Hoping for a couple opinions or links from others who have made some battery choices... My recently acquired D5 (84H493) was sold to me with "I did you the favor and switched out the expensive CAT batteries to regular Group 31's"...knowing some about the various "group" batteries, didn't think much about it, especially with the machine cranking over with ease. After machine gets dropped off, owner apologizes for the battery "rework"...basically warning me his "rigging" was to be checked! As the pictures show, the "jumper" cables are inadequate and the connectors likely will need rework too (haven't remove the black tape yet). I load-tested each battery, one of the 31's couldn't pass. Not good, especially after each one was removed, fully charged/maintained for a better part of a day, then I let them sit for 4 to 5 hours off the charger (resting!)...then did the load test. All at 60 degree temps - in Maine thats a HOT day! As you can see in the pictures, there is PLENTY of room for a group 31 battery, which makes sense since the recommended 4D battery is TWICE the animal as a 31!!! I know- as the saying goes - there's no replacement for displacement. The reality is that this machine WILL sit for several(!) months at a time...maybe watching 4D's age out might be too painful to witness... So do I stick it out with Group 31's that are easier to get(except during our ridiculous supply shortages!), cheaper (get what you pay for!), but certainly easier to move/swap? Is there a 3rd option I'm missing? Big-rig batteries? Believe linking golf cart batteries are out since they won't fit in battery boxes...plus I imagine that to be a cable/hook-up S-show! Once I lock-in on the battery decision then I'll know how to fix my battery connections/cables...which brings me to: With a 24 volt system - when a jump-start/boost is needed: what hookup tricks have you guys found best? Having never boosted a 24-volt system, I can't see how the system can be boosted without two batteries and two sets of jumper cables, right? Do I add in a HD connector/plug to my battery bank to let me plug into the machine when the boost needs to happen (likely when it's ZERO out but “feels like” -25 b/o wind!)? Not to mention could use that plug as a way to plug a battery maintainer/charger into the battery bank... And to round out the info – 24-volt starter, generator, regulator - If I've read correctly, CAT phased out 24-volt systems in favor of 12-volt systems. I assume this was possible because of (better?) gear reduction starters? And likely b/o better starting direct injection diesel engines, not to mention the required sensors/computers/screen/etc? Would I have any options/incentives to swap my 24-volt system to a 12-volt system?? I've ditched a few generators on old 60's cars in favor of alternators (with built in regs)...but I make no assumptions something off an 80's/90's machine would direct bolt on...maybe with a little fab work?? Are there shops I should know about that specialize in 24volt parts/rebuilds? Thanks! D5Dan PS Just remembered I saw dash board lights (not sure they work)...plus the front/rear headlights (gone off my machine, but wires are there)...those must be powered off only one battery...hmmm...more research required
checkout the stamping in the plywood of the armrest!! Part number and all The seat back has ‘73 stamped in it
If I was you I would put the 4ds back in it and throw those bolt on terminals away.
Its many years ago now, but back then I considered the cat branded batteries good, just my opinion. For sure with the smaller/fewer batteries they will be simpler to replace when they go bad. More connections to maintain. At that time, (and now), there was/is, good reasons to use the large batteries, depending on application and location. A single large battery is quite often much more of a chore to replace. Cables and ends need repair/replace.
Wow. What a wall of text. I’d put the 4D batteries back in and secure them. And fix those connections and cables as necessary. Clean up the battery boxes, de-rust and paint. Those 31’s are going to bounce all around when you do tractor stuff. The 950 amp group 31’s are a little fragile in applications like that. Even, when they are secure. Looks like a dangerous mess to me.
Cat 4d's are around 300 dollars each with those and good terminals cable ends you will have dependable starting power for many years You can get non cat brand 4d batterys also one good thing means you don't have cores is that cat doesn't require/ add more to the purchase price for them As far as going 12v No 24 volt is far superior most cats bigger than a skid steer are 24 volt also all your bulbs will be 24 volt too all those are readily available if your whole headlamp assembly's are gone you might want to switch to led work lights most of them work on 24 volts and give excellent light Jump starting from 12 volts you just hook the cables to one battery at a time in the normal way positive to positive negative to negative let it charge and move the to other one it would be safest to take at least the ground cable off but most people don't if you have two vehicles or 2 battery chargers you can do both batterys at once You would use a maintainer on each battery if you felt that necessary it shouldn't be with the proper battery's installed
If it was mine, I would consider sticking with 31s due to the cost. But secure them properly. But I would replace the cable connections. The taped up part would not bother me as long as the connections under the tape are 100% and the tape is well made. It does look like all the connections need going over/replacing. Maybe the extra work is not worth it and putting 4Ds back would be cost effective.
First thing would be to replace those bolt on cable ends with good crimped ends or soldered ends. Seal them with good hot melt lined heat shrink tubing and check both ends of those cable if the battery ends are that bad I would expect the same or worse at the other ends! I would go for the 4D's myself. Trying to convert to 12 volts would be a major cost. You would need to replace the starter and generator/alternator for starters and if this is a machine with glow plugs that's another cost.
We do a lot of g31 stud top conversions, people like having just one style battery in all their stuff. Have someone make new cables and get some universal battery hold down kits. If it's a machine that sits there's lots of 24V battery tender options out there too, plug in and solar.
Dunno where you got that info but it's not correct. Technically 24v is far superior to 12v in every respect. Apart from the really small stuff where there is no room for two batteries pretty much everything else is 24v and has been since Jesus played left back for Jerusalem United. Use two batteries with the +ve of one connected to the -ve of the other one via a short bridge cable (#2), then use 1 set of jumper cables - see below.
Oh please Cat guru reveal to to us poor mortals how 24 volts is so far superior to 12 volt whatevers. Bob
I would guess half the amps for the same power is a big part of it. The other thing I didn't realize for a while, is voltage drop is not related to the system voltage, but only the amps. So a 6V battery hooked to the same size and length cables and connections as a 24V battery and putting the same amperage through them will have the same voltage drop, BUT 2V will make a much bigger difference to the 6V than the 24V system (33% drop vs 8% drop in voltage) With the half amps for the same power, I'd put two group 31 batteries with threaded studs in there. Replace all of the ends most likely. None of those look good, and the extensions look like they were borrowed from a lawn tractor.
OMG..........
Hey Guys, Just want to thank everyone for the feedback...especially the info/heads-up about the 24-volt stuff. Prime example- I forgot about the glow plugs(!?) (which probably only 2 outta 6 work at the moment), 24-volt LED's, and a multi battery charger (like the one my buddy uses to charge the two batteries on his 24-volt trolling motor). Needless to say, I'll be staying with the 24-volt system! Now the battery deal. I can't agree more with using the original designed 4D's. Good reminder about the strength of the internals of the battery, I bet a 4D is built to handle some ass-over-tea-kettle stuff...but now a days, who knows... Plan now is to fix this abortion of connections to go back to the 4D's. In the pics (I'll post them shortly), one outta 4 looks to the have the original connector. The other three are WHOA-material ...can't wait to see what the other ends look like!?!? Maybe there's enough "slack" in the various cables so I can nip back to find fresh copper, then solder on new ends? (NAPA in the past has sold cable ends that have the solder in the hole...liquify and shove it home!). Add some HD shrink tubing and some battery hold-downs ...in the end I believe these fixes are answers to - "what does the next guy want to see on this machine" In the short term - I gotta use these Group 31's. I just need the 31's long enough to work thru some more maintenance/tests/checks. It still has an over full belly pan of crap, badly needs an oil/filter change...and while it started, ran, pushed fine 2 months ago, I want some hours on the ole girl to better understand my entire "fix list" ...and at the moment, that list is getting longer and longer. But I think this old D5 is worth it...
Here’s the right-hand battery box
here is the left side...
Other than the ugliness factor, putting an extension in the middle of the battery bolt like that is electrically fine. Those 2 bolt terminals, though, are good for getting going in a pinch, but the connection always fails later.
Here are some ugly pics: dash fuse panel (checkout the hot spot on the board!)...is the round (painted) knob to right of fuse board used to turn on dash lights? Or a fuse? wires hanging out side of dash...might have powered a wiper motor (no longer on machine) or ?? seat area - multi color yellow is tough to look at - spray can hero got me good single wire hanging out nose where headlights used to be
those extension cables are way too light, maybe not a big deal for a temporary deal. The bad ends you can cut back to the full cable, the corrosion can go quite a ways, you can dip the end in rust remover phosphoric acid, or sulfuric acid to get bright copper to crimp or solder. I solder even knowing it's not technically correct because it will cause the cable to crack at the stiff point where the solder ends. If I was Nige, I'd do it different. If he had a hobby antique at home, he might solder them too.
The wiring job is about what I would expect to see on something that old. I have customers who have gone to Group 31 batteries on many if not most of their machines. If the machine runs a couple of times a week, it isn't a problem. However, if the machine sits for a month or more, the extra capacity of the 4D units will save you trying to find something to jump start the machine with. I don't recall if those machines had the wiring in looms or not but there are plenty of them running extra wires over the top of the looms because what is inside them have cracked or broken oil soaked insulation on individual wires and have plenty of short or dead circuits. Are those pedals on the left side of the picture for the blade tilt?
Hey John, Thanks for the reply; I can definitely see the advantages of having group 31’s in everything. I esp agree with you’re point about the 4D’s having reserve cap after sitting is what I would expect too...and likely need! you’re right about the foot pedals in the pic- they run the blade tilt...can see the tilt ram in this pic - the day I evicted the (damn) rodents...this is the same day I reinstalled the door lexan and JB Welded the four (small) holes in roof...happy to report the inside stays dry/drier(!). Now to trap the neighbors cat inside to battle the army of mice around here - insane!?!
Prior owner just installed new group 4D batteries in my F-A machine in July. With his discount they were only $140.00 each and I used group 31 series as cores. They are East Penn manufactured but the reserve capacity is much greater than the Interstates used as cores. The original 4D batteries still test good but are several years old, so will mount them onto my homemade jump starting cart at the shop. Given my machine will set much more than it's used, I decided to stay this way. I do however keep everything on battery maintainers if it sets much. That is a nice looking tractor.
The group 31T Interstates I run are 195RC and the 4D are 295RC. This becomes especially important with an engine that sits a lot, or can be problematic starting requiring a long crank cycle. I typically run soldered, or hydraulic crimped with adhesive lined shrink tube environmental sealing on 1/0 starting battery cables with trucks and industrial equipment. My dozer will be no exception once it is back at the shop but I don't know what is currently installed.
The standard out here is 2/0 cable for battery cables. I've done both the soldered and crimped terminals. I'm too cheap to buy a crimper but I usually have a torch and since I don't use a service truck anymore, I wouldn't carry a crimper anyway. Both work just fine. I usually tape the open ends of the terminal. It's not the best way but most of my clients won't pay enough that I would purchase and carry the shrink tube. I can buy a sleeve of tape rolls for about $8.00 and that will last two or three years. Tape will work for all my electrical work no matter what size so tape is what is used.
I fat fingered that. Should have read 2/0 in the paragraph. I usually use #2 on gasoline powered units if replacing cables. Back before copper prices skyrocketed I purchased a spool of 2/0 welding cable at $0.68 a foot and am still nursing that. Can't really have too large of cable in low voltage circuits to preclude losses. We always ran either 4/0, or well into the MCM range for standby power generation setups, and battery bank inverter power backups.