I recently purchased a D5C (9DL) that had an awful knock and needed an engine overhaul. Ended up pulling the engine and putting a new crankshaft (scarred up bad) and overhaul kit in it. Got everything back together and it runs great. The issue I’m having now is that it doesn’t have the power turning like it should. It’s a lever steer and when I pull the right lever to disengage that clutch and engage brake the left track is very weak and pushes the machine around very slow. Won’t even turn it in second or third gear. It turns to the left much better as the right track is stronger. Also I tried pushing into a big tree to see if it would turn the tracks over but neither track will spin when it’s in a bind even in first gear. I am pretty familiar with how this type transmission (power shift) functions as I have rebuilt the hlr shuttle and steering clutches in a Deere 450D before. I know you are suppose to have certain pressures but on this machine I’m not sure even where to check those pressures or what they are. Assuming the pump can be shimmed to increase pressure like on a Deere? I did ensure that the relief valve on the steering clutch valves are being able to come all the way back out with the current linkage adjustment. I also adjusted brake bands to make sure they aren’t dragging. I purchased a downloadable manual for $57 online and it’s the most pathetic thing ever. Almost 4000 pages and none of the groups or sections are even in order with no table of contents or page numbers. Extremely difficult to find what I’m looking for if it’s even in there. So here I am asking for help. If you guys could help me out I would greatly appreciate it.
As always in life, you get what you pay for. Except on HEF of course where you don't pay a dime and the advice you receive is worth exactly what you pay for it........ Consider the fact that an official Service Manual for your tractor, Caterpillar Publication reference SENR5330, retails for $675 new in paper form or $475 in pdf format on a CD. You can search for that reference and possibly find a used copy for less. See if the attached helps any. It's just one part of SENR5330
I would remove the little cover on transmission cover and check p1 and p2 if you get a low pressure like 80 pounds instead of the 300 something pressure I think you need a load piston orfice it is in pressure control valve it is plastic and has a screen on it screen breaks and plugs up orfice and load piston don't work
I really appreciate you helping me out with that section of the manual. I’m gonna see if I can’t figure something out with it.
I will give that a try and see what it reads. Thanks man
Pull the floor board and see if the drive shaft is spinning when your tracks are stalled
That’s a good idea. That would isolate it to either a transmission or steering clutch issue correct? If shaft spins when tracks stall its steering clutches if it doesn’t then it’s the transmission.
Well it could be the transmission clutches slipping too
I tested the ports listed as P1 and P2 in the top of the transmission as per the manual. The pressures are within spec. I pushed into a large tree (that the machine wouldn’t push over regardless) and just like the last time the tracks stall. With the floor cover out I looked down and the driveshaft stalls as well when the tracks do. With the correct pressures at this point I would have to assume clutches in the transmission shuttle are my issue? Would you guys agree? Have any of you done this repair? How bad of a job is it? I’ve rebuilt the transmission shuttle in a Deere 450C but this is a little different setup obviously.
No I would not agree. If the transmission clutches were slipping the drive shaft would be slowly turning even though the tractor was not moving. I would say maybe a converter or engine problem. Next step test the converter inlet & outlet pressures and report back.
if the drive shaft is stalled tracks are not going to turn if you had clutches slipping the drive shaft would turn I think you need to check stall speed it will tell you if engine is making enough power
check stall speed if that is OK then check convertor in and out pressures my bet is on the convertor did you pull strainer and filter to see if it has any aluminum it them
Strainer on bottom of the transmission? I did but didn’t see anything bad.
I will try testing torque converter pressures
When you guys say stall speed what are you referring to? Is that what the manual calls “speed clutch”? Sorry for the ridiculously amateur question. I’m use to a regular clutch not a torque converter.I should also report that when stalling machine into a tree the engine bogs down very little.
Get all the systems (engine coolant, transmission oil, etc) up to normal operating temperature. Apply the service brake. Engage 3rd speed forward, accelerate to the maximum RPM the engine can make against the brakes. Record that number, that's the [converter] stall speed. Do not hold the converter stalled at full power for more than about 10 seconds at a time. If you do more than one stall test allow the transmission oil temp to cool between tests.
Two quick questions. My machine is a hand lever steer. When you say service brake you are referring to the pedal brake that only operates both brake bands and does not release steering clutches correct? When performing the test which test port should I use? P1, P2?
That is correct. Press the pedal hard and apply the brakes, the steering clutches stay engaged. Neither. You are only measuring the maximum engine RPM that the engine reaches with the torque converter in a stalled condition.
On second thought, I don’t recall this machine having a tachometer. Should it? It has a hour meter but not a tachometer that I remember. I’ll check tomorrow
If it doesn't then you will require a phototach or something similar to measure engine RPM off the crankshaft front pulley.
I got a phototach and did the stall test. It could not overcome the brakes and move the tracks in third gear. Also tried it in first just to see if it would and still can’t move the tracks. The max engine rpm in neutral read 2398. The max engine rpm in third high with brake pedal to the floor was 1650. Engine sounds to be running absolutely perfect so I don’t feel like that’s my issue. I pulled the plugs to test converter inlet and outlet pressure but of course it’s a different size fitting than the other test ports so I’ve gotta get a fitting to adapt the gauge. Kinda sounding like I need to rebuild the converter at this point?
!650 sounds low to me need to find spec
It should eventually move the machine even with brake pedal pressed as I throttle up correct?
Not in 3rd speed forward provided that the brakes are working well. It might just start to creep in 1st speed but that’s why the instructions are to do it in 3rd. That’s the whole point of “converter stall”, the machine should not be moving with the torque converter in a stalled condition.
Gotcha. It also will not move the machine in first gear. So with the results what is your opinion as to what could be the issue? I found a fitting and tested the converter outlet pressure since it can be accessed without pulling transmission top cover. It was only like 10 psi with brakes applied in third forward as the manual states to test it. Spec shows to be 60 to 75 psi
As the Chinaman would say - Sum Ting Wong. That is provided it was the correct test point for converter outlet pressure. Transmission lubrication pressure would be about 10psi under those conditions. Can you confirm that it was the correct test point please
Per the photo in the manual (that you kindly sent me) the outlet and lube pressure are side by side on the side of the top transmission cover. The lube pressure port shows to be toward the front of the machine and the converter outlet toward the rear. I tested the rear port. In neutral the pressure showed to be 50-60 psi then when put in gear as the manual shows to test the pressure drops down around 10. Sum Ting Wong hahahahaha
Humour me and see what pressure you get from the other port next to it please. It won't be the first time I've seen a Cat manual illustration labelled wrong and TBH I can't remember which of the two test ports is which. You may have been on the correct one the first time, I just want to be sure.
No problem, will do. Probably be tomorrow.
Did some more pressure test. Verified that the lube pressure (front port) was steady on about 10. Pulled the top cover off transmission to check converter inlet let pressure. Got a solid 140psi at high idle. Tested outlet pressure again in 3 forward with brakes held at high idle and it seemed to fluctuate. First time I tested with cold oil it was about 50psi. Tested it a couple more times and it got as low as 15-20psi. Sometimes it would go back up around 50. Not great consistency. Just to note, it had about 100psi in neutral at high idle on the outlet test port.
I'd like to know what @pittsburgh cat man thinks about this. Your tractor does not have an outlet relief valve mounted on the outside of the torque converter housing. Instead the converter pressure is controlled by a ratio valve spool in the transmission control valve. See the SysOp document, Page 10. I'm not familiar with this system and so a bit lost as to what to suggest next.
Yes I would like his opinion as well. Wouldn’t a low outlet pressure indicate an issue with the converter? I did call Cat to price a new converter from them… $9500 and 3 months to get lol. Best deal I found was $3000 on a reman with exchanging mine for a core. Changing it looks to be quite the chore though.
Don't even think about a converter, or even trying to pull yours and repair it/have it repaired until all possible avenues regarding the converter pressure control inside the Selector & Pressure control valve inside the transmission have been exhausted. For all I know it could be a broken spring, a stuck spool, a split O-Ring, or something similar inside that valve..
I like the way you think. Gonna see what Cat man thinks on the situation. Are the transmissions on these machines considered to be pretty reliable?
I would say so. How many total hours does the tractor have on it.?
Usally inlet pressure is to protect the torque The following is how we tested a torque (1) put tractor in 3rd gear stall watch torque temp till it just touches red zone on gauge (2) put tractor in nuetral leave trrottle at high speed it should drop down pretty fast (3) third gear stall again take it back to touching red (4) Back to nuetral still at full throttle let torque cool down (5) watch where the torque cooles down to when you stall it a few times when cool it down it will hit about the same point on temp gauge(6) when you get a pretty stable reading when it cools (7)3rd gear stall again take torque to start of red on torque temp gauge THIS TIME DO NOT TAKE TRAN OUT OF 3rd MOVE THROTTLE TO IDLE WATCH GAGE YOU SHOULD SEE IT DROP DOWN IN TEMP it won't go fast as long as you can see it move you are good I'm concerned about the 1650 stall speed you need to post your complete serial number so maybe Nige can get a dyno sheet on it
9DL1992 is serial Cat Man. Nige the hour meter shows just shy of 7500
Only reason for engine rebuild was a rod bolt backed off and it slung the cap off. Rod came off and was laying up against the block over the oil gallery and the crank was hitting it every rotation into the block. Busted a hole in the gallery that I was able to weld up. Scarred the crank so had to replace it. Runs good now though
I'll look up the dyno test if I can find it. If not I may have to go via the engine Test Spec. @Dkc923 - can you take a look at the engine data plate. Apart from the Serial Number there should be an Arrangement Number and also possibly a Test Spec Number. The Test Spec will be something like OKxxxx or 2Txxxx. The issue as I see it is what Cat refer to as the "torque check RPM" is not the same as the torque converter stall RPM. Torque Check RPM will be significantly lower than converter stall RPM, certainly in my experience.
Sure will. I remember seeing it on top of the valve cover. Will be just a little bit and I’ll post it
I've been having a low-key look into it this morning. Trouble is it's a MHI manufactured engine and the usual information isn't available. All that said, the high idle of 2400RPM is correct, but the stall of 1650RPM does seem low to me. If I was to put a guesstimate on it, I would be looking at no less than 2000RPM. Aside from the steering problem which is another subject altogether, I'd be looking for an engine power issue first.
@pittsburgh cat man - do you think it is worth pulling the transmission control valve out of the case and giving it the once-over to check for anything out of place.? From my side I would like to conclusively eliminate everything external to the converter before even contemplating ripping it out for disassembly/inspection.
I may be wrong but I get the impression that the "steering problem" is actually a lack of drive which probably brings us full circle back to possibly a torque converter issue. I'm prepared to be proved wrong though.
I was going off post #1 which suggests a steering problem. It will be interesting to see the tag on the engine, although I'm not getting too exited yet.
As things have developed over the past couple of pages I figured that the lack of power turning mentioned in the OP and also the fact that it won’t spin the tracks in 1st speed up against a hard object it somewhat focused things into a lack of pushing power.
I've seen very few times a spool would break i dont think i would be pulling the valve just yet I had a buddy do a little checking he couldnt find spec for d5c but he found 3046 in other machines stall ranged from 1950 to2100 having complete serial number might help if he does the stall test and watches torque temp like i said above and the gauge move down in last step torque is prob fine On the last step you still have tran locked up and you are at min flow with pump the gage will move down very slow
That’s my thought exactly as well. Almost as if the left side is just a little tighter so it stalls easier than the right.
Engine tag picture posted above
Bugger. No Test Spec Number. I will have to try to track it down via the Arrgt Number but there are no guarantees.
That’s so far beyond me, I trust whatever you say.
Your stall speed is way to low I agree with CMark you need to check engine
thanks for the confirmation Dave. @Dkc923 - when operating does the engine puff out any sort of black smoke at all.? If so under what conditions.? Also what maintenance work did you do to the fuel system when you were overhauling the engine.?
I agree you are looking at an engine lack of power. 1650 is quite low. I would expect to see around 2000 rpm stall speed. What is the fuel pressure?
Can't find any test data. Unsurprising I suppose, seeing as it is an MHI engine. Interesting that the engine data plate says "Hi Idle RPM 2600" and "Full Load RPM 2400". That backs up the comments above regarding converter stall RPM needing to be closer to 2000 rather than the actual 1650 that the OP got from testing. @Dkc923 - do the test suggested by @pittsburgh cat man in Post #37 on Page 2 carefully. Note and report your results, just to close the book on it or not as the case may be because the issue of the varying/low outlet pressure has not yet been addresses.
Actually yes it does. A lot of black smoke at all rpms. The turbo is blowing some oil that I can see on the charge boot. Seals are bad and shaft has play. New turbo on the way but didn’t figure that would cause a severe lack of power. Turbo still seems to be putting out good body pressure just feeling by hand.
Well hellooooooooooooooo........... 3 pages in and now he tells us....!! Where else do you think the air necessary to burn the fuel and provide full engine power is going to come from apart from what the turbo is blowing.? Is the turbo you have coming genuine Cat or "will fit".? Is it the correct Part Number.? I see the correct one as 107-6338.
Well just to clarify, in my line of work (semi trucks) turbo seals can be bad and you still have good boost pressure (the trucks have gauges). I understand that an engine starving for air will smoke. With the boost it is putting off I do not feel like that’s the case but anything is possible. I assumed the smoke was just from the seals. The turbo is aftermarket
So long as it is from somwhere reputable it ought to work. If it gets to that point do you have a gauge you can use to measure boost pressure.? There should be an NPT-threaded plug somewhere in the intake manifold.
Absolutely, I can measure the boost pressure. Really sorry about not offering that info up front. The engine just sounds so good and I knew the seals were leaking so I figured it was that. Pressure felt strong to the touch. Also thought it was a possibility my valve stem seals may be leaking because they didn’t get replaced causing some smoke.
It may sound good but if it is blowing the amount of black smoke you describe in pretty much all conditions it is most certainly "no bueno". I'm also a bit concerned that the High idle no Load RPM is given as 2600 RPM on the tag but you can only get a max of 2400. That might put itself right with the replacement of the turbo. Measure the boost pressure at torque converter stall in 3rd speed with all systems at normal operating temperature. Again unfortunately there are no specifications for this measurement.
That is something I will need to check. The pump does not currently have a gauge in it. I’m sure there is a test port on it somewhere I will look when I make it in.
Will do. 2398 to be exact on the high idle rpm.
It looks as though you have to tee something in. See attached. Range is 11-25psi.
That’s interesting…. Just to clarify isn’t the transfer pump on this machine mounted on the fuel (injection) pump? Everything was disconnected when I bought it. Running off a can going straight to fuel pump with return going back into can. It had set a while and they had it like that for testing purposes because fuel tank was dirty
Bearing in mind torque converter pressure is directly related to pump flow, and pump flow is directly related to engine RPM, I'm thinking we may get the pressure back when we get the engine speed up.
I think you’re right. I’m gonna be home shortly I’m starting to think I may have a fuel issue.
I interpret 2600 as high idle on the dyno, driving no accessories, water pump, fan etc. 2400 high idle as installed in the machine. 2400 as a full load rpm seems too far below 2600 to be valid. In my world, full load rpm, aka Balance Point or FLS, is only maybe 50 rpm below high idle. 2400 high idle is also quoted in SiS.
This machine seems like we are peeling back the layers on an onion. Every time we peel one layer back we find something else underneath.
I agree lol. Update below.
Here’s the update. Haven’t got a boost pressure gauge yet but I plan to tomorrow. Still getting a lot of black smoke. Smoke goes away on a deceleration then continues once engine steadies back out and always on acceleration. I cracked each injector line just to verify all cylinders are hitting and they are. Machine nearly dies when each is cracked one at a time. I took my temp gun and checked temp near the exhaust ports on the head beside each cylinder. Cylinder 1 consistently read 75-100 degrees lower than every other cylinder. Curious as to if I had an injector issue I swapped 1 and 3 injectors. Made no difference. At high idle consistently lower on 1 and low idle same thing. What I find interesting is that cylinder 1 is the farthest cylinder from the intake neck on the head. It intakes around cylinder 4 and 5. Do you guys think it’s a possibility that a lack of boost is not letting cylinder 1 breathe like it should and thus it’s staying cooler and not giving the power it should? I still have failed to hear any miss whatsoever yet I still have lots of black smoke. My timing marks are lined up on the front of the engine but are these pumps able to be advanced or retarded? Maybe a timing issue causing trouble? I ask because the engine doesn’t seem to start quite as easily as it should but maybe that’s just how these engines are. I did the stall test again and still getting just below 1650 in 3 forward with brakes held. I think my next step is gonna be the fuel pressure gauge and boost gauge.
This concerns me slightly. You should get an obvious missfire but the engine should run fairly happily on 5 cylinders. You may have a parasitic load dragging things down. How fast does it crank fuel-off? Do all the hydraulics seem OK? All the controls returning to neutral? Noticeable difference in load on the engine when you dead-head each cylinder in turn? I wouldn't get too hung up on exhaust temperatures if you can prove that all cylinders are contributing using the cracked injector lines test.
I wouldn't get too concerned about the ex temp the routing of ex thru manifold will cause some differances what are the temps of other cylinders?
Are you asking how the throttle response is? I would have to say not as good as I would anticipate. It’s not terrible but I think it may should be better. The hydraulics all seem to work perfectly fine. I can’t hear a misfire at all. It’s strange. Can videos be uploaded on here? I’d be happy to get a video of it running tomorrow so you guys could have a listen and see what you think.
Cylinders 2-6 were all in the range of 230-240 at low to medium idle with 1 being around 140-150. They all obviously go up a good bit at high idle but 1 still stays about the same amount cooler.
ex outlet close to number 1 ? lot more hot gas going thru back cylinders it is near number 1
No. It was in response to your comments about cracking the injection lines.
Ex outlet is right across from inlet between 4 and 5. Definitely least amount of heat passing through 1
What do you mean by how fast does it crank fuel off?
If you override the shutdown solenoid or otherwise cut the fuel supply to the engine, how fast does the starter turn the engine? Ideally it should be >100rpm.
Another random thought. Is the engine oil level OK? Not overfull? Correct part number dipstick?
Oh okay. I haven’t done that yet. I can try it and get a read with my phototach. It only has 1 1000 CCA battery in it right now so I’ve been using a 200 amp just start along with the battery to make it spin like it should. It does not act like it drags when spinning over
Yep oil level is good. Right around 13 quarts or so in it.
Just an update for you guys. Still waiting on the turbo to come in. Shipping doesn’t seem to be in much of a hurry with the Holidays. Showing delivery for Thursday Jan 2. I’ll get it put on and update you guys on the smoke/lack of power situation. Thanks again for y’all’s help.