Hi, I recently purchased an 89 cat d4h and am new to heavy equipment besides farm tractors. The guy that I bought it from said that the transmission had been rebuild about 3 yrs ago/less than 100hrs ago. S/N 8PB03682. He wasn't a believer in maintenance and it sat for about a year, so i changed oil and all filters on the machine and pb blasted all linkages. I had worked it 1 day, and the next day I was cutting in a driveway when i heard a pop, not real loud, just sounded like it popped out of gear or something, but after that, i will not move in any gear, forward or reverse. A guy from the cat dealer brought pressure gauges and said that all was normal, except the lube pressure which he said was 0. The engine doesn't run at full high idle now in any gear or neutral, it is lugged down just a bit. The driveshaft isn't moving in any gear or neutral and the trans temp climbs rapidly to overheat temps within a minute of running from a cold start. I was messing with it the other day and when it was in neutral and i pulled both track brake handles, the driveshaft took off, the high idle went to normal, and the trans temp dropped like a stone. When i would release the brake handles (or handle, it only worked when both were pulled), the dozer would jump a couple inches and stop the driveshaft. With both brake handles pulled, and I put in gear, the driveshaft stops. I am hoping that this is an easier fix as it was running and working fine previously, and the cat man says that it's either the TC or Trans...
hi, sounds like a final drive has locked up. Remove the covers on the final drives and remove the axles and then try it again Mark
This is what I don't like, especially the underlined part. With the engine running and the transmission in neutral, shouldn't the driveshaft be turning, regardless of any problem further downstream - in the bevel gear, final drives, brakes etc...? From what I know, under those conditions normally clutch no. 3 remains engaged and the driveshaft / input shaft of the transmission should turn at TC output speed. But then again, it's weird that the engine load decreases (rpm rises) when brake handles are pulled. I guess this requires some further head-scratching... EDIT: does the transmission control lever appear to be working OK? Can you "feel" the detents between its positions? Also, out of curiosity, can you remember what gear you were in / what were you doing when it suddenly happened?
Yes, it seems to be working correctly, and i was in 1st under load. Josh
Try to do what Mark250 said - remove the drive axles and test again. If it performs exactly the same... IMHO, I'm afraid it looks/sounds like a mechanical failure somewhere inside the transmission
This statement to me is the giveaway Mark
Thanks for the responses! I'm not sure when I will be able to get to it, got a hectic couple weeks ahead. But I did have one more question about it. I was talking to a friend who has been an operator for about 10 years and he said that some have an emergency safety braking system that will lock up the brakes if fluid gets low. Could it do that with low fluid in TC or final drives because of possible bad/old seals that have recently been recommissioned???
Personally, I never heard of any system designed to do that on any Cat dozer. Now in theory , if the transmission oil level gets low enough , at some point I guess the brakes should start dragging and then lock up, from sheer lack of pressure. But since oil for the brakes comes from the main power train system, if it should get to that point (running with the oil level THAT low), I'm afraid other nasty things / symptoms / sounds should happen as well, that you would have noticed...
Pulled the axles several months back, still locked up. Waited on a service guy for 4 months, then found another that would actually come look at it. He had the trans out in about 30min and one of the clutch packs was seized up. Waiting on parts now. Sorry it has been so long for an update, but i have just been playing the waiting game. I'll let you know the outcome.
thanks for the update......so many threads just disappear without resolve
I missed this earlier, The D4H had a park brake issue that I found several times that could cause a transmission issue. follow the park brake linkage down to the park brake valve spool below the shifter, it will pack up with dirt and keep the brakes from fully releasing. A long blowgun will blast it out and things work fine til it happens again. May have been what got your transmission clutch.
well, its been quite a while, but the trans looked like a bomb went off inside it... mechanic said that it looked like whoever rebuilt it, missed a thrust washer or something... had it rebuilt$$$ working on getting my driveway in now and on with my life...haha
Did you check the Park Brake Valve operating linkage as suggested by RZ in post #11 above.? If so, what (if anything) did you find.? Even if you found nothing, by the sounds of it you would be well advised to keep an eye on that area in the future.
I hate to jump in a thread but I'm new to this forum and can't find an answer. I'm working on a D4H series 2 and the park brakes won't release. It will drive thru them but dragging very badly. The dozer is miles out in the back country and I'd like to release the brakes to get it to a lowbed. On my 5B there's a bolt for each side under the seat but this is a whole different animal. TIA. John
You have to pressurize the brakes to get them to release. It's included in the Towing information. I realize that you're not actually going to be towing this particular machine but the same system will work for you.
Thanks for the research and the reply. What I was hoping for was a mechanical release of the park brake so the machine could be driven a considerable distance to where it can be loaded on a lowbed and brought into the shop. BTW, I was able to figure out how to start a new thread on the brake release.
Not sure how a system that works on hydraulics could be released mechanically but hey ho, unless you want to pull the axle shafts. As HMC pointed out that’s a mechanical way of getting the brakes released. The only problem with that method is that the tractor won’t drive once you’ve pulled the shafts.
Like RZ said check that parking brake linkage under the handle where it goes thru the floor 4s werent the only ones that had that friggin problem , dirt gets under the bell crank and when you move the handle your just flexing the linkage behind the panel
Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately I've been through all the easy fixes. I have someone coming to run all the pressures. I've been twisting bolts over 60 years but the mixture of mechanical to hydraulic controls isn't something I can diagnose without the right knowledge.
This has been bugging me to no end. The last thing I can think of is how much linear travel should there be to fully actuate the bell crank? The linkages are free and unobstructed. What I'm puzzled about is are they moving far enough? How far is the bell crank itself at the transmission supposed to move?
Without a Serial Number it's hard to be specific, attached is the adjustment procedure for a wide variety of D4H II & III machines. If your S/N is not included post back and I'll see if there is a separate procedure for it. I assume that you may have already checked but can you see any slop in the linkages anywhere..?
I wish that worn linkages was it but their all surprisingly tight. The pdf is the correct one. I'd like to find out what the measurements for movement are if there's any listed.
There are no measurements listed for how far the bell crank is supposed to move. It's all done with the linkage adjustments. That's why it's so important not to have any free play in the ball joints. I'd suggest the next move ought to be to make the tests as listed on Steps 6-12 of the parking brake adjustment procedure (don't touch the linkages to start with) and see what results you get. Pay particular note to Steps 10 & 11 that can indicate the possibility that the parking brake valve is leaking internally.
OK. Without knowing what the pressures really are, it's a shot in the dark. The linkages are tight. Maybe too tight. The forward/reverse arm was broken when the owner forced the shift lever to get the machine to move. The bell crank was free but the linkage ball joint was frozen with mouse or rat ****. It's possible that the linkage for the park brake is bent. I have loosened and lubricated all the joints. I did not pay attention to what was or wasn't frozen before hand. He had stated that when he moved it from the fire zone to where it's parked that it was very sluggish. I'm guessing the brakes never released.
In that case maybe it might be logical to do the complete adjustment procedure for the park brake linkage even before you consider putting a pressure gauge on it. If something in the park brake linkage is bent then the measurements might well be off compared to the specification.
I'll wait until I can get the pressures run and back into the linkages if necessary. I'm getting tired of hanging upside down on this machine.
If you dont have a gauge try taking the linkage off the valve and move it by hand. See if it lets it travel.
Yup, moves no problem. It seems though that the distance has a direct relationship to the pressures.
Just to be sure valve arm moves or the tractor moves
Valve arm moves and tractor will drive through the brakes in 1st gear. Steering clutches respond as they should. With machine up off the ground, either track will hard stop instantly if one or both frictions are pulled.
Time to start taking pressure reading like Nige has posted for you . On a side note Nige referring to steps 10 and 11 have you ever seen the orings between the steering housing and the frame blow to the inside and dump the pressure but not show a sign of a leak externally.
I wouldn't be 100% sure about that. The lever moves a poppet valve and so long as that valve seat the brakes should release. There is also a spring inside the assembly and from what I see it's the spring that closes the poppet valve as the result of lever movement. See below. When the operator engages the parking brake lever, linkage turns shaft (1). Lever (2) is connected to shaft (1) and pushes poppet valve (3) down against check valve (4). This blocks the flow of oil from passage (5) to passage (11), chamber (17) and the brakes. This also opens passage (11), chamber (17) and the brakes to drain through passage (9). With no oil pressure to the brakes, they engage to prevent movement of the tractor. I've also included the parts manual illustration for the parking brake valve because it's clearer than the illustration above. Note that the Rod 11 does not push directly on poppet 14, it pushes it via spring 13. Therefore what actuates the poppet valve 14 is pressure (via the spring) and not movement per se. If the external operating lever moves no further from the OFF to the ON position with the linkage connected or disconnected I would suggest that there may be internal problems in the park brake valve. Remove seat 16 and check for a broken spring maybe..?
It's unbelievable how complicated they have made the system. There's nothing worse than an engineer that has to justify his job. They design things to work and not to be able to simply diagnose a problem with a needlessly over complicated system.
Be glad it's not a new machine that's all electronic with DPF. You have to pay someone big bucks to come out with a lap top just to diagnose the problem.
I went back in yesterday and disconnected the linkage from the control handle to operate the bell crank unobstructed. my thought was to feel if there might be a deten somewhere in the poppet valve system. The lever moves up and down freely and made no difference to position with the tractor warmed up and running. It has GOT to be in the internals of the brake release valve. I HAVE GOT TO GET A MANUAL!!!
The Service Manual for that tractor is two separate documents. SENR5290 covers Disassembly & Assembly SENR3115 covers Specifications, Schematics, System Operation, and Testing & Adjusting.
It looks like the 3115 would be the one to get. Thanks.
Thanks for all the tips, info and suggestions. After reading through a couple of different threads, I went back to a linkage issue. I pulled the floor pan and removed 2-3 tons of debris and rat "left overs". Some of the linkages were stiff and stuck. I got them all freed up and readjusted the main pedal to trans linkage and sure enough the brakes release. I don't know how long they had been stuck or dragging but they don't work worth a damn. I guess next is to research replacing the brakes. It's pretty tough working on a machine with no book and without knowing it's previous history. one thing for sure is that at sometime in it's life, somebody took it swimming. There's surface rust where you wouldn't expect it.
Well, well. A linkage problem at the end of the day. Who’d have thunk it.?
Here's one. Bear in mind that a new paper one is over $1,000, even in CD it's $600. https://www.ebay.com/p/1332531290
If the belly pans or anywhere else gets full of dirt and other stuff it will hold moisture that will cause rusting. You get mice or other rodents in there it will be worse. Always good to keep the belly pans clean.
Why didn't someone think of that back on about post number 13? Belly pans need to be thought of as a normal maintenance item and not what you do when everything else stops working! Had a 980G from an fother plant that somehow an "operator" managed to fill the belly pan under the engine with about a foot of stone. How a front end loader gets crushed stone that deep in a belly pan is something I could never understand. Well shortly after I cleaned it out I ended up with an oil leak on the cooler lines, guess being buried in wet stone for a few years is not good for steel lines! Who Knew?
Yep, it was decieving. The linkages moved but not far enough. I'm thinking too it may have been more in the bell crank linkage between the pedal drop linkages to the horizontal linkage to the trans. It was hard to tell what wasn't happy. It's in a crappy place to work on. In the shop I could have pulled everything and beat it to death much easier.
Not having a book is like brain surgery by braille. If it was my dozer, I'd have a book. The owner is a non-mechanical rancher that isn't big on prevention. He calls someone to come fix stuff when it doesn't work. Sometimes getting free use of a machine doesn't turn out free as it's supposed to. I should be able to transport in the next few days. When I get it here I may end up getting the book anyway. Next I think it's going to need brakes. Now that their not dragging, they don't work really all that well. I'm not looking forward to that.
Fortunately for you (and the operator) it has a Big Yellow Brake mounted to the front end of it..............
You can always tell the owner you won't work on it until he pays for a manual or gets copy of what the manual shows for working on the brakes. The shop that rebuilt my engine was kind enough to print out the removal procedure for me. They've done the same for other things I've had to repair too but I've spent a fair amount with them. That said it was with the old service dept. team. The new service dept. is brutal though. Had to pay up front to pull a sprocket off a hyd. motor and they had my motor as collateral. Go to pick it up the next day and it hadn't moved off the counter. Then one of the parts guys is upset at me because I was asking the difference between 2 similar hydraulic filters listed for my machine. They are the distributor for the filters. Shouldn't the distributor be able to find out about the products they sell? I went with the newer filter listed and found online it is a 5 micron and the older listing was an 8 micron. Distributor should have been able to tell me that.
Hah! Yeh,,,,, it's belongs to a buddy. He's letting me have it for extended loan,,,,,for free. I'm going to use it for clearing burned trees and brush. We just survived the SCU fire. I'm figuring to pull a 100' or so of anchor chain between it and my D5. I'm also going to use it as the yo-yo for the really steep work. So,,,, it's pretty hard to lay down much in demands.
Update,,, I got it moving and doing what it's supposed to more or less. The brakes were pretty weak but sort of worked enough for being able to move it. I walked it out a couple miles and the brakes started to clear up and actually got to something I would be content with. It was even starting to be able to cross friction fairly well on ups and downs. Everything was working better that I had expected. I shifted up and down 1-2 all in forward. After a couple miles I was going to park it to order up a transport and when I hit the decel the brakes locked. I ran the rpm up and down in and out of gear. a couple times at WOT with the trans already in gear it would be sitting like in neutral then wham drop into gear and act semi normal until I hit the decel and the brakes would lock and rpm would hit the governor. I'm hoping for trans filter. Any thoughts? Something else,,,, does anyone have the # for the 4H series 2 trany filter? I have a case of them for my 5B so i'm hoping for an same same.
Trans filter element 1R-0719, formerly 9M-9740.
Well I lucked out there! Living smack dab in the middle of nowhere, parts are sometimes difficult to get. It's great when I accidentally have what I need on hand. Thanks again for the info.
I got back out to the machine this morning and pulled the trans filter. I've seen hundreds of bad and slightly deformed filters but nothing like this. This is exactly how it came out. I brought it back to the shop and did a cut and press and a bigger surprise is there is no metal to be seen. Maybe some micro- metal if you hold it up to the sun just right but nothing like I was expecting. I also found out that this is the filter that was in it when the owner bought the machine in 2007.
You would be good to pull the magnetic strainer too
It is MIA. For the length of time I'm going to run it, I will drop a ring magnet inside the filter.
I'm assuming you know the magnetic strainer is NOT in the same housing as that imploded filter? It is shown here as #41 Could not find a maintenance manual for the D4H right off on SIS.
Thanks for the info. When the mag strainer was mentioned, I drew a complete blank as to it's location. Something didn't click in my head but I couldn't figure it out that there is no room for the oem mag strainer in the filter housing. That was a big DUH on my part. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I knew something wasn't right but had no clue. I'm going back out after daylight this morning to replace the filter. Now I can clean the strainer too.
A bit more help please. I'm trying to picture the filter housing in my soggy brain and the location of where the strainer will be. I see it in the diagram but in actual location, where is it in orientation to the filter housing? Would it be forward of the housing? Left side as would be under left foot sitting in the seat? I don't know this machine well enough at all to picture where it will be. Is there an under floor picture available?
Front of the machine is to the right in KSH's diagram above. Find the transmission pump (mounted on manifold 11) and follow the pump suction line (hose 37) back to the rear machine case. Directly above where that hose clamps at the back end should be an oval plate (12) secured by two bolts. The mag screen is behind that.
Thanks. I should be able to figure it out from there. In a couple hours we'll find out how smart I really am,,,,,
Sorry about the drawing but that was the best I could find! Sometimes Cat is real good on showing things and other times they like to make you work for it! Still from all the various equipment I worked on over 40+ years Cat is one of if not the best!
I'm not going to admit that I couldn't find the strainer. Let's just say I decided to wait until I can get it into my shop.
FYI. You'll need the transmission oil drained before you can remove the strainer.
Speaking of manuals. I have a large assortment of manuals and all of them are only as good as the guy reading them and the guy that wrote them. Some of them are pretty good though others are more like comic books. The Cat manuals are good enough but not always easy to find what your looking for. I have a case 580 series PDF manual that is searchable. Very easy to find what your looking for. I have Komatsu D100-D155 manuals that would be better served in an outhouse.
It's a good thing I couldn't find it,,,,,
The saga continues. While I'm waiting for a book to come in, I have a couple more questions. I have a lowbed coming tomorrow so was walking the tractor out after changing the imploded filter everything worked great for about a half hour until the trans started to heat past 210. It didn't want to go into gear unless holding WOT and waiting for it to engage maybe 10 seconds later with a severe slam. I let it cool a bit and it got somewhat better, but Got hot again in about 5 minutes. What could be causing the overheating? Plugged strainer? Funky oil? Plugged oil cooler? Bad trans pump? When I get it in here I'll drain and replace the oil and go on another search for the illusive strainer. Last question, How much oil does it hold?
SAE30 TO-4. Use the table below as an approximate guide. there were a number of changes in D4H during its lifetime so use the dipstick (engine @ low idle, trans in neutral, oil @ normal operating temp) to get correct oil level.
Thanks. It looks like another barrel of to4 in my future. I usually run a gallon or 2 high. It seems we're always working in the steeps. I can remember running an old 46A when it lost tranny pressure. It's amazing how fast it came back down a hill backwards.
As per usual, increase the oil volume by 10% if working on adverse slopes. Thing is that you need to know how much you've put into it on the flat to start with before you can figure out how much 10% of that is. I think high on your list after getting hold of the barrel of oil is find that suction screen. Take photos of whatever you find in it.
My usual way of determining a high oil level has been to run the high level plus the approximate distance from the low to high marks. Not very scientific but accurate enough to work. I'll take some pix when I actually find the strainer
Good day, we have a cat d6h not moving forward or reverse, but the drive shaft is running. We already change the transmission pump, torque converter defective parts, filters and oils. Still the final drive is not moving. Thank you guys.
Oh come on Dave there’s just so much they can do with a cellphone in their hand and their head up their ash.lol
The above comment trying to insult me is out of line and unnecessary. I guess some people just like to see their names in print.
Here's a photo of the strainer. It's the nastiest strainer I've ever seen. Luckily it has no chunks in it. It all appears to be extremely fine. I'm figuring it's brake and friction material.
Shopguy was referring to the parts guy Dave was fussing about, not you, John.
Okay. Maybe I was a little over sensitive and didn't take it right. It was the ash part I keyed on. We're just trying to recover from one of the largest wildfires in CA. history, so ash jokes don't set well.
I don't care much for the appearance of that black residue. Was the oil you drained a similar colour.? If so did it smell burned.?
The oil was blacker than black. It didn't smell particularly burnt. It hadn't been changed not the filter serviced in at least 13 years. I don't know how many hours that totaled but it was a ranch tractor that only saw use on weekends and a few days a week occasionally. It was replaced a few years ago with a 5 so has been sitting ever since.
F,O,G and manuals cheapest money an owner can spend
And I for one can never understand the philosophy of people who in some cases pay tens of thousands of $ for a machine then jib about paying $50-100 for a manual.
Yes I agree, If having the manual for the machine saves an hour or two of down time it has paid for itself. And if it eliminates just one service call from dealer it is almost as good as winning the lottery!
Nige I couldn't agree more. In this case the owner barely has control of the correct end of a crescent wrench. He leaves repair to others and doesn't feel the need for a manual. Me being the recipient of this neglected and beaten old girl ,,, well,,,I don't really want to spend $400.00 bucks for a manual for a tractor that I don't own. I'm between a rock and a dozer so to speak. I can't thank Nige and others for all the PDF's and pointers that I have gotten. I finally got it all back together this morning. A quick munch for lunch and I'm going to take it for a test drive. I already know the brakes don't hold worth a damn. I'm hoping as the trans/brake system get nice fresh oil and the micro fine filter do their job that there may be some pedal recovery. Think happy thoughts.........
If it was only 100 bucks instead of 400 bucks for a BTS manual I would be all over it!! Like I said above. "ain't my tractor"
I understand your position 100% regarding a manual in your specific circumstances when you don't own the machine. A thought. If you have $400 that you can spare temporarily why not buy one then re-sell it later.? It's not as if it's going to go down in price and there are loads of that model kicking around so there ought to be quite a few potential buyers.
Yep I had thought of that. Unfortunately for us we have thousands of bucks worth of fire damage. My buddy was trying to do me a favor by letting me have the 4 for as long as I need it. It's turning into more trouble, time and $$ than I wanted to spend right now. I'm not complaining, it's just a fact. I took it for a little test and the f'ing brakes won't release again! It's going to be a flower pot until I can get a field guy out here that KNOWS what he's doing. It's irritating as hell. I've had my old 8H down to damn near a bare frame as well as my 5b apart from radiator to fuel cap. This 4H is a different animal.
Check the foot brake next to the decelerator and make sure it isn't sticking. If its a open cab machine it could be rusty from dry shafts. Happen to me.