How are you removing nut to remove sprocket hub ? Someone previously used pipe wrench, prefer to not go that route.Serial:5Kg01070 Thanks Bernard.
You could always get the correct size socket and use conventional hand tools or impact guns.
The nut is the easy bit to undo, the hard bit is pressing off the rim, followed by pressing it back on. tctractors
I bought a hammer wrench off of eBay. I guess no one else was looking for a 3 3/8” wrench, I gave $12 plus I think about $16 shipping.
Thanks for the replies have found couple 3-3/8 sockets well over 100 ea not interested In those ,will keep looking TC I found cat dealer that has tooling to remove and install.
I’m not certain a d3c is 3 3/8”. You’ll need to verify that. 3 3/8" HAMMER WRENCH / SLUGGER WRENCH | eBay Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 3 3/8" HAMMER WRENCH / SLUGGER WRENCH at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products! www.ebay.com
Reads like a prior owner/repairman wasn't interested in purchasing the correct tools for the job either, and resorted to something that would work? Myself, $100.00 for a proper tool is a worthwhile investment; especially if the machine is mine. No offense meant but those are my thoughts.
I checked with dial caliper before looking.
I will keep looking for better buy,may be the only time I will use it.
You wont hurt it using a pipe wrench
Then get the dealer to bring his spanner, he will have it to do the nut up after pressing on the rim, so you would be bothering about nothing. tctractors
The sprocket hub the nut was barely tight and I pulled sprocket loose by hand,luckily the splines look new. My next question manual says to remove inside nut before removing housing,is that to make it easier to remove it later if needed? Thanks. Bernard
Well the fact the nut was loose and the rim fell off in your hand it's not the best thing, anyhow the inner nut will need to be undone and this needs another type of fancy spanner thing, as you are having a good bit of luck with this job it might also be loose??? tctractors best of luck.
It also has a huge hex nut instead of spanner. No room to get anything on it,that was why I see no reason to remove it just to remove housing although manual says to.
While luck may seem on your side with this job; I get the impression you are taking things apart because of a prior repair not done correctly. Don't know if I've ever seen a sprocket rim pull from tapered splines by hand. Most tractors take many tons of force to reinstall the rim for even the smallest tractors. Large ones are in excess of 75 tons of force. Usually takes quite a bit more to pull them free than to reinstall too using the proper tooling. I do wish you luck with this endeavor but think you need to rethink your approach to keep from having problems again.
I am pulling final because of couple pieces of gear teeth,amazes me how people just throw things together.I know how the hub was supposed to pressed on,if it is something I can't repair I have no problem taking it to someone who can.
Thanks for the update. If you adhere to the repair manual for tolerances and specifications there should be no problems with it going back together and yielding a good long service life. I've had them apart in the past where things were put together loose by other parties and it's painful and expensive to re repair something because it was done cheap the first time. If you have broken gear teeth ensure you flush that cavity very welll with both solvent and hot water to remove any grit that will ineveitably find it's way into roller, or sleeve bearings destroying or shortening the life of your good work.
Have to buy a bull gear part 5G5847 , any recommendations on suppliers and quality prefer to stay away from China. Thanks for any responses.
Could look on Machinery Trader and might find a good used one off a wrecked machine.
Have you checked with Cat for the bull gear? Sometimes the quality is worth the price, in my opinion bull gears fall well inside that spec, it's not a place to cut corners.....and you will pay SOMETHING for even the poorest quality gearing unless you are a VERY lucky person and find one free looking for a good home. JMHO.
Don't buy a Cat Classic. You are far better off with a new or good used.
Haven't been able to buy classic parts for 3 or 4 years and why would Cat have sold them with the same warranty as their regular parts if they were so bad? Bad Bob
My set of classic pre cups snapped off before I reached my 150 lb torque. Even my Cat guys told me classic parts in a critical area is a bad idea. They aren't made like they used to be.....warranty or not. JMHO
Also pics of tear down. Cat 2200.00 and oversea supplier.
Here are some pics everything looks new except the stripped gear.not 1 mark on pinion Someone had been in it recently bearings appear new also.The bull gear has about inch clearance from case at bottom there are gouges where something caught every tooth has damage.I almost believe they accidentally left behind a tool that caused it all.
Cat price is 2200.00 may have found a nos cat gear for 650.00 including shipping.
Cat is a global company, chances are the tractor probably came from overseas or at least many, many of the components did so that wouldn't turn me off, however, the price difference is ridiculous, I wouldn't hesitate to take the lower priced gear...I only asked because a lot of times you can get Cat parts at comparable prices. I always check there first, I don't always buy there.
Where is the tool now?
Whatever it was was ground up by bullgear
If you notice on shaft has a large hex nut about 5 in diameter that was in use,parts diagram shows lock nut that takes index socket.Your thoughts if hex nut be replaced to lock nut, the locknut around $100.00
Was the bull gear an original Cat part? or an aftermarket someone had replaced the original with?
Good idea to shy away from the Chinese bull gear products. Go for the Italian Ghinassi brand, they are every bit as good as Cat, but much cheaper. High precision spare parts for industrial earthmoving machines | CGR Ghinassi CGR Ghinassi parts are perfectly interchangeable with the genuine equivalents and provide the highest guarantees of strength and durability www.ghinassi.com The following brands are Chinese. A lot of sellers refuse to reveal where they source their parts/components. Blumaq Costex (CTP) Reliance Virtually all of the Florida-based aftermarket parts sellers
Not sure I would be comfortable with that assumption . . .
With everything else looking new ,and with damage I see I am comfortable with that
Can't really say at this time until I get it broken down.
If you mean #19 the 6S-4531 lock nut is still current. Illustration at bottom is what it looks like. If there is a different profile of nut in that location it's probably because someone didn't want to spend the $100. Not good. Thinking out loud. What are the chances that the pinion tore up, also damaging the bull gear. Someone disassembled the final drive, found all the damage, and figured that they could get away with just replacing the pinion to have the tractor move well enough in order to sell it so that it would be someone else's problem..?
Nige I thought of that also but looking at fasteners and seals it showed quite a lot of usage since being apart. I will put everything back as manual shows.
It is funny at times how they go in circles to keep from giving the country of origin.
The part that grates, is when you purchase a genuine Cat part, and it has "Made in China" on it! Now, I don't mind paying Chinese prices for Chinese-made parts - but I object to paying Cat prices for Chinese-made parts!
The 650 gear didn't work out,got lucky found new one appears to be old stock 430 including shipping received today only minor surface rust.
I am thinking of using awesome or purple power and hot water and use diesel as final flush, any other thoughts that would be better?
I'm sure that would be fine but I like to use mineral spirits as it dries without residue. Purple power in a high concentration works well but not quite as fast. Hard to not rely upon a hot pressure washing to ensure anything is flushed, or blasted clean. Given that everything is hot it dries quickly and doesn't really flash rust. Feel and rotate all your bearings to ensure there is no "notching", grit, or erratic feel to them before going back together. It looks to me that the tractor stripped off a pinion gear and as it was coming apart pieces rode around in the final housing leaving the damage you see in the bull gear and housing. A prior repair possibly replaced just the pinion gear and maybe a couple of catastrophic failure bearings, put it back together and sold the machine as it would now pull itself again. Unscrupulous sellers aplenty at auctions. All these parts work and wear together and I'm thinking if you don't replace everything in there, your good work will be short lived. As pitted and chaffed as that bull gear is, it's mating pinion is going to wear to match till failure. I really think the complete repair is less expensive to do now rather than later. I know that is an unsolicited opinion but these things get expensive quick to repair and really aren't worth a lot if not operational. It's apart now and should be repaired correctly while in this condition IMO.
Removed bull gear today, don't know when it was replaced pretty rusty no manufacturer markings.Still don't know why it was so beat up it had lot of usage since anyone had it apart.Bearing on shaft is smooth feel no problem with it but you can grasp each side and get up and down movement, replace or not?I did look at some why are the races separate from bearing instead of coming as a set. Attaching pics if I can get them to load, appreciate any feedback. Bernard
If it were me, anything that shared that oil supply would be replaced. Something came apart and was not repaired correctly but rather "made" to run and apparently it did till destruction. I'll bet every part in that final has abnormal wear and really shouldn't be trusted. I know it's expensive but doing it again because something wasn't done that should have been is a "double whammy". If I hadn't seen similar over the years with my own two scopes, I'd be surprised; but I have seen very similar done in the past even quit a job over such practices.
On that size of taper-roller bearing (on a Cat machine anyway) there are generally always two Part Numbers. One number is for the cone, the inner race/rollers/cage, and the other for the cup, the outer race. Theoretically it gives the possibility of replacing just one part but I can't say it's common to do it that way. All you have to do is order both Part Numbers to make one complete bearing. Even bearing manufacturers' catalogues show two numbers but that is so that OEM's can select combinations of cup & cone to suit different inner and outer diameters. See this snip from the Timken catalogue how the same cup can be used with different cones. Agree completely. I have no idea what the bottom line might be and if it's within your budget but I think you should either bite the bullet and do it right one time or wait until you can because doing it half-assed is quite likely to come back and bite you in the derriere.
Best to replace all the bearings when you have it apart. I talked to a mechanic who quit a job at a independent repair shop who specialized in JD and also sold used parts. He couldn't in good conscience stand behind the work they told him to send out the door. They had a good enough type attitude and if they didn't have new parts in stock like bearings would reuse the old ones just to get things out the door. The machine had a catastrophic failure so needed to be rebuilt but they reused bearings or used used parts that were not up to spec. The shop owner figured it's all enclosed so the customer will never know. If it fails again must be something the operator did. The mechanic was a very good but couldn't go along with the extremely shady practices and shop policy of just slapping stuff back together as fast as possible. It was an ongoing thing and not isolated to a couple repairs. Kind of shocking to hear how this shop operated. It has since closed.
This Bull Gear looks like something (Try Fancy Nut Here) has come undone loosing the pre-load on the bearings supporting the hub resulting in a good amount of damage, the changed odd nut fastener must have been a will do effort.
It is kind of odd. I have heard a D3 doesn't really have enough power to tear itself apart but I guess anything can be abused or poorly maintained.
A lawn mower can tear itself apart . . .
Nasty business when you get loose nuts......... TBH who knows how many times it has been apart previously.? Probably quite a few.
The damage looks suspiciously like sabotage to me. It looks like someone threw a handful of nuts and bolts into the FD case. I've never seen any bull gear so badly damaged, and I've repaired multiple dozens of FD's.
Yes and everything else looks new and still operated without noise.
I see smaller dozers broken routinely everyone can't afford new D 10 s
Got correct lock nut for it only 100 .00 Now if I can find a spanner wrench for it cat wants 512.00 .
Some kind of vandalism could certainly cause that kind of damage. If it ran out of oil you think it would make some noise. Maybe lots of 3rd gear operation on rough ground or slamming the trans. lever between forward and reverse at full throttle?
Usually from abuse and poor maintenance. If an operator tried to do the work of a D6 with D3 is asking for trouble. You have to let the machine do the work at the pace it was designed for. I read on here a while ago that Cat purposely derated/overbuilt their machines so they would last longer compared to AC machines and maybe IH too.
Correct most everything has its benefits on certain jobs .
I've fabricated large wrenches for sprocket nuts out of thick Cat cutting edges before. Gas axe a single-hex ring wrench shape out of a large chunk of DH-2 cutting edge steel, with a tapered handle (like a slogging wrench) - slide a chunk of heavy wall pipe over the end of the handle - and "bobs your uncle", you've got a non-genuine Cat sprocket tool! The DH-2 cutting edge steel is boron steel, it's as good as tool steel. You don't need new cutting edge, old cutting edge that isn't worn badly in thickness, works just fine. Poor boys do what poor boys gotta do to keep the tractor running at low cost, and not contribute to Cat executive perks! Remember, this is a company that made 26.5% profit on sales, last quarter! I'd like that kind of return on my money!
You said that right my lock nut is spanner.
If bull shirt was music we would have a brass band here. Bad Bob
I've made a lot of "tooling" over the years to fit a purpose. Can't afford to purchase something very expensive to use only once although a different story if can be utilized elsewhere. I've made something several times only to cut it apart to use on another job, or task; then have to make the damned thing again.....
Can something like a dull or flat end chisel/punch be used to tighten the nut? A tool could be made but would require more precision than a hex wrench. Could cut a steel plate to just fit over it with 4 indents a little over size and carefully grind the indents to fit the notches. Key stock to fit the notches welded to a thick outer ring could also work.
For that notched nut that dragracer pictured, you do need an adjustable C-hook wrench - which can often be hired or borrowed. Dragracer, I'd lend you my Proto C-hook adjustable wrench if you were closer! FACOM 119.3/4 - Heavy-duty hook and pin wrenches | Mister Worker™ Buy online at the best price: FACOM 119.3/8 Heavy-duty hook and pin wrenches. Discover Pin and hook wrenches by FACOM for sale on Mister Worker™. Fast delivery and Custom Quotes. www.misterworker.com When I spoke of gas-axing a wrench for sprocket nuts, I was talking about the regular shape hex nuts as found on the bigger tractors.
Maybe you could rent a hook tool. Looks pretty pricey for a 1 time use deal. Curious what the torque setting for the nut is? If it wasn't super high not sure why a blunt chisel or punch wouldn't work. Motorcycle shocks are smaller but use similar style nuts. Everybody uses a punch to adjust them. There are 2 as the 2nd one acts like a lock nut. They can be pretty tight sometimes.
Needs 600 ft pounds torque.
So the holdup to putting this dozer back together is a spanner wrench? I'd bite the bullet and buy the Cat wrench, or an equivalent if one is to be had, put the tractor together, go to work with the machine and advertise the spanner for rent........but I wouldn't loose track of it it, you may be needing it yourself again to go back into the final. Every time you use it ,it will become cheaper to own. JMHO.
OTC 7307 is the original C-hook wrench, this company in St Peters, MO, seems to be the cheapest on pricing for the genuine article. 7307 OTC Hook Spanner Wrench Hook Spanner Wrench www.centurytool.net There are Taiwanese copies of the OTC C-hook wrench, their brands are Maxclaw and Licota. The quality of the Taiwanese knock-offs is pretty good.
Chisel, punch and hammer? No. For many reasons, no. That is a bad idea almost anytime, but especially where torque settings matter.
Guess I need to update dozer is for use on farm only so no rush to put it together. I try to cover any problems I have for ideas and maybe help others also.I truly appreciate everyone taking time to offer feedback please comment anytime.If I put it together best that I can maybe my son that inherits it will be ok.
Understood, I was just offering my opinion...and yes I know what they say about opinions. If you're happy I'm happy for you.
That's why I asked what torque the nut needs and also said if it's not super high. There are some types of similar style fasteners that say to use a punch.
Bull gear has cat stamp , did they use parts in Korea it is difficult to read looks like Korea looks like inferior metal comparing to my new one.
What makes you think it was made in Korea.? Photo.?
I would send photo I done everything to make stamp clear but using magnifying glass that what I make it to be.
A lot of specialized tools can be made depending on the job and the cost of the oem tools etc. but how much is your time worth? Just sayin. Personally, if i’m not in a hurry i like the challenge of making special tools and the machining
I don't know why you quoted my comment but I will say this, Cat builds equipment around the globe, I doubt they all use parts from Davenport Iowa. There are some fine equipment manufacturers in Korea, Hyundai is one but there are others, There will be parts manufactured there as well.
D Don't know what you mean about quoting your comment,I was only asking question because I didn't know if they did.
Caterpillar bought a Korean factory and company in 2009, that had been a supplier to Caterpillar in Asia. Caterpillar Buys a Manufacturer in South Korea (Published 2009) A unit that makes components for heavy machinery will expand Caterpillar’s operations in another Asian country. www.nytimes.com There are numerous Korean companies manufacturing aftermarket parts for both Cat and other brands. Here's just a couple of them. Jeil Hydraulics - https://jeilhyd.co.kr/ KBJ undercarriage - https://hoeleong.com/brands/kbj/ Drag racer, I don't understand what the problem is when you said the quality of the replacement gear is not as good as the original ("inferior metal"). Is the machining on the teeth poorer quality, or is it the forging quality of the unmachined areas is rough? It could be a Chinese-made gear sold by a Korean parts supplier/exporter.
Post #76...on page 4. You quoted a comment I made, and then asked the question, I didn't understand why you quoted that particular comment, not that is matters it just confused me. But then again, I'm living in a state of mass confusion.
I didn't go back and look at that post but what it should say the replacement seems to be better quality especially the smoothness of the forging.
O.K., I misunderstood what you said earlier. I thought you said the replacement was inferior - after reading your post again, I see you said the old gear was inferior to the replacement.
It’s difficult to stay away from China. They can make good stuff,but don’t seem to bother.They are governed by market prices,and we all want cheap apparently
Attached photos of spanner socket with help of friends this should torque spanner nut to 600 ft lbs.
Anyone know why previous person that was In this final drive would ever use gasket maker on this bearing retainer?see pic manual doesn't show any. I got all new bearings and cups also, did not want to take any chances even though bearings looked good.
Might of thought it was best to stop oil from leaking there. It shouldn't hurt anything unless there's small orifices the oil has to go through and it plugs them.
Installing duo cone seals using tips I learned here,thanks everyone.On the sprocket hub can't see backside but felt it pop in one spot is 1 mm higher than rest can't get it to change. Hope they don't leak since it may cost 1 grand to get sprocket pressed on.
Pics I forgot to load.
I'm a little late to this thread, but I think you are my brother from another mother..... Awesome deal on a part that was going to be $1000 from Cat.!!!!
IIRC the height tolerance over the full 360 degrees is within 1mm between the highest and lowest points. Also remember that when the sprocket is installed the two halves of the seal will be slightly compressed so, fingers crossed, it ought to sort itself out.
The retaining ridge that holds the ring in is possibly worn, you can beat an edge into the hub with a ball end hammer if you need to, the seal is installed dry only and no hanging out in a spot will do, the press up chap should see to this detail and have it sorted in a short time, that seal needs to be installed level and tidy else it is not worth pressing up.
The photo looks like sealing ring is protruding it isn't I used brake clean which the ingredient is same as manual say to use before installing. It is clean as possible, the assembled height is 8.89 8.62 8.48 8.62 mm Close as I can get it Thanks for the input everyone.
Forget all that measuring crap, if the Toric ring is not placed to look even or equal all around its form, the chances are that seal will fail, how can I say this is just having fitted many 100's of the things and never having any oil leaks, I never measure any seals I fit they just have to look even and uniform.
I'm with tctractors on this. I've also installed hundreds of the Cat metal face/floating seals and never had one leak either. Despite the intensive instructions, the only important points are; 1. Get the seal ring area perfectly clean, and free of nicks and burrs and other damage. 2. Install the toric ring carefully with blunt screwdrivers, ensuring it's not twisted or uneven. 3. Take extra care to ensure the metal seal surfaces are 100% clean, and stay 100% clean and undamaged. This type of seal is designed to accommodate modest levels of mating component movement. Provided the rubber toric ring stays soft and pliable, they work just fine for many years. What makes them leak, is running a component out of oil - damage to the seal faces from the ingress of dirt, debris, wire and rocks - and if the component holding the seals runs at high temperature for an extended period, the rubber in the toric ring hardens, and it then loses its ability to accommodate component movement.
I agree not having experience with duo cone seals I follow my manual as of now they look great.The old ones had flakes of rust on them and were still not leaking
Well I have been a month trying to get cat to press my sprocket hub on, two different locations said they would do it.I am trying to find another method that I can do myself,any ideas appreciated. I am tired of promises and waiting for Cat to show up and phone calls not returned.
You need a 40 to 50 ton hydraulic press cylinder at minimum - plus a friend or associate with a lathe who can machine up the necessary adaptors for you. You need a threaded adaptor to fit the end of the sprocket shaft, so you can attach the press cylinder to it. A two-way press cylinder is ideal, but you could adapt a single-direction cylinder that has a hollow centre. That would mean more work as regards adaptors. Normally, an adaptor screws to the end of the sprocket shaft and the head of the shaft on the press cylinder is pinned to that adaptor. A U-shaped or circular adaptor (a length of heavy pipe would be sufficient) is placed between press cylinder and sprocket, and the press cylinder is then operated in reverse to pull the press cylinder shaft in, so pressure is brought to bear on the sprocket by the press cylinder body, thus applying the necessary 35 tons of pressure to the sprocket, so it fits tightly on the taper.
I would press it up for you in a moment if you were handy to me chap.
Talk to some people in the grading business they probably know of a independent field mechanic that could do it I would do it if you were closer
At least you're not in a hurry.
It's beginning to be crunch time.
Have 3 cat dealers in a 30 mile radius that have tooling done everything but beg,can't understand them.
Too small a job for a dealer. Can you hire or borrow any Cat pressing equipment locally? Maybe some Cat collector has a Cat press? I recently had my nephews son call me up, looking to do a final drive repair on a "really old, vintage Cat". Turned out, it was a late 1960's D7E (!) I called on a few friends in the "collector" range, and eventually got put onto a guy down South with a D7E who owned a Cat press - and he regularly hired it out. So I told the nephews son about this press availability - but in the meantime, he'd found one to borrow that was closer!
I'm sure they'd rather be pressing on the parts they sold, it's not the way I'd look at it but if they can stay busy doing it maybe they see it that way?
Closing this thread thanks everyone for your help.I rebuilt the final with everything new for 1000.00, not having to rush and getting lucky on finding nos cat bearings and races helped. Been working awhile now no leaks duo cone seals had me worried.
How did you get the sprockets pressed on? Seeing the new grouser height on a D3 gives a really good perspective on what constitutes worn pads, especially on larger size dozers.