I recently acquired my first (2) pieces of heavy. One is a CAT 955K 1970. Previous owner said it ran great when he parked it. After it Sat for a year he went to move it and it would turn over but not start. So it Sat another year and Now I have it. He also said that it has 80 hrs on a New block replacement because his buddy ran it hot and cracked the other. What I have done so far......brought the (2) massive CAT batteries back to life and they are holding steady at 11-12 volts. Put fresh diesel in. Primed it. Put (2) gallons of antifreeze in. Still won't run. Fuel filter is full of diesel. I cracked open each fuel line at the injector and pumped the primer and fuel sprays out of each. It turns over and over and nothing, no smoke or anything. Also I used a half a can of ether with no affect. I also added 3 qrts of oil and the oil is not milky. I should also mention that the exhaust pipe was wide open and I don't know for how long. Oh and I also took the intake pipe off to confirm the turbo wheel is freely spinning and it is. Gauges don't appear to work at all. Please if you can give me some ideas on what to try next or what am I missing to get this machine going, thanks.
Only thing I see wrong is the batteries should be 12.5v minimum. 11 or 12 is way too low. On the other hand if it turns over good, then maybe your voltmeter is the problem, not the batteries. " I cracked open each fuel line at the injector and pumped the primer and fuel sprays out of each. " so the injector lines spray fuel from just pumping the primer? or when cranking over? Just curious, I don't know what that would mean in this case, just seemed odd. Any glow plugs on that thing?
I don't know about this particular machine, but a lot if machines of that vintage you need to open the throttle up to turn the fuel on. Old front-end loaders you just press the accelerator pedal down. I'm thinking tctractors has said before that the fuel pump will leak fuel through and out the injector lines with the throttle closed? You need to be getting fuel up to the injectors while cranking.
Leave the ether alone. You should be getting smoke out the exhaust if it's getting fuel. My 931B I usually start a little under 1/2 throttle. Once warm it will idle slower but cold needs more throttle till it keep running at low idle.
I'm not getting any smoke when it turns over. What can cause the fuel to make it to the injectors but not to the cylinders? Also glow plugs are no good, wires are broke off them.
Also throttle has to be on for it to start according to what's stamped where the throttle is.
Are you getting fuel at the injectors while cranking?
Didn't check that, I will tomorrow. Let's say I am not, what would be the issue?
Loosen the lines AT the injectors.. all of them.. Hold the throttle wide open.. crank the engine.. Fuel should squirt out the end of the lines w/ some pressure.. IF they don't and it just dribbles.. it could be the control rack in the injection pump is stuck in the shut-off position.. Get the GLOW PLUGS FIXED 1st..
Agree with those that say don't even think of ether! If you are not seeing white smoke while cranking you are not getting fuel to the cylinders. Never seen a 955, do they have a foot throttle like a front end loader or a hand throttle like a dozer? Okay, checked SIS it is hand control for governor, when moved from stop to run position does it snap in and out of the detent? Might have to move all the way to full fuel position to get it to go "snap". If it is not snapping in and out could be a linkage problem. Try working it at the injection pump itself, may need to disconnect the linkage to be sure. If it is snapping in and out but still no white smoke while cranking thepumpguysc is probably right about the control rack in the pump. Maybe he could give you some ideas on freeing it up, might need a picture of the pump so he is sure which style you have. Even if you do start to see the white smoke while cranking, which would mean you finally have fuel being injected, you really need to get those glow plugs working. Even when new at any thing under 60ºF that engine needed them to start good. Here's the chart that should be on the machine some place: Just did a quick check on SIS about that wiring harness that connects to the glow plugs, part number 7N9634, it shows as being available and only $49.00 so no reason to mess around trying to stat without it working. Of course you will need to test the glow plugs. Don't have the spec's for the glow plugs in a 3304 or what engine you may have but the specks for a glow plug in another larger Cat engine show as 4.5 ohms each and they draw approx. 6.5 amps each at 24 volts that should be close enough to let you know if they should be working
A 955K 1970 model would be a 85J2528 to 85J3483 s/n with D330cT engine. 3304 didn't come in until s/n 85J6247 Glow plug harness is a 5S8480 Glow plugs are 1P7324
Thanks for the help. I'm headed out to work on it now. I will update you guys on what happened when I try what you told me. I will also get some pics. Thank you very much.
Guess I should have asked for a s/n before saying too much, I had just took a wild guess and picked the middle of the list on SIS, 71J , sorry!:crazy:badidea And that correct part number for the wires is actually a bit less money About $39.00! And it is actually in stock at my local Cat house!
My secret trick is to pour a little gas on a rag. And hold it up to the air intake. Make sure the rag doesn't get sucked into the engine. Works 4x better than ether and doesn't knock. Gets that diesel moving toward the pistons. Use at your own risk, but it works for me. Got me out of a jam, when I was stuck in the middle of no where. Bad injector pump, but got the truck running and back 300 miles to the nearest parts store. I'm sure some here might say not to do this.
Ok guys just found the serial number finally. After aggressively cleaning the plate the number is 85c7815.....correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that mean that this machine is actually a 955L with a 3304 engine? If so use the information I gave you earlier and see if it makes a difference in trouble shooting. Btw I cracked the fuel lines at the injectors and turned the engine over, all lines push fuel out, the second back appears to be pushing a lot of air bubbles out also, the others straight fuel, thanks.
Correction, the serial starts 85J, not 85C.
If you added fresh fuel to the old fuel, your wasting your time.. gotta drain it, drain the filters and start again.. Pull the glow plugs, put 12-24volts to them +on top, - on body.. count to 10-15 and if they aren't glowing red/white hot, throw them away. Once the gp's are sorted out, reinstall.. take a volt meter and see if your getting voltage TO THEM..with the gp's activated, either w/ the key or push button.. If not, you can either waste a lot of time figuring it out or just run a hot wire to the first or last one, closest one.. it will feed the rest.. hold the wire on for a 30 sec count and try to start the engine.. watch the exhaust and report back. DONT USE either or gasoline while using the gp's.. bad things will happen..
Yes, 85J6247 would be a 1972 model 955L with 3304 engine. Still would have the compact fuel injection pump. Still uses the 5S8480 glow plug wiring harness and 1P7324=3T9562 glow plugs.
Well just took a look at SIS and it says a 85C prefix is for a 6A&6S bulldozer, note in Cat speek a bulldozer does not refer to the tractor part just the blade and operating equipment. Guess I replied too soon oh well, no extra charge for that!
This assumes the harness connecting them together is in good condition, but on many of the older ones I've seen the wire ends are broken off the wires or the ends them self are worn out and will not hold on to the glow plugs. Like I mentioned if that is the case this new harness assembly is relatively cheap at around $40.00
I know what you mean K.. but that's all we can do.. is assume.. 40.00.. that's a case of beer, some fireworks and a cheap steak.. on a holiday.. lol Happy New Year, fellas..
I'm sure you've already checked this but does your engine have a decompression lever that could have been activated? On my 977H there's a small lever on the back of the cylinder head. I'm just thinking this since you said that there's no effect when you give it a whiff of ether...
Ok here's an update, glow plugs are shot so I'm going tomorrow if it rains and grab a new set along with a new wiring harness. I drained all the fuel, removed the fuel line and flushed it out. Tossed the old fuel filter and replaced it after filling it with fresh diesel. Engine still turns over but doesn't crank. Although now I am getting white smoke out of the exhaust as it turns over so I'm assuming things are getting better.
White smoke out the stack while cranking is a very good sign, means there is a 90% or better chance that the pump and injectors are working at least a little! Did you happen to sniff the smoke? Did it burn your eyes a little like it should? Any chance you could set up a camera/cellphone to record what it does after you heat the new glow plugs for a couple of minutes then hit the stater? I'm expecting a lot of nasty soot and smoke for a couple minutes!
A little late in the piece but better late than never .......... By the sounds of it you're getting somewhere now that you have smoke coming out of the chimley. Maybe now would be a good time to look at the batteries, cables, & connections right the way to the starter to make sure that it's actually spinning the motor over at the speed it ought to. Increasing the cranking RPM by something like 10-20 RPM could probably be all it needs now to light the fires. Oh, and BTW a fully-charged 12v battery should register close to 13v (12.8v IIRC) if it's in good shape. Try having someone put a meter on each battery in turn while you're cranking the starter and see what they are turning out voltage-wise when they are under load.
The smoke did burn my eyes a little and smelled like an old car that's been in a barn and burning old gas when it fires up. (Best way I can explain it) I'm changing glow plugs tomorrow and the wiring harness to make sure that's not an issue any further. The thought did cross my mind about not getting enough cranking rpms out of the batteries. I think that because they are holding 11 volts that they are good and the problem may be that all I have to charge them is a car charger and may require something bigger.
Themaskman72, I just purchased the older brother of your machine (mine is 85J1360). When I went to look at it, it had been sitting for about 6 months (and had sat for a year before that). They had charged up the batteries and I checked all the fluids before cranking. Two minutes on the glow plugs and she puffed out about two puffs and started right up! A couple of minutes later the other owner showed up and we raised the boom and locked it to get a better look at some things. I shut the engine down as I didn't want to be mucking about under the hood with it running. Went to start it back up and didn't give it enough time on the preheat as well as forgot to put the fuel lever to start. Cranked it a few seconds before realizing and correcting the fuel mistake, cranked a few more times, no smoke, and the batteries were already too low. Not enough RPM. They connected the large 24V charger and we gave it about 20 mins before trying again--successfully. Just goes to show you how sensitive they are to those batteries being full-up! The compression of the air in the cylinder as the piston rises is what heats it above the ignition point of the diesel. If that piston goes up too slowly, too much heat is lost to the cold block and head! If you start with cold air, your done for. Sounds like you are close, but be sure it spins fast enough. I have that same problem on my two diesel tractors which don't have preheat. Best of luck!
Thanks Jim, that's great information especially when you pretty much have the same machine and it Sat for a while. This confirms exactly what the other guys here have been telling me about making sure the batteries are up enough and how important the glow plugs are to this machine. I am so glad to be a part of this forum and hope I can pay it forward. Thanks and I will have an update after charging the batteries and fixing the glow plugs.
A prechamber engine WITHOUT working glow plugs will absorb more heat from the engine compression than a direct injection diesel will. The whole reason they make prechambers and glow plugs is to make the engine start easier and run smoother, but the design is worse for starting if the GP's aren't working. The smell sounds like stale fuel, once you get fresh fuel out the injectors it will start easier than the stale stuff. Holding 11V is not enough, any battery that you charge up and it's not at least 12.5 a day later is complete junk. 11v is not 80% or 50%, it's recycle time. If this is a 12V system, it should start on a decent warm car battery, just give it plenty of time to charge up between short cranks.
I need to work on my linkage but manage to get it fired up anyway. I take the throttle handle and pull it back kind of hard, it only goes back so far. This is the spot where the dedent is and the fuel is allowed to flow. Sometimes when it has sat for a while, I have to keep some pressure pulling it to the rear to get it to fire. My guess is the pump needs some work and the flow spot is not quite where it needs to be. Once the engine fires up the handle can be moved further back and rpms increased
The throttle is pin locked (Pegged) until the oil pressure is raised, you might have other issues? tctractors.
Ok so here's where I am after today. Got the new glow plugs and installed them. Checked the volts on the glow plug supply wire while holding the heat switch on and was getting 25.2 volts. Attached it to the glow plug wiring harness and was getting 25.2 volts at each terminal. Attached harness to the New glow plugs and with the heat switch on voltage dropped to 22.4 volts. Held the heat for 2 mins and turned it over but still no start. Getting bigger puffs of smoke but no running yet. Had battery charger on batteries the whole time. I think the batteries are done. Gonna grab a couple more and go from there.
Do you think its turning over around fast enough? If it gets good and cold (everyone will holler) but I remove the intake top off the pre-filter, and while its cranking over I hit it with some either. I don't spray it straight in, I'm sitting in the seat. hold can just at my chest and I spray it over the top of the pre-filter intake.
I think you're close and you just need new fuel to the injectors. Too late now, but in hindsight you could have cranked it over with the lines loose at the injectors and the glow plugs out to purge the old fuel from the lines. Fresh #1 diesel and heating up the block will help it start. 80 hours on it might not even be enough to break in the engine, so you're at a disadvantage there too. 25.2 is 12.6 per battery if they're even, that's worth checking. The voltage drop at the glow plugs is normal because they draw so much amps. Hopefully the batteries stayed closer to 25v with the GP's on. If these batteries were in the machine sitting for 2 years, they'd be a miracle to still be in good shape.
I wouldn't do that with while using the glow plugs!! My old 988 when it got really cold like below 10 degrees Fahrenheit we had to use ether and no glow plugs. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I'd ether it and it will start and clear out the old fuel.
Agree, I don't do it with glow plugs, only (to keep it short) if other things are not working out That said I think there may be other issues because OP said he used a can of either and nothing
I definitely feel like it's not turning over fast enough. My truck wouldn't even think about starting at that pace. I tried to revive those batteries but think it was a failure. I found them remanned for 160/ea so gonna go that direction so I can check that off the list.
It might be worth slackening off the injector lines at the tips, then with the throttle in the shut off position pump the fuel primer, you don't have to as the fuel will self bleed, this will just remove any doubt about all injectors being fuel primed. tctractors
160 each sounds high, are those huge 8t size or something like that? Somebody here suggested going to your local truck dealer and buying the 750 CCA in either post or threaded stud terminal, whichever you need. The logic being, they sell a lot of batteries so they're fresh, a standard size so a better price, and the 750 amp lasts a lot longer than the higher CCA's because it has thicker plates, more room or whatever.
I would suggest buying from CAT, bought some from NAPA which didn't hold up. Always thought CAT would be to high, but their maintenance free 8D battery was cheaper then NAPA and far better made Edit: your correct Nige they are 4D
I'd vote for Cat batteries as well. Not the cheapest but the class of the field IMHO. The listed battery for that particular machine is a 9X-9720 (140amp-hr/1000CCA) or a 153-5700 (145amp-hr/1100CCA) if you want a maintenance-free option. If you go for a "will-fit" battery the BCI frame size is a 4D which is 20-3/4" x 8-3/4" x 9-7/8" (L x W x H).
I won't disagree with going with the Cat batteries. OEM always last way longer than replacement batteries in my experience. If you do, let me know what they cost from Cat. My thinking is that 2x 750CCA is more than enough to start this engine for five years as long as it's above freezing. In North Carolina he's probably not going to need it when it's freezing. Half the cost and you can lift the batteries in with one hand, so you can take them inside overnight if you NEED to start the thing at 0.
Well I checked price at local dealer for 9X-9720s and it shows about $240.00 each but says call for availability.
Even my old Allis needs 1000cca batteries for a worn slick engine to spin up. I am using four group 31 12V batteries as they put in large trucks, in series parallel for 24v and as much amps as I can get.
If you can, look for the maintenance free one, It has a number like 157-xxxx and it cost less. The CAT parts guy just started looking for the latest battery instead of the model which came with it. My loader is not here right now or I would look on top of it.
The 2 that are in it now are 9x9730, could I just get (2) 1000 cca like I run in my truck and work? I can get those reman for 45.
I also do not care for reman batteries, new seem to last longer and get weak later then the reman units. I tried 'seconds' ONCE, will not happen again as they lasted but two years.
I'm sure we understand the money issue, batteries are high. The remans if they do work, they won't last long. The new bat was rated at 1000 cca, but the remain will be less. The cca comes from the size plates inside and the reman is not a remove everything and replace with new like in a motor. So maybe to find out if you can get it running, is pull some bats out of other equipment and place them in parallel with the ones currently being used. An additional note: After rebuilding my D3 the motor would not turn over very fast. Got a new bat, used jumpers, had the starter looked at and nothing helped. Bought a new starter and fixed the issue.
Update....I found (2) New batteries for 160/ea. Not remans. I got those and now it turns over way better. Still not starting up. Now I am getting smoke coming out from around the 3rd injector back. What does this mean?
For me, I'm thinking a cracked or rusted out exhaust manifold. Had to replace my manifold right after picking it up
Think you need to get a good look at exactly where the smoke is coming from, is it right next to where the fuel line connects or is it like Alldodge says a crack in manifold or bad gasket near there. Did you manage to get the new glow plugs and wiring fixed? If not even a perfect running pre-chamber engine will not fire up without help much below 70º and one with at least some old fuel in it and what not would be lucky to fire at 90º
Yep, New glow plugs installed, wiring harness fixed, smoke looks like it's coming from under the injector.
Probably goes w/o sayin' but.. are you sure your getting voltage TO the gp's?? Just because you pushed the button or turned the key to activate them, doesn't mean they're getting hot.. Now you know everything is new, just put a cheapo test lite on one and SEE if it lites.. Better yet, if you have a volt meter, check to SEE what the voltage is on the last one in line.. good luck.. heres to hopin it fires.. :drinkup
Yes I put that in an earlier update, I was getting 25.2 volts on each gp connection and 22.7 volts on each while connected to the gp. Now that I have good batteries and it's actually turning over at the rpm's it should I'm getting big puffs of white smoke right away. I think that it's time to take the fuel lines off and pull the injectors for inspection and testing and go ahead and change all The seals. I'm assuming that if I'm getting smoke from under the injector that obviously I'm losing compression so that will prevent it from running. I didn't mention that the whole top side of the body has been removed and setting beside the machine and I have no idea how long it's been exposed like that so I'm thinking that all the rainy days could have easily had water setting on top of the engine and dry rotted some of the gaskets and seals that are on the top side of the engine.
How about a picture of where this "smoke under the injector" is coming from? Point at the exact spot with a screwdriver or finger. Even better would be a link to a video showing it while it is being cranked over. Like they say a picture is worth 1,000 words and an actual video would probably be 100 times better! Even if there is a compression leak on one injector it should fire and start one the other 3 cylinders, might run like crap but should at least try to run. You did hold the glow plugs on for a good long time, I'd double the time shown in that chart I posted seeing this is a long sleeping engine with probably some nasty old fuel still in places. Actually if this is a pre-chamber engine there are nozzles down in the pre-chambers not actually injectors like on a direct injection engine but that is getting too fussy about terminology!
It's close to starting, don't go off on a tangent chasing this leaky injector seal. You'll want to fix it eventually, but that's not keeping this from running. Fresh #1 diesel, block heater, a bottle of cetane boost is all you can do to help it now.
A battery should have 2.2 volts per cell.
Ok here's an update, haven't had time to work on the 955L until today and like I said I was dead set on pulling the injectors and seeing why smoke was coming from underneath. I removed the fuel lines, and pulled the injectors, I'm gonna try and post pics so my friendly experts on here can explain what I got.
Hook them back up, OUTSIDE the engine and watch to SEE if they are fireing.. Don't get close, the spray can get into you skin and its a trip to the hospital.. just stand back/sit in the cab and watch to see if they are fireing fuel. I was going to say>> I KNOW WHY its not starting.. its all that white **** all over the engine.. clean that off, and maybe it'll start.. Its going to be 70* on Wendsday so I'm not too familiar w/ that kind of debris.. Lol
How tight were the chambers..? FYI the "after" photo at the bottom of the page is what you need to be aiming for ......... HeavyEquipmentForums
Counting them from front to back, (1) was very tight, (2) is the one that the center section screwed out of instead of the whole thing, (3) was loose, (4) was very tight.
Let me guess, #3 was the one where the smoke was blowing from when the engine was turning over..?
You pulled a bit more than the "injectors"! Those big things are the pre-combustion chambers I"m guessing you got a flood of coolant when you pulled that first one! You really need to get any coolant that went down in the cylinder out before you reinstall the chambers. Otherwise you are going to be starting a new thread asking why the engine locked up when you tried to start it. Or worse you will be asking why those inside engine parts are now outside the engine! The actual "nozzle" is the little part between the red lines in the following picture: Do you have the proper tool to reinstall the chambers and torque them to spec.? Also do you have the procedure on installing them so the glow plugs are positioned correctly? You did find the washers that were around the threaded part of the chamber, right? Sometimes they stick to the chamber and some times they are stuck on the threaded end of the chamber. In the picture with the three chamber it looks like the two end ones have the washer and the other one does not. Actually Cat calls them "Gaskets". And yes as Nige says go to that link and that is how clean the hole in the head needs to be as well as the chambers and nozzles. When you unscrew the nozzles from the adapters the fuel line connect to make sure no crap get inside them, there is a fine screen make sure it does not have any dirt or crap on it. I don't know about these days but back in the day when these pre-chamber engines were the latest and greatest the dealers had a simple test stand they could put the nozzles in to do a quick test to see if they were working proper, might be worth asking. They would usually not charge for the test back then as they would find one or two that needed replacing.
I didn't get any signs of coolant anywhere when I pulled them out, actually it looks as dry and rusty down in there just like the radiator when I first looked in it before I added coolant. These things look so nasty and corroded that I would guess this is the problem with my no start. I'm gonna clean them all and the ports in the head like the pic. I do not have the tool to reinstall the chambers. Do you think it would be a good idea to buy new chambers? I don't know the procedure yet to make sure glow plugs are in correct location but I do have pics for that reason so I know where they are supposed to end up.
First off there's no coolant in the head. Was the radiator full? Second and I don't want to be mean but I think your in way over your head. First you need to get a manual and a parts book read it before diving in. That way you have some idea whats going on.
LOL this is turning out to be a mess! No coolant in the head, now the precups are out. Can this get any worse? I hope at least you kept the precup spacers with the proper cup, and know which hole they were pulled from. You may be over your head at this point.
I have the "pre cup" spacers because they are rusted to the pre cups. I don't understand why you think I am way over my head. I own a construction company but I have always did my own mechanic work, that includes my diesel and gas trucks. This caterpillar engine is unchartered territory for me hence the reason I joined this forum and was seeking help from the great people here who know this engine or have experienced the same problems I am having. Over my head? It really doesn't seem hard to buy a special little tool to put the precombustion chambers back in so that the glow plugs are In the right spot and if not to change the spacer on the bottom with a different one that's in my kit. I really appreciate all the awesome help that I have received this far. Btw I did number each pre cup when I pulled it but that's really erelvant because I think I'm just gonna buy all New ones since they're only about 100 bucks and the tips are only about 100 bucks so I feel it will be safer with New equipment instead of using this abused stuff.
Also, I added 4 gallons of coolant to the radiator when I first started this project.
Far be it from me to cast apersions, but it appears that you are in over your head .......... check out the illustration below. See the 2 red lines pointing to the "cavity" that surrounds the precombustion chamber. Guess what that cavity is supposed to be filled with..? If you said coolant you win a cookie, and you win a 2nd cookie if you come to the conclusion that the coolant is going to run from the cavity into the cylinders if you don't at least partially drain the cooling system before removing the PC chambers. If there was no coolant in that area when you pulled the chambers then the cooling system was not full and you were VERY lucky indeed ......... If you're prepared to spend a few hundred $ on parts why not part with $165 and buy a Service Manual to help you with stuff like this. You'll be glad you did in the long run. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Caterpill...153a9df&pid=100623&rk=5&rkt=6&sd=152001393235
Ok I understand that there was supposed to be coolant around the pre cups, when I got the machine it was bone dry, yes I did get lucky that it was dry when I pulled the precups, that being said I understand that a service manual would be very helpful but you have to understand that I'm working under the pretext that this machine was running fine when parked. I didn't have any idea I would be disassembling as much as I have. I thought this forum was for people like me "uneducated in this area" to get assistance from people who know not get mocked. I build custom homes, can you do it? Yes you can but if you had a friend like me to help you along the way with things you don't know well that will make it a lot smoother and save you lots of money and time from getting schooled on it. It wouldn't be nice for me to mock you and tell you that you need to go to school on building houses when you ask me a question that is simple to me,but complex to you like how to design and cut step treads for a specific area. I'm here asking for assistance on this machine and so far the advice has been great and I appreciate it...but please don't mock me and enjoy the fact that you get to spread your knowledge and educate someone who appreciates what you have to offer. Bottom line is I'm gonna get this machine running and I don't care what I have to do or what mistakes I learn from along the way but I'm not going to pay anyone to do it for me.
I agree with Nige, you are actually lucky this engine failed to start! If there was no water/coolant seen inside the head when you removed the chambers and it had started I'd say you would have been guaranteed at the least of having a cracked head. Actually if those chamber unscrewed while you tried to loosen the nut under the fuel line that holds the nozzle adapter in the chamber I would be worried that the head was already cracked! You really need to find out why there was no water in there before going any further! I would suggest cleaning down inside the head real good and look for cracks, most likely going from the threaded hole towards the exhaust valve. If there are no cracks then once I found out why there was no water in the head I would just clean up those chambers and look them over real good if only a little light rust on the outside I would just reuse them at least for now. You do need to get the tool to reinstall them and don't assume that if you use the same thickness spacer/gasket they will end up in the right place. Either get the book, the best money you could spend right now, or private message me and I could send you the procedure. If those nozzles are $100.00 each these days I would be asking the dealer to test them before spending the money but it's your money spend it as you like. Heck I knew some of the guys at the dealer back in the day would test new nozzles before installing them in an engine! Edit: I don't read any of the remarks above as trying to "MOCK" you just a few of us who have been around these machines and engines for many years and know what works and what doesn't. I built the hose I live in and I did ask and get lots of help from "oldtimers" friends and relatives and never felt they were mocking me just because they told me something I was thinking of doing was wrong or unsafe. One more point is that if this machine only sat for one year and ran great when parked why was the cooling system dry? Does not sound right. I find it hard to believe someone would drain the system just because it was going to be parked for a time. Or was this original operator running it with straight water in the cooling system and he was worried about it freezing. If that is the case I would be worried about several other problems that may be waiting to eat up your money.
Who was mocking you..? If that's what you think then you either must have a really thin skin or don't understand my English sense of humour. I agree if you have the skills (but maybe not the detailed knowledge) then why should you pay someone to do what you can do yourself..? What a number of people here have tried to do is help you in what, on the face of it, should have been a relatively simple process to get a non-running engine up and running - especially something as simple as a 3304PC. However you've failed to help yourself by going in there whirling spanners without the knowledge of the consequences could be. For example if you had suggested removing the PC chambers here before you actually went ahead and did it then someone would have said "Whoa, hold up a minute. You need to do a, b, c, first". Now you have got to where you are as Ken said you need to figure out where the coolant went if the radiator was full at one time. Any sign of an external leak..? If no then you are looking internal and it'll either be a cracked cylinder head or something lower down. I agree with Ken that there's probably nothing wrong with those PC chambers that a good clean wouldn't cure. They will need new seals and obviously the correct spacers at the bottom to make sure the orientation of the chambers comes out correctly once they are tight. When they are back in place I would vote for filling up the cooling system with water and figure out some way of testing it to ensure that it is actually holding pressure. That would be the obvious next step.
First let me apologize for saying I felt like you were mocking me. I have gotten a new spacer kit for the pre cups after I researched the process of reinstalling them and what they need to be torque and where the glow plug hole needs to be located. I understand that part. I a Have also been very curious why it didn't have any coolant. There are no obvious leaks externally, there is no coolant in the oil, I am going to clean it real good today and reinstall The nozzles and chambers and see if I can't get enough pressure to get coolant through the system. If it has a thermostat I'm going to also change that as I think with all the rust in the system it is prob froze up. I will update later and thanks for your assistance.
Just for giggles have a look inside under the valve cover breather cap and the rockers. Se if there is any rust
I already did that and I don't see any rust, just oil.
I thought afterwards about the loose PC chamber. Is that where the smoke was coming from or was it one of the other cylinders..? If it was the loose one then maybe, just maybe, it was blowing compression past the thread. If it was one of the others where the smoke was blowing then the first conclusion is a cracked cylinder head. It's starting to look like this is a "make haste slowly" type of project that's going to need to advance one step at a time, eliminating all the possibilities at any given stage before moving forward.
Yes it was the loose pc where the smoke was blowing through, I am gonna take your advice and use the same pc's. I'm gonna attach a pic of them cleaned up and I don't see any cracks.
Is there anywhere near you that does sand blasting or (better still) bead blasting..? That would be the best way to clean them without being too aggressive. You will also need a thread tap to clean the threads in the cylinder head, not only where the loose chamber was but all of them. That way you can be sure the torque you are applying is tightening the chamber and not fighting against corroded/carboned threads. Before reinstalling the chambers if I was you I'd poke something down each of the holes until it touched the top of the piston (turn the engine over to get the pistons closer to TDC if it helps) and see if it came out wet. If whatever you poke down comes out wet you then have the challenge of sucking out whatever is in there before reinstalling the chambers. A borescope would be an ideal tool if you can beg, borrow, or steal one. When ksh was talking about looking for cracks he meant (or at least I think he meant) in the cylinder head itself from the threaded hole where the chamber screws in towards one or other of the valves. Go back a couple of pages to that link I posted and check out Post #43. The bottom photo is what you need to be aiming for, only when the seat is really clean will you be able to see if there are any cracks in the head. Do this for all 4 holes, not just the one where the chamber was loose....
Yes I was going to clean the head up really good like the photo link you posted and also look for cracks around the holes in the head. I do know someone who has a bore scope that I can use to make sure the cylinder aren't wet, good idea.
Nige, yes sorry if I was not 100% clear on that, cracks running radially out from the center of the threaded hole. Just about every engine I came across with loose pre-chambers had cracks in that area. Problem is that seeing them with head on may be difficult. Another question, how bad were the o`rings around the top of the chambers? I seem to recall that Cat used white o`rings in that area that would turn to mush if an engine was overheated. But even is those o`rings were damaged there still should have been some coolant inside the head. How about something else to check? Open the drain valve on oil pan and see if there is any water or coolant sitting in the bottom of the pan. If this engine does not have a valve but has just a drain plug just loosen it enough to let it drip. Sitting parked for a year in a probably humid climate I would not be surprised to see a little water. But if it comes out green like antifreeze that's another story. The lack of any coolant has me worried there is much more to this story we have not seen at this time. The nasty condition of the chambers and inside of the head does not make me feel confident about the long term life of this engine. Of course like I've been told more than once all it takes is time and money to fix just about any problem. All depends on how much of each one wants to spend.
Oh trust me, Im not mocking you in the least! Its just Ive seen this scenario many times and more times than not, it becomes a basket case. There is a lot of special tools, torque specs, clocking precups and such, it can get more expensive than you anticipate in a hurry. I and the others will help you as much as we can, but you also have to realize your limits. I admire the fact that you are hands on for sure, not many would even attempt to tackle such a project with little to no service specs and tooling.
and if you put 4 gallons of coolant in the radiator before starting this project, it had to go somewhere. The system was either not completely full, or the coolant is somewhere it shouldn't be. I agree with Ken, crack the drain plug or valve at the oil drain, and see if you have antifreeze there, or somewhere on the ground. It may be in the belly pan also.
Too be honest I have enjoyed working on this machine, I find it easier than working on my trucks. Everything is easy to get to and simple with no computer stuff. I love learning New stuff and you guys have been great teachers. There isn't any coolant on the belly pan, I'm guessing it wasn't full to begin with. I will have a better idea when I get the pre cups back in and the nozzles.
I also want to say I wasn't mocking you. I'll ask the same question as Kshansen how bad were the o`rings around the top of the chambers? I had a 3306 that kept cooking those orings. It ran somewhat warm but no overheat. Turns out my oil cooler was plugged. Make sure you clean the head where they seat also.
I cleaned the head really good and believe me it needed it, when I pulled the pc's and nozzles I have yet to find any seals anywhere on either or on the head.
The spacer for the precup is the seal for the threaded end, which is why that location needs to be super clean. The upper seal is a oring that goes into the grove on the large end of the precup. If there wasn't any orings there when you pulled them out, that may be why there was no coolant in the head.
There's supposed to be an oring in the groove in the pre cups. Just below the number you put on them. Without the oring antifreeze will pour right out. I see in the pictures just remnants of an oring in there. I have to tell you by looking at those pictures when the owner told you " it ran great when he parked it. After it Sat for a year he went to move it and it would turn over but not start. So it Sat another year and Now I have it. " He's lying through his teeth. No way a good running machine, with a rebuilt head would look like that after sitting for just 2 years. No way ho how!!! but that's a moot point now. You need to find out why the anti freeze isn't getting to the head and where it went. Looking at what's left of those orings I bet they cooked it again and parked it. Again good luck and keep us informed
Yes that washer/spacer/gasket at the bottom is what seals the combustion gases in the cylinder and keeps the coolant out of the cylinder. That is why everything down that end has to be very clean and a new one installed every time. Still even if the oring was gone from the top groove of the chamber the coolant should have still been below that point in the head or at least some should have been in there! That is why I wonder about where the coolant went. Those top seals/orings can deteriorate to the point of being almost completely gone from over heating. Just so we are all understanding where this orings are look at the picture below, they would be where the red arrows are pointing.
Definitely agree. That is a lot of coolant to just disappear from sitting for so long. I wonder if maybe a coolant hose somewhere may have dry rotted and leaked the coolant out over time. Water pump seal?:beatsme
Hypothetically speaking....let's say there is a blown head gasket or even worse a cracked head, wouldn't the machine still run, I mean it was parked where it is, it didn't just die there. How do you go about running a compression test to check it?
Believe it or not but the best way to test for cracks is to pressurize the cooling system by filling it up with water and then putting 10-15psi of pressure into the radiator and observe whether the pressure stays there or not. If it doesn't then you go hunting for leaks. As others have posted I would be looking at obvious places like hoses that could have deteriorated while the machine has been sitting parked, the water pump seal, etc, etc. The fact that there was little trace of o-rings in the large groove at the top of the PC chambers is quite frankly worrying. With no sealing at that point any coolant you added to the radiator should have simply pi$$ed all over the floor - there's nothing to keep it in .... The $64,000 question is WHY the o-rings were so rotted. Again as others have pointed out if that particular engine model is overheated one of the first things that usually let go is those o-rings. Simply as a "what if" because you were not there when the machine was "parked", did it look to you as though it had been parked in a specific location or simply abandoned wherever the person who last used it hopped off...? That might give us some clues. Also how long was it parked as a non-runner..? That also might give a clue as to why rubber parts are so deteriorated. There may be more to this engine than the previous owners/users are telling you ....
Yes it is setting beside a shed as if it were backed in and parked there. After I properly seal the pc's I'm gonna run the coolant system test and go from there. I think it would be better to run the test before I try to fire it again in case it fires and allows coolant to go somewhere it shouldn't.
Don't use too much pressure. 10-15psi should be fine. What you do need is an accurate pressure gauge that reads up to say 30-50psi and a leak-free shut-off valve so that when you get the pressure in the system you can close the valve and watch the gauge carefully to see if it holds pressure. Dased on your comments about where it's parked we could be reading too much into this - the rubber deterioration could simply be due to age. However having got to this point I think it's better to proceed one small step at a time instead of 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. A pressure-tight cooling system is a must before moving on to try and start it again, which is I guess where we came in .....
If you don't have 1, Harbor freight, Northern tools sells a cheap cooling system checker w/ multiple caps to pressurize the system.
While I remember (and at the same time as you're working on pressure testing the cooling system) don't forget to try ksh's suggestion of opening the engine oil pan drain and see if you get any water and/or coolant out of it ..... that could give important clues as to the health of the engine. A few drops of water then oil is probably no more than condensation, the presence of glycol or large quantities of water potentially means something more serious.
Thanks it will probably be the weekend before I can get back on it, working the rest of the week, I will update you as soon as I do the test.
I need some assistance, the seals that the guy at CAT ordered for me are not right. Can someone tell me the part number for the spacers on the bottom of the pc's and also the part # for the rubber o ring that goes around the top to seal the coolant in, thank you.
Did you order parts based on the machine Serial Number or the engine Serial Number..? Your machine was one of the first where the engine carries a separate Serial Number, up to 85J6000-odd the engine was a D300-series and carried the same Serial Number as the machine. I'd suggest you post your engine Serial Number to help us help you. Also give the Part Numbers of the 2 items that came wrong, so someone can track down what they are supposed to fit.......
I agree I looked in SIS and see where they want to know the S/N of the engine. I could give the numbers I saw there but would like to be sure they are the right ones. Also would like to know why your dealer can not come up with the right parts as he should have as good and hopefully much better access to parts information than some retired guy sitting at home on his computer, that would be me! Maybe even be worth the effort to take a picture of these "wrong" parts, I'm very curious as to what they did send you. These Pre-chamber gaskets and seals should not be that hard to look up. Of course it is possible they "parts guy" was not even born when these were common parts. I could almost guarantee I could run up the road to the quarry where I worked and pick a set of them right out of the cabinet where I kept an assortment of them in stock at all times.
Using the 85J w/3304 these would be the part numbers
That's what I was looking at too but just wanted to have the original poster confirm the exact serial number off his engine. Also did some digging and saw where for the D330 enigne they used the same gaskets but packaged them as a "kit" under the number 2S8966 which when put in the NPR section the kit breaks down to the number shown in you attachment above. Still wondering what the heck the dealer sent him, that's why I asked for a picture.
I went to the local cat spot and ordered them, I knew right away they weren't right so I didn't take them, I told him u would call back in a little bit with the part numbers, he did actually have the right pc removal tool though lol.
The part numbers that alldodge posted in the illustration is exactly the right ones. I found them an hour ago and the illustration confirms. The cat guy ordered 5s7221 and 1070268.
Posted mine with the caption after reading Nige post. Figured I already made it up, just post incase they were the right ones. I would bet the farm on others post, not so much with mine
Be aware that the precups changed part number several years ago and they use a different O ring. A couple of times I have been caught out by ordering the correct O rings for the serial number, only to find that later precups have been fitted at some point.
Looking up in SIS I found 5s7221 is the exhaust valve seat insert on serial numbers 85j4672 thru 6246. Part number 1070268 is also a valve seat insert on a lot of motors
Yea, didn't look like anything I needed.
I wasn't aware of that. Do you know how to tell the difference? I did a search on NPR for the 8S3970 and it looks like that is an updated number for the 8S3990 chamber but there is no reference to a service magazine or mention of a change to the oring. Was this change on a 3304 or some other prechamber engine? Not doubting just wanting to learn something new, so the day is not a total loss!
From memory, the early ones had the white O ring that suffers from perishing. Later ones have a yellow silicone O ring that's a different size.
Ok here's the latest, I've been super busy trying to get both machines I have going again. Got the backhoe done and it's perfect. Now for the 955L, I put New seals and o rings on the pcs and fuel nozzle hold downs and lines. No more white puffs of smoke coming out from around the pcs. Still won't start. Installed a new starter because I thought the old,one was too weak. Ran the coolant pressure test so that the question about where did the coolant go could get answered for US. Found a cracked part. I don't know what it is because I came here first to get some insight from the pros. I am attaching the pics. It is right where my finger is pointing. Please tell me what it is, and will this cracked part prevent it from starting. Thanks guys!!
Took a little to figure out where the crack was, top picture is such a close-up I could not tell what you were pointing to in it. Unless I'm not seeing right that is the casting for the front of the engine oil cooler. Only thing inside there would be coolant. That would explain why there was no coolant in the head or engine. As for it preventing the engine from starting, well no but you should not run it till this is fixed as you must have a bad coolant leak there and to run it with no coolant in it will cause other problems fast. I'm also having a bad feeling about this engine. To have a crack there and the nasty rust I saw inside the head makes me think this engine was run with straight water and left set that way and it froze. This crack maybe only the tip of the iceberg, pun fully intended. There may be other parts damaged from freezing. It might be worth filling it with coolant and let it set for a day if it will even hold it that long with this crack. Then open drain on crankcase to see if there is any coolant in there. Note that I said fill with COOLANT, that was for two reasons. First being I would not want to be responsible for damage from freezing again and also I feel coolant will actually leak faster that water and be easy to identify if it got to somewhere it should not be. If you can assure this does not have any other leaks I will try to look up the part number for this cracked casting if you do want to replace it. Then once you get that fixed we can worry about why it has not started. If it becomes absolutely necessary to get it running before making further repairs we could do that but any possible damage will be your's and your's alone.
Just to confirm where this is located, if I'm sitting in the machine looking down on the engine, it is on the left side of the engine toward the back right behind the oil filter. So is that still the same part you were talking about?
Okay here is the part you are pointing to with the crack, yes I know yours does not have that extra cover with the two bolts in it. Your elbow as they call it is "No Longer Available". this one is the "newer" version and is still available from Cat. Hang on to your wallet as that casting (6N0122) is just over $460.00! And that does not include any of the other numbers in that list. Have to wander how many gallons of antifreeze $460.00 could buy, the old "Pay me now or pay me lots more latter thing". If you want to try to locate a used elbow casting your original part number would have been 2P2677, so that or the 6N0122 would work. If you are wondering why they added that little cover, well that is where they mount the flow switch that works a warning light in the cab of the newer machines to let you know the water pump has stopped pumping.
Just for fun I did a search on Google for the 6N0122 number and there appear to be many of them and a few of the 2P2677 ones out there for sale. If this Link works it should give you an idea of where to find one near you if you are so inclined: http://www.machinerytrader.com/list/partssearch.aspx?PartNum=6N0122&btnPartSearch=Search&PST=Exact
Thanks so much,I'm not looking to spend 500, can this piece not be welded?
Brazing would be the best option but is still a fair amount of work to do it right. I'd try and find a good used one first. In the overall scheme of things, a $500 repair on a 955 isn't a worst case scenario.
Yes I agree, $500 repair on a 955 isn't bad, but since I've started this project I'm about $1000 in then $500 more and still haven't gotten it fired up.
Thanks kshan for the part number, I found one for $50. I ordered it of course. While I wait can someone tell me the purpose of 2 radiator caps? One is like what you would find on a regular car and the other is around 4" with a steel screw on cap. Also before I took the cracked part off today, I turned the engine over to see if maybe the caterpillar ferry came by and sprinkled magic dust on it and it might start...,It didn't. More importantly I noticed white smoke coming from the radiator overflow. What do you think of that?
My first thought woud be a cracked cylinder head. I hope I'm wrong but having been glued to this saga since the beginning I'm starting to get a baaaaaad feeling that the coolant in this engine has been frozen up at some point in the past.....
Well my thinking was along the lines of blown head gasket or cracked head. After I replace the cracked piece, would running another coolant pressure test expose if it is either?
That would be my MO. You have to assume there are multiple points where the cooling system is not holding pressure. As you fix each leak that you find pressurize the system again and see where the next leak is. Fix that, repeat ad infinitum until the system holds pressure.
Well if you go back to my post in #111 I was also thinking along those lines or much worse. As you already have the broken part off and a replacement on the way, I guess there is no reason not to give it a try. But I might be thinking about dropping the oil pan and looking up inside while the pressure is applied. I have seen a 3306 engine with cracks between the lower bores of two adjacent cylinders. If you have smoke coming out the radiator overflow while cranking I feel confident there is some major cracks allowing compression pressure to be getting into the coolant side of things. I think I would start looking around for a good running take-out engine to replace this one. Either that or just walk away and take this to be a learning experience on how to NOT store a machine! Went back to the first post and it is claimed this engine has only 80 hours on it since a "new" block was installed! I can not wrap my head around why someone who put that much time and effort into a piece of equipment would apparently throw away that much money by being to cheap to properly fill with good coolant! Sorry, well only a little, for ranting but that machine should have been able to set parked for 10 years with proper coolant in it and not have a problem like this one. I personally know of a 4-71 Detroit power unit that has been sitting unused for close to 20 years and only started four or five times over that time and it will fire up at the push of a button. I know that for a fact as close to two years from the day I retired I stopped by the shop and just for kicks walked over to it in the semi-heated store room it sits in and pushed the starter button. Batter was a little weak but in about 2 seconds it was running. This even with fuel oil that is 5-10 years old!
Well you guys know the story about this 955 as I told you from the start, the previous owner said it would run hot in a short amount of time and he would have to let it set and top off the coolant before running it more. He let a friend borrow it and like most friends they don't care for your stuff like you and the friend ran it hot and cracked the head, and the previous owner told me block but I'm sure he meant head. He had a New head installed and it still had the running hot prob but as the guy only used it around the farm he was content with just letting it rest and topping off the coolant. I think this cracked part I just found was the problem all along and now since it was parked with all the coolant leaked out the the cold winters may have seized some things up. All I can Do is like nige said at this point just properly fix the leak and keep testing and fixing until it holds pressure.
Another update....I finally got time to drop the belly pan and pull the oil drain plug today, I got maybe an ounce of water and then dark black oil. So I'm thinking that is just condensation.....
Don't see an issue with the small amount of water
No expert here, but if one of the PC's were not properly installed, would this cause smoke from the rad overflow? T-man didn't see this smoke before. Me, I would have just bleeded all the air outta the system and had it started in less than a couple hours. Screw the glow plugs and everything else. Check oil or coolant for milk. If you have compression in the cylinders and diesel, the thing is gonna run. Leaking coolant, black pepper or coolant leak fix. $8 It might needed the parts that you've fixed, but maybe not. Worst case, stick a garden hose in the radiator and get it started. $1,000 says if you hadn't mess with it, it would have run. Had you hired a real mechanic, you'd probably saved a bunch of money. DIY is not always the best answer. Sorry if this sounds harsh and don't like my opinion.
Well auen1 I did try to start it before I did any work on it. I filled up The coolant and bled The fuel lines after I changed The fuel filter and put fresh diesel in. It wouldn't start. So glad you didn't bet the $1000. So to what you were saying about compression and diesel.....after putting fresh diesel in the,system and bleeding it, while turning it over there was smoke coming from around all 4 pcs......which tells us that most of the compression is blowing out the top. Maybe put super glue around them?? Cool that the radiator stop leak or pepper satisfies you but when I have a 2in crack in a part I prefer to just fix it right. I appreciate your helpful input I think but still not any closer to getting it started. Sorry if this sounds harsh and don't like my opinion.
Don't get mad. I thought, you thought it was coming out of one cylinder, not all 4. Regardless, all the 1200 psi compression wasn't leaking out. That would have been very noticeable. Things have a way of sealing themselves up after running.
Themaskman72 Now you are saying that there is/was smoke coming from around all four Pre-Chambers? You do know that there are orings around the top of the Pre-Chambers to seal the coolant in the engine right? Or was this "smoke" coming from where the fuel line adapter the nozzles screw on to at the bottom? If there was smoke coming from that point you had/have some major problems with the nozzles not installed correctly! And you say you filled the coolant before trying to start? And you did not notice the stream of water running down the side of the block? Sorry but that is hard for me to picture considering there was not even a sign of moisture in the head when you removed the Pre-Cambers. I have one more suggestion, once you get this new elbow to replace the cracked one installed before putting any coolant in the engine remove the water temperature sender from the engine. Then fill with coolant watching for a stream coming out where the sender was installed this should confirm coolant is getting to the cylinder head and most if not all of the air is bled out of the cooling passages in the block and head. Now reinstall the sender and finish filling the radiator and let it set for half an hour to see if the level drops. Once you are sure the coolant level is not dropping then try cranking the engine over again. If there is no white smoke coming out the exhaust while cranking loosen the fuel lines at the connector on the Pre-Chambers and try cranking some more. Once you are seeing fuel coming out the loosened connectors stop and tighten them. Now crank some more you should see a good amount of white smoke out the exhaust. If it is coming out anywhere else you have a problem! If white smoke is coming out the exhaust stop and heat the glowplugs for a full minute and then try to start. And auen1, what engine are you working on that has a cranking pressure of 1,200 psi? I don't have, and don't even know if Cat ever published a specification for cranking pressure on a 3304 or D330 but if I was to guess I would say something in the 450 psi range for a good engine.
Originally I spotted the smoke coming from around 1 pc. This is when I changed the glow plugs and replaced the worn harness. Before pulling the glow plugs I cleaned the inch of crud off the top of the head. After testing to make sure all the New glow plugs were received the right voltage I turned it over again. This is when I noticed the smoke coming from around all the pcs. So with the help of you guys and some stuff on the net I educated myself to how the whole pc and fuel nozzle system worked and the correct seals for them. I ordered the New seals and pulled all the pcs out and separated The nozzles. There were no seals at the top of the pc where it met the head, also no o rings on the nozzle nor the fuel line. The spacer seals were on the bottom of the pcs. I ordered all new sets of the spacer seals. I ordered all 3 sizes for each pc to ensure I had the right size I needed. According to the cat manual for this machine which I received from someone on here and I installed the pcs with the tool I bought for them and with the correct anti seize the book calls for and torqued to 140-160 ft lb using the correct spacer seal to Have the glow plug in the "go" zone. Then I installed the fuel nozzle and extension finger tight with the hold down torqued to 100 ft lb. Installed the fuel lines and cracked them and turned it over until no more bubbles and steady fuel came out. Yes, I did fill the radiator up and there were no streaming leaks that were noticeable. The coolant level never dropped until I replaced the batteries and spun it over at the proper rpms were it actually pumped coolant through the engine. Still no noticeable leaks. I ran the coolant pressure test and there is when the leak jumped out. When I took the part off that side of the head There was coolant in the head and it wasn't milky, it looked pure. Also oil running out was not milky, looked pure, little burnt but pure. Please let me know if I have done anything wrong to this point so I can correct it, thanks.
I've been keeping my mouth shut on this deal because I don't have any first-hand experience with PC Cat engines. However, I find it ridiculous that if you've did all these things, from sorting out the PC sealing issues to bleeding the injectors to making sure the glow plugs work, and it won't do anything other than push a little smoke, I for one would have let it sit for an hour after trying, and gave it little sniff from the can. Unless you have a couple (or more) cylinders "vented" together, or sticking valves, or something else entirely going on in there, that engine should fire. If it was me, at this point I would be doing a compression test to make damn certain I'm not wasting time and effort on something that isn't going to start no matter what you do. JMO.
I don't know where I came up with 1,200 psi. Quick Google search says it typically ranges between 350-700 depending on the engine. That's still a lot of pressure. Unless I have a remote starter button, bleeding the air out is usually a 2 man job. One guy cranks the engine, the other will yell open and closed, as he opens and closes each fuel connection, (while its cranking). If you do it by yourself and don't close the fuel connection before you stop cranking, it can suck air back into the fuel system.
Yes I bled the lines with a helper. Shimmy I am thinking along the same lines as you with it firing or something more may be wrong like a blown head gasket. Its just been a journey of fixing everything along the way to the big stuff. All the things that I have fixed thus far are essential in the long hall for this machine to work properly. Eventually it has to crank, I'm committed to fixing and firing it now no matter what it takes.
Maybe pulling the air cleaner and listening while you're cranking could rule out sticking intake valves? I don't recall if you've given it a sniff yet, have you? I know these engines are coldblooded ba$tards, especially if they have some hours on them.
I have followed this to an extent , have you pulled the valve cover and checked valve clearance , looked for bent pushrods etc. If that's all good I'm like Shimmy , give it a taste of the good stuff. But do not energize the glow plugs. One other thing set a salamander heater at a safe distance from the engine block get it toasty , shot of juice while cranking.
I tried a shot of ether and also tried gas soaked rag on the intake and actually the ether showed signs of life but no running yet.
I was going to suggest this as well, but figured those might be hard to find down south.
I have plans on pulling valve cover next when I get the new part in just to give it a look and make sure everything is functioning as it should. I was also thinking about a block heater so I'm gonna go ahead and do that also. Thanks guys, I appreciate the suggestions.
You must be serious about this thing. I admire your fortitude.
Thanks shimmy
There are times when you get to thinking "I'm not going to let this SOB beat me, it WILL Run........" - this appears to be one of those times. There are a large number of people here who are willing you to succeed, believe me, and technical/practical information will always be available to help you along the way. All you have to do is ask.
Yes this is one of those times, and the Information and help I've received from the people in here has been great and I am very appreciative.
Not being there to see and hear things first hand makes it difficult to diagnose what is right or wrong. Something that would jump out at one of us in a second could take days to figure out when a person who is unfamiliar with what is "normal" is our only source of information. Not sure of what part of NC you are in but did a quick check and see at least one part of that state is seeing 53ºF today. If you have those kinds of temps while trying to start this machine and the batteries fully charged and the glow plugs are working I don't see a real need for a block heater or the salamander heater. Not that they would cause a problem but should not be needed. Like I said not being there is the main problem, any of us trying to help could probably tell in a couple seconds if it sounded like it had compression while cranking, but we're not there. It would be a good step to clean around the valve cover and have a look. If the helper is handy have them crank it over a bit with cover off to see if things appear to be moving like they should, also get a flashlight and sight down the push rods to see if they are bent, give them a spin on the cylinders the valves are closed on just to be sure, they should not wobble while turning. Then a quick check of valve adjustments would let you know a lot about things. Valves should be set to 0.015 in on intakes(shorter rocker arms toward the rear of each cylinder) and 0.025 in on exhausts( longer rocker arms toward the front of each cylinder). Cat allows a couple thousands either side of those spec's so don't get excited if a couple are slightly off! Tip to figure out how to position engine for setting the valves. Turn engine over by hand and watch rocker arms. You will see the exhaust valve on #4 cylinder open then start closing at some point you will notice just as the exhaust valve get to the closed position the intake will start to move STOP this is what is called valve over lap. If you get it just right there will be no clearance on either valve for that cylinder. When cylinder #4 valves are in valve over lap you check/adjust the valves on #1 cylinder. Now turn over slowly while watching valves on #2 cylinder when those are in the over lap position check/adjust #3 valves. Next go to valve over lap on #1 and check/adjust #4. Last go to valve over lap on #3 and check/adjust #2. May sound complicated but actually simple if you think about it #1 and #4 are paired and #2 and #3 are paired. If one of the pair are in over lap you set the valves on the other one in the pair. This works on just about every four stroke engine with an even number of cylinder! Cat has a different way to do it but I feel this is less confusing and less jumping around from cylinder to cylinder while only doing one valve here and two there. If you find any major discrepancy in the adjustments, like say 0.010 off from these spec's I would be worried there is some major problem. One other thing you could do is to leave the prechambers in but pull the nozzles out of all the cylinders and have someone crank the engine over and see if you get a good strong puf of air out of each cylinder. Just keep hands and face back a bit on the chance there is some crap in the cylinders that could come out with force. If you have a cell phone that you could use to make a movie of how this thing sounds while cranking over and trying to start it might be of some help.
Thank you very much kshan. That was a lot of information and I understood it all. I'm going to try to take a video and see if I can't post it so you guys can get a good listen. I have to wait for that New elbow first because I've already taken the cracked one off but I should have it this weekend. You are spot on with me not knowing how it's supposed to sound while cranking because this is my first piece of heavy equipment. I really appreciate all the help I have received here.
While you are waiting for that elbow go out and check those valves and push rods, heck you could also pop out the nozzles and crank it over a little too. Not like it will start or fire without them in there! Just an off the wall thought, don't recall if it was mentioned before, how does this thing shut down? It might sound too simple but if this is of the vintage I believe it is it might have the shut down work by pulling back on the throttle. If that is the case make sure you can feel it snap in and out of the run position by working the throttle control. Does a 955K have a foot control for the governor? Like I said I have no experience in the track loaders but a good amount on 3306 engines and other old Cat engines.
The throttle is to your left when sitting in the seat, it has off all the way forward and run all the way back but it doesn't snap in or out of either.
This could be a break through so to speak. The throttle should have a noticeable snap to shut off or set for starting. Unless I'm wrong. I am not familiar with how to check this part out. Just thinking out loud , if the fuel pump is stuck shut off this could be your problem. I do know from being on 955L it takes a little force to push it to shut down and its definitely noticeable when you pull it to start .
I have read other threads where they were talking about it snapping in and out and I messed with my throttle a little bit moving it forward and back while watching the lever move at the engine but definitely no snapping on or off. I have tried to find anything on the starting procedure for this machine and I can't find anything, not anything that specifically tells you the functions.
Post a pic of the injection pump.. along w/ pics of the throttle on the pump in the run position and one in the stop position.
Never felt a snap with my L going on or off.
This would be a most excellent idea. Always helps to know exactly what we are working with regarding the pump. When I mentioned a "snap" when moving governor control from run position to stop position I did not mean that it would be a major feeling or sound like a 357 going off in your hand but at least a noticeable sensation. The amount of what you might feel could be effected by how complicated or free the linkage is from the hand control to the governor. Also depending on exactly which pump you have there would be a noticeable difference in the feel. I know the sleeve metering pump detents can get worn and rusty to the point they are almost useless! Then some of the scroll pump systems have a spring device in the linkage that prevents damage to the pump if one tries to force the rack beyond the limiting device before oil pressure is up to the minimum amount. Those can fail and not allow the linkage to move far enough to let engine start. This is just one more case of the problems of not being there to know what is happening by someone familiar with the normal operation of a machine. Not to put down the younger member on this group but not sure anyone under 50 years old would have any idea on how this machine should work at least in regards to the fuel/governor system. No place to plug the laptop in to check it out with ET!
This is the throttle in the run position...
This is the throttle in the off position...
Hey TMM, your 955K looks a lot like mine! I can take a look at mine tomorrow to see if the pump lever looks the same, I doubt that's the issue, though, since you have had fuel at the PCs. There's not really a "click" or much of a detent at the "off" position on mine, but you can tell there's a difference right at the end of the throw. It's hard to explain, kind of like if you've ever used an air rifle or pump shotgun, the force drops off right at the very end of the stroke--it's like that. But very subtle, just enough to let you know it's at the end of the stroke (the throttle, that is). I usually start mine with the throttle half-way--not nearly as far as what you have in your photo. Speaking of photos--you might consider making yours a bit smaller as a courtesy to those of us on rather slow-high speed internet. I got them to load once (took about 10 mins) but they won't load again.... Cavin'
Oh, forgot to mention that some of your gauges are different than mine--since our serial #s aren't terribly far off, I wonder if someone replaced your gauges (or some of mine, for that matter, but I think mine are all original). Could be, too, that they were offered with different gauge arrangements. You can see mine in this thread: HeavyEquipmentForums
Sorry bout the photo size, didn't realize it would load like that, when I move from off to run or vice versa it is smooth, I don't feel any kind of anything. I'm gonna unhook the linkage and shift it by hand to see if I notice a difference.
I wouldn't bother with the linkage if I were you, I think you're chasing ghosts with that. Like I said, it's really subtle (at least what I think I feel) and it might not be anything, really! Go back to posts #143 and #145 above and do that first. You know you have fuel at the PCs, right? And thepumpguysc should be able to tell from your photos if the linkage looks in the right place for off/on and I can check my machine, too, for comparison. Good luck, isn't troubleshooting fun?
Its impossible to say weather the position is correct seeing EVERY set up is different.. Splined shaft and splined lever can go on 24 diff. ways. Unhooking the linkage is a good idea especially if its just a pin. and just because the lever is moving, doesn't mean the rack inside the pump is.. Grab a scraper and a case of brake kleen and work on that pump while your sipping your favorite beverage.. and we might be able to tell you an access port to see if the guts are moving..
It is just a pin holding the linkage. I'm going to check it today and get some better pics.
Looks the same as mine, and leaning toward its not the pump but time and testing will tell. I link the big pics because there show more detail
Also I have gotten fuel at the pcs while bleeding with the primer, have not bled the fuel lines by turning it over, guess I should have did that to ensure pump and everything was actually functioning.
Very much so. After changing some fuel line items on mine it was a bear to start. My problem was just getting all the air out and being new at the time I was doing it the hard way by my self
Ah, yeah, didn't think about that last night. But consider this--from the crud on the pump there's no indication that anything has been removed or changed since the machine was running. TMM has enough to deal with regarding vanishing coolant and potential other damage from a freeze. I still think it's best to fix known problems before chasing after might-be's. Just my two pennies.
Umm, yeah?? If you have not bled fuel out by cranking, maybe the pump isn't even sending fuel?
Back at post #15: TMM is getting fuel out when it's cranked. He's also reported smoke when cranking. Give the pump a break.
Well, he may have said that in post #15, but in post #163 he says he hasn't bled the lines by turning it over, so which is it????
Sorry, should have been more clear in my last few posts, originally before I started pulling pcs and replacing seals and so on I did bleed the lines while cranking, since I've pulled the pcs and replaced all the seals and put it all back in I have only bled with the primer. I got the cracked part in and gonna try and get it installed tomorrow along with doing the checking of the valves and pushrods, also gonna fill the coolant system and bleed fuel lines at the pcs while cranking then run another coolant pressure test and see where we are. Let me know if there are any other things that you guys think I should check or take pics of, thanks.
I got about an hour before it got dark tonight to work on the 955L and I pulled the valve cover and turned it over and everything looks like it is moving properly, nothing as far as the mechanical end looked out of order or improper, that being said There was water inside. I took a couple pics and a video I'm gonna try to load. Let me know what you think.
Says video file is too big to load. Looking down in where the pushrods are while turning it over it looks like water at the bottom of the push rod.
You can load it to utube and put a link on here.. don't ask me how.. I've just seen it done, someone else did it..
Thanks pumpguy!
Not sure what others would say but I sure would be tempted to wash everything on the top side with fuel oil leaving drain plug out. Maybe fill a garden sprayer with fuel oil to spray down the push rod holes. Then let it set over night with drain open and before putting valve cover on fill cooling system and pressure test again and look for any signs of leaks, The if that look good dump some fresh oil down the push rod holes before putting the valve cover back on. Replace oil filter with new and see if it will start. If it does start I would only run a short time to warm it up a little and change oil and filter a second time. If it is still running run a little warmer to get good and warm and at least one more oil change. Sure the oil and filters will cost a bit but that would be cheap compared to a major failure.
Now that I know how to do that, is there anything that I can do to help you guys help me by taking video?
Hate to say it, but it sure sounds like at least one cylinder is compromised, maybe two. I thought you had new batteries and starter?
Just listened to the video, sounds like the batteries are dying very fast. Even a good running engine would have trouble starting turning that slow.
That sounds good, I agree about the cost of the oil changes in stead of having a major failure. I have also confirmed today that it was a new head installed and not a new block. About 80-100 hrs ago.
Well it was like 30 outside and I thought of doing the video after turning it over a couple times without the charger hooked up. They are new batteries and a New starter. I am using a car charger to charge them, I have them in the machine hooked up and I put the red clamp on the bottom battery + and the black clamp on the machine, is that right or do I need to do something else to get the batteries back up?
I'm not an old Cat guy, is it 12V or 24V? If it's 24V, you need two chargers. Yep, after looking at some of the first posts, it appears it's 24V. You need TWO chargers, unless you have a 24V charger. You're not going to get it started with the positive battery dead, and it almost surely is. Find a trickle charger, 1 amp or less, and bring that new battery back up very slowly or you'll damage it.
It's 2 large 12v batteries connected together.
Are they connected like this: Or like this:
Hopefully you can understand these pics. Here is how you charge a 24V system, with either one 24V charger or two 12V chargers.
Most if not all HE is set up 24V. One other caution for those running Old Obsolete makes as I have is many can be Positive Ground. Can still use conventional chargers to recharge on battery at a time just do not attempt to jump start from another machine and if know the hazard as well the conditions to do so do Not let the two machines touch. My Allis is 24V +grd, I have two group 31 12V batteries tied in series to make 24V. Conventional car or pickup batteries will not have the amps available or the recovery capacity to turn these machines over for very long.
That engine is not going to start turning over that slow. You are going to have to spin it at least 550 RPMs to start it. Those batteries are not what they should be or your starter might be dragging. What about your battery cables, are they getting hot and are they large enough to carry the current? Harbor Freight has a small 12 volt pump that cost about thirty dollars with 20% off coupon (Item # 63324) . You can install that pump inline from the fuel line coming from from the tank just before the fuel filter. If you want to eliminate bad fuel just draw fuel from a fresh 5 gallon pail of fuel. Once installed inline you can let it build pressure and then bleed your entire fuel system without cranking the engine. After my engine overhaul, that is how I bled my entire fuel system and she fired right up upon the second or third revolution. Once the engine runs, remove the temporary in line pump. To hook the pump up use a supply water hose off of an automatic washing machine. Cut the hose in half and it will screw on to the pump at the inlet and outlet leaving you with two rubber hoses to connect the pump inline to your machine with hose clamps. The little pump is for water but it handles diesel fuel just fine. Crack the oil drain plug just enough to see if there is water or oil in the bottom of the pan. Crank it with the glow plugs removed. hold a mirror over the glow plug holes and see if you get moisture, (water) on your mirror glass. If I suspected water in the engine being the no start culprit, I would drain the cooling system and then try to start the engine. Just don't let it run long enough to over heat if it does start.
Its like the top pic shimmy, that's the problem, I haven't actually recharged the batteries right and since I got the New batteries I have turned it over a lot.
If you haven't done any charging on the positive battery at all, you NEED to get it charged up, and slowly. If you haven't charged on it, it is going to be dead. Get your voltmeter and check it, anything below 10V and you may have already damaged it. Find a 1 amp maintainer charger and give it a couple days, if you put more than 1 or 2 amps to it, it will work for awhile, but its life will be dramatically reduced; it may be already.
Charge one battery till the charge rate drops to a couple amps, then charge the other one. Or leave it on all night on one battery, and all day on the other one. Assuming you have an automatic battery charger? what's the amp rating on the charger? Shimmy, where are you getting the info on trickle charging a dead one? never heard that before.
I did a little checking online, but couldn't readily find anything. I know I've seen it talked about on here, and I also know from personal experience. We have 5 trucks, 3 of them have had the batteries ran stone dead several times (I'm not at all proud to admit that fact), and two of them have compromised batteries. We've owned all three trucks for more than 5 years, and after replacing batteries they all would stay charged for months at a time. In the last couple years, when the light fairy caused the batteries to go dead, 1 of them we were able to put the trickle charger on both times and those batteries are fine. The other 2 have had to be jump started because we needed the trucks, and they both will be dead to the point of not starting in a week or two of non-use. I'm pretty sure that it's only one or two batteries of the four (in each truck, yuck) that are causing the problems, and when I get a chance I'm going to pull all the cables, trickle charge each battery fully, and let them set for a week and see which ones go dead. Since they are all the same batteries, I'm hoping I have 4 good ones I can put in one truck and replace the other 4 instead of buying all 8. We don't mess around with mixing new batteries and old. If one battery is shot, the whole set gets replaced.
I have 4 chargers, they all charge at 100 amps and are automatic, they all have 200 amp jump start.
They are either 100 or 200 amps?? Pretty hot chargers. Most small chargers I've seen are 2/10/50 boost or 2/15/100 boost, and the larger ones are usually 30/60/200 boost or 40/70/300 boost. I see mostly Schumacher chargers around here, there are most certainly other options, but I don't think I've ever seen a charger that doesn't charge less than 100 amps. That would boil over pretty much any smaller battery that was dead I would think.
I will take another look tomorrow.
What you describe on trickling a battery back to life can be short lived as what you did was force the lead sulfate 'corrosion' layers off or caused the sulfate in the bottom that had sloughed to spread out from perturbation of the acid by the charging. Average battery today is a remanufactured lead or reclaimed lead device, much of this material comes from recycled batteries and can be a bit troublesome in that it does not stand up as well as newly smelted lead just as recycled steels rust faster.
100 amp charge and 200 boost makes sense to me, except I've never seen a 100 amp 12 volt charger, that's 1,200 watts and you're not going to get that power out of a 120v plug after the conversion loss. So you have four big automatic chargers, you can either be real careful to check that they're not grounded together, so that when they're plugged into the same grid they short out with the positive of one hooked to the negative of the other etc. Or you can disconnect one of the batteries and leave the other one connected while you charge them both. I agree with Shimmy that want the battery fully charged before you try to start with it, just never heard that trickling was the way to go. I thought a drained battery would suck up 20 or more amps without any problem until it gets close to full, or gets too warm.
I would charge it around 20 amps and give it some time. I hope after getting them charged it will spin over faster, if not you may have the same issue I did with my D3, it was rusted inside
Here's a 300 amp model. http://m.northerntool.com/products/shop~tools~product_200446605_200446605?hotline=false
have you done a compression test? it didn't sound right in the video. All that brown or cream colored residue in the top end usually indicates an internal coolant leak or an exceptional amount of condensation which could be caused by a number of things. The head gasket may be leaking. Believe it or not, i've seen guys try to re-use them and that is begging for failure. If a compression test comes up low on all cylinders, you may have dry cylinders from sitting a long time. Unlikely, but rare. The other possible place for coolant to be entering would be the liner o-rings which would show up with the cooling system full of straight water and then pressuring it up with about 5 psi and the oil pan off. Then look up from underneath and see where the water is dripping from. Just a couple of ideas
Yes charge at low rate around 2 amps if newer batteries are dead or almost dead. The tandem dump I bought had fairly new batteries but didn't have enough charge to turn the engine over so I took them into a place that reconditions batteries to have them tested. They said they were low and might be OK but charge at 2 amps for 2 or 3 days. I charged them individually overnight for about 15 hours (needed the truck) and they hold a charge now. I think they said charging at a high rate can warp the plates and cause other problems. I have a reconditioned battery I got from them in my tractor that's still going after 12 years. The 8D in my Cat went 10 years. This place told me in the past it can take 2 or 3 days to fully charge a battery but slow charge is best. They said their reconditioning machine basically cycles between a trickle charge and about 6-10 amps back and forth to break up the sulfation. Sometimes they do that and then change the battery acid. The reconditioned batteries have a 1 year guarantee and are less than 1/2 the cost of a new battery. The 8D cost me $80 exchange and the group 31 truck battery $50 exchange. Another battery in the truck was bad but they gave me $10 for it.
Here's a couple of my chargers I'm using. View attachment 164891 View attachment 164891 View attachment 164892
sorry, i wasn't clear. i was referring to the newer 1 piece gaskets and not the old multi-piece. i always re-use the brass water directors but not the grommets on them. coolant may be leaking from a pinched grommet or if the recess isn"t cleaned real good. sometimes the recesses can be quite pitted
Here's a couple short videos to update you guys on where I am with the 955L right now, thanks.
Not sure what the problem is with the videos, both come up after a time saying Error. Did that water start leaking from exhaust after you filled the coolant? Is it in fact coolant? Or is water getting in the exhaust somehow? This really does not look good! If you have not tried cranking the engine over with that water in there DON"T!!!!! You will have more problems. If that is not the coolant but water that somehow got in the exhaust system remove all fuel injector nozzles, not the prechamber just the nozzles that are about the size of your thumb. Once they are all out crank engine over slow by hand a couple turns. If it turns okay that way try spinning it over with the starter to blow any water out. I might now try spraying about half a can of something like WD40 in each cylinder and let it set a short time then crank over with the nozzles still out with the battery again. Once it stops blowing stuff out the prechambers then you could reinstall nozzles and try to start it. Also fix what ever allowed the water to get in there in the first place! If that is coolant that started coming out the exhaust while filling radiator you might have two choices neither of which you will like. First walk away and forget this machine. Second start shopping around for a good running used engine. I would not be comfortable trying to patch this one short of a total tear down checking block, head, coolers and so on for damage from freezing.
It didn't start coming out until I filled the coolant.
At some point you are going to have to at least pull the engine head. If the hood is already off it is not that big of a job, might as well get those wrenches out and get started. I would first remove the glow plugs and spin the engine to get a clue as to if it is one cylinder or all of them. You can also fab up threaded pluming to screw into the glow plug holes and put about 100 lbs air pressure on the cylinders, one at a time, to see where the water comes out. You might also drain the oil and leave the plug out to see if the water goes to the oil pan. CAUTION, remove the radiator cap before putting air into the cylinders. Just my 2 cents worth.
Yea nite I came to the same conclusion. I'm planning to pull the head and have it machined and of course all new gaskets. To this point I haven't had any water/coolant in the oil pan other than a very small amount I credit to condensation. The things I've fixed thus far needed to be fixed anyway so I'm sorta glad to get to the main issue. I will post detailed pics of everything as I tear it down so you guys can get a good look at the internals. Thanks.
I hope there is no water in the oil, if there was you might not notice it. Water floats to the bottom and checking the dip stick would not show it.
Yea I've opened the drain plug on the oil pan twice, first time I got about an ounce, nothing the second time, checked it 2 weeks apart.
Yep my bad, remember you checking that now
Well I'll add 1 or 2 cents of my own to what I already said. If you are going to do as Nitelite says and put air into the cylinders, one at a time, I would start by removing the rocker arms to make sure all the valves are closed. Or you could just back off the adjusters enough to let you pull out the push tubes. As I recall the rocker assembly of these engines are held on with four of the head bolts, so leaving them tight for this "pressure test" might be a good idea. Hate to be a "Negative Nancy" on this engine's prospects but would not get my hopes up too high at his point and be prepared for the worst outcome. If at it appears this machine was parked with straight water in the cooling system one could be chasing all kinds of problems from ice cracking things. It makes me sick to think how someone could destroy a piece of equipment all to save the price of a meal or two at MacDonalds. Or even worse if they knew it had straight water in the system something a simple as opening a drain valve on the bottom of the radiator! My old Farmall was low on coolant this summer one time I needed it to mow the lawn and I did not have any coolant so to get to work I topped it off with straight water. It probably had about 1/2 the normal amount of anti-freeze in it from doing that so when I parked it for the winter I just drained the system and will refill with fresh 50/50 coolant in the spring. Remove one pipe plug and saved a 68 year old engine from destruction!
Ok guys I have an update....finally got time to pull the head hoping for just a blown gasket. The pics show what I discovered. Head gasket looked ok and in tact. My question, is there anything salvageable on this head.....valves, springs, etc..?
Man that is a bummer. There might be some parts reusable, but need to find a used head first. Once you have a used one, then try to see what can be used from it to rebuild, then use what is needed from this one to make up the difference
I found a reman CAT 8N1188 Head for $500 but it comes bare with just new valve guides. I was wondering if the valves and springs in this head would work or if this is one of those things that need to bought New every time you have to change heads?
Old valves in new guides might be ok on a machine that won't see a lot of hours.
I'm just gonna use it to clear some of my land and maybe cut a driveway, not gonna be putting it to work fulltime. When I get this old girl purring again I'm gonna keep her in good shape because to this point doesn't look like she's gotten the tlc she deserves.
Your head has been run hot and dry, look close at the liners for scuffing, may not have gotten that deep but could have. I could trust the valves springs but I would be hesitant without cleanup and crack/stress inspection of the valves, you put the old ones in a new head and drop a valve head you just ruined your repairs PLUS. Go with the reman but look to replacing the valves with it. Cheap investment. If the liners are really slick and shiny may be losing compression as well by the rings.
TBH the value of new valves, springs, etc, should be nowhere near the cost of the head itself. I wouldn't put used valves in new guides if it was mine, and unless the valve springs were really low hours no way would they go back. Once you get past those items you only have the rotators & valve keepers. As you said this machine has been short of some TLC and you just got elected ........... Regarding the Reman head, check on the Core Credit ciriteria before you start jumping up & down. I'm not sure a cracked head would qualify for Core Credit, so you'd end up paying new price (Reman + Core Credit = New Price) for what could well be a refurbished head. Just saying ...........
If the head supplier you are looking at will not accept this head as a core call these guys: http://www.chapincylinderhead.com/ They specialize in weld repaired heads, may need to send them your photos to see if they may accept it or not. Are in Chapin IL.
Offroad Equipment has a listing of a new loaded aftermarket head for $870.00 in case you're interested.
Before even thinking of buying a head I would do some very close inspection on the rest of the engine. As I said above in message 212 I would be very worried about this engine! Those are about the worst cracks I have ever seen in a head. If someone keep running it with coolant low due to the cracks there is no telling how much other damage there might be. Scored cylinders and scuffed up pistons might be just the start of things. I would be worried about things like cracked block, bad main and rod bearings, scored crank and bad cam bearings, just to name a few. I doubt this damage you have already found happened in the last couple minutes it ran before being parked! I believe I have said it before, I'd put out some feelers to try to source a running take out engine. That would still involve a bit of risk but the only other option I would feel comfortable with from what I have seen is a total tear down and careful cleaning of each and every part with a close examination of all components. Anything less would, in my opinion, just be asking for something to bit you hard in the pocketbook five minutes after it does fire up for the first time. Either that or hire an old retired Cat mechanic to come out and evaluate it as it set right now. If he doesn't have grey hair find someone else. This is not a job for someone who's first step in fixing a machine involves finding the plug-in-port for his laptop
Price new valves and springs at Off Road Equipment in Alcoa Tn. They are very cheap parts and not a lot of pain to replace. just lap them in the refurb head. You can see how I did my valves on my thread, "Cat 951 C in my sights".
As usual Ken has hit the nail right on the head ........... The head has obviously been cooked, well done in this case as opposed to medium rare. So that being the case what is the likely condition of things like cylinder liner seals, and then as we progress further down the engine the crankshaft, camshaft, and oil pump..? It's bite the bullet time and pull the engine out, strip the whole thing and do a condition report on it. Then once the full extent of the damage is known you can start to rebuild from a known condition, or start looking for a replacement donk, or both. There are too many ifs, buts, & maybes flying around right now after having seen the actual condition of the head. If you want a saga of an optimist regarding the extent of damage to an engine from what seemed (to the OP anyway) a "minor" problem, read all 15 pages of this thread .......... HeavyEquipmentForums
Ok everyone, an update....got the refurb head and new valves springs keepers fuel nozzles gaskets.......everything is back assembled....my John Deere 310c back hoe has a hot wire that runs to the injection pump, my question is does the 955L also need a hot wire to the injection pump? Remember this machine has a 3304 pc engine.
No, there is no electrical connection to the pump. It uses only the mechanical governor handle
Almost forgot about this engine. As others have said no electric to the injector pump but there is a wiring harness that connects to the glow plugs, usually a wire that plugs in at the rear of engine. Just wondering how the cylinders looked while the head was off. As cooked as the head was I'm still worried about the rest of the engine. You need to be sure the glow plugs are working before you spend hours trying to get this engine to start. It may be warm in NC but I would still use the glow plugs for the first start of the day. Leave lines very loose at the nozzle adapters and crank it over till you get fuel coming out of all the lines from the injector pump. Also as I believe this engine has not run in at least a couple years I would have everything off on the intake side of the turbo and have a plate of steel to slap over the intake to kill the engine if there is a problem in the governor on start up and it starts to run away. One more thing I would make sure you see oil pressure while cranking before you let it start. Good luck and report back what ever happens.
Update.....finally this old beast alive again. Oil pressure looks good. It is running sweet. Fires right up at first try now. Have a small oil leak and water leak due to faulty gaskets but otherwise performing perfectly at this point. Thanks to everyone who advised me and sent me info on this adventure. I will update a few more times as I get all the cob webs worked off.....I'm sure I will have some more questions.....thanks again!!!!
Great to hear
Need a video! No pictures means it never happened!
I Agree!! PHOTOS!!
And don't cheat by sticking an old cigar down the muffler to show fake smoke coming out!