. I have 100% confidence in his abilities.The motor was originally an industrial compressor motor that was traded in for a new unit because of a hard starting problem. P.O. bought the motor, completely disassembled/washed and reassembled. Only found a weak starter and perhaps a fueling issue. He got IPD rebuild parts from Radtke and reported all went together well and was satisfied with rebuild.He mentioned that Radtke gave him a newer Spacer Plate which didn't fit so he tracked down the correct one. Used keystone style rings supplied by Radtke.New pistons,sleaves, rod bearings,main bearings, Had rods refurbished. Sent head in for rebuild. after it all went together had pump re calibrated. Engine runs beautifully except for this GD oil leak. Talked with Dan at Radtke yesterday, he recalled way back people that had done rebuilds on these coming up with what was thought leaky turbos, They discovered the Dello oil used during break-in the wrong viscocity and cylinders were getting glazed and oil was found being pushed up into head. they have since switched to using a special break-in oil now and running motors @ 120% duty for some period.... I'm not sure this is my problem as P.O. described leak fro the get go, and figured turbo just needed to seat in properly and lived with the leak,which would clear up after engine got warmed up.
Something you might check just for fun.I in framed a J.D. Diesel one time that was blowing oil out the exhaust.Instead of letting me check it he insisted I in frame it.Well it was doing the same thing.Found problem.Oil drain line on turbo was stopped up not letting oil drain from turbo.
What oil are you using right now ...? Has the engine always been on this oil..? I have never in my life heard of anything like a "special break-in oil" to be used on Cat engines. When listing the details of the rebuild I see no mention of the turbo. What (if anything) was done to it..? Glazing of piston rings & liners is very common in genset engines that run for long periods on low load (typically 20% or less). Once they're glazed the only option is to open them up and re-ring the pistons plus glaze-bust the liners. I like the idea above of the turbo drain line ........ worth a look. I'll say right now I am not a fan of IPD Parts based on past experience.
Me either ! ..... have never heard of an oil just for break-in ...BUT I have heard never use a full synthectic oil on either a new or rebuilt engine, due to not allowing the rings to seat in properly.... But I will say that oil brands do effect oil consumption .... we always found that 15w-40 Delo 400 worked the best with our Cat engines ...... but we are talking about consumption not loosing/leaking between oil changes ..... it is normal at times to USE 2-3L (quarts) of oil in 250hrs run time in a truck (which will hold 44L w/retarder).... but it never shows like we are hearing here, like running out of the turbo ? ..... so because we are talking Diesel here, there can be no way a running under load not idling engine will allow oil to bypass the rings to a point of running out the exhaust ports after a combustion stroke, in no time would there be any oil left in the crank case ..... am really curious what the out come of this problem will be ??
turbo that was on the motor was also rebuilt.I agree that the amount of oil I'm getting is unlikely coming from blowby. drain line from turbo is clear, had to remove lines when I changed out the turbo.Been using Dello 15-40....
What brand is Dello..? Never heard of it. Does it meet some API specification like CI-4 or CJ-4..? That's just out of curiosity, I don't think the oil is your problem unless as Craft says it's a fully synthetic and so could possibly raise an issue after a full rebuild. Personally I would remove the turbo and see if there is oil in the exhaust manifold. That would indicate if the oil was coming from the turbo itself or the engine. If oil is in the manifold then the next step is to pull it and see which cylinder, or cylinders, the oil's coming from. After that it's probably going to be head off time. Reading back to yuor earlier post I'm sure in my own mind the guy from Radtke was feeding you a line, however much he himself might have believed what he was telling you.
Nige, Delo 400 15/40 is Chevrons premium diesel engine oil on par with Shell Rotella. Don't know about the oil leak but a 3406 doesn't like prolonged idleing if that might be the case.
Dan, What threw me was the spelling. I Googled it after and found it was a Chevron product. Also interesting is that the synthetic version of DELO is an SAE 5W-40 rather than the 15W-40 the OP says he's using, so that would appear to rule out the issue of synthetic oil mentioned earlier. I take your point about 3406's not liking extended idling but to be throwing oil out of the turbo immediately after a rebuild (even though it originally stopped when the engine was warm, but doesn't now) doesn't look like an idling issue to me. Surely that would only appear over time..?
Double post ...........
Engine will clear up after it gets hot. Talked with Don Radtke just now. He explained the Oil deal. He says he spent hundres of thousands of dollars chasing oil consumption for years. Rebuilt 1 engine 4 times. Finally realized the new oil(dello 400) was too slick and found an oil closer to the old style Cat used to use. He uses a Mobil Delvac 1630 or John Deere oil. John deere puts this in all of their new engines. Good for about 100 hrs. When they do motors the use this other oil and for generators run them on the pin all day. and for Marine propulsion at the dock full power for 4 or more hours. He's Almost positive it's a ring problem. Suggested removing exhaust manifold to be sure. His first suggestion was to change oil for mobil and run in gear for a few hours at dock. If that didn't work remove head and dingle berry out the top of sleeves and see if that does it...
Is this engine the main propulsion in the boat..? How much load does it get put on it..?
Yeah it's the main. I run it at around 1400 rpm usually just to keep the fuel consumption to a min.
Not so much the RPM I'm thinking about but the load on the engine. Just a thought. What are the material differences (if any) between a 3406 Industrial & a Marine application..? Could this have some bearing on the issue..?
OK ! ... i'm lost on this ............ you claimed that (in the first post) there was oil leaking out of the turbo housing and then after it warms up it goes away ....hmmmm..... so if it was a ring problem then why have you not had a run away ? ...... if you've ever had one you'll never forget it ! ...... it's when the engine starts to feed off of it's self and you DO NOT have any throttle engaged ..... it's pulling engine oil into the combustion chamber and uses it like fuel .... there is virtuely nothing you can do to stop it, other than lug the engine down to a stall killing the engine ..... but in a boat you can't do that ..... I had it happen in a portable band sawmill, shut the throttle down turn the key off, nothing, ..... it's very scary when it's totally out of your control .... you kinda wanna take cover and wait till the schrapnel stops flying ..... I got lucky that I had a big enough log on deck that I was able to stall the blade with out having the clutch disengage killing the engine ....... my problem was a seized ring from sitting ...... But I never had oil running out of the turbo or outta the exhaust. We have suggested to you to pull the turbo (which you did before when you replaced the turbo) ... was there oil laying in the exhaust manifold ??? ...... the next step would be pull off the ex manifold and see which cyl it's coming from ??? ....... Unless you prove us wrong by checking ..... I/we still think it's possibly a valve seal/boot ... and when the engine gets up to op. temp heat or pressure seals it up ....... if not run the crap out of it, never mind tying up to a dock at just over idle go out and load the crap out of it, get it hot and go ....... take note of how much oil is consumed ........ Chevron Delo-400 oil works very well with Cats ..... never ever heard of using a specific oil just for breaking in that type of engine ..... jmho
Oil isn't coming out of the intake side just the exhaust.It's running out the bottom on the exhaust side of turbine housing. I'm aware of what a runaway is.I only changed the cartridge, haven't been any deeper into it. The motor is a 1976 model. I've always thought of it as a "B" but a parts guy I spoke to said it was an "A" at any rate it's old school. If I were to try to re- seat the rings, if that is what the fix turns out to be. I'll take the boat out and run the **** out of it. 10 gal an hour or no! I've heard that cat use to have a part number for a Bonami type powder to put in the intake to help score up the cylinders for break in.... I'll find out the next step after I remove the manifold. I posted earlier that I'm hauling out for paint and I'm not tearing into it till after that.. We'll have to wait. I will come back on here and give the full report. I really appreciate all the help.
I knew you ment the exhaust side ... that's why we were all along suggesting to pull the exhaust manifold off. But now you I.D. the engine as an "A "model .... that's quite a bit different beast ...... never had one ...seen a few around .... also is yours the one with the one piece head ?? ..... cause from what I remember they had a head cracking issue .... now that may open another can of worms if yours is ....... I'd still pull the exhaust manifold off ....that'll deff tell you how far you need to go ...... if only one then i'd suspect that it's in the head (may only be the seals) ...if all then the suspision of rings not seated would be some thing to look at ....... I wish you all the luck on this one ! ...cheers
Best of luck from me too. Be sure to update us on whatever you eventually find.
Well, sorry for the long delay. Finally got the time to focus on this issue. I removed the exhaust manifold and found all holes wet. Pulled valve covers and discovered play in the exhaust valve stems that were not under spring pressure. I plugged turbo oil lines and fired the motor. I peeked in the holes with my flashlight and discovered oil freely running down the valve stems. I guess the shop that reconditioned the head missed a detail or two...Its time to pull the head and send it in. I'll be able to get a good look down the sleeves too. I'll sure be glad if I don't need to pull the motor! Wrestling the 300+lbs. head out of the hold will be enough of a workout for me.... Thanks everyone for the great advice.Happy Hassle-Free motoring to you all!!!:
oops this is an old one, Well put everything back together and on the advice of an old Cat mechanic, I did the old Bonami trick. Bonami is a cleanser that is mostly made of egg shells. It is a mild abrasive that Cat mechanics used in the old days to seat rings in a newly rebuilt motor that wasn't seating. I figured with not much to loose and looking at hauling the engine out for a proper rebuild, I went for it. I got the beast up to temp and running at about 3/4 speed with a load on , I began introducing the powder , right int the Turbo. I really had to overcome alot mentally to do this and had to override my brain to actually dump something into a turbo, but the engine never even missed a beat. I put in a couple of tablespoons, ran it for a few min, then another scoop. gradually the blue smoke began to go away, as did the drip at the turbo. I probably put 2 cups total through there. I wondered what damage this stuff could be doing to my bearings and such but my old Cat guy snuffed and said not to worry. I changed oil , filters and she's good as new....
Sounds like a classic case of what happens when an engine has been run under-loaded for an extended period. Happens with gen sets all the time, especially when those responsible for running them seem to have no concept of the idea that it's as bad to underload an engine as it is to overload one.
I've heard of alot of tricks that the 'ol boys have used over the years !! …… BUT Never this one !!! ….. I've seen and even used Bonami (mostly known to be a Kitchen cleanser) i've used it to get scratches out of wood finishes, but never read the label to see that it was actually ground egg shells …. WOW ! This is ONE I will never forget !!! ….. Thanx for Sharing the end results !! ….cheers
I have heard of the Bon Ami trick, never tried it myself. I was told it was a short term fix, that the Bon Ami scratches the glaze up in the cylinder vertically instead of horizontally like a bore hone would and that it doesn't last. I am interested to know if this works long term.
As I heard it from my Dad who is now in his 80's, the Bonami trick got started when the automakers started using chrome rings and hadn't figured out the right combination for crosshatch and break in oil yet. Heard the same story when I worked for the local CAT dealer about the diesel engines.