I'm going to change the gear oil in my final drives, Since the tractor is 55 years old and of the age when gear wear in cat finals was known to be a problem I will be going with a heavy an oil as available...the machine is only used in warm weather so a GL-5 140 looks to be a good fit. Can anyone in the know confirm that? Is there a reason to NOT use this oil? Thanks in advance.
I think it's a matter of personal preference, but personally I would vote against it. IMHO a 140 is too heavy. Logic says the "heaviest oil you can find must be the best", but what happens to an oil that is so heavy that it cannot flow to where it needs to be in the finals before the machine warms up to normal operating temperature and causes problems due to lack of lubrication.? In that respect a heavier oil is a negative. I would suggest an SAE90 gear oil would be fine for your type of operation.
Thanks Nige, the fact that the finals on these old machines had thin wear surfaces on the gears I assumed the heavier oil would help aleaviate the slap when changing direction and slow the wear of the surfaces some. The oil that I drained looked free of metal particles and the magnetic plugs had very little metal sludge and no pieces so I suppose I'm looking for a solution without a problem.
I seem to recall that 50 weight engine oil was called for in Cat dozer finals. Isn't the viscosity of that somewhere around the same as a 90wt? I'm can't remember if the outboard support bearing on those were greased or ran in oil. I didn't see wear a being an issue on the old tractors. It was generally that things just broke inside there and we considered that a function of the operator or type of operation the machine was used in. Congratulations on keeping that machine running.
Hey Mcrafty, as I’m sure you’ve done, I looked thru several HEF projects/recommendation posts, then on my 67/68 D5 I used Tractor Supply 80w90 and a gallon of Lucas oil stabilizer (split between both finals). Truth be told I want to run the Cat TDTO 50 (in trans and finals)…but knowing the fluids in this machine are 10-12 years old(!) and have been “topped off with 15W40 engine oil” by PO, I figure why “waste” the Cat oil. My machine has some leaks and with the “sludge” that is likely in the various compartments; my plan is to hit the fluid reset “button”, run everything for a while, then change oils/filters (long before the decade mark!!). I also prefer changing oils when they’re HOT…everything is “mixed-in” and flows better. BTW, I now appreciate how difficult it is to clean/flush a final drive compartment- it’s dam tight in there! Since I’m juggling a few maintenance/repair items, I was NOT able to have the tracks up off the ground…this eliminated me from rotating the tracks while flushing the final with (small amount) of Kerosene…I’m VERY confident I would have gotten much more crap out... next time! Are you going to “hurt” your old final using 140 weight, doubt it. Probably the same can be said for a 30 weight! Then factor location “average” temp and your choices quickly narrow into the 40-90 “range” (likely). Lastly, I do believe certain oils have negative effects on the seals…but most seal leaks are caused by out of adjustment wear, age, or casualty of some other breakage. Hey- just the fact you’re getting old oil out and new oil in is huge! …and you got a data point on the magnet too!! I won’t even bitch about the lack of supply for oils/grease up this way… Wow…checkout the “choices” in the grease gun isle!!
This came to me from another forum, it's the reason I was thinking the heavy gear oil would be good for the old machine and the fact that I just use it in the summer months. "As I remember back in the day there were only two grades of oil used in the D6, HD30 series 3 engine oil every where except the hydraulics which took HD10, due to the ever recurring final drive failure that plagued all Cats of that era most people took it upon themselves to use gear oil in the final drives in the hope it would reduce the slap in the poorly engineered gears that the hardness was very shallow and wore off after a few years service causing the teeth to pick up and fail, the capacity of the components is usually quoted from when they are dry, I have scribbled in my notebook Engine 26Lts, Trans 64Lts and finals 15Lts, good luck with your machine, great machine no computers or other crap on them, you will be well happy with it."
That story should have started 'Once upon a time'. Cat has always recommended Sae50 lube oil not motor oil in their machines in that time period. The specs call if the machine started above 32 degrees. Oil change at 1000 hours or 6 months. So I guess the question is how many hours are you gona run a year? Bad Bob
So are you saying 50w in transmission also or just the finals?
A TO-4 spec 30 SAE in transmission. Bad Bob
I dunno about elsewhere in the world, but here Cat TDTO 50 oil from the dealer is far cheaper then any other oils from the fuel/oil distributors. Although Cat do make a dedicated final drive oil which is more expensive FDAO 50/60. eg: https://www.monarchparts.com/caterpillar_fdao_oil I suppose when you think about it TDTO oils for basic gearboxes like a final drive may not be the best choice, as modern transmission oils can not be super slippery otherwise gearbox clutch packs would never work. We just run cat oils of whatever type required in everything that does not require specialised oil.
Thanks, That is what I have in the Transmission now. I also found in my manuals that CAT listed 140w for the finals above 32*F
I have NOT priced any oils from CAT so I can't say that isn't true here but I buy SINOPEC brand oils shipped free to my door at prices well below the outlets that carry most oils I use locally.
That story came from The Yesterdays Tractors forum, a poster AJ replied to me a while back with that answer to a fluid capacities question. I suspect he is in Australia but I'm not sure about that. I know when I ask questions on forums I'm going to get a wide range of answers, I'm looking for info when I ask so I don't make it a habit to call ANYONE wrong with the replies I get. There's usually a wide range of answers when ever questions are presented on any forum. Cat also lists 140w oil for the finals above 32*F for anyone that's interested. At 66 years old my machine will most likely not see 1000 hrs. of service in the rest of my working career, and the hours it does get will be summers.
I have only been doing this for 50 years and that is what Cat recommends for your tractor. If you look up Cat oils FADO 60 is for large trucks and scrapers finals a different set of gear types. Cat sells 85-140 GL for scraper and wheel tractors. But you can use whatever you want. You should be old enough to know about half of what you read on the internet is bull crap. Bad Bob
I got the 140 spec for my machine from the book Cat sold me that covers my serial # I hope it ain't all bull crap, the manuals cost me $280.00. if the spec has changed I would hope they would have updated the manuals. I'm not looking for a pizzing contest, I'm just saying what the book tells me. And no, I don't believe everything the internet says I'm more inclined to go with the product manuals.
Can you post a photo of the page that says 140wt? I've never heard of or seen that specification either.
Also wondering if the updated/supplemental pages are stuffed at the end of your manual?? Like you said, I’d like to think you would have gotten the most up to date info…
I am at the lake until Sunday but will be glad to post it when I get back home.
The Specs are listed on page 7 of the maintenance and lubrication chart with all the other lube specs.
Look on the back page of your book for the publish date bet it's late 70s. Bad Bob
I would think it would be closer to 1968 like the machine I'm working with. I'm not talking about today's machines.
Cat quit making 6Cs in 1976. Bad Bob
So I'm home and have snap a photo of the book and the spec grid for the final drive lube spec but don't know how to get the photos into a reply. Any help with that would be appreciated.
I circled the button in green…once you select up to four pics… then you pick thumbnail or full photo to post… I bet our admins have prefs on which you/we post.
Here are the photos the first is the manual front the second is the lube specs on page 7 let me know if you can see them or not.
As near as I can tell the book was printed 10/70 not sure of that but there isn't any other numbers in the back of the book.
Oil technology has come a long way since the book was printed. Since I just did a final drive up and now I know FD01 oil exists, and even though it is probably 70% more expensive then the other generic gear or TDTO oils. Next oil change I am going to use it. The oil is not even the cost of one bearing.
I know it probably won't apply in your QLD climate but just be aware that a lot of the newer generation machines that use FD-1/FDAO oils in rear ends are performance-limited by the on-board electronic systems until the oil warms up to over something like 65 DegC in an attempt to prevent issues regarding lack of lubrication when the oil is cold.
Thanks for posting the photo of the book.
I wonder how long it will be until the technology allows machines to have constant oil sampling done onboard.
The ideas have been around for awhile. There is a company advertising field analysis kits available now. https://dsi-ltd.com/product/mobil-serv-field-industrial-oil-analysis-kit/ Probably another set of fault codes someone would have to worry about. The thought is producing monitoring based on fuel usage and not just operational run time. Fuel usage and load factors are already being tracked and used in the valuation process for used machinery by some dealers and manufacturers.
We use 80w-90 in our gearboxes. Heavier weight oils might be "better", but you also need higher temperatures for them to flow as well. Up here in Canada, I'd only consider it as a summertime-only lubricant. The only place I've seen 140w gear oil being used is in Radicon worm gear reducers.
Thanks for chiming in, I take everyone's opinion seriously If I even thought about using the machine in the cooler/colder times of the year I would have went with a lighter synthetic oil. My tractor will only be used in the summer months, if I for some reason decide I'm going to use it below 32*degrees I'll dump it and go to a lighter grade, for now it's in there.
Personally, I don't think it's a bad choice, after all, for a splash-lubricated system like how these final drives are set up, I think everything will be getting plenty of oil. Just keep the operating properties of the oil in mind, and I think you will be fine.
One thing to keep in mind is that sometimes full-synthetic oil may leak out of seals easier than conventional oil, depending on the seal type, etc.