Hey everyone. New here looking for advice. I'm doing a inframe on a cat c15 acert mxs 475. I'm doing 16:1 cylinder packs and iva delete. Looking for 600-625 hp. I'm wondering what turbo to use and whether I can put a single turbo on the stock manifold. And recommendations on any other parts I should change. I'm on a pretty strict budget as I bought the truck with a supposed new engine but it's not its trash. I drove it home and it was pushing water when I got there. Any help would be appreciated.
Welcome Mr. EPA man. What office do you work out of? You glow so bright.
Hahaha I bought a w900 from a guy in Pennsylvania it was supposed to be a new motor. Got it home and it's pushing water. Pulled the turbos off yesterday and they have some play in both of them. Pulling the head this morning pretty sure it's trash. Hoping the liners are up. I just need some help on what I need to order as far as turbo and cam
Call Cat with a serial number, they will fix you right up!
Cat will only go to 550 hp and they won't do a single turbo conversion will they?
MXS engine arrangements are listed in the system for Paccar installation up to 625 BHP. All you need is to pick the one you want and build the engine like that. I suspect that to obtain 600-625 using Cat parts will require compound turbocharging but I would be prepared to be proved wrong.
Where do I find the list of arrangements? That sounds better then spending the 10k to switch to a single turbo.
What is the Arrangement Number of the engine you have right now.? It will be on the data plate right below the engine Serial Number. Then it's a case of matching your engine Arrgt with one that produces 600/625 BHP and is closest to what you have right now. This would require the least number of iron changes to get from where you are now to where you want to be.
I'll have to go look but the serial number is mxs86544
Arrgt - 261-5472. Built April 2006. I'll see what I can dig up.
Thank you sir
So all the comments coming from now on are in respect of using genuine OEM Cat parts. I can't comment on aftermarket parts, I'll leave that to others. OK so the first bit of (maybe) bad news. For 600 or 625 BHP requires 17.1:1 pistons. Your current pistons are 18:1 for power ratings of less than 550 BHP. Your particular engine is 475.
Well that's not terrible news as I got the head off this morning and #1 and #2 liners are gaulded. I got a quote from rush peterbuilt for a pai 16:1 kit for $3500 that seems pretty reasonable. I'm leaving the machine shop now from dropping the head off to get a bath and magna Flux and preasure test. He says Tuesday/Wednesday before I'll know something on it
A few more snippets regarding the Core Engine. This does not include turbos, etc. Whether you want 600 or 625 BHP makes no difference to the required hard parts in the Core Engine. Current camshaft 251-7665. Replace with 248-6766. Current Piston & Rod Gp 248-5515 (18:1). Replace with 248-5517 (17.1:1) Current injectors 249-0709. Replace with 249-0702. Current electronics Gp 249-2953 (flash file 264-0068). Replace with 249-2960 (flash file 329-8553) for 600 BHP rating. Replace with 249-2961 (flash file 261-6689) for 625 BHP rating. The same ECM you have now should work provided that it can be re-flashed.
Wow that's Lot of info. Thank you so much. I have 2 more questions. If I go with a single 78 or 80 mm turbo and delete the Ivan's should I go with 16:1 or 17:1 cylinder packs in your opinion? Second question if I do go with a single turbo can I use the existing acert exhaust manifold?
Sorry, but as I mentioned above anything regarding aftermarket or non-standard specification setups is above my pay grade. TBH it's hard enough to figure out how to do what you're asking using standard parts. I'm just giving you the info of what it would need to take your current engine which is a standard factory arrangement and by only using regular OEM parts create a different (but still standard according to the factory) Cat engine arrangement that would produce either 600 or 625 BHP. If the system says it needs compound turbos then all I can say is that's what it needs.
I sure appreciate the info. Thanks a million
What sort of turbo setup does your engine have right now.? The book says compound with the HP turbo having a wastegate on it.
That's what it is. I'm just trying to get better pulling power and better mpg while I have it apart but don't have a ton of money to throw at it
That's what it is. I'm just trying to get better pulling power and better mpg while I have it apart but don't have a ton of money to throw at it
Let me get this straight. You're looking for something in the order of 25% more BHP and at the same time you want to reduce the engine fuel consumption.? I'm sorry but AFAIK that's not how it works. You want more power you cram more fuel and more air into the engine. Basic physics...........
I haul heavy and wide all the time. At 475 foot is in it all the time. Mpg is ****! With a little more hp I won't be in it as much resulting in a little better mpg. I'm not looking for 9 mpg just north of 5 would be nice
In my 350 world 475 is monster power. But my world is pretty small and rather old apparently ....
Man I wish this 475 acert pulled like my 425 b model I'd be a happy camper.
Well it looks like if you want the extra HP it’s going to need bigger turbos for both LP & HP to go with the changed compression ratio, valve timing, squirters, and software mapping. I have my fingers crossed that the existing manifolds/air intake lines will all still work.
Goodness, I may have to just but it back stock. I don't have the budget for all that. I bought this truck owner told me the motor was just inframed with a platinum kit. So I'm already in it 60k and I can't even use it. I bought it because I have a peterbilt with a cummins in it that has cost me 36k in a year and I'm still getting 3.5 mpg and 6 mechanics haven't been able to figure out why. I keep getting ripped off it's really getting to me between dishonest people, fuel prices up and freight rates down I'm out of hair to pull out. Sorry for the rant. I just want a truck that will get 6.5 mpg loaded with a 12' wide crane boom section and a 24k pound counterweight without downshifting 3or 4 gears on a small hillI don't think that should be that hard to obtain.
And that's what costs you the bucks, IMHO of course. The famous tuning shop reply comes to mind. "Speed costs money. How fast you wanna go.?" You've made a number of comments so far about what you were told about the motor having been rebuilt by the previous owner. Throwing it out there but if it was rebuilt the right way to the spec it is right now might that just be the difference between how it perfoms now (inadequately) and how it might perform if rebuilt right..?
I feel like there is some sort of reality check incoming ....
Not to go too in depth, check my post on readying for the kw I rebuilt a BXS block to a 6NZ. Single Turbo but about best HP Cat could do on a processor repair was 500. Requires a 6NZ s/n. Are NO external numbers on these when fully assembled beyond the labels attached to the valve cover. Plug in to my engine is a 6NZ. Basically the processors for BXS MXS and on are for IVA and the Twin Turbo ACERT emissions, no one I could find would do a delete reprogram. Takes making the engine a fundamentally Older series to get anywhere including processor.
You've got a good point there. From what I've seen taking the top end apart today I'm pretty sure he straight up lied to me. The cam bearings look as tho they have a million miles on them and liners in 1,2 and 6 lok about the same. The other yhing is the oil feels strange almost like grease. Kind of wonder if its not gear oil or he put some sort of additive in it. Im sure itll make more sense when i get the bearing caps off in the morning.
Post lots of photos. I'm sure our resident on-highway engine expert @Truck Shop would likely weigh in with his opinions, and other members besides. As mentioned above @DMiller rebuilt a motor similar to yours but IIRC it it was a single-turbo engine when he started, although I would stand corrected on that.
Will add, doing out of frame replaced a bad head, miscellaneous parts just replaced came to just at $18
If you want 6.5+ mpg pull a van trailer. Aerodynamically dirty loads suck fuel.
What do you see for boost? We have what sounds like basically the same engine set at 475 that runs pretty good with about 47 psi.
What size turbo did you use?
I think 30 at most and it takes forever to get there. I hadn't checked for cac leaks yet because I know I had bigger problems.
I've had them throw a code and derate so they're only getting about 30lbs boost and they're definitely a dog like that. I can see why a 425 B model would pull harder. I have a feeling just freshening up what you have will make a big difference. Obviously more power is nicer to have but if you're on a budget, settling for a lower power setting won't be so bad when you compare it to how it runs now. I do heavy haul with a BXS (I think; it's an '05). It was 475 until we had Cat turn flash it to 550. I haven't noticed much difference in mileage but then we have a lot of hills and spend a lot of time crawling around in the woods so it may not be a very good example. YMMV. Er...
On mine the manifold had to be changed as the BXS style or type placed it in wrong location and angle. The purchased kit was manifold studs and nuts, gaskets and a B&W turbo. Did not need or want any of the over technified variable vane inlet types. Purpose of my truck is a personal machine no longer in work clothes. Boost running light will approach 25, code out your processor, likely have sensor actuator or other fault as noted above.
Could there be another part number for the 248-6766 cam? I can't seem to locate that part number
Sorry that is the Camshaft Group, not the camshaft itself. 332-7313 is the camshaft Part Number, or Reman 10R-3325.
Aw ha thank you sir
Wow, I have waited for more info, but I will weigh in, I guess. * From what I can see in that photo it's using oil, has to be. The piston crown is washed, the area at top of liner above top ring travel is damp with oil, it should have a dry carbon crust. IMO. Boost in any engine running a charge air cooler depends on excellent sealing. If for any reason it has a original CAC that would be the first thing I would test. CAC's 10 to 12 years old are stressed from boost pressures plus vibration/flex. I don't normally see a CAC over 10 years old that doesn't bubble with soapy water. The company I use to work for had a fleet of C15 475 hp Cats constantly moving 100,000 gvw, the best any of those got was 4.9 to 5 mpg. But ran well for the job those were spec'd for. IMO-Your not going see 6.5, I seriously doubt that will happen without a ton of drivetrain changes. As Nige posted it takes a bunch of fuel and air to make 600 hp. With the consequence-will the rest of drive train hold up under 2050 ft lbs torque. For every action there is a direct and opposite reaction. The stories of high mileage mostly are not true-even the mileage readout in the dash is not accurate, it's miles run divided by gallons and it never matches what's posted on the dash. To me, the liner in that photo has way more miles than one thinks, seeing some crosshatch means-not much. IMO.
I agree with most of what you said. After disassembly the liners, main and cam bearings show a million plus mile motor. As far as mpg goes I normally run between 55 and 60 when loaded so 6-6.5 should be attainable at those speeds as far as drive train goes I have a heavy spec 18 speed and clutch I bought to upgrade another truck that I am now selling so it will be going in this truck before it leaves the shop. It's also getting a new cac while the radiator is out and possibly radiator
I'll be posting more pics soon
Good point. The first time that all the fruit hanging off the back of the engine has been mentioned. If the drive train won't stand up to the additional power/torque all you will achieve is just a way of emptying your wallet faster........... My 2c, YMMV.
Did they also go from 70 pin to 120 pin ecm between 6NZ and ACCERTs, or was that when the SDP came out?
At what rpm and final ratio?
ECMs are identical externally, they do NOT interchange and the ACERT ECM cannot pe modified to a previous series emissions wise. Are TWO Head harness on ACERT, ONE on any prior as 6NZ and NO cannot repin to make work accurately.
Is the transmission a RTLO20918B?
As to ECMs iF cannot find a 6NZ or other appropriate module some units from other engines can be reprogrammed. HAS to go thru CAT, HAVE to have a good s/n and remaining cal codes for that engine. CAT can reprogram where the proprietary materials are not available to general processor repair shops. Becomes a Frankenmotor when done where ‘Most’ CAT shops will not ever throw a wrench on ever again.
A local found that out the hard way.
My own Frankenmotor is OK by the Local CAT Shop, Plug into Processor, reads 6NZ7xxxx, is the ONLY way they check, and as been told once a Engine has had any external labels self destruct and fall away they have ZERO other options to determine what it is. Shop Foreman and main manager noted that 95% of the C15 NON ACERT rebuilds they have are generally using later blocks as the blocks do not care, neither do the heads. They also realize the disappearing Used Parts as the intermediate cam/valve covers can be replaced with a ACERT series and have the IVA system section plugged as well abandoned, even they had done this on a Off Road CAT Dump truck. These series engines are coming to twenty years of age in many cases.
Ex Cat/farmer friend has no less than eleven non emission 5EK up engines hid in storage on the farm. Plus 6 B Models. When he stumbles on one he buys it.
I wish I had money to do that with Cummins n m and l engines. I'd buy everyone I could broken or running.
We all have or had our collections of antiques.
Was researching what yourself and others noted on the 06B thru the early C15 engines into the Acert series. The four bolt heavier rods, wider rod crank journals are preferred for rebuilding these. Some of the earlier series had crank cracking and failing issues where my own being align bored had to have lost one even as a better BXS series. Even I can remember the cam bearing and lobe failures on the older cummins, block deck erosion, upper bore cracking, lower bore erosion issues. Did not keep up when moved to N14s or into the current class engines. Last DD I worked was a 92 series, none of the 60 or 50 series. EDIT: Has been brought up before, those engine series out of production for greater than 10 years parts are becoming Unobtanium except for some aftermarket providers, many of whom are not what could be considered quality or top line anymore. NT Series Cummins and DD series 92 71 or 53 series are ONLY serviced aftermarket or if get lucky enough to find some antiquated NOS parts been laying around a while. Buddy of mine had tried several sources where finally found a used Cam gear and correct p/n offset cam key for a 1980 NTC 400. Do not have the CPL but he noted was a oddball and had to go used on Both parts to get what needed. The cam gear was out of a similar 400 and still on the Bad Cam from that engine, had to buy assembly to get his pieces. His engine is 43 years OLD.
NTC can still be found aftermarket easy enough. Yes antiquated, technically anything 2004 and down is antiquated. With emissions removed from any late engine it's still just a early tier engine. As far as Dwight buying old Cat engines-that's his stock pile of cores for custom built engines. He makes some pretty good money doing that covering some of his off time farming. But it's not far into the future the old cores will be used up nation wide.
I have done a couple conversions from twin turbo to single. We use either the 6nz or the MBN prefix. You will have to change the Center section of the manifold and then get the 550 hp turbo for it. I usually buy aftermarket for that. We tune them to 600 hp. I’m not sure why anyone is taking their truck to a cat dealer for tuning when it is easily done with aftermarket software. I would also recommend cutting and shimming the block to at least .002 above spec. As far as fuel mileage a 600 hp truck will do better than a 475 if you keep your foot out of it. The reason is that the 475 is usually in a dead lug where there 600 gets up to speed and backs off. I tuned one 6nz truck from 550 to 600 hp and the owner was amazed at the difference. A single turbo with the waste gate bypassed will do 38 to 40 psi boost.
True-but people can't help themselves.
Not run it into the ground-we had a fleet of T800's 2002 models all were spec'd with 500 hp Cats, except two and no one knew those two were 550hp. I checked the data plates on a few of them, then I checked the data plates on all of them and found the two. I told Gayle, both of us kept our mouths shut, it didn't take long. The other drivers started complaining to the then owner they were getting passed climbing Cabbage grade by those two tractors. So you can guess what happened, both were pulled into Kenworth and de-rated to 500. Instead of only using the power when needed, nope going to push it and show the other company trucks.
Haha ^ There is a decent chance aftermarket will step up and make parts for old engines as there will be a demand, and it the demand is only going up.
111
I was thinking more owner operator truck as the op probably is.
Can still find some stuff for nearly any engine after 1970, HOWEVER, those parts are not what I would care to bet the farm on. Have had good results in the past from Reliance, recently IPD and a few odd other providers but again, time is the tell all as to grade, quality and functionality. A 1980s NTC that has had a number of builds, had all the bores sleeved and anything that ailed it repaired, is good for One Last Shot then becomes a scrapper's prize as too far gone by then to rebuild yet again.
Interstate McBee uses F/P Diesel-Federal Mogul, I have no issues or quandaries with F/P. Too bad I could have supplied him with a complete late BCI engine, plus have several blocks. I have a completely machined BCIII block cut for lower press fit liners, line bored and decked with cam bearings I would have sold, plus three other blocks. Below is a CPL list for cylinder kits. https://dai.com.au/docs/855-CPL-matrix.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2BsQoS2ZL2E0QY6WO6AjpjCyHp_ncWb6YfV_E10DTG2nWyTJkJKP8jEvw
I was working a bridge job in 2000 and the boom truck needed a lot of work at inspection, so they got a rental. The delivery driver had brought it in from the crane install in Texas directly to our job. I took it to town to get some rebar, and was a bit surprised. Dang thing has some power! I get back and crack the hood to find a 550 in there. What a waste. Fixed load, no pintle, it will never tow, and a 550 to operate a crane that uses about 150 HP maximum.
We're getting off topic, but oh well. I went from a 280hp 24ft tray single drive rigid, to a 400hp 28ft tray bogie drive rigid. Do I need the extra power? Not without a dog trailer, but it sure is nice to drive. I do plan on getting a dog trailer at some stage, but the majority of my work will be with no trailer. Fuel economy is about the same between the two trucks on average.
Reminds me of the truck new enterprise had for the drive way paving crews a s model single screws with 495? N14s and 8lls with a 12 foot dump bed guy I know has one says you can fill the bed and take the hoe along up and down rt 22 as fast as you'd like to go. They where speced the same as there triaxle dumps engine trans and ratio wise at the time said to be the most over built single axle dump trucks ever.