Gents, The bushings on my CAT 941B have reached the end of their life. When I bought the machine a few years back the seller said he had the bushings turned. Now they are completely worn out, one actually split and a few others I can see the pin. Of course I need to replace them but I have some questions, first is this a DIY job or do I need to haul the thing to the CAT dealer. It looks like I can get the parts (7K2020 for the master, and 7K2019 for the others) for around $6 on line so I'd like to be able to do it myself, if it's something that can be tackled by a novice. If it is a DIY job what's the secret to removing the pins, I tried a piece of 3/4in pipe with a small sledge and the pin didn't budge a hair. As always any ideas, suggestions, guidance or direction is greatly appreciated
If the bushings have been turned and are now completely shot, you need new rails (track chains) not new bushings. The pins and the links will be near or at their wear limits also. One or two bushings could be changed in the field if everything else was still serviceable, but to do a complete turn or change you take the tracks to a dealer or service shop, remove all the shoes and use a machine called a track press to completely disassemble the chains into all the little component pieces, clean, and reassemble.
If you scroll down to the "Shop Talk" section of the forum, there is a thread about a homemade track press. Thought you should know.....
Echoing Lantraxco's post #2 you are at the stage where you need a complete replacement link Group. The later pages of this thread may give you some help ....... HeavyEquipmentForums
Thanks sstocker31 on the info on the press. Thanks also lantraxco and Nige. Based on what you guys have said about the rails and such (and after looking at the suggested posts) here's what I'm thinking on the way ahead. Call Cat and get a technician out there to take a look and see if a) if only a couple of bushings need changed see what it would take to have them do it in the field, b) assess the rails and see what the expert opinion is (I'm willing to bet he'll say the whole works needs to be replaced) and then make some decisions. Does anyone have any idea as to what a new set of rails might cost?
Here's a better suggestion IMHO. Call your local Cat dealer and ask to speak to one of their PSSRs (Parts & Service Sales Rep). Don't be too specific but tell him you're thinking of doing undercarriage work on your machine and ask for a site visit for a complete undercarriage wear measurement. This is a free service based on the fact that the PSSR is expecting a sale and therefore a nice wedge of commission. Once you have his report, which will contain all sorts of recommendations and options of what courses of action are available to you regarding parts replacement, post the results here and we can comment on them. At the end of the day you don't have to buy parts or service from the dealer but the information you get from the wear measurement can be invaluable. If the measurements show that you require a large number of pins, bushings, and also that the LH & RH links are also well-worn, which is what I would expect if the bushings had already been turned, then effectively you need a complete replacement Link Group. You don't mention what Part Number your link group is (or your machine S/N for that matter) but looking at 7K-2051 which is one group that uses the 7K-2019/7K-2020 bushings it comes in at $2,500 from the dealer. You said in your OP that the bushings were available online for around $6 each, the Cat price is $15.50. Based on that you ought to be able to get the complete Link Group for around $1000 each, maybe less. Once you get into Track Shop work at a dealer - replacing bushings is not really a job to be done in the field - you're probably easily looking at $100+/hour labour rate. PM Nitelite (from the thread to which I posted the link above) and ask him where he got his Link Groups for his 951C and what he paid for them.
Just to give you an idea, this is a view of a track pin press in a dealer's shop ....... kind of what you get for your $100/hour.
Whoa, had a bad flashback there Nige! The one I sweated on was neither that big or that new, but she would shake the floor on D8K links... I never had any desire to go bigger I can tell you that!
that one will handle up to D11 links ....... the price would likely make your eyes water .....
We had a lowly 200 tonner, bought well used. I worked for a Deere dealer at the time, we didn't get into anything big, D8H and K was the biggest we ever dealt with. Handling all the bits including the shoes while doing a turn was a workout even then, LOL. Yeah, we looked at new ones back then early 90's, gave me sticker shock... can't imagine what that big mother in CAT colors is worth today!!
On 941 chain once you have a few bushings popped usualy the chain is scrap including the drive sprockets, what would be a handy thing to undertake is to post a few pictures up on this thread of the track groups, plus any comments on loose plates and rattling rollers, the 941 shovel is known to be hard on running gear, new chains = new rims on this shovel I have always found, the chains and bolt up bits can be bought now for very low cost in the form of ITR or similar, I don't think its fair to drag Mr CAT out to look at something like a 941 as time and travel costs add up, this little chariot can be sorted simply over a few phone calls once DMC understands that re-pin & bushing the chains is a waste of time and money. just my thoughts as I know I am not very bright. tctractors p.s. D8H/K runs on 50mm pins 941 is around the half way spot with nasty little pads.
Thanks Nige for the suggestion on having the PSSR come take a look. The S/N on the machine is 80H6907. As for the cost of the bushings I looked them up on offroadequipment (you turned me on to them a while ago). Considering I only use the machine about 20 hours a month to clear some land for a future home/farm I'm hoping to not have to spend a small fortune on repairs. I'll also PM Nitelite and see if he can tell me where he got his, whether it was from the CAT dealer or a third party. I'm thinking another option might be to purchase the rail/chain, pins and bushing from a third party (offroadequipment) and have CAT put them together, if that would be something they be willing to do. I know some places won't work with parts they don't supply - but worth asking. I'll just have to suck it up on the labor charges.
Or look on www.machinerytrader.com for dismantled 941B machines near you, call around and see if anybody has a set of serviceable used track groups you can buy and just slap on. Might be the best bet all around if you can find some.
Nitelite got his link groups from a 3rd party, that I'm sure. I just can't remember who it was, despite searching his thread. If you buy complete rails/link groups/chains (all the same thing) then the only thing that will be required is to remove the track shoes from your existing track groups and install them on to the new link groups. Just so we know what we're talking about, this is what a link group looks like. Irrespective if you were to buy new or used, swapping the shoes over is all that's needed to have your tractor ready to roll ............. View attachment 136653
My track chains are Cat Classic from Thompson Cat, in Lavergne,Tennessee, ask for Jeff in the parts dept. They are made by trek in Korea. I had Cat ship them to the Cat dealer in Clarksville Tn. for local pick up, thus no freight was charged. If you have an agricultral tax number that will take care of the sales tax. I would also reccomend that you have Cat send out their PSSR to have a look at your UC. You may have a bad roller or two. My SALT chains /w the bolt up master link were $1500.00 per side and some change. $180.00 each for the sprocket rims. DIY was about $3500.00. Cat wanted $8100.00 to do the job if I transported the tractor to them. That price was for only replacing the chains and rims. Any needed hardware, broken bolts, or anything else was extra. I would expect the invoice to be about ten grand had I have taken the tractor to CAT and that would be plus transport. Offroadequipment was $1900.00 per side for the salt track chains and about the same $180.00 for the rims. You can DIY if you have the tools and are handy with them. You also will need access to a oxygen acetylene torch. Instructions to everything you need to know, with pictures, are on my thread. With the knowledge of the experts like Nige and tctractors available here on HEF you can mostly stay out of trouble, if you ask questions.
In the very first line of this thread it sort of tells the tail of all you need to hear, that is the track chains are scrap and as its on a 941 the rims will also be to the same place in their life as the chains, now the owner only wants to spend a small amount on the replacement items as he will only use the shovel for a few hours a year? so its best to price up cheap new parts as a base line cost, then chase after used items and judge the value left in the parts against the cheap new part price, getting CAT out is pointless and a waste of time and travel, in the U.K. Finning would tell you to "clear off" the chains in question can be bought at a low price now but dmc is not realy wanting to spend $5'large on undercart, the thought of pressing in new bushings would be a wasteful practice. tctractors
I did some calling around today. First was a call to CAT to see what it would take to press in new bushings/pins in the old rail (just for a reference baseline), estimate was in the $2200 range, from them a new rail was $2800. Rollers (one side) were another grand. I then called the guys down there in TN at Thompson per Nitelite's post/suggestion (thanks Nitelite). They quoted me $1295 for SALT and $1065 Dry for trek tracks, $160 and $180 for the rollers and around $200 for nuts/bolts. So for around $3800 I could do both sets of rails and rollers for the price of one from CAT. OffRoadEquipment gave me a quote very close to the Thompson guys, coming in around $3500 (but I need to double check whether that was for the SALT tracks). That seems somewhat reasonable, since both offers included shipping. As for replacing the sprocket rim I'm just very nervous about doing that. I know Nitelite said a worn sprocket will eat up new rails rather quickly but I'm a little gun-shy about taking this on. Looking at the pictures and posts from Nitelite's effort I don't know that I could do the same, I'm working pretty much out of a pole barn with no access to any real tools other than hand tools. Is removing the rail section with the front idler very difficult, something that can be done with a heavy duty socket and a breaker bar? Then comes the cutting of the sprocket with a torch (something I would have to acquire) and re-welding it (would have to hire this out). So, are there any other options to replacing the rim on the sprocket. I thought I saw in one of the posts some type of insert that can be welded into the sprocket (wouldn't have to remove the rail assembly in this case), has anyone every used these? I certainly appreciate everyone's comments/suggestions on this, I'm learning a whole lot that is saving me a whole lot of money. As I've learned it's either time or money and at this point I have a little more time than I do money.
The procedure for building up the sprockets was posted by mjt. Check out his thread for what he did.
If you can, post pictures of your sprockets. You can, or your hired welder can, cut the old sprocket rims off and then cut a 1/4 section out of the new rim, fit it around the track frame, and weld it back together, thus avoiding removal of the track frame. No way would I consider putting new SALT chains on worn sprockets. The new chains will just jump teeth on the sprockets and break to bits the parts in your final drive components. I would be much more nervous about not doing sprockets. You can buy tools much cheaper than you can hire things done. Mobil mechanics work at a premium, not saying that they don't earn and deserve every penny they charge. You can buy the needed tools at Harbor Freight and they are guaranteed replacement for life. I have broken several Snap On tools lately but only one HF tool. Problem, I can't seem to find a Snap On dealer to replace the broken tools. tctractors, had I not called Cat to send out their PSSR guy they would have missed the uc sale and I would have paid too much to someone else for the uc. We can't all be running around in new Rovers you know. Cat Classic made more since to me rather than paying for genuine Cat with coin that I didn't have. By the way, I drive an old Honda.
If you can, post pictures of your sprockets. You can, or your hired welder can, cut the old sprocket rims off and then cut a 1/4 section out of the new rim, fit it around the track frame, and weld it back together, thus avoiding removal of the track frame. No way would I consider putting new SALT chains on worn sprockets. The new chains will just jump teeth on the sprockets and break to bits the parts in your final drive components. I would be much more nervous about not doing sprockets. You can buy tools much cheaper than you can hire things done. Mobil mechanics work at a premium, not saying that they don't earn and deserve every penny they charge. You can buy the needed tools at Harbor Freight and they are guaranteed replacement for life. I have broken several Snap On tools lately but only one HF tool. Problem, I can't seem to find a Snap On dealer to replace the broken tools. tctractors, had I not called Cat to send out their PSSR guy they would have missed the uc sale and I would have paid too much to someone else for the uc. We can't all be running around in new Rovers you know. Cat Classic made more since to me rather than paying for genuine Cat with coin that I didn't have. By the way, I drive an old Honda.
Nitelite, I still keep thinking about your electric welding Drama, as I read your tale it did seem funny (well it did) but anyhow I am glad you are still with us, the undercart thing above is simple to realize the fitting of CAT anything is not going to be on the cards, so requesting a PSSR moment would be of little use to CAT, this practice is not the common thing in the U.K. unless the Company has a good working stance with CAT and is after CAT products, its sort of seen as poor manners to waste peoples time with the thought of No Order being intended?? this practice is not the common thing here and would struggle to realy happen, the CAT classic stuff is the same stuff you can buy from most running gear outlets, the Tent that I live in is to small to put your fancy bed in, Nitelite if I had your Money I would throw mine away. all the best tctractors
Aw tc, don't throw it away, just mail it to me, I'll scrape up the coin to pay the postage. Now that the 951 is on the downhill side of the repair work I am trying to figure out how I am going to fill her tank! By the way, I enjoy the post on your sprocket thread. I guess you have seen that I modeled my work area after yours. Keep up the good work! The welder's time ended up being 12 hours pay, two trips, to weld the sprockets, That time also included some time spent doing some hard facing on the under side of the scoop.
I went down to the farm and took a few pictures, these are the right side, the side I'm pretty sure is toast. Like Nitelite's it looks like the sprocket was previously replaced and they cut it to fit over the rail. As you can see the rollers are shot and have gouged the chain. Thus I plan to replace all of these. I'll post the pictures of the left side next.
Here are pictures of the left side, which according to the notes in the front of the parts manual I received when I bought the machine, was replaced at some point. I'm hoping that this is still usable and doesn't need to be replaced.
The left side rollers (which look like they have been replaced) and finally the shoes/pads
TUW, sorry man....
dmcschultz, I had very little track experience in the 45 years I pulled wrenches and even I can see that machine is in need of lots of parts Maybe you need to talk Nitelite into taking a little vacation from his project and come over and give you a hand.
That would be great if Nitelite wanted to take a little vacation in what is billed as, "America's Most Historic City". I've pretty much resigned myself to replacing both chains, the right side sprocket and rollers. My hope is that there is still a little meat remaining on the left side sprocket, and the rollers on that side are workable. I only put about 200 hours/year on the machine so if I can get by this year then I'll put it in the budget for next year.
Just a little Note, the Tracks are on back to front. tctractors
I thought all track loaders were that way, because they spend more time backing up than going forward? (ducking!)
Yair . . . Yeah, as I posted here a while back, an old tank sinkers ploy for tractors that never saw much reverse. . . not he best on a loader though. It makes little difference to the machine and saves on turning bushes . . . which was not an option when they were perhaps eight or nine hundred miles from a track press over bad roads. They reckoned could get close an extra thousand hours by running standard chains to destruction with the first thousand back to front. I never did it myself but several of the old timers told me it was standard procedure in the early days. Cheers.
Yup. Whoever did the undercarriage last time probably didn't even realize there was a right and a wrong way to install tracks. As other posters have said that machine needs a LOAD of parts. The right side is basically toast without going near it with measuring kit; the spocket, links, bushes, most likely pins if there are split bushes, and rollers look as though they'll all need replacing. The left side is somewhat better but it would need measuring to see if the sprocket would go again. However if the LH Link Group (as in pin/bush condition) is toast then it will have worn the sprocket. I know it's your cash at the end of the day but would you really want to install a replacement link group on to a worn set of sprocket teeth and so wear out the outside surface of the new bushes on the replacement Link Group in double quick time..? The rollers on the left side have wear in them but it's a question of what % of wear and will they still go with the new link gp. I think it was Kb9tci who re-shelled his track rollers. Replacement shells as opposed to complete rollers were around $60 a pop for double flange and $30 for single flange. That all assumes that the existing roller shafts are good and undamaged. See here - bottom of the page ......... HeavyEquipmentForums
I found a typical photo of how the OP's track pins would likely appear bearing in mind his link groups had a pin & bush turn previously. Note the step on the pins from the external wear during the 1st life of the link group before the pin/bush turn. Combined with internal bush wear that is what causes track pitch extension and screws up sprockets.
Yair . . . It would be real interesting to see some invoices for rail assemblies/rollers/idlers and so on from say the late fifty's and see how they equate with tractor price at the time and the going hourly rate. I have been looking on the web but can't find anything . . . I'm sure there must be some old invoices laying around in drawers or filing cabinets. Cheers.
Nitelite, I live in Fredericksburg, about 3 hours from Norfolk - pretty far for a sidetrip. But if you're a civil war buff this is the place to visit with several major battlefields within a relatively small radius (Chancellorsville, Salem Church, Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania Court House, Wilderness). I also have access to some private property on which a major Union field hospital was located. And just up the road at Quantico is the Marine Corps Museum. Wish I could offer a place to stay but our house is full with the daughter, son-in-law and two grandkids who are living with us while their house is being built (bought the CAT to clear the land). I'm with you on buying the tools I'll need and doing it myself, one thing I've learned over the years is it is usually cheaper to buy the tool(s) and do the job yourself than to have someone else do it. I too use a lot of stuff from Harbor Freight. Not always the best quality but for the occasional user they're not bad. I've got quite a few tool(s) from there. Do you think the torch kit from Harbor Freight is stout enough to cut off the sprockets? I've been thinking about getting one, primarily to heat things up when they are rusted/"frozen". I have a question about "Jeff", does he work at Thompson or OffRoadEquipment?? Based on what I thought I read in one of the posts the other day I called Thompson and asked for Jeff and they put me on to a guy but it sounded like he wasn't really a sales guy and turned me over to another guy. As I mentioned in an earlier post the two quotes were pretty close. So, the tracks are on backwards...good to know. I was going to take pictures and put the thing back the same way. Nige: thanks for the advice on the roller shells, I'm thinking that may be the way to go for those on the left side. I've got the time to rebuild - more time than money. Also, I'm willing to bet my bushings/pins look as bad, if not worse, than those in the picture you posted. As for the PSSR here's the situation as this point. When I started my research on Sunday (before I posted my first inquiry here) I was looking on-line for the local CAT dealers to get an idea which would be closest if I should have to haul the thing in. As I was on there a chat window opened and "Ben" asked what I was looking for, I told him undercarriage work. Since the dealers are closed on Sundays he said he'd pass my info on to the local dealer. So Tuesday the PSSR called me. Was very anxious to get out to see the machine. I told him I couldn't make it that day and he said no problem, he was in the area and would swing by and take a look. I didn't hear from him yesterday and left him a message so we'll see if he went out. If not I'll see if he or someone else is willing to take a look.
"Jeff" is at Offroad Equipment. However he's changed jobs and in order to get hold of him you need an email address or direct phone number. PM Nitelite/Kb9tci, I think they have the details. If you decide to re-shell your rollers it's not a difficult job with a bit of patience, and with your assumed hourly labour rate at $0 it's only going to cost you the price of the parts (a shell plus a pair of seal assemblies per roller), added to that a bit of oil to fill each roller. That's all instead of paying a mechanic $X/hr for his time on top of the parts. Consult Kb9tci's thread because it's full of explanatory "how to" notes and photos. If a dealer PSSR is prepared to drop by and look at your tractor on his nickel then I would say by all means go for it. When you get the report it will answer a lot of questions about things like the wear on the LH sprocket.
So I finally hooked up with the PSSR that did indeed take a look at the machine. His first question was my intention on the use of the machine. I told him it was a weekend warrior and I wasn't looking to use it to make money. He then told me the right side chain was 100% worn (as I expected) and that the rollers, at least the 1st and last ones needed to be replaced. He somewhat indicated that changing the rollers was the minimum, and if I decided to replace the chain on that side I should replace the sprocket. As for the left side he was pretty non-committal, saying that it certainly wasn't as bad as the right and that is was OK for what I was looking to do with the machine. I tried to press him and ask about a percentage of the sprocket remaining and he stated that they don't really measure the sprocket (which based on what I've read here on HEF wasn't right) So his visit really didn't help a lot, other than to confirm what I already knew and that is the right side is toast. So here's what I'm considering 1) replace the right side chain, sprocket and rollers. 2) Order a sprocket for the left side ($112 is not unreasonable) when I place the order for the chains, etc... 3) Work the right side and see what it takes to cut-off/weld the sprocket 3) See if I can tear apart the scrap rollers from the right side, if so order some shells and rebuild the left side. I may roll the dice on the left side sprocket. If the welder doesn't charge an arm and a leg I'll have him do the left side but based on what I've seen in the other posts I'm looking at several hours (somewhere around 10-12 hours @ $60/hr). Unfortunately I don't have the training/skills like Nitelite and others to weld myself.
The sprocket wear detemrination is more of a "Go/No Go" than a physical measurement of wear percentage. Maybe the illustration below will help you to understand it. A 5P-8616 Gauge (for D4-D5-D6 size machines) is placed in various teeth of the sprocket to determine an average. The gauges are designed to ignore the sprocket tooth tip conditions and determine the ratio of wear in the tooth root compared to the wear on the tooth sides, with the wear on the tooth sides being the determining factor in reusability. The gauge should be placed into one or more teeth with the point at the root aimed at the center of the sprocket. If the point of the gauge touches the tooth root, the sprocket tooth is more than 50% worn. Conversely, if the point of the gauge does not touch the tooth root, then the sprocket is less than 50% worn and could possibly be reused. The procedure for removing the sprocket and welding the new one is available. If you want a pdf copy of it then send me a PM with your email address. Your sprockets should in a way be simpler than Nitelite's in regard to the welding because they are spoked rather than being solid, therefore less welding to do. With the tracks on your machine having been installed backwards there will have been more wear on the sprockets while driving in the forward direction due to the relative movement between the bushes in the track link group and the sprocket, relative movement that would not have happened if the tracks had been the right way round.
Here's the reason why the sprockets would likely wear faster with the tracks installed the wrong way round. It's a bit like the answer as to why you need to moderate the tractor speed in reverse when the tracks are installed with the links facing the correct way. You can see the way that the track links are assembled is that the pins are pressed into the "wide" end of the track links and that the bushings are pressed into the "narrow" end. Now imagine lifting the links #7 & 8 on the LH side while keeping the rest of the chain fixed to the ground. You can see that pin #1 on the LH side will rotate with links 7 & 8 because they are all pressed together as a unit. The bush #3 will remains on the ground. That's what happens when the track moves in the forward direction, as the track comes on to the bottom of the sprocket the bush stays (relatively speaking) fixed with respect to the sprocket because it is not being forced to rotate. However if you lift the links #9 & 10 at the RH end of the assembly then the bush #3 will be forced to rotate with those links, again because they're pressed together as an assembly. However the pin #1 will not move because it's pressed into the links #5 & 6 and we are not lifting them. That's what happens when the tractor moves in reverse so the bushing is being forced to rotate with respect to the sprocket teeth and that's what causes the higher wear in reverse because of the forced rotation of the bush with respect to the sprocket teeth as it enters and leaves the sprocket.
Yes, Jeff Robinson works for Off road. Also, The parts guy who works for Thompson Cat is also named Jeff. You can buy the Harbor freight torch set, get the heavy duty type. Buy a two wheel dolly from them to strap your tanks to and use as a cart. Buy larger oxygen and acetylene bottles from tour local gas supplier. The cost of exchanging the little small bottles available from Harbor Freight will get expensive in the long run. I furnished the welder and the welding rods. I paid the welder $20.00 per hour for 12 hours work. Those sprockets would require about eight to ten hours welding IMHO. If you would rather have the welder cut the old rims off for you, you can get by with the small complete torch set from HF. Still, the cost to fill a small bottle is not a lot different than filling a larger bottle. Generally speaking, one bottle of acetylene will outlast two bottles of oxygen when cutting.
Nige, You Sir, have a lot of brain power to come up with so much technical information on any just about type machine. That would cause my redneck pea size brain to overload. My hat is off to you.
I can't really claim any credit. This was a subject that was discussed a couple of years ago and a number of people were struggling to understand the concept of the relative movement between the sprocket and the bushes in the Link Group. All I did was find the thread and lift the same post out of it.......... Having a good memory helps I suppose
Well the PSSR chap seemed to be on top of his Game, as a matter of interest did he comment on the front to back thing with the track groups? I am happy that he thinks you might need the front and rear rollers replacing as this is a help? I did notice that the top rollers looked in good condition, well things are looking up as the "Base Line " sort of spreads some as any money spent needs to be to good effect if the coins are tight, as a point the CAT agents in the U.K. would not make a Site visit to this shovel you would be holding the phone with no one on the other end. tctractors
The CAT and Deere dealers I worked for here in Oregon, the CSR/PSSR types loved to get calls for measuring undercarriage, especially from someone they could claim as a "new customer" Turning in a report gave them brownie points in that it proved they were doing something, and something they had to get a bit dirty to do. Also usually supplied a name to write on the lunch receipt, even if maybe the customer wasn't actually present. The CAT boys loved to show off their little ultrasonic probe and tube of toothpaste (gel) for measuring bushing thickness, etc. all part of the show. Not that they wouldn't treat a rock quarry or dirt contractor a lot better, but at the end of the year CASH was always our biggest parts and service customer, the lesson being that the little guys helped us survive as much as the big ones. Of course I can only speak for the local area, obviously attitudes and practices must vary around the world?
Tony, from experience folks in the US spend more on their "toys" than most normal customers in the UK would spend on a working tractor. Maybe that explains why the dealer PSSRs are more likely to be interested in any potential for sales.
Nige, you are so correct with your comment as some contractors are loath to even put new tips on a bucket although its just damaging the adaptors, I see pictures that Tom V puts up polishing worn buckets into their second life with chunks of iron, the U.K. contractors would see that as a total waste of money, they would carry on using the bucket until its fit for China only and buy a new bucket. tctractors
Well spoted on the back to front set up.I guess previous owner did this on purpose to squeeze some more wear out as there would be abit of fresher meat on the sprocket and abit of fresher meat on the bush perhaps. Your tracks are gone mate,however I doubt you need pads unless they have been running slack and even though your rollers look bad they may be ok on new rails and sprockets .The same may be said for the idlers and top rollers. Resign yourself to buying brand new chains and sprockets and if you're only going to put 200 hours a year on it ,if they hold tension when you pump them back up,don't go sniffing around the recoil springs etc.Just pretend they are fine!
I agree. Those track shoes look fine to go again, although they would need new hardware to install them to the new Link Groups.
Thanks tctractors, nicky 68a and everyone that has responded, and a big THANK YOU to Nige and Nitelite for all of the great information/ideas; I've decided to order up the two chains, sprockets, a couple of rollers and the hardware. I'll head down there this weekend and start by cleaning the "concrete" off the tracks (Plan to swing by HarborFreight and pick up a needle scaler as Nige suggested to Nitelite) then start removing the 268 track bolts. I'll probably order all the parts on Monday and while I'm waiting start looking around/getting estimates for the welding. I do have a question about the chains, based on the recommendations from you all I'm ordering the SALT, split-link chains so the question is: is there a "left" and a "right" or are they universal and will fit on either side (when installed correctly)
Knock on wood, I have not had a drop of oil leak from those rollers after a year!! If you have a vice big enough and a Harbor Freight press, it won't be that bad of a feat if you have the time.
The Link Groups (chains) are not handed and will fit either side of the machine. Just make sure you get them on the right way round :tong If I were you I would do what Nitelite did and remove the track shoes from the old links while they are still installed on the tractor, then remove the links, install the new ones and connect the them up. Lastly fit the track shoes to the new link groups. It's just less weight to lift doing it that way. I just mailed you the procedure for welding the replacement sprocket rims to the hubs.
The 2 new bottom rollers might be pushing the PSSR mans verbs a long way, I would remove the frames before getting the order in for new components, it might be possible to swap around some goodish rollers between the 2 frames, but I think you will need at least 6 bottom rollers. tctractors
Out of curiosity,my track chaines on a d5h lgp (on std pads) are suffering in the bush department.Pads and rollers are all good Cat.It has 4 new v.mark idlers and doesn't snake or anything.The chains were DCR or something crap like that and I know they're all made in the same putty factory,but I'm thinking of simply swapping sides and putting some good,old,segments that I have on it.Would that be a daft idea on a single bar grouser tractor that I put around 500 hours a year on?.The Cat 20" grousers are about 90% good
So yesterday I spent a few hours working on replacing the chains. Here was the set-up, my 20gal/5Hp DeVibliss air compressor running off my generator. First thing I had to do was clean the compacted dirt from the shoes to get to the bolts. Didn't think the peening gun would do it so I used a air hammer/chisel and that worked pretty well. Then I tried the 3/4 in impact wrench to loosen the bolts. I ran the compressor up to 100 lbs in the both the tank and regulator and tried a few bolts, nothing. The bolts wouldn't budge (soaked in PB Blaster). I suspect there just wasn't enough air flow/pressure from the compressor. So my next option was doing it manually. I had purchased a torque multiplier from Northern Tool (3:1, 735:2200lbs, on sale for $200) and attacked the bolts. I had some issue with a number of the bolts, the bolt was close to the grouser bar and the socket walls were too thick to let the socket seat fully on the bolt. I'll have to chamfer the socket a bit to get it to fit. Here's the score after day one. 1 cracked Craftsman "eVolve" socket 1 slightly rounded Klutch socket 10 shoes where all four bolts are loose 10 shoes with 3/4 bolts loose and about 12 shoes with 1/2 the bolts loose. Plan for today is to chamfer the socket and knock out some more.
Hold on partner, Put some oil in that 3/4 impact gun. Next, crank up the pressure regulator to 120 lbs., that should supply your gun with about 100 psi considering the loss in the hose. You need to operate that 3/4 gun with 1/2" air line and keep that airline as short as possible. Buy a ten gallon portable air tank like you would use to air up a tire. Take the fitting out of the portable tank and put a T in there and then run from your compressor to the tank and from the tank run no more than 12 feet of 1/2 air line to your impact gun. You will have ten gallon of close air for the short burst that it takes to break those bolts. Instead of quick connect fittings consider threaded pipe and clamps as the fittings themselves create a restriction due to their small inside diameter. That is a lot of bolts and that multiplier is going to wear you out. I did need to grind a taper on the sockets that I used. If the bolt heads are 15/16, and knackered a bit, a 23 mm socket might fit better. If the heads are worn down they will let your socket spin and ruin it. Don't waste your time on them torch the heads off of them and drive them through with a punch. If the nuts try to spin inside the chain, wedge a chisel in there to stop it from turning. Get a can of spray paint and a hammer. Tap on each shoe and listen for the sound. A loose shoe will sound different, most likely you will need to torch the bolts on the loose shoe so mark the suspected bolts with the spray paint. Then you can torch them all at the same time. Go back to my post and see how I dealt with the air line and impact, air tank deal.
If possible find an air connection on your compressor where you can hook your hose up without going through a regulator, they're a bottleneck for good flow also.
The first two pages of my thread, "CAT 951 in my sights" explains my air impact and supply problem when I first installed my new pads. You can see a picture of the borrowed tank that I added to get the required air supply boost. On page 38 in post #567 you can see where I am using a new Northern Tools ten gallon portable air tank for the same purpose. Again, keep the hoses short and use minimum of 1/2 hose. A 25 foot hose cut into and using 12' from the compressor to the booster tank and the other half from the booster tank to the impact gun should do it. That is a well oiled harbor freight impact gun that I am using. I paid less than 100.00 with a coupon and it loves to break track bolts. If I set down on a track bolt while tightening, I can actually strip the threads out of it if I am not careful. Good luck!
You should never be able to strip threads on a track bolt, if it's of reasonable quality you will pull it in two long before the threads give up. If you're stripping new track bolts or nuts, you need to have short one sided conversation with whoever you're buying them from. We used Italian made track bolts back when I was working steel undercarriage, a properly made and heat treated bolt would hourglass midway between the rolled threads and the head, elongate a bit and pull in two. Never popped a head while tightening, and only stripped threads if they started cross threaded. Deere bolts were better (I worked for a Deere dealer at the time) and CAT bolts were as you might expect a level of quality above Deere. As a side note, when we removed pads on the track machine we never reused bolts so it was faster to use the 1-1/2" hydraulic impact in forward rotation, 90+% would pop in two and one swat under the track plates with an 8 pound hammer would loosen any hanging on broken bolt stems. The ones that spun I got to wash the heads off with the torch. Made quick work of the job. Our socket bill every month was spectacular though! Have fun! :drinkup
Thanks Nitelite and lantraxco for the info/ideas and I will use a number of them to finish off the removal of the bolts but yesterday I enlisted the help of my son-in-law and between the two of us we were able to break loose all the bolts. The chamfered socket was the key to getting a good bite on those that were close to the grouser bar. I made a mistake on my earlier post, the impact wrench is a 1/2 not a 3/4, not that it mattered but I will look at getting 1/2" hose (short section) and a auxiliary tank to finish removing the bolts. I only had two bolt heads that wouldn't come loose with the multiplier, they were a little rounded and the socket wouldn't bite. I cut/ground them off with an angle grinder. Today I'm looking at getting some material for cribbing the thing up. Also shopping around for a torch set. Once I get the shoes removed and the chains off I plan to tackle the rollers, any advice on getting the bolts on the rollers loosened would be appreciated. I'm a bit nervous about breaking any of them since removing the remains of a broken bolt would be a bear considering I'd be working pretty much up-side-down.
I would refer you to my learned friend Nitelite's thread for ideas on how to get broken track roller bolts out of the frames. Also check all the other areas he mentions where he pulled out broken bolts from other parts of the tractor undercarriage, you may already have some broken bolts in areas that you haven't even looked at yet. If you find major amounts of broken bolts you might be better doing what he did and drop the frames off. It makes access for drilling to get an Easy-out into the bolt far easier.
If those roller bolts give you trouble, rather than try to work upside down, Remove the frames and turn them over. There are only thirteen bolts holding a roller frame in place. Removing the frame will also speed up your sprocket work. You might try craigslist for a torch as it is likely that you will need some heat on the roller bolts.
So in talking with the gents at Thompson Cat they asked me to double-check the tracks before they place the order/ship the chains. Rightly so, they want to make sure the tracks they are getting me are the right ones, they asked for a number on the track and the shoes. I went down and found the following on the side of the chain. A171JL and a hexagon with a T in it. Doesn't match up to any number in my parts book. I'm thinking this is not a CAT track, more likely some aftermarket. Does anyone know what these may be so that they can be cross referenced somehow. I looked for some type of number on the shoe and couldn't find anything.
6.75" pitch with a square bolt pattern, old D4 track. Aftermarket yeah, but not sure of the brand. Check the pitch, measure out the bolt pattern and the bolt size, and the outside diameter of the bushing if you can get some calipers on a relatively unworn part, give them all that. Of course someone else on here may be familiar with the brand you have there.
Your Links are definitely aftermarket. If they were Cat they would be marked something like 9K6629 on one side of the rail and 9K6629 on the other. As Lantraxco says your best bet is to take the following measurements: - Track pitch - as a tip measure between 4 pins and then divide by 3 to get a more accurate measurement. Bushing O/D Bolt pattern (get photos to send to them)
Not to harp on it but make sure you state the bolt size, CAT used three different sizes over the years on these rails.
CAT 941B Track Bushing Replacement Help - Now track replacement and other issues So today I went down to prep the machine for pulling the shoes/chains. Crawled under and removed the belly pans. Then decided to remove what I'd call the rock guards over the springs. Well big surprise on the left side of the machine. Seems the bolts for the recoil spring stop were sheared off and it looks like the only thing holding that spring is a 1" welded block. UGGGGG!!!! So the big question is, while in the field, can the spring be compressed and released in order for me to tap/rethread the bolts holding the stop??? Or am I now looking at having to haul this thing to the CAT shop. I realize these things are under tons of pressure so I'm a bit nervous but can the front idler be pushed back enough to take some tension off the springs then release it. The picture of the inside stop is a little out of focus but it almost looks like the end was broken off. I guess I should have looked a little closer, taken off those shields before I bought this thing.
Its no danger to sort its just a matter of using the sprocket to tension up the recoil a small amount by poking some short lenghts of bar into the tooth's of the sprocket and reversing some, as soon as the recoil is tensioned whip off those 2 brackets, let the tension off the recoil by driving forward and remove the short bits of bar, let the track tension ease slightly via the grease or control valve on the adjuster, clamp the idler from moving back any more, undo the grease or control valve again then undo the 4 bolts on the adjuster cylinder and push the cylinder back, then lift /bar out the recoil unit, repair the grooved frame and re establish the dowels and bolt locations for the brackets, they might need some welding repair also the lugs on the recoil, you can split the track if it fits in better with you. tctractors
Thanks TC. I'll go about gathering up the bar/pipe. Here's a couple of pictures of the springs (the right side - that looks OK, and the left that needs some work).
The first snap is showing "To Much Rod" hanging out the back end, is the rod still in 1 chunk, it might need the coils chopped through or a new rod and nut fitting before you undo stuff. tctractors
That top photo gives every indication that the rod on that side that holds the spring in tension could potentially be broken. There is no reason for the nut to be sitting clear of the end cap. Bearing in mind the state of the stops at the other end of the recoil mechanism are in such dodgy condition you should first make sure that the rod is in one piece and probably get the nut tightened a few turns so that it sits up to the end cap before proceeding further. If the rod proves to be broken there is no other option to safely disassemble the unit than to sacrifice the spring on that side by cutting the coils with a gas axe. There have been numbers of posts on this forum showing how to do it.
It is possible to fit a new rod and nut and its possibly the safest on thinking about it, I know I have done it in the past, a chain around the frame and spring might give you a bit more stomach for the task, even cutting the spring pulls up a bit of danger??? its a tricky one to advise on a forum due to the risk, I would chain it firstly and inspect things, then if the rods a knacker job I would fit a new rod and nut in frame. tctractors
Thanks TC and Nige, I'll take a closer look at that rod. Here's a few pictures of the bushings, or should I say what's left of the bushings, before I cut the chain off. A little out of focus but I think it tells the story.
LMAO! Heheheh... 200% worn. Seriously that's a good way to waste the gears in the finals when they get about half that bad.
Maybe those bushes were left to wear just a liitle too long ........ Oh, and whatever you're going to do to the rod in the recoil mechanism (if it's on the same side as this) do it before you cut the tracks rather than after.
Where I worked at some of our locations, not mine, that would be called getting "Full Utilization" out of a piece of equipment! If it still moved it must not have been in need of repair. And if it would run to noon before adding hydraulic oil that was a seep not a leak! But that was the way they ran things at the plant the operations manager wanted to get our plant up to speed with so we could make more profit!
Honestly I had not thought about the bushings being that bad. Being a complete newbie when I was looking for a machine I relied on a guy my son-in-law knew that owned an excavation company and a couple of machines of his own. He looked the thing over, asked about the bushings being turned and the seller said they had. When I asked what that meant in terms of longevity this "expert" told me I'd get a lot of hours out of them. Well as I stated I only use the thing about 200 hours a year, so total I've put about 400 hours on it. It never occurred to me to check each bushing, not all look as bad as what I've shown in the pictures. A valuable, yet costly, lesson learned. So, taking Nige's advice about the measuring the pitch of the chain across 4 links and dividing by 3 I came up with 6.91 inches. I took about 5 measurements and the average came out to be 20.75 inches. So does 6.91 sound about right for a 941B, is it in the ballpark. These were aftermarket chains, no idea as to the manufacturer, so I can't do a cross-reference.
6.91" is a good measurement for a 951, but not for a 941. It should be 6.75" according to the numbers I have. I wonder out loud if someone has put an aftermarket set of tracks on the tractor that are the wrong pitch..? If the sprockets are original for 6.75" pitch tracks and 6.91" pitch tracks were installed the results would probably be somewhat similar to what we see in the photos. Anyone else have any ideas..?
I plan to replace the sprockets when I replace the chain (as Nitelite did) so if I order the 6.75" chain along with the sprockets should that be a good match. Sorry for my ignorance on the subject but I'm really confused about the spring and those stops. I know on the left side the bolts sheared off and the stop is resting on that welded block. tctractors has given me a process to remove the tension on the spring (in post #68) and the question I have there is, does that big nut on the end need to come off to get the spring out? And now the question is how does it all go back together. In looking at kh9tci's post (Cat 955L...paperclips, #93) he had his new spring "loaded" at a local shop. Will I need to do the same? What's confusing me is the big nut at the end of the rod. So if I need to take the spring to a shop and have them compress the spring I assume that big nut at the end holds all the parts together but to get it back into the machine I would think the nut has to come off to get it into the "barrel", thus releasing the pressure. Really confused. Can the spring be recompressed by reversing the procedure tc suggested, i.e. sections of pipe in the sprocket and slowly reversing, putting grease into the tensioner, etc... I certainly plan to proceed with caution, wrap some 5/16" chain around the spring/rail. I don't think the rods within the spring are busted, the picture with the space between the nut and the end of the "barrel" is on the right side, where the stops are still in place and the end of the spring is pushed against those stops. The other picture, where the nut is flush against the "barrel", is on the left side where the stop is busted loose.
I agree. You don't need to remove the big nut at the back. That nut/rod is what holds the whole recoil assembly together and provided it's all good and in one piece the spring & stops can come out complete. However the situation might arise if you need to replace the front stops because they are too badly damaged then the whole assembly has to be held somehow to support the spring force thus allowing you to loosen the nut without the risk of the parts disappearing at warp speed in a million directions when the spring decompresses. Try this thread and see if the photos in it help you any ...... HeavyEquipmentForums TC may correct me on this but IMHO the first thing you do after soaking the thread in penetrating oil is to see what happens when you put a wrench on the nut fitted to the RH side recoil rod (top photo of post #69) that's sitting clear of the rear stop. If the rod is good the nut will move towards the stop, if it's broken the nut and the rod will turn together. If the rod isn't broken it would appear that you are good to continue. What Tony was suggesting is if that rod is broken it can be replaced with a new one before proceeding any further with disassembly. After replacing the rod you could then continue to remove the recoil spring assembly as a unit and then attack the issue of the broken bolts and sheared dowels between the front stops and the track frame. I like your idea of a length of chain over the top of the spring and under the track frame. If anything goes pear-shaped the chain should hold things pretty much in place. Maybe 2 chains tightened with a come-along would be even better.
After seeing those photos Nige, I'm surprised it wasn't 7" or more, I think it's 6.75" pitch worn to FUBAR.
WoW, that is some set-up. I think it would cost me more in steel/welding than to just take it to the local Cat shop (although I'm looking to see if there are any other independent shops in the area) but I get the idea now. So I talked with the local Cat service guy and he cleared something up for me on the spring. I now realize that the rod/nut are not connected to the "barrel", the smaller recessed area in front of the nut actually comes out with the spring, and is thus is "loaded", i.e. has some tension (actually a lot). Now it's starting to make some more sense. It's a little hard to see because of the rust and crud but when I relook at the pictures I can see that it probably isn't one piece as I had thought. I plan to replace those stops, they look pretty worn and pitted plus someone has put bolts in where the dowels ought to be. I'm pretty sure hardened dowels are a bit stronger than bolts, even grade 8. I just hope the holes are not too screwed up otherwise the welder is going to have some more work to do. I checked off road and they had them listed for around $25 a piece. At this point what's another hundred.
It just seemed really strange to me that the pitch measurement came out to 6.91" when that is the exact same number of the pitch for a D5/951 track link. Coincidence..? One other thing. Make sure that the bolt hole pattern for the new links matches the one in your current track shoes. It won't be the end of the world if you have to fit now Master Shoes @ $20 each like Nitelite did, but it would be a pain if you had to replace all the shoes just because the bolt hole pattern in the new links didn't match.
I know I talk a bit odd but its our English, but please understand the left recoil looks safe enough, just throw some bar stock into the rim and reverse the track some until it is good to remove the front clamps, then drive the tractor forward to remove the bar stock from the rim, then undo the grease valve and things will be safe to undo the 4 bolts on the grease cylinder to lift the recoil free, then you can deal with the bolts and Dowels, the clamps just need a bit of weld build up inside so keep your coins in your pocket. the right hand frame with the bolt dangling out the back looks just wrong like it is snapped or stretched?? this bolt can be changed in frame in a safe style and made good but you need to find out if the rod is damaged, try a spanner on the nut, I would suggest you chain both sides as you work on things. tctractors p.s. did you dent up the outer hub much? as a white metal bearing fits on it.
I hope so... he did say he took the average of 5 measurements so some of those had to be less than 6.91" In the pictures it looks like the square bolt pattern common on the old D4 6.75 pitch rails, 6.91 was D5 like you said, all had offset pattern if I remember correctly.
TC, I'll double-check the rods but I don't understand the p.s. of your last. Which outer hub are you speaking of and where does a white metal bearing fit?? I'll go down and re-measure, maybe a bit more precise than a tape measure. Also the track was laying on the ground, I'll lay it across something more rigid/straight before I make final determination on the pitch. As for the shoes I took one of the shoes traced it onto a piece of paper, shot some black paint thru the bolt holes and mailed it to the gents down at Thompson Cat. The thought there was that they could match the bolt pattern to the new proposed chain.
Tony's got his wires crossed dm..... His last line was regarding a D4 track tensioner on another thread. Good point on the bolt pattern. Better safe than sorry.
Does anyone have the part number for the seal kit for the tensioners??? I'm thinking that since I'll have most of that pulled apart it might be a good idea to go ahead and replace the seals while I'm at it. I didn't seem to have any problems with them holding tension or anything but I thought maybe I could get a head of it.
Call Jeff Robinson @ offroad 1-(888) 379-7895. Order your track chains and sprocket rims to fit your tractor serial #. They will look up the serial # to send the correct parts. If you order by part # and you are wrong, it is on you. If you give them your serial # and they send wrong, its on them. What could go wrong is if someone has put on the wrong track group before, it could have shoes on the old track chain with a different bolt pattern. Tony can confirm, but I think that you can change the tractor over from the old 6.75 to the newer 6.91 pitch by changing the whole track group including chains and sprocket rims. Just make sure about the shoe bolt pattern working out unless you are willing to also replace the shoes at the same time.
Can I just clear up on a few items, as you sit in the seat the L/Hand recoil with the front clamps "Busted" out is the 1 you need to put Bar Stock in the rim, I never use bits of pipe for this task (and TC never spoke of bits of pipe), the clamps are bolted and dowel pinned to the frame, the R/Hand recoil the 1 with the rod hanging loose has "Something of the Night" about it as the rod should not be that long and loose?? the 941/B cannot progress onto the larger track pitch (6.91") as this would not work within the roller set up, the nut on the rod holds the end cap in place with the spring trapped, if you look through my crap in shop talk you will see a 951C recoil that I am rebuilding its lay flat on the floor it might help some. tctractors p.s. my last p.s. was the wrong p.s. as already posted, this p.s. corrects the other p.s. I love it.
Thanks Tony. When you recommend "Bar Stock" are you speaking of solid round bar? When I talked with the local steel dealer and asked for bar stock they call it "flat stock", so it is a flat piece of steel with a width and thickness like 2" wide by 1/4" thick. I would think to fit into the sprocket rim it would be solid round stock. Now the question is, what diameter, how long and how many pieces. 1.5" round is about $10/foot at the local dealer. 2" is around $15/foot. As for the pitch of the tracks, is there anyway to figure out if a previous owner swapped the 941B set-up for a 951 or other set-up. Is the sprocket diameter different between the two. I'm planning on replacing the sprocket rims along with the chains so I would think that when I ordered them the gents would match things up, but could the whole rail system (rollers, idlers, etc...) have been changed over by a previous owner, and if so how can I tell.
DM, you want round bar, I would suggest 2" diameter would work best. Generally if a tractor has a tow bar it's customary to use the OEM towing pin that fits in the towbar. Obviously that won't work in your case but it gives you an idea of the length of bar you need. It should be long enough to comfortably fit across the links and a bit more besides, a foot long should be fine. As others have pointed out so long as you give your supplier your tractor S/N and ask for track link groups and replacement sprocket rims to fit that tractor it's the supplier's responsibility to give you parts that not only correctly fit your tractor but correctly fit each other if you get my drift. You have the wear charts for the idlers, carrier rollers, & bottom rollers, you can measure them and figure out what % worn they are. If you want any advice post your measurements here.
Bar Stock is a general term used to describe a bit of Bar of unknown length and Dia' it means something that will suite the task in hand, any rusty old bar (round being best here) of good size will do, tube will cut through or crush. tctractors p.s. Its English that is realy English, its tricky?
I used a piece of 2" galvanized water pipe about a foot long. It will crush the end of the pipe a bit but it will work ok for you. When you incert the end of the pipe in between the sprocket and the chain., then back the tractor up. the pipe will pull the slack in the chain back and then it will compress the spring as you back up further. Then you can lube the nut on the threaded rod that runs through the spring and tighten it to hold the spring in the compressed position. Then you can lift out the compressed spring. Look over in the dozier forum, I posted a picture of the process. I will look for it and post a link for you. As you are depending on the rod and nut to hold the weight of the compressed spring load, make damm sure it is in good shape and not rusted out or the threads about half stripped.
On the left hand recoil DMC you don't touch the end nut in any way, remove the front clamps via the bar in the rim thing, touching that nut is a bit to risky for this situation, I have already said my thoughts on pipe stuffed in rims, it's something I never do because of the crush issue, it might be OK but it might fail when your hand or head is in the wrong spot. tctractors
So I picked up a couple of feet of solid round 2" bar at the local steel dealer, had a 3 foot piece for less than I could buy 2' pipe. Went down to the farm and put a big wrench to the nut on the RH spring to see if it was broke, it wasn't. I was able to get the nut to turn maybe one full revolution. I hit it with some PB Blaster and figured let it soak in. Tomorrow I'll take a brush to the thread in order to knock off some of the paint/crud on it so it turns more freely.
First off I have to thank you guys for the advice, instructions. Today I went down, put some tension on the tracks then inserted the 2" round bar in the sprocket and had my son-in-law go slow in reverse. As you all described the spring compressed enough and I removed the remaining stops (the one had its bolts already sheared) then went forward, removed the round bar, let the grease out of the tensioner and pulled the tracks/chain off. Took all of about 15 minutes per side. I then tackled the rail on the left side, with a little persuasion I had the rail off and was working on loosening all the bolts for the rollers. A good majority of the bolts broke loose and didn't snap-off. Looks like I'll only have to drill/re-tap about 4, so out of 40 some bolts that's not too bad as far as I'm concerned. So now I just need to get the word from the gents at Thompson (they are a little cheaper on the quote than OffRoad, by a couple of hundred) on whether they can match up my shoes with a new chain and sprockets. Hopefully early next week I'll either order from Thompson or OffRoad then once I get the sprocket I can work on getting them torched off and the new ones welded on. Again guys (tctractors, Nige, Nitelite and anyone else that offered advice) a big THANKS!! I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow when I go back down.
Being a couple hundred $ cheaper in the Link Groups and sprockets won't mean jack if you need shoes to go with the new parts. Well worth remembering that if you can get link parts that fit your shoes it might be worth paying a couple hundred extra for them.
Sounds like some good progress being made. Just be careful and end the job with all of your fingers still in place.
So far so good, all digits still attached - a bit scraped and bruised but still there. So today I pulled all the rollers off the right side rail, here's a picture of two of them before I pulled them. Question: What are those holes on the rails (just to the left of the roller in the picture) I thought they might be drain holes or something but they are threaded. After I pulled the rollers I set about pulling the tensioner sleeve and "plunger", what a messy job. The picture I took is a little out of focus but I can tell you the greenish rubber portion is pretty chewed up. Since the tractor is going to be out of commission for a while I figured it might be a good time to change the oil. When I bought it the seller said it had just been serviced so I figured I had some time/hours until it needed done. So, on this picture which is the oil drain plug? I put my finger in the one that looks somewhat like a volcano and it felt like there was a round bar in there. The other doesn't look like there's a way to undo it.
No actual plug, should be a hex head on the side to open the valve. I will try to get a picture of my sump I have off my engine.
The drain on mine does have threads for a plug, didn't have one in it though.
What Justin is trying to tell you is that that drain is accessed from the side of the oil pan. In fact, the radiator hard nose has a hole in it, about 1" diameter that lines up with the drain bolt in the side of the oil pan. I think it is a 1/2 drive that fits it, Slide your drain pan under the pan. Poke an extension through the hole in the hard nose and insert it into the fitting. Turn it to the left and oil should start to drain from the bottom drain. Understand, while standing up, work from the side if the tractor through the access hole, you do not need to crawl underneath the tractor to change the oil.
I am pretty sure those rollers are worn over 200% plus. One thing you got the good out of them for sure.
Judging by the photos those rollers might not even be good enough to re-shell, it all depends if they still have oil in them - first thing to do is take the little plug out of the end of the roller shaft and see what comes out. If any roller is dry inside the chances are the shaft will be toast. Cost of shaft + roller shell w/bushes + 2 Duo-Cone seals is likely to be more than the cost of a complete roller, and that's before we start considering those end caps that have holes worn in them by the track links. As another comment on my post #99 above regarding ensuring your existing shoes will fit the replacement track link groups. 38 shoes a side x 2 = 76 shoes @ $20 a pop. That comes to $1,520. Hmmmmmm............ If it means paying $200 extra to get track links that will fit the shoes you plan to re-use I would say it would be money well-spent.
On my loader the hole in question is used for a place to bolt rock guards on.
Nige, Those are the rollers I planned to replace from the start. The others on the other side don't look all that bad, I brushed off some of the dirt and was able to read some info on them, Looks like BERCO CR1317 C Made in Italy. On the shoes/chains. I'm going to talk to Jeff @ offroad and give him the run down on the situation, i.e. aftermarket chains, and see what he says. I totally agree, a few hundred dollars vs $1500'ish is a no-brainer. If necessary I'll send Jeff an outline of the shoes/w bolt pattern.
OK, my bad. I thought you wanted to re-shell where possible. Berco is one of the major aftermarket undercarriage manufacturers in the world. However if you go down the road of re-shelling on the rollers on the opposite side that are in better condition be sure you advise whoever you buy your parts from of any markings you can see on the rollers because the chances are that Cat OEM spare parts will most likely not fit aftermarket-brand rollers. I think you should be able to get chains to fit your existing shoes , it's just a question of being aware of the compatibility issue regarding bolt hole pattern and taking appropriate steps to ensure it doesn't catch you out - i.e. cost you major money. I think it's a good idea to send him a diagram of the track shoe bolt hole pattern plus also give him details of the shoe bolt diameter.
Thanks, I looked it up in the parts book I have and indeed that looks like what they are for. I guess an add on.
Yair . . . dmcschultz On some tractors and applications rock guards can help keep the chains aligned and stop the machine walking out of tracks thus allowing maximum hours on components . . . I guess you didn't need them. (Big grin) Cheers.
So today I did a little research on those Berco rollers on the left (better side). Called Berco up in WI and spoke with Jeff (what is it with guys named Jeff in the industry) and had a good conversation. When I told him about the chains and the logo ( "T" inside a hexagon) he quickly identified them as Topy chains, sure enough when I look up Topy logo it is what is on the chains. We talked about rollers, sprockets and chains and he informed me that it's probably a good idea to get the same brand sprocket and chain since the companies use about the same quality of steel and that the hardness of the steel in those parts should be compatible, otherwise if the sprocket rim is one hardness and the chain a different then one of the two might wear more quickly. Seems to make sense.
They probably would have been a nice addition if they were on the machine when I bought it, but I don't think I can justify adding them at this point - although....
Yeah for some reason mine has one (rock guard) on one side but not on the other. I haven't bothered trying to locate another one. I just try to be real careful when turning hard around rocks and other stuff. As Scrub Puller said, I have walked the chain off mine on the side they weren't on. They would help, but they probably aren't as critical where you are though.
So here's the situation for today. The gents at Thompson didn't feel comfortable sending the material from TN to VA, concerned that if something didn't fit there would be bad feelings, I can completely understand this, but they did provide me a name of a company just down the road a bit. Called those folks and they are a BERCO dealer (same as the rollers that are on the "good" side (left) of my machine) and they have a set of BERCO chains, rims, and rollers (for the right side). The issue is the chains are "dry", non-SALT. So I have a decision that I'm looking for some help with. Are the SALTS really worth an extra $700 per chain for what I'm planning to do with the machine, i.e. approximately 200 hours/year. As I understand it BERCO is one of the better manufacturers so are their "dry" chains comparable to a SALT in terms of longevity/performance. The salesman also said they have someone that does their welding on the new rims - which saves me from having to go find someone and wonder if they've ever done this before. I'd appreciate any wise/sage advice.
Update to my last, the salesman called back and said they had a pair of KBC (Also made in Italy) SALT chains for about $100 more than the "dry" chains. So the question now is whether mixing manufacturers between BERCO and KBC will be an issue, KBC chains with BERCO rims and rollers. I asked the salesman about it and he said the SALTS will give me 300-400 more hours and that mixing between different manufacturers wouldn't be an issue, but I'd somewhat expect that from him.
The only thing I would put a dry chain on is an excavator. They make a lot of noise. A SALT chain should last double what a dry chain will. I think it would be best as well to have the rims and the chain by the same brand. Seems like mix matching rollers and idlers isn't a big deal. I have a set of ITR chains on my tractor and they seem to be okay at this point . About 1000 hrs on them with little wear or noise. The next 1000 might tell another story. Are the KBC Korean , if so I wouldn't use them.
Another vote for SALT, whatever the brand. Also I wouldn't say that mixing brands between rollers & chains will do much. Let's face it you're won't be the first person to have done it......
But what about mixing chains and sprockets??? Any problems there????
Not as far as I'm concerned but others may have differing opinions.
I'd vote for SALT also, and in my opinion nothing wrong with Korean steel. As for the sprockets, there may be some variation but the sprockets will normally be heat treated to match the OEM spec. Also, you get back to your 200 hour a year estimate, it may take ten or fifteen years for you to notice any difference in wear should there be any.
I've decided SALT of course is the way to go. As for Korean steel it appears most of the aftermarket stuff out there is Korean steel with the exception of Berco and the price difference just isn't worth it for the amount of use the machine will get. If I were using it to pay the bills I would certainly consider going with the higher quality/price.
So the parts for my tractor came in. New chains, sprockets and rebuilt rollers (told me they ran out of paint), so now I just need to hook up with the welder they recommended. So I know I need to soak the bolts for the shoes in either diesel or oil, if oil does it matter what type. And I know I need to remove the paint from the top of the rails/chains, and clean the bottom of the shoes - is there anything else I need to do before putting it all back together. Do I need to put anti-seize on any of the bolts, or any other components?? I was planning on changing the oil and other maintenance and when I cleaned off the base of the filler tube I noticed what appeared to be a crack, and it appears someone had put some type of epoxy (JB-weld or something similar) around the crack. The question is can I take that thing off and put a small weld on it or am I looking at a replacement, if so does anyone have the part number, my parts book doesn't cover the engine - why is that. Finally, I noticed what appears to be a grease fitting between the fill tube and the dipstick. It runs around the back of the engine towards I believe the torque converter. So...is it a grease fitting and how often does it need grease, and how do I know when it has enough?
Looks like your track chains have a square bolt pattern. I take it that it matches your track shoe pattern. I would remove the filler tube and weld it, why not remove it, clean it up with a wire brush, and have your sprocket welder weld it when he welds the sprockets? I have no idea about the grease fitting. I put my track bolts in the oil drain pan from where I changed oil and let them sit in the oil until I needed them. Clean off paint on shoe and chain with a heavy duty wire brush on a 4" grinder. A great time saver, if you have one, use a 3/8 air ratchet to start your track chain bolts and nuts. Run them up tight and then go back with your torque multiplier to finish. Don't put the nuts on upside down. The curved edges go against the rail. As far as track bolts, you only need anti seize compound on the eight master shoe bolts. Start them by hand being careful not to cross thread or bind them. All other bolts, roller, track frame etc. need anti seize. That safety yellow paint is an eyesore! You are being nice to your kitty and doing it up right.
I'm not sure what the original weld was between that tube and the flange at the bottom. Maybe it was brazed, that would give the assembly a bit more flexibility in the joint. When welding/brazing I'd suggest tacking the 2 pieces together with it on the machine to ensure you're not straining anything when it's put back - probably why it failed in the first place. You may have to remove it first, clean off all the epoxy, then put the pieces back in place for tacking, then remove it again to make the full weld. A bit painstaking but worthwhile. Your parts book doesn't cover the engine because back in those days the engine was a separate parts book. In addition to what Nitelite's suggested I'd clean all the track shoe hardware before dropping it in a pan of oil or diesel. Dirt in threads will seriously affect your capability to get the bolts tightened correctly. A torque wrench is useless on contaminated threads. Regarding your grease fitting - no idea. Can you follow the hose and find what component it's connected to ..?
I believe that grease fitting goes back to the end of the flywheel for the seal on the back of the plate. I'd give it a pump or two every time you grease the machine.
This might be what it goes to. There are seals that go in the rear cover plate.
Thanks guys. I'll clean and soak the nuts/bolts in an oil bath but since they're brand new out of the box I'm thinking they shouldn't be all that dirty. Is there a particular type of anti-seize I should use?? As for the grease fitting it looks plausible that it goes to the flywheel, that's about where I was able to reach to
The track hardware we used came from Italy in cardboard boxes and had a light oil on everything, probably from the final heat treating step I'm not sure. Anyway, never added anything to that, worked fine. The Deere hardware and CAT hardware we used when we wanted a step up in quality was either dry or had a waxlike coating, always just used 30w, or any motor oil really. YMMV The silver stuff was what we used, along with the field mechanics at that dealership.
If the track bolts are fresh out of the box they shouldn't need anything in the way of lubrication. I would go with copper anti-seize for the master link bolts. The anti-seize should be applied to the threads, the shank of the bolt all the way up to the head, and under the head itself. As well as the normal cleaning you would do underneath the shoe to make sure it sits correctly on the links make sure the spotfaces on the upper face of the shoe where the 4 bolt heads sit are clean and free from any nicks & burrs. Touch them up with a grinder if you have any doubt whatsoever. I guess you could say that comment applies to all the track shoes if you want them to remain tight but it applies double for the master shoes.
So the welder spent all day Friday and Saturday welding on the sprocket rims. IMHO he did a pretty good job for field work, he peened the welds consistently, and the sprockets turn true, within a 1/8inch. Now just waiting for the seals and such for the tensioner that I hope come this week. I've got a few bolts to drill/tap then it all goes back to together. I'm thinking about putting a coat of paint on it, just to make it more presentable. I'm thinking a couple of gallons ought to do it. I'm not taking on the task like Nitelite of pulling the engine and painting the whole kit and caboodle. So, this brings up a couple of questions and request for opinions/advice: The exhaust pipe vents just below the cross bar of the sweeps, it actually doesn't clear it all the way so the flapper doesn't go all the way up (about 90%) and as you can see the exhaust has "painted" the sweeps a nice soot-black. I thought I could move the pipe to just behind the cross bar but the thing didn't seem to want to move, so I was thinking of maybe putting a couple of 45 deg elbows to get it around the cross member. Thoughts??
Yair . . . dmcschultz I would do away with the frog flap and put on long radius or a two segment lobster back 45 directed forward . . . you may have to reduce the height of the existing pipe to let it fit. It looks like you had a nice job done on the sprockets Cheers.
Thanks, I'm not familiar with a "two segment lobster" - can you point me to a few pictures to get an idea as to what one looks like, with that maybe I can call the parts guys and see if they can hook me up with one
Two possibilities come to mind 1. Turn the rain flap around 180 degrees so that it's lifting up in such a way that it kinda protects the crossbar on the sweeps. 2. Replace the rain flap with a slash-cut end pipe facing towards the rear of the machine that would direct the exhaust gas away from the crossbar completely.
I'd vote for the #2 Unless you like the rattle of the rain cap.
Yair . . . dmcshultz. A "lobster back" is a bend fabricated from segments of pipe, they can be as simple or as elaborate as you choose . . . . I always prefer exhausts exiting forward. By "slash-cut" Nige means the outlet end should be cut at a forward angle to afford some protection from rain if you forget to cover the exhaust. Cheers.
OK guys now I get it. I'm thinking the "slash-cut" is kind of like what an car exhaust pipe looks like, longer on the top to help keep rain out. I'll have to start the search to find the right pipe, maybe try my hand at cutting a "lobster" and welding it up. Since I'm in the repair-replace-maintenance mode I'm thinking I should go ahead and remove/clean the transmission filter screen and re-connect the hour meter (the PO cut the wire and put a wire nut on it and I can't find the ground wire to it), so I have a couple of questions: Do I need to drain the transmission fluid to remove/clean (possibly replace) the transmission filter screen? From my parts book it looks like the screen is on the lower right side of the transmission, so what's the best way to get to it, from under the machine? or from the side? or up top? Anything I should look out for when doing this? From my book it says the transmission takes 21.5 gals, that seems like a whole lot. What's the recommendation on replacing the fluid, i.e. do I need to use CAT brand or can I use the transmission fluid from Tractor Supply? I'm not sure when the PO changed it so I'm thinking it's probably a good idea at this point. On the hour meter the parts book says there is a switch between the meter and the hot side of the alternator, where would that switch be located? I looked around in the engine compartment but couldn't see anything obvious. And what is the purpose of the switch, to go from 24 volt to 12?
Should be a pressure switch to only turn the hour meter on when she's running. Isn't that old enough to have a mechanical service meter running off the injection pump?
Nice job on the sprockets! You sure are being nice to your kitty. It should serve you well for a long time. Two gallons of paint should do the job. Before you take the lid off of the transmission filter clean it, and around it, really good to keep dirt and grime from falling down into the tranny when trying to remove the filter. Tight fit to remove the filter.
Regarding transmission oil you certaintly don't need to use Cat oil. Any SAE30 oil meeting Cat TO-4 specification will work fine. I have no idea if the oil you mention from Tractor Supply meets TO-4 BTW, you'll need to check. Otherwise all the major oil companies make a TO-4 oil. The 21.5 gallons is approximate only, always fill to the dipstick using the conditions on the stick (engine stopped with oil cold or engine at Low Idle with warm oil).
Yep, I'd say he earned his two day's pay. I recall from your posts about using CAT paint and a 5% acetone/5% mineral spirits to thin the paint but I thought I also read somewhere about NAPTHA. Out of the two acetone or naptha which do you think did better? I'm leaning towards the CAT paint, at somewhere around $40/gal that's comparable to the $25 paint, $15 catalyst/hardener and $8 reducer from Tractor Supply. I'll give the boys at CAT a yell and see what they have.
I've done some searching and have found a couple of options, but boy that TO-4 spec oil certainly isn't cheap is it. But then again I suspect a new transmission isn't cheap either.
Regard oil as cheap insurance. whatever the cost of the oil you can generally multiply that by something in the region of 1-200 to get the value of the system it's protecting.
NAPTHA will work just fine to thin the cat paint for spraying. It is comparable to gasoline. I chose to use a hotter thinner because it will actually etch the old paint to achieve a tighter bond. Too much acetone will burn up the paint causing a dull powdery finish. The more gloss you have, the tougher the paint job.
I'm pretty sure I found the transmission filter (bottom right side on the front of the transmission) and the plug is right there in the center but I have a question about the torque converter - there appears to be a plug at the bottom so I assume it can be drained from there but how is it refilled? I'm thinking the transmission will pump the oil into the converter - is this right or am I totally off base.
Transmission & converter all share the same oil so in the strictest sense it's not necessary to pull the plug from the converter when changing oil. I would though, just to take a look and see what sort of particles (if any) there actually are in the bottom of the converter housing.
So the weather was finally decent enough to work on the CAT. We were able to get the frame back on the right side and a couple of rollers (had some issue with one of the rebuilt rollers not fitting) so now I need to finish up drilling out the dowels that held in the spring stops. Do you guys have any suggestions on how to drill this out. I've used everything from the Harbor Freight Titanium Nitrite tipped to Bosch TN tipped and even some silver deming bits and they barely made a dent. I've probably spent about 20 hours trying to drill out those dowels and they're still there. Brand new bits right out of the package don't make a dent, maybe a little dust. Any ideas??
Heat them with a welding tip and then let them cool out slowly? Should take some hardness out and maybe shrink them a bit.
So the new rails are on and as Nitelite experienced these things are super stiff. Do they loosen up after a little use? I hope so. The tensioner is all the way back and the rails seem awfully tight, no slack what so ever on them. I'm thinking that maybe the paint that's on the rails and sprockets might be adding a little bit to the issue, figure even 1/32" thickness of paint over 38 or so bushings is a little over an 1". So I'll put the shoes back on and finish up the painting this week.
The SALT track has seals on each end of the bushing, and typically sintered metal thrust rings. When assembled new they're pressed tight and often quite stiff, and even though it seems incorrect, it's not. The will loosen up some, but what little resistance there is there is nothing compared to moving the machine on flat ground, so don't worry about it.
Today I changed the transmission fluid and ran the ol' gal for about 20 minutes just to get things loosened up a bit. The rails are still pretty tight with virtually no slack. I did notice something strange and I'm a bit perplexed, it seems things got a little worse with the transmission. Before changing the rails, sprocket, etc... and transmission fluid while in reverse when I shifted to second gear there was a noticeable increase in speed, going to third the speed remained pretty much the same. Now though second is barely different than first and when I shift to third the machine comes to a stop after a few seconds. Could this be due to the rails being so tight, or is there another culprit??