I posted this first in the Dozer forum, because I hadn't looked around enough to realize there was a track loader section! Clearly this is where I belong - my apologies for a double post.. I've started the process of building a pond on my property, knocking down and selling trees this fall and winter, and plan to build the Dam next spring / summer. It's about a 2 acre lake, and will be a 22' tall at center x 350' long dam. Somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 slope on the dam, so I've mathed out around 9k yards of dirt in the dam, plus getting a good layer of clay spread on the 2 acre lake, and then spreading topsoil back out. The dirt is mostly clay out here, shouldn't be any surprises or anything to make the job difficult. I have a Ford 655C backhoe I can put someone in occasionally too, to help dig / prep dirt, do the core trench with, etc. I have access to a late 80's / early 90's CAT 963 track loader. Trying to figure out what I'm getting myself into here. Is this a suitable machine to tackle this job with? How many hours of dirt pushing do we think I'm in for - 300 hours in the cab? Also what kind of fuel consumption am I looking at? Just trying to figure out some of the details before I dive into this, and trying to weigh out if I just need to take a loan out and have someone come in and do it for me. I'm not worried about my knowledge or capabilities in building a lake - I've read enough to be confident I'll be successful. My concern is how much time this will cost me, if this track loader is the right machine, and what the fuel and maintenance cost will end up being. Anything to look out for on this machine, to make sure I don't completely tear up my buddy's dozer? All input welcome! - Backer
Since you did not mention it, I would figure out the cut to the bottom of the pond elevation. Then I'd take that backhoe and do some extensive test pits to that depth. The reason being, if it goes to ground water near the floor, the crawler loader will get buried. They have a higher ground pressure than a dozer, due to being narrow enough to drive into the slot cut by the bucket. I'd do that soils and water investigation before I committed to any course of action.
Good input! I've dug a dozen test holes. Only ground water I hit was about 10' down at the dam, but good for me to hear this so I can be paying attention to that.
how firm was it at the floor of the pond elevation?
63s can be great machines as are heavy enough to down pressure make cuts. Any ideas on how well serviced, s/n of machine looking at, how well does it operate when test run it? the Bs I have been using were wonder weapons, can absolutely destroy a bunch of stuff in a hurry. will want a life estimate on Under Carriage by a good tech, will need hours on machine and last major work performed either report or receipts. The hydro on these will counter rotate track when full depress steering pedal.
Welcome to the Forums BB. I closed the other thread and redirected here. Just some friendly advice but never, ever say this before starting a job - Unless it's a job where you have very healthy unit pricing in the contract for undercut and replace...
One Aspect of the 963 you may not care for is fuel consumption, they are not bashful in such. As most machines this size are very thirsty.
^ very important, as you do not want to pack 5's to a machine like that.
Thanks for all of the great replies so-far! Responses: It was mostly dry and completely firm. Plenty to drive anything on. There was just one place where the dirt was a little wet and could be an issue. It's something I'll have to watch out for, certainly. It's mostly well-drained, slightly rocky clay up there though. The machine has been used sparingly, and well-maintained. Again, I'm not purchasing it, just borrowing from a good friend, so I just need to do general maintenance (fluids & filters) on it. If something major were to break while I have it, my buddy and I will work it out. I mostly just wondered if these have any achilles heel I need to keep an eye on. Anything I might not think of, that I could check occasionally and make sure I don't tear it up.. Appreciate the redirect! And yes I should know better, and have learned the lesson many times to not count your chickens before they hatch. EVERY job has a surprise or two.. I just haven't identified it yet. No contract though - I'm just doing this for myself. Any estimate what I'm looking at here? Is there a rule of thumb for how much fuel I'll use per yard, or per hour, etc.? To put a 9k yard dam together..? This is one piece of the puzzle I don't have any grasp of right now.. If it's going to be $5k in fuel, it may just make more sense for me to farm this out to the local dirt worker.. I assume you're talking about 5 gallon cans? Just picked up a 100 gallon tank on a little trailer - I had the same thought "No way I'm going to fill these both up with 5 gallon cans for this whole project"
5 gallon cans are pretty tiresome on a 60 gallon a day machine. Best to have a pump tank. Note that the 60 gallons is a total Wild Ass Guess (WAG). It would not surprise me.
Shew! If I'm looking at 300 hours of cab time, and 60 gallons even in a 10 hour day - I'm approaching the cost that's been quoted to me for the job.. This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out - maybe I'll be just as well off hiring it out.. Anyone else have a guess on fuel consumption rates? @skyking1 I appreciate your input!
I think 60 gals would be close. I obviously don't know your exact layout but i am having a hard time seeing how you could get 300 hours wrapped up in a 9000 yd dam. Just my $.02
Well there you go - I have no idea. Was just making a guess based on what I saw on other posts in the forum, but I'm probably not comparing apples to apples. I think somebody pointed out - if I figure an average of 2 minutes per push, and 2 yards per push, then I'm at 4,500 pushes and... I just did the math - it says 150 hours. 2nd Reply here is what I was basing my guess on: HeavyEquipmentForums Basically, having no experience moving dirt with a dozer, I have no way to judge this. What's your estimate? 350' long dam, 22' high
We loaded at a clay pit, tractor shut off after roughly an hours worth of loading off a stockpile, three to four days of three loads in two separate trucks, ate 60 gallon.
I think most Cat machines will run a 10 hour shift on a tank of fuel maybe 12 if doing easier work. Cat might have a chart showing fuel consumption but I'll see if I can find the size of the fuel tank. Found a spec. that shows a 69 gallon fuel tank which would be very close to 60 gallons per 8 hour day like CM posted below. So figure about 7 to 7.5 gallons an hour in fairly heavy digging. I'm assuming the clay will be pretty packed. If the 963 has a ripper could loosen the material to make it easier to dig. If not a heavy disc would help.
60 gallons for a hard 8 hour day should be close for a '63 however the A's and B's were a little better on fuel than the C's at least in the 953 series. If we run our 953C hard all day for 8 HRS it burns 50-55 gallons easily. Trackloaders are thirsty but handy as a shirt pocket.
The 963C looks to have about a 50 HP increase and larger bucket compared to earlier models.
Cat was generally good at sizing fuel capacity for a full days work.
My 931B doesn't have a fuel gauge but uses a dipstick. The dipstick is marked in tenths. It works out pretty close to 1 tenth is good for an hour of work.
As did the 63Bs I ran, simple dipstick and in tenths.
Would be interesting to know why machines built in the 80's and maybe later didn't have a fuel gauge.
Simplicity. Have to get off machines periodically, check all fluids prior to resuming work.
More great info - thank you all! So revised estimate here - maybe I'm looking at 150 hours total seat time in the loader? Still a formidable amount of money in fuel, but manageable and still well below the estimate for someone to do it for me.. Plus I'll get to play in the dirt - that's always worth something.
2 acres, 350' long dam max depth 22'? I think you need to sharpen your pencil a little - Don't think you're going to do that by yourself in 150 hrs with a 963 and 655 unless I missed a few details along the way.
I'd also say that anyone who bid it < 20K is also suspect. Sometimes a bid is too good to be true.
Well, I'm really trying hard to figure this out.. I posted a 300 hour guess earlier in the thread, and someone said there's no way I could sink 300 hours into a 9k yard dam. So I looked at the math a little more and thought maybe 150 hours is in the right ballpark here..? Hell, I have no clue - I'm hoping to hear from everyone here with experience, what their guess would be.. To be clear, I'm just damming up a valley. I don't have to dig a full 2 acre pond out of flat ground. I just have to build the dam, and of course make sure I have a good cover of clay (readily available) over the pond bottom. I need a poll here - how many hours of seat time am I looking at? Btw, quote came in at $14.5k, and they're a reputable local company.
Well we can't give any type of real estimate without seeing and walking the site so any advice outside of that is just a WAG. Any pictures? $14.5K sounds super cheap. If that's the going rate for a project like this including mobilization I'm glad I don't have to compete with them.
I'd not risk your friend's machine and waste your time to beat that. At the end of the month that you have tied up in this project, you have to pay yourself something for the troubles.
Only photo I have right now below, and that was last week when I only had 1 side of the creek cleaned up. Hard to get a good photo of the area - it’s all still wooded right now. Working on that, and I’m just trying to figure out what it’ll take after the trees are gone and roots and limbs are burned, and I’m just working dirt. Before that is all backhoe work, at my leisure, and that thing basically sips fuel comparatively. Fairly steep hill on either side. Down in a valley. I’ll say it winds about 200 yards back into the woods. I’ll see if I can get a better shot of it today
Considered having a logger look at the trees? Might not get much if any for the timber but the trees would be gone. However it could create more work stumping though.
I think it would go faster if you had someone driving a dump truck. You could be pushing up piles while the truck was dumping and then loading what you pushed up. There would be a lot of driving hauling 1 bucket at a time and then non productive time driving back. It could be hard to figure out an average time for each bucket load. Also wondering if you're going to pack the dam as you go? That takes time away from digging material. Also have to consider you're not a seasoned operator so it will take longer to do, likely a lot longer. $14.5K to have it all done seems really really cheap to me too.
Yeah, I’m going to knock trees down, cut stumps off and de-limb myself, then I have a guy coming to get the logs. Won’t get much out of it, but a little toward the fuel bill. Also, I know this is probably hard for some here to understand because this has probably been your job for a good portion of your life - but I work in a damn office all day long. So coming home and running equipment for the evening is enjoyable for me. I don’t owe myself anything for the troubles - the experience and accomplishment I’ll get doing it myself will be more than enough compensation. So long as it’s actually achievable for me within budget - and that’s what I’m making sure of here
Interesting. I’ll have to see if I have a buddy with a dump truck willing to put some time in. I think this only makes sense if there are 2 people, operating the loader and the truck at the same time.
Yes, you'd need someone driving the truck. I remember when a friend ran my skid steer to clear snow while I was working. He said it was fun for the first 4 or 5 hours and then pretty boring after that. Maybe you could get a quote to get the material moved and you do the final finishing? Does the 9000 yards take into account packing?
Don't forget about compaction...... Running over it with a dump truck is not the same. Also, what are your plans for overflow? Maybe it would be worth the investment for a quick survey so you can get some better numbers figured out. I know its always surprising the amount of material that needs moved to get to final grade....
Last pond I saw an estimate for here, 12' depth, 25' levee/dam, back grading of approach and outfall, set of a Drain tile overflow with a Emergency side spillway, over $30k, NO excess tree removals, did allot for a depth of adequate soils base test cut sets. Included Hydroseed.
How so? A loaded tandem dump truck is a great compactor it's just slow compared to an 84" pad foot or smooth drum vibratory roller. Loaded 6x6's are great compactors as well. Keeping loaded trucks on top of the preceding fill lift speeds up compaction and helps the load on the compactor. A friend of mine that is a geotechnical engineer prefers a proof roll with a loaded tandem over a nuke gage his words - "A loaded tandem doesn't lie, a nuke gauge will".
One bad lift of clay will as wet not compact but turn to mush, have to be carful how compact some materials.
Yep a loaded tandem will tell the truth on a lift of clay that was too wet 1' below the surface that's being tested.
What is the compaction rate for clay, 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 or something like that? 9000 yds. compacted would require a lot more material. Without a dump truck and just using the loader would require a perfect moisture content and shallow lifts to get any kind of compaction but still not as much as a dump truck or compactor. It sounds like it would be a good job for a compactor with a blade or wheeled compactor like a Cat 815. The more I look at this job the more I think it would better to hire it out to someone with all the necessary equipment. $14.5K seems like a steal if it includes compaction. A novice operator with just a 963 I think would be there for a long long time and get frustrated with how long it's taking especially if they're also working a full time job. Using the 963 to do clean up and clearing tree's a stumps would be a good plan. When we cleared bush for my oval track we hired it out because although I could have done it, it would have taken forever with my 1yd 931B and backhoe. It cost about $25Kcad. and I'm sure was a lot less than 9000yds. including scraping the topsoil off, digging holes to bury the brush and loading the clay from the holes to put back on the track surface and spread out.
What type of clay? Silty, sandy, lean, fat? Shrink/swell factors vary on the type of clay.
Clay can be unforgiving especially if hit Blue or Hydraulic clay. As I have seen can expand as much as compaction rate just by digging up where 9000yds triples to end up with a finished grade.
There is a long bed of limestone pinnacles with some of the nastiest yellow fat clay that runs through Birmingham. The clay is the color of yellow Play Dough with the consistency just a little wetter. Makes for interesting site prep as the clay has to be removed and the rock either blasted or hammered then structural fill to subgrade. This clay material keeps the shape of the bucket and it's heavy. I figure 6-8 CY per 18 CY tri-axle on haul off depending on how wet it is. The deep foundation companies have a money printing machine as all drilled piers are by the foot and concrete by the yard. It's not uncommon to hit voids in the limestone and dump 200-300 CY of concrete in the void to fill it. Easy money for the foundation company and redimix outfit just back up and dump it in the tremie.
That clay, yuck. I have a brown that is similar in consistency here. This is a pic of me cutting it for that loading dock at work. I could not set the bucket down on it, that is for sure. It will hold water but it too gooey for a pond liner job, unless you hoe placed it and backed your way out of the job. It defeats narrow buckets by not releasing. It took a while to clean up the truck bed afterwords.
Obviously every job is different. I bid on a dam a few months ago. I came in 2nd at @ $92,000. Low bid was $88,000. IIRC it called for @ 20,000 yds of fill but not nearly as many trees as yours and was shallow and wide creek bed. The bid included everything except for tearing out a little bit of fence. Just thought I would give you a little something to refer to.
That's pretty tight on the bid. Sucks when you loose one that close. Did that include a spillway(s) and/or outlet pipe?
Yes, it does suck....... Yes, that included the pipe, spillway, toe drains and seeding.
ALDOT bid a $32 million dollar "park" job under I20/59 in downtown Birmingham and the difference between low bid and second was $200K... We bid with the second bidder..
Sometimes if 1 bid is quite a bit lower than the other bids they will question it and even disregard it. Is the contractor established and known, have they done this type of work before, what kind of equipment do they have, etc. I know a job at the landfill years ago required the contractor had to have machines no older than 1980. One of the D8K's was a 1974 and had to be replaced with a newer machine. Same machine but had to be newer.
I am perfectly fine with a proof rolling with a loaded truck, the issue comes in with how consistent it is. There has to be alot of back and forth with the truck to get compaction. A sheepsfoot roller will do it faster and more consistent. Also, when you get close to the top of the dam, it's likely going to be too narrow to overlap the tire tracks enough to get everything tightened up. You can run a roller up and down a steeper slope than the truck will climb as well. Basically just a better tool for the job.
Don't use a Vibra Pak, tends to bring the Moisture up, makes Soup.
Skyking, we also have that "Yellow ****" here, Clay pits segregate it from the main piles for use as Fill FOR FREE to haul off. Not useful for ANYTHING other than Fill material.
Hopefully on the job in question the clay is a consistant type that's not too hard to work with.
There are tons of lakes in my area, as the ground is pretty prime for lake building. The material in the area I'm looking at - I'd say it's slightly sandy, somewhat rocky. Lot of sandstone in this area. I'll snag a pic of some of the dirt for you all if I get time, but I'm not concerned about the material I'm working with. It's not the slimy unmanageable clay you get in some areas. Compaction is something I certainly have to think about and figure out. Good input from everyone though, and some things I need to consider here.
I took another shot of the area the other night, as I have all the underbrush cleared now. But you still can’t really tell what’s going on here with all the trees still up. I did some better measuring over the weekend too. 350’ was basically a guess on my part, but it turns out I’m really only looking at ~250’ long dam. It’s hard to judge with a bunch of trees in the way So, considerably less dirt than originally thought. Still leaning toward doing this myself though - for the experience as much as anything.. I’ll try to remember to make updates to this thread as I go
Stake out the dam, shoot some elevations and you should be able to calculate the compacted yardage fairly accurately. When I’m calculating a dam I break the profile of it down into various cubes/rectangles and triangles which makes the math easier and more accurate. Don’t forget to include the yardage to put in the core trench. Give us a good yardage estimate and we can nail down your expected time and production a little better. If this is going to be a one man show a scraper is really the tool for the job (provided you have good dirt). Even something as small as a 5yd pull type scraper behind a decent sized farm tractor would handily out preform a 963 once you start to make longer pushes. Might be able to find and old but serviceable one for $5-7k and sell it when your done, borrow or rent a suitable tractor. Will also provide more compaction than a track loader. If you are set on using the equipment you have I’d definitely try to find a dump truck you could hire as needed. Wouldn’t need it for all the dirt moving, but would really speed things up as you starting working further from the dam. Load the bucket of your backhoe and use it to wheel roll it in reasonable lifts. That will give you the compaction you need for a project like this, lots of ponds in the past were just pushed up with a dozer and had very little to no compaction in the dam and they held water (usually.) Compacting with any heavy wheeled equipment is fine for a one off job like this, no need to spend money to buy/rent a sheeps foot roller or pad foot compactor. Good luck with your project and keep the pics and info coming.
Thanks for that! I know most here swear you need a sheep’s foot, but I also know that most people building private dams in this area haven’t used one.. My plan was basically what you outlined - good to hear some agreeance there. I’ll take a look around for a scraper. It would be easier for me to borrow and get a large tractor here, than it would be the dozer I have in mind. Excellent feedback - I appreciate that. I drew the dam out in Google Sketchup, and came up with around 7k yards. I’m not worried about the time the keyway will take - I’ll do that with my backhoe, on my own time as time allows leading up to the dam. And the backhoe sips fuel comparatively - it’s a big day if I burn through 10 gallons. My concern is in the dozer / scraper work building the dam, how long that will take me, and how much fuel I’m going to pour into it. Whichever I use won’t be mine, so I’ll be on limited time with it. And I have a limited budget. So yes - an educated estimate on that would help me plan. We’re probably talking a mostly one-man show here, with the occasional friend stopping by to run the hoe while I'm in the dozer / scraper. Thank you for the in-depth response!
do not delay the keyway until you have to dig full depth with the backhoe. That is not productive. Do it as you raise up the dam.
Not sure I follow? The keyway has to be dug and filled, and compacted first, from my understanding - before the dam is placed over the top of it..? My plan is to get topsoil off in the dam area, dig the keyway with the backhoe, fill it back in with good clay and compact. Finish the keyway first, before I start moving dirt for the dam. Remember - 1 man show here, and the backhoe is here and it's mine. I can do keyway work before the dozer even arrives. I need to be ready to just move dirt as quick as possible once the dozer is here, and get the project finished while the weather is cooperative.
Every dam that I have been involved with building the keyway is the most stressful part. Usually have a temp dam holding the water back while you hustle to get the muck out and dry dirt back in and compacted before the water goes over the temp dam. Your situation might be different.
I would keep going with really good material on top of the keyway. That is what I meant. If you had some really impervious clay but not much of it, keep going up with it.
On the Cowlitz falls dam, we were racing the river coming up and dozer diving off the haul road, and then cut a slot in it and poured a concrete core. His dam should go in the dry season. I don see any water there at all.
I see. Yeah - most of the dirt out here is suitable clay. Won't be any problem sourcing good keyway / dam material.. I'm in a valley, with decent elevation fall at the dam. There's normally no water running, or no water at all in this area. It drains out fast. I don't think I'll need to build a temp dam or hold any water back in any way. I'll pick a dry week and take 3 or 4 days or longer to get the keyway in if I need to. Anyway, I'm not concerned with time or fuel needs for the keyway. I'll figure that out.. As I've been saying - I'm trying to figure out dozer time & fuel for the dam. 7k yards of material pushed into a dam..
I’m not sure if it has cy/hr calculations for track loaders pushing or carrying dirt, but the Cat Performance Handbook would be a good place to start. For dozers it has charts giving an estimate of how many cy/hr you can move for each model, based on distance and a couple other factors. Should also have fuel burn rates if I recall correctly. See if you can find a pdf or hard copy of one of the older versions of the handbook with the models you are working with. Maybe some of the guys on here with experience with the 963 can tell you roughly what size dozer would equal the ‘blade capacity’ of that loader. I don’t have a ton of time running big track loaders, but I do know that you can push a good bit more than you can carry albeit at a slower pace. Not sure at what distance carrying 2yds is faster than pushing 4yds (just random #s) but I’m sure the track loader guys could tell you. If you start loading it on trucks it’s going to come down to cycle times and how much fluff you have to deal with. I do have more experience with pull type scrapers and can give you some guidelines on estimating that if you decide to go that route.
Another thing, and you may have addressed this and I missed it, it the stand pipe/over flow. The way we do ponds, and that which is reccomended by NRCS, is to run a horizontal pipe through the dam and then have a vertical stand pipe which sets the water level. There is also an emergency spill way. You can run the horizontal pipe the full thickness of the dam, with a vertical Tee to connect the stand pipe. This way you have an open pipe at the lowest point of the dam to keep water flowing out during construction. You can then either cap it when you are ready to fill the pond or add a gate valve so you can drain the pond later if need be(although its hit or miss if it still works 20yr down the road.) You’ll need at least one or two anti-seep collars around this horizontal pipe. The pipes will need to be sized to the number of acres in your drainage basin, not necessarily the size of the pond. We’ve got one 4ac pond thats spring feed with very little acreage draining into it and the stand pipe is only 6”. Or you could have a little 1/2ac pond but with several hundred acres of drainage and a 4’ dia standpipe would barely be adequate. Charts are available from USDA and NRCS to figure this if you haven’t already.
Yes, thanks! I've done quite a bit of research for the drain pipe, but haven't fully decided what route I'll take. Using a bottom horizontal pipe with a riser carries a lot more cost, but does allow drainage.. I think I can get away with an 8" pipe in that configuration. I'm looking at a drainage basin of 10 fully wooded acres. Otherwise a 12" corrugated overflow running down inside the top of the dam. Much cheaper - can't ever fully drain with this, but easily replaceable / serviceable if ever needed. I think I have a handle on the options - just need to make my decision.
For anyone wondering, this is the current view of the project Power steering hose busted under the fuel tank. Required removal of the fuel tank, as well as the steering column to get to it.. Gotta love burning a week of good weather on repairs!
¨ Pride of Ownership¨
I think a larger dozer like a D5 or bigger will keep boiling material when pushing where a track loader will hit its limit and won't be able to do as long of push. Probably most efficient doing short pushes and making piles to load in a dump truck. Digging bucket fulls and then carrying 7000yds. seems to me would take an awfully long of time and waste production and fuel. At least with a dump truck you could keep pushing material while waiting for the truck to come back for another load. 7000yds. even 3yds. at a time is still over 2300 trips and half the time is driving back with no production. Depending on the packing rate could be even more trips. Dump truck could carry 4 bucketfuls maybe a little more. Even with just 1 person loading and then driving the truck you'd have increased production over carrying 1 bucket at a time.
963 will roll up around four yards heaped, as I loaded Clay here was Two reasonable buckets Forward, Two Rearward then a modest bucket midway on the bed of the Quad I ran, just where could see the crown of Clay load, that figured to around 44500-46000 load weight, Had some real days where got heavy handed and ended up close to 78K gross. Bed was listed as a 24 yard. Figures around 25 yards moist heaped so around a heavy four yards per bucket full. Will lose some while tracking, is inevitable. Know for a Fact a D7E mid 1970s with a 10' Semi U will shove at least eight yards along.
As to Overflow style drain, Nuke I worked at had Off Levee Drains, Standpipes of Concrete Manhole style where were Seconds, a Full 24" Concrete Bell and Spigot Concrete Pipe run under the Levee today could be replaced with Double Wall convoluted HDPE, less apt to slip or separate, Concreted in base of Concrete Manhole tower. Expensive but far more functional, also see that used in Runoff Drain Retention Basins. For farm Ponds here they use up Old Truck and tractor Tires, Drain pipe ran to a spot, El or Turn placed and then stack larger to smaller tires as go up, filling with Creek Rock as rises, with a Pipe in Center from that El or turn. Still buried beneath the Levee Key. Steel can be done as well but price again is unreasonable unless find Salvage in size wanted.
I am completely unfamiliar with soil conditions in Indiana, and permitting as well. I did not read the entire thread closely, but I did not see mention of permits. Where I live this would require permitting with the state, and that permit would require building specifications along with a design before approval for any impoundment of live water. Also, once the impoundment height exceeds 12' the permit requirements escalate exponentially. Here, state permits as well as Army Corps permits would be required at a minimum, with possible Fish and Game and USFWS permits. This assumes that the water source is more than just run-off of surrounding property. None of this may apply, but it would be good to verify prior to construction. If local contractors have given bids without mention of permits, than maybe nothing is required? As far as design goes, it sounds like some research has been done, and 3 or 4 to 1 slopes were mentioned. In my experience from similar projects slopes should be 3:1 minimum on the upstream side, but can be 1:1 on the downstream side. That said, for maintenance and added security building the downstream side so that one can get on it with a dozer might be prudent. 3:1 slopes on both sides would probably be preferable. Having the knowledge and equipment to set the toe of slope locations as well as the ability to bring the slopes up correctly should be considered as well. There has been plenty of suggestions regarding the importance of proper uniform compaction, so no need to add to that other than to say this should be done with at least two machines. One to push up and lay out material, and another to process and compact the material at a minimum. In our part of the world a water truck is a necessity as well. As far as fuel consumption goes, the Cat Handbook shows a low of 3.5 gallons per hour to a high of 7.5 gallons per hour, depending on work load. Given the intended use for this project, I suspect 6 gallons per hour will probably be fairly accurate. So as mentioned before, 60 gallons per 10 hour shift should be close. A general rule of thumb for earthmoving: No method is less expensive than using a dozer up to 300' of push. There are many conditions and circumstances that can negate this rule of thumb, like type of material, footing, pushing level versus uphill, appropriate size of dozer, etc. If one has the use of a 963 for the operating cost alone versus renting a dozer, this would not apply either. Anyway, to sum it all up, a 20' impoundment is a serious project as the consequences of the dam failure could be catastrophic. Also, I can't imagine a scenario where even the earthmoving and compaction portion alone could cost less than $3.00 per CY in place. Then add control structure and spillway costs and this would easily be a $50,000 or more project in my neck of the woods ( anybody priced pipe lately?). I hope some of this helps!
I've heard tell of the DNR, BLM, or Forest Service will split the costs of a pond if they can access it for firefighting like drafting water with a truck or dipping with a chopper. They may have opinions on how they want it done, however. That was also 15 years ago.
This is very helpful, thank you! Soil conditions here are really about as good as it gets for pond building, and the area I'm working in is no exception. I did a little more soil exploration this weekend while I'm clearing trees, and it was all prime, loose but compactible clay. As I mentioned before, there's a pond around every corner here in southern Indiana, because the dirt is prime for it. Pond Permits in Indiana start above 20' dam height - thus, the height for my dam. Below 20' no approval needed. I need a $20 construction permit to move the dirt in my county - that's all. The fuel consumption numbers are very helpful - thank you! The full length of the pond will be ~500', but I should be able to source all the dam soil from much closer than that. I'm thinking the borrowed 963 is still my best ticket for the job here.. Still looking at scrapers - may end up using both I appreciate all the input from everyone on overflow design. I am on a budget though, so it will likely be just a 12" double wall corregated pipe set at desired lake height and run just under the surface of the dam. This is the most cost-effective method, it's what I've seen on most ponds around here, and it's easily serviced. I won't be able to ever drain the pond with this, but I can find other ways for that if I ever need to.
As to the overflow, if you use a horizontal culvert instead of a vertical stand pipe there are a couple downfalls you need to be aware of. First, if you use a 12” culvert for example, the level of the pond has to rise 12” before full flow is achieved. With a standpipe full flow is achieved with only a 2-3” rise of the pond level. Be sure you have plenty of freeboard height on the dam and a good spill of emergency spillway (which you should have both regardless.) Second, erosion is a real problem with a culvert for an overflow. During heavy flow it creates a vortex near the bank washing the dirt away around it. Use plenty of rip rap around the pipe and make sure the downstream side goes all the way to the bottom of the dam. There is a third option, which is to build a standpipe but closer to the finished height. In this setup you’d put a horizontal pipe in with an L and maybe 4-5’ of vertical pipe. The stand pipe may only be 5-10’ away from the shore in this scenario, but would still provide most of the benefits with much less cost. You could even use 12” double wall black culvert pipe if you could find an L.
Will double wall corrugated pipe be water tight enough at the connections, for an underwater connection? I guess I assumed it would not be, therefore didn’t consider vertical culvert pipe as an option. You can buy 90 degree fittings for it though - this may be a consideration.. I watched a video today though of a guy who broke a T in his 8” PVC pipe at the bottom of the dam while building, and didn’t know it. Pond would never fully fill up - ended up having to dig the overflow pipe back out. He had more problems than that - didn’t do his homework and wasn’t careful in what he was doing. But it really reinforced that I don’t want to dig a full 20’ high dam out to work on a drain pipe. I have plenty of creek stone for the outlet - pretty sure I’ll do horizontal double wall. And yeah - plenty of dam above pipe level, and an emergency spillway planned in.
ADS makes a soil tight and water tight joint. Submital package for a watertight joint. https://assets.adspipe.com/m/4520cdffa033cf12/original/N-12-Water-Tight-per-ASTM-F2648-Submittal-Package.pdf?_gl=1*1yt9c95*_ga*MjA4Mzg0Mzc3OS4xNjkyMTAwODc0*_ga_1TPLC9D3R7*MTY5MjEwMDg3NS4xLjEuMTY5MjEwMTExNi4yMS4wLjA. Never used a water tight joint as soil tight is all that is spec’d for storm drainage. I would also recommend HP pipe instead of N12. HP is the grey pipe and much stronger. SaniTite HP Pipe | Gravity Flow Sanitary Sewer Pipe from ADS SaniTite® HP dual wall and triple wall pipe by Advanced Drainage Systems is specifically engineered for the gravity flow sanitary sewer market. www.adspipe.com I would suggest a pre-cast OCS and use the ADS water tight gaskets. Also couple of concrete anti-seep collars along the way. This type of ADS is only available at commercial pipe suppliers. Do not use the single wall pipe at HD or Tractor Supply.
Yeesh. I have a ~100 gallon tank on my 977.
Run it hard a day for 10-12 hours, see where the fuel level sits.
Latest progress on the lake. The ol’ 655C has been working her tail off! Have all the trees knocked down that I need to - about 4 acres worth. Got a logger coming in the next few weeks, and I’m getting a pretty fair deal on the timber. Moving along here!
Heard you all might be interested in an update... Lake is coming along! I got all the trees knocked down, got a logger to come get the sellable timber, and I’m almost finished pushing and burning limbs and leftover stumps, logs, etc. Moving along nicely!
I do have a burning question now though.. I have been able to convince a friend to loan me the CAT 963 I was originally banking on. Needing to get it hauled to my place soon. See the photo of the machine below. Can anyone help me identify this thing further? I beleive it's probably a 963B? And I'm trying to figure out the weight of it, but what I'm finding online is all over the place. I saw as low as 19.4 Tons, and as much as 55k pounds. And I think these are probably both well away from reality - my best guess right now is 44k pounds / 22 tons. Anyone have any better insight here?
From the decals it's a 963, a pre-B model in other words. Only a Serial Number would confirm that one way or the other. With a Serial Number would come a better estimation of the weight.
Update. No ripper, a rear bumper, and a 4-in-1 instead of the standard bucket will put about 2500 pounds on top of the standard machine. In total somewhere around 43-45k pounds.
Agree with Nige, need s/n. Smaller 'Cannon' track adjuster indicates Plain Jane 963 along with Smaller windows and doors of Cab. Wish had that here.
Did you clear and grub all of that with your backhoe? If so God Bless you as you have the patience of Job.
Thank you Gentlemen. I was guessing 44k. Working on finding someone to deliver it for me.
I did / I have. Put about 300 hours on the backhoe since the start of the project. It’s been a job, but it’s fun work. Gonna try to put the dam together myself too with the dozer above. And believe it or not, I’m doing this with a full time job, a 15 year old in high school sports, and I’m a single man so I take care of all the house chores too. I basically haven’t done anything else all year - when I have 10 minutes, I’m working on the lake!
Now that's determination! Well done!
Dunno how people with young kids do it. At least by 12-13ish they are generally usefull enough to be a helper though. I've brought the dog out on jobs and hours later realize I hadn't seen him for a while. Forgot I put him in the truck once. Was whining he was cold. Like 2 hours later I'm thinking ****, where did he go? The ocean is nearby, a creek as well and it was probably -20* I walk out to the truck to go track him down fearing the worst and derrrrpp.
My daughter has been out here with me through the whole process of buying the land, putting a driveway in, clearing and building a house. Since she was 6 years old. She’s been a hell of a trooper through it all. Used to fall asleep in the back seat of the truck at the land, more often than in her bed at home. She’s a smart kid with a great attitude though, so it’s been easy with her. A different kind of kid could be a totally different story.
Looking good. I can appreciate the work you are doing. I purchased some land that has a pond on it. It was supposed to about 8 acres when full. The dam is 30' high it seems and covered in big trees. It is also steep and the lower side of the dam is very wet and swampy. It has a corrugated pipe threw the bottom with a 1" thick solid black sandpipe that is about 12 or 15"s round I have not been able to look into it since the pipe comes up out of the water and into the air. Lake is about an acre now and it is about 4 or 5 feet deep I got in and found a gate valve near the pipe. Mine has a leak coming threw the dam about 5 or 8 feet away from the pipe. There is so much dirt there and no good way to try to dig into it. I have yet to come up with what needs to be done to fix it with out spending months to work on it. So I would definitely take your time and do it right.
There is a Porous layer or a failed compaction layer in the Dam, will hate to hear but unless want to experiment with truckloads of Bentonite will need to remove everything including draining the pond to restructure that levee.
Hey guys! How am I doing here? I took delivery of the 963 last Wednesday afternoon, and got her hung up Wednesday evening.. You guys weren’t kidding that these things get hung up easily! And maybe more-so what I didn’t realize, is that it doesn’t help itself out of a sticky situation like the ol backhoe does.. I was basically driving around, getting the hang of the thing, and decided to go down a small incline to push some trunks around a little. Apparently hit a wet spot, and when I tried to reverse up the hill, I sunk instead. Should have stopped there and waited a couple days for it to dry, but I got impatient. 4 full evenings of working at it later, I got the damn thing out tonight.. Few questions for you all, now that I’ve had some time to operate the machine. - It pulls left when going forward, pretty noticeably. I think I read there’s an adjustment for the motors somewhere? I’ll share the serial number plate in the next post - think I can only share 4 photos at a time here. - When reversing and rotating counter-clockwise, so using the right brake, it seems to be weak. Doesn’t turn nearly as well as the other direction. Maybe related to above? - After warmed up, when I idle it down, it has low oil pressure and the light and warning buzzer come on. How concerning is this? Anything to check, or is that just a feature of an 8k hour machine? - Is the chassis not grounded on these machines? Or perhaps is it positive ground? The negative battery post was hitting the engine cover / door, and was arcing. I was surprised my this - thought the chassis would be negative ground. Thanks All! - Backer
Serial number plate. Machine: 06Z01395*8G1414 Engine: 07Z11025*7N2330 Transmission: 4TA02165*3G1197
I'd suspect it's 24 volt with 2 batteries? Then the negative on 1 battery is connected to the positive on the other so it may be the positive current flow is actually arcing. Fix it so the door can't hit the battery post or cable connection. You don't want to fry any of the electrics or electronics. My battery cover is very close to the top of the battery so I have a thick piece of rubber over the top of the battery posts.
It's a pretty quick learning curve. If you ever can't get it out and you need someone with bigger machines on-site you won't be happy. I know ofa guy that lost his 53 that way. It settled on in during the night. 4 machines to get it out and the motor was ruined. Rule of thumb is if you feel it slow down you better watch out. I would avoid all the wet areas it not worth it. Those lovely videos of dozers cleaning mucky lake bottoms on YouTube can make it easy to loose perspective. They normally have rescue equipment on site and know when to hook it up. One of the worst things is taking out a stump and falling in the wet hole or jambing the stump and it grabbing the skid plates and making you high center. I have spent a LOT of money on recovery gear and big winches.
Wise words above. In the worst areas, you get an experienced guy on a big excavator with a whole bunch of crane mats to go out and do what you need done. And you pay him well.
Have witnessed muck dozers cabled up prior to entries, most needed it to back out.
You are correct. I did a little more looking tonight, and there’s another battery on the opposite side of the machine that I didn’t see in the dark the other night. All makes sense now. I appreciate the wisdom. I learned a lesson last night - we’ll see if it sticks with me. I can be a slow learner in these regards sometimes.. To be clear, it wasn’t mucky on top. It all seemed dry. But it was awful soft underneath.. I have plenty of dry area to work in for now - will get into this area again when it’s good and dry.. Still curious about the drive disparity mentioned above if anyone has any info on that for this machine.
Check that your foot pedals are not corroded and that the tightness is the same on them
Also make sure no debris around the pedal controls. May need to raise operating can and inspect the systems under.
The cab is clean, pedals operate smoothly, the right pedal might feel a little easier to press but not significantly. I'll just have to dig in a little bit and learn what makes them tick.. I was just thinking that, with the pedals completely not pressed, the machine should track fairly straight forward, and maybe the weak turning would be related to not tracking straight. Seems like the left track just moves a little weaker than the right.
I forget. Is this your machine now or is it a loaner.? The reason I ask is that it is an early hydrostatic-drive loader model with all-mechanical controls for the drive system. Later models have electronic controls and can be calibrated. Attempting to set up a mechanical hystat system with no prior experience is not recommended. Even experienced technical people shy away from them. I will defer to the expert on these machines @Cmark to give you more info. Having said the above it could be nothing more serious that internal leakages in control lines requiring new seals.
It’s a loaner from a friend, who probably doesn’t pay attention to anything on the machine himself, but pays an experienced mechanic to service it occasionally. However, they aren’t doing a great job or haven’t done it recently. I resisted playing around more tonight, and did some work on the machine instead. I found that the hydraulic fluid was considerably low. I dumped a nearly full 5 gallon bucket in, and it still doesn’t register on the sight glass. I’m surprised the hydraulics worked at all. The bucket tilt was backward from what I’m used to in my TLB - the 963 was set up that you push forward on the lever and the bucket tilted back. Pull back on the lever and the bucket tilted forward.. Couldn’t get used to that, so I swapped lines tonight. Pulled the access panels under the cab open to see what I could learn. I assume the sight glass forward of the engine is for the drive system? It too, showed no fluid in the sight window. It wasn’t sitting quite level when I looked, but not far off and leaning toward the side of the sight glass, so I would have expected if anything it would have shown high. I’ll get it on flat ground tomorrow and check again, but I imagine it needs a lot of oil too. And from a quick search here I believe Nige is saying I’ll need 10w hydraulic oil, same as hydraulic system? The silver fill cap appears to lead to this sight window - anyone know what the red fill cap goes to? And where I check that level? I can look more tomorrow, just ran out of time tonight.. I guess let me ask this.. If I just deal with the machine pulling to one side, and not turning well while backing up (it seems to do just fine going forward) am I going to screw something up? At the end of July it’ll be going back to its rightful owner - I just want it to make it through my lake build. Or if I can fix something without a mountain of effort or money, I want to do that for my buddy - least I can do to repay him for use of the machine. Just don’t want something to get considerably worse while I have it, because of me not taking care of a problem. I also have a track tensioner that doesn’t seem to be holding tension. Will try to put some grease in that tomorrow, but I assume it may need rebuilt. Seemed adjusted well when I got it - it’s slowly losing tension. Got a few things to do before I really get going here, but overall the machine seems to be in good shape.
Attached is some stuff you may find helpful. If you have any other questions after going through it please ask Oil for the pump drive box, hydrostatic transmission, and implement hydraulic system should all the the same SAE10W hydraulic oil for your location. I would suggest you ask your friend what he uses in the final drives but by the book it should be an SAE50 oil meeting Cat TO-4 specification.
Nige I’ve read a lot of threads on here, and you’re just some kind of super human - knowledgeable about everything and always willing to help. Can’t express enough what an asset you are - to the world. We’d all be better off if we would all take on a portion of your attitude and work ethic. Thanks. I’m sure my friend doesn’t know what a final drive is. I’ll see if I can talk to his mechanic.
He probably uses EP90 gear oil or similar. If you have to top it up you really should use the same, despite it not being the recommended oil. I forgot to mention that SAE10W TO-4 oil could also be used wherever the manual calls for 10W hydraulic oil.
The red filler cap is for the splitter box. There should be a dipstick under it. I would like to suggest you do the checks I wrote about on page 2 of this thread and report back. For digging rock and tree clearing 977L, 963 or 973 with or without a 4 in 1 Thought maybe there was some folks that had spent time in the 977l and then moved to newer machines. My 977l is going to be a farm machine(if I keep it). I want to dig up some somewhat soft limestone with it. Small stuff for roads big stuff for retaining walls. I just retired at 55. I have quite... HeavyEquipmentForums If you're keen to shortcut the troubleshooting process, your problem sound like it may be similar to this one. Cat 953 travel problem Hello new member here. I have an early 80s 953 78y01021 intermittent left side tracking problem. Bare with me as this is hard for me to explain, the left track doesn't engage at all times but sometimes will and it's fine until you stop again forward or reverse. We did a test so to speak when it... HeavyEquipmentForums
At high idle, on solid level ground, both tracks start moving at the same time going forward or reverse, even at the slightest movement. I did notice when I was hung up in the mud the other day, and there was basically no weight on the tracks, moving FNR forward, right track moves slightly before the left. Didn’t take much more movement of FNR for the left to start, but it was a slight bit behind. On solid ground though, no difference. At medium slow speed. Push left pedal slowly, it will turn slowly, both tracks still driving. Push left pedal more, left track will stop. To the floor, left track counter-rotate. Same in reverse. At medium slow speed moving forward, push right pedal slowly, it turns right, both tracks still driving. Push right pedal more, right track will stop, and push further it will counter steer. In reverse however, push right pedal a little, and it doesn’t seem to do anything. Just keeps driving backward. In-fact, sometimes at just the right amount of reverse on the FNR, it will actually steer the wrong way - left track stops, and right track continues to power backward. However, give it a little more lever and it turns correctly. It’s only at the first 1/4 of reverse travel on the lever that it acts up. And this is all true of any RPM. Basically machine does all movements as expected, except with low speed reverse request on the FNR, using right pedal, regardless of throttle or RPM, that is the only place it malfunctions. So basically while digging tonight, I simply had to commit to hard right turns when in reverse. Give it enough FNR and it behaves pretty nicely. Machine seems to move forward about as fast as it should. Brisk walk / slow jog. I could outrun it for 30 ft until I ran out of breath.. Engine does not bog at full speed at all. I’ve been hauling heaping buckets of coal shale up a 14% grade and it does bog and slow, but still keeps a respectable pace up the hill. Also with a load like that, it seems to pull less hard to the left. Machine pulls to the left when going forward, and backward. Slow speed, high speed, seems to be consistent no matter the speed. I’d say by 100 feet I’m facing 10 degrees to the left and 10’ off my original center line. Slam into neutral or slam center brake - does not lurch to either side - it stops evenly. Driving into a pile, the tracks will spin and engine will load up but stay revved. Pulling up on the bucket and still moving forward, RPM’s drop but engine pulls strong / have to completely load up hydraulics to bog engine. Park on a hill, put in neutral, doesn’t move. I did notice it will roll back a little on a hill before going forward, when slowly pulling FNR forward. Filled the transmission up tonight with $100 of TO-4 and moved a bunch of dirt with it - everything else seems pretty solid, and this track travel issue is not a show stopper, so long as I’m not going to ruin the machine further by running it like this for a couple hundred hours
On the whole, it sounds like it's running pretty good for an old girl. Because the right pedal functions OK in FWD, that would seem to eliminate the external linkages from the problem. Not that you shouldn't check/lubricate/repair them as necessary of course. If you're keen to get to the bottom of this, you're going to have to remove the lid from the tranny and inspect the internal linkages and flexible servo lines. If as you say, it's not a show stopper, I don't think you're going to damage anything by running it. How's your overall mechanical repair skills? If you intend to get into it, I would say you need to be at maybe a 3 out of 5 level.
Cmark, thank you so much. I’m confident I could get in there and figure things out. I’m also confident I don’t want to if I don’t have to. We’re gonna run ‘er and so long as it doesn’t get worse, we’re just going to build a lake here! Thanks everyone! I’ll be following up with pics of the progress!
I would suggest that if you do nothing else just make sure all the compartments are filled to the correct levels with the right type of oil.
This has all been completed except final drives - will be checking those today since it poured rain over night. Thanks Nige!
Find out what oil is in them before you go adding, if necessary of course. If there is EP Gear oil in them you ought to be able to detect it. To me it smells like rotten eggs, or at least whiffs heavily of sulphur.
Ok next hurdle here.. Started messing with the right side track tensioner - it’s been losing tension slowly as I run it. Opened the lid, put a grease gun on it, can’t get it to connect well enough to get any grease in it. The grease just squirts out the sides - it doesn’t build pressure or anything, so it’s not like it’s clogged. Seems the zerk is worn out and needs replaced. So I finagle a wrench in there and get the zerk loose, but it won’t come all the way out. It hits the guard over the top of it - the zerk is bigger than the hole in the guard. I can’t seem to figure out if the guard comes off? There are 4 bolts between the guard and the housing it butts up against - do I remove these bolts, and that does something for me? Seems like a really poor setup - should be easy to replace a grease zerk.. Anybody familiar and know what to do? Btw, talked to my buddy about this tensioner. He said he’s been pulling the front idler out with a backhoe, then he can get grease to go into the tensioner So I’m thinking it might hold tension if I can get it to hold grease, instead of just creating a void in the cylinder.. Goodness, it’s a wonder this machine is running at all
Here's a part diagram on the tensioner from a 953 BBX series. It should be similar. I've had to replace the grease zerk on our 953 and the plate does have to come off. Be warned it's a mess.
Thanks! I’m afraid it’s different than this diagram. No worries though. I’m picked up a high-grip grease gun tip, and it took grease and tightened right up! Raining today, so we’ll have to wait to see if it’s going to hold tension.
CAT 963 is one of the best machine
Making progress out here! Got the keyway all in, and started moving dirt. Just working on the high ends of the dam first, I’ll get as much done there as I can before I close the ditch in and have to really go for it. Machine is running great! Track tensioner I was worried about is holding beautifully. I still have A LOT of dirt to move though. Headed to San Antonio for the weekend - will get back and hit it hard next week..
That is COOL!
If you do a stand pipe style overflow you can leave the horizontal leg open until the pond is finished to act as a culvert. That's what we do, takes some of the pressure off you not having to worry about the pond filling too soon, and IMO it's a better style overflow as well.
Yes, this is the main reason I entertained that overflow style. But the cost is prohibitive.. Do you use PVC? Someone here said they use double wall corrugated for under-water vertical pipe?
Sch 40 PVC or SDR 35 for 12" diameter or less. In the past we used corrugated galvanized for a large 48" standpipe, never tried plastic. Do they make T-fittings for the double wall corrugated plastic? I'd be concerned about leaks at the joints, maybe encase them in concrete?
Yes ADS makes Tees, Wyes, 90's, 45's, 22.5's, etc. There is a soil tight and water tight gasket option. Have a job coming up with a bunch of fittings and Nyoplast inlets. Dual Wall - Tees www.adspipe.com I have never used the water tight fittings since all the HDPE we install is for storm drainage.
I’ve been making good progress on the dam! But will be down for repairs for a bit here. More on that in a minute.. Here’s the progress as of this weekend. I’ve got both ends of the dam built up to height, nearly about as far as I can go without closing the creek in. I did have to re-dig part of the keyway. There was water coming up in the creek, about 30’ below the keyway. I dug the first time about 8’ deep down at the bottom of the hill, and through the ditch, and even hit water when I got down there. But apparently it wasn’t deep enough, and water was getting underneath yet. And I remember not getting to anything real solid, but telling myself I was below water so it was good enough.. I was wrong.. Dug it back out, and had to go 10’-14’ deep to get to solid bottom clay. Closed it back up this weekend, and so-far no more water running below the keyway. So I was ready to take a few days off work and hit this dam hard and finish it up! Then tonight, pushing some junk soil up the hill, the machine started bouncing. I look out and the right side track is completely loosened up.. This is the same track my buddy couldn’t get to tension, so he was just pulling it out with a backhoe.. I got it to take grease and tensioned it up before I started the project, and it’s held tight for over 50 hours of operation now. But it totally **** the bed tonight. I tensioned it back up, which it did tension well, but after just one more trip up the hill it was slacked out again, and there’s a pile of grease inside under the tensioner cylinder. So unless there’s some trick I don’t know, or something else this could be that I need to check first, it looks like I’ll be pulling the tensioner out for a rebuild. Anyone have a link to a good how-to? List of parts I’ll need? I assume track needs to be split to do this? I’ve never had a tracked machine - this is all new to me.. Thanks for any help. - Backer
If it came out of the seal area then yes, you need to pull it. If it is at the fill check valve then that is where you need to go.
Is the machine I have, going to be same setup as I see in this video? Y'all think I can get it done without splitting the track? Seemed like the puddle of grease was back below where the cylinder comes out of the housing, but maybe I didn't look closely enough - maybe it's coming from below the flange connection where the zerk is.? I'll have to take another look tonight.. Would be nice if I didn't have to split the track and pull that idler forward! Also, obviously need to source a good seal kit. I looked on CAT's website at break here, but couldn't find a rebuild kit. Diagram just shows the cylinder as a unit as far as I could see.. I'm in southern Indiana if there's a good shop in the area I can get parts from. - Backer
Probably not. The track loaders tensioner mechanism is generally different to a tractor. Post a Serial Number for accurate information. Not likely to be a kit for a track tensioner. Usually it's only a couple of seals. The quick answer is probably not. However if the track links have loads of wear you might be able to get the track off to the side enough to allow the idler & tensioner mechanism to be pulled out from the front. The track should have a crocodile-style master link which is not hard to get apart. Have you looked for one.?
To expand on what Skyking was saying, if the grease was leaking out around the ram seals then it needs pulled, but it is possible that the valve where the grease fitting is isn't tightened all the way. This is unlikely as you were able to tighten the track, but it might be possible for grease to leak back out once pressure is on it in operation if it weren't tightened all the way. So, like he said, determine if the grease is coming out around the grease fitting area or around the ram.
Serial # is 06Z01395 I called the local CAT shop, and they sent me the parts explosion below: I believe I'm probably looking at the top left section, items 1,2,12,13. Not sure what item 3 is? Also, it's not clear to me what that sectoin on the bottom is? I'll get home and start tearing into it - was just hoping it may be obvious what I would need, and I could maybe get the parts on order ahead of time. Time being of the essence here.. Track seems to be fairly tight, so I'll probably have to split it. It was basically dark when it happened last night so I haven't looked for the master link yet, but stayed up watching some youtube videos last night. Believe I know what I'm looking for when I get home. Where would everyone suggest I position that master link before separating? 1/4 track length behind the front idler, roughly? I assumed that was the message there. Not leaking at the grease zerk or the relief valve. Seems to be the piston / Ram seals. Sounds like track off, piston out, replace seals.. Thanks All!
Pity it was only half the story. The front idler & tensioner is is 2 parts but they only sent you one making interpreting it impossible..... Attached the full parts list. Note that the quantities are for BOTH sides, so to do one side you will only need half of what's listed. I've highlighted what I think you may need. The lip seals #6 and the bushes in the support (#10 in Part 1) may also require replacement. You will have fun removing the bulkhead. The extractor holes will certainly need tapping out before installing the forcing screws and it will probably need plenty of heat in addition to the screws (plus maybe the biggest hammer you have) to get it to move. Plenty of anti-seize called for when reinstalling.
Quick Update: I decided I and my toolbox weren’t up to the task above. I have most the backhoe tools I need, but I had no way to break any of those big bolts on the bulkhead or front idler loose. So I found a local guy who came out and used the manual above to work on it.. Turns out, the manual doesn’t match the machine I have here. No hard feelings, I really appreciate all the help I’ve gotten here.. But the tensioner cylinder doesn’t quite fit out the front. Repair guy said the frame mount arm / whatever it’s called, stuck out too far and wouldn’t quite allow the tensioner cylinder out. So he had to take the whole track frame off to get the tensioner out. Good news is, he turned out to be a hard working hell of a mechanic, with a very decent labor rate. Worked 2 days out here, and labor and parts and everything came out below $2k. He got a little cash bonus with his payment - I was very happy with his service. Mehringer Diesel Repair out of Jasper, IN if anyone needs a good mechanic in the area. Track is now holding tension, and I’m moving dirt as fast as I can! Progress in pics below!
Looks pretty good.
Well done!
Is that normal needing to remove the whole track frame to get the tensioner out?
No, but if the bulkhead has never been removed before and is sezied then it may need more access to get at things than can be achieved by just removing the idler.
He said he got the bulkhead out, but the tensioner wouldn’t slide past the frame mount. Excuse my terminology, I don’t know exactly what it’s called. The track on this machine seems to be different than is in the manual. I’ll grab a pic here shortly and explain better..
Nige, were any of these equipped with a Dozer 'Cannon' setup?
You can see here the loader has an additional opening in the side of the track frame, where the track frame mounts to the arm going to the frame of the machine on the back side. It also supports the rod to the front idler, and has grease zerks on it. He took the cap off that, pulled the bulkhead loose, but said he couldn’t get the tensioner cylinder out because that mounting arm was still in the way. From what I can see, the manual doesn’t show this extra opening / front idler rod support.
Progress report for today: I ran out of usable dirt last night in the area I had cleared, so had to go on a dirt hunt today.. My cousin came out with his Mini and started clearing trees for me, while I started putting the rocky, sandy material available on the back side of the dam. I’m still several feet short in the middle - should be able to find enough when these trees are cleared. It’s comical how the pictures don’t show the enormity of this dam. It’s every bit of 20’ tall on the wet side, and another 8-10 high on the dry side. For a one man show, I’m pretty proud of what I’ve gotten done here so-far. Or at least I will be if it holds water
We got a little rain this morning. I realize this is no real indicator of whether this thing will actually hold water when it’s full, but I don’t mind a good omen.. Water held there all day!
How are you packing the dam dirt? The dirt in spots looks loose and dry.
I’ve been packing it with the backhoe. You’re correct - this is an unpacked layer, and it’s very dry. The rain helped get some moisture back into things, and I’ll pack it with the backhoe / track loader before another layer. I was pushing dirt along the top today, out to the middle, so the overflow fell off either side of the dam. Trying to get my best dirt all the way to top grade, then I’ll fill in with the less desirable stuff on the lake side, and the rocky stuff on the dry side. I think I’m getting it packed well enough. I think one of the pics I posted yesterday shows it after I packed it
Things have really been shaping up here, and we’re in the final stages of putting this thing together! I’ve had some great help from friends and family the last couple weekends, and we’re putting the finishing touches on this lake. Check out the video for current progress. Can’t believe how much we’ve gotten done out here, can’t believe how well it’s gone, and absolutely can’t believe what a great machine this 963 has been! Of course though, when I have about 2 hours of work left to do with it, I went and busted a hydraulic hose. No big deal I thought - I’ve changed a bunch of hydraulic hoses over the years.. Well, after getting the front plates off in the dark tonight, I’ve realized this may not be just a simple hose replacement. It’s one of the bucket tilt hoses, and it goes down inside / potentially under? the machine. It’s the yellow line circled in the photo below. I gave up and came inside - will work on it again tomorrow. Anyone know where the bottom end is? How hard is it to get to and replace? Thank you all so much here! You’ve all been an incredible help, and a great motivation to help me accomplish this dream! Couldn’t have done it without all of you!
That’s been a very enjoyable thread, Thanks for posting
Just wanted to give everyone an update on this lake build.. Lake is done! Grass planted. Concrete columns poured for the dock. And we’re filling up with water, fast! So-far, seems to be holding everything in! I’m so excited to swim and start stocking it this summer!
Looks great
Looks awesome! Well done. Good job on the erosion control and grassing - looks professionally done.
Damned jealous!!
That looks great!
Thanks all! And big thanks to everyone here who helped out, lent advice, or encouraged me. Couldn’t have done it without your help. Thanks! Just using the tools we had - and I had plenty of straw available! Had to plant that grass twice though.. Few weeks after it came up, the damn army worms came through and ate every single blade of grass.. Seems to be established now though - should green up in spring..
Yeah the army worms were terrible down here as well. Kept the grassing companies busy.
How's your lake doing? Do you have any current photos? Did you ever figure out how much in fuel you spent? I recently got my own 963 and had to put an undercarriage on it. I have a different track adjustment mechanism than the one you were using. It seems as if yours was like the old 953 style. My machine uses 953 teeth for the bucket. I had a track tensioner issue on mine and it turns out when I loosened the grease fitting to compress the tracks, I bent the retaining plate and grease was able to escape from the oring on top. Took a flat steek plate made it flat and it held grease again.
I think I landed around $5k in fuel total, so around 1,300 gallons I think, and that included carrying about 100 bucket loads of old coal shale uphill 100 yards, away from the lake - several hundred gallons in itself. Everyone’s guesses were pretty spot-on - I used around 6 gallons per hour / 60 gallons in a 10 hour day. The machine moved dirt much better than I anticipated though, and even with hauling all that shale up the hill, I think I only put a little over 200 hours in the cab. I was so impressed by that 963! Such a work horse, and really had very few problems with it! Track adjuster was a pain, but had been failing for a long time before I got ahold of it.. I was really disappointed with my grass guy. He was slow to get out there initially, so by the time it was planted it was already late in the year. Then it didn’t rain forever, and when the grass finally came up, the damn army worms ate it all. That wasn’t his fault, but he didn’t come back to reseed for several more weeks. By the time he got back, it was too late, and nothing grew before winter. So over the winter the hillside eroded pretty badly, and all the damn topsoil washed away. I’m still upset about this.. I ended up reseeding it myself this spring, and after a lot of fertilizer I’m finally getting grass to grow. Been a lot of work though. Lesson to learn here is one I already knew - if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. I got concrete pillars poured for the dock through the fall before it filled up - just barely. The water level was chasing me all the way up.. It was completely full and going out the overflow in early February. Overflow is sized well - we had some really hard rains earlier in the year, and it was only halfway up the pipe. I’m not sure yet how well the lake is holding water. There’s a lot of land draining into this area, so it’s been flowing through the overflow all spring. This week though it finally fell below the overflow pipe. I’m concerned about a wet spot at the bottom of the dam, but it was there last year too with no water in the lake. It’s definitely a spring - time will tell if the lake water is adding to it. Worst case though, I lose a foot or so of water during the dry season, and it will fill back up very quickly once we get some rain. We stocked minnows, bluegill, and redear this spring. We’ll put bass and catfish in next spring. There are about a million tadpoles in there right now, and the first set of minnows has spawned, so there are roughly a million nearly-microscopic minnows swimming around too. Good bass food! It’s all coming together! Went swimming a couple weeks ago on a warm day. We’ve been getting the kayaks out on it. And I have lumber for the dock, and will start building it as soon as we get another warm day. I guess I don’t have any recent pictures from up there. I’ll post some from earlier this year, and I’ll try to remember to take some when I get up there tonight and post later. Bottom image is the seeding I did - no credit to the lawn guy I threw money away to.. Rough cost breakdown for the project: Machine Rental: $300 thank you gift card to a good friend. Couldn’t do it without them Fuel: $5k Machine Repairs: $2,600 Drain tile: $1,100 Seeding: $1,500 (worst spent money) Dock: $3,500
Do you need permission from the county to stock fish and is it big enough for all the fish you plan to have? Here you have to meet certain requirements to have fish. I think you have to have a way to aerate the pond as well.
You only need to aerate for trout. Personally, on my land, I could care less what the county, the king or anyone else for that matter, says what the law is. I just go out to old bass ponds and catch some bass and pumpkin seeds and put them in a 5 gallon bucket and if there are enough tadpoles and minnows, life will live.
Bought a house with a 1/4 acre pond with no fish in it. Owner said the fish came out of the mud too early one year and cold weather killed them. I'm like sure buddy. Anyways I stocked with bass and minnows. There were plenty of tadpoles too. One bad winter the pond froze up solid for the whole winter. Usually, we would get some thawing and see some open water. Didn't think much of it until spring when I found all the fish were dead. Maybe you don't need to aerate but, you do need to have some open water in the winter
I have had my pond turn over when it becomes super hot and kill all the fish a few times. It helps if you have a spring, keeps water moving enough for fish to live.
No permits needed to stock common species here. In fact, the only permit I've needed through this whole process is a building permit to move the dirt. Don't even need a permit to build a lake in Indiana if it's under 5 acres in surface area, and under 20' high dam. Indiana is pretty relaxed with regulations as a whole, and my little rural county is about as unregulated as it gets in the States. How have we allowed oursleves to fall so far into government regulation, in the land of the free? It's sad.. The lake is just shy of an acre, so plenty big and plenty deep enough to support a healthy fish population.
These are some pics from today. Just started putting the dock together - going to try to make some more progress on that tomorrow.. I’ll pay damn near as much for that dock, as I did for fuel to dig this damn hole!
Very nice pond there!