The contract "ran out" so they offered the workers approx. 50% of their current wages and heavily reduced benefits. http://www.thestar.com/business/art...ar-has-the-upper-hand-in-london-plant-lockout They brought the US workers to their knees in the 90's.....yet you keep buying their products:Banghead Nice company.
Some would say that Cat's stance on taking tough decisions early in the piece rather than let the business go down the pan (the Big Three US auto companies would be a typical example) is why they are an extremely successful company rather than an unsuccessful one .......... I wouldn't disagree.
What was not stated in the article was how much the Canadian workers were being paid in salary and benefits. What one should be reminded of while reading the article is that companies are not run for the benefit of the workers. Also that workers are only going to get paid at the rate they can leverage from their employer. Apparently Cat took away all the leverage these workers had and are able and willing to force a settlement. While it is unfortunate for those workers, that's life.
They were making 35 an hour canadian dollars, which probably seems high to the american crowd here,but our cost of living is somewhat higher than what you guys deal with...for example, a gallon of milk is around 6 bucks,a gallon of gas is around 5 bucks, a loaf of bread is 2-3 bucks and a house in London, where the plant is, is anywhere from 250-500,000 dollars. They had basic medical and dental coverage as well as a company matched pension. They were offered 16/hour and heavily reduced benefits and no pension. Meanwhile, CAT has posted record profits in the last 2 quarters and has healthhy orders for this plant. If "thats life" to you guys, much of the financial turmoil your country is experiencing makes a whole lot of sense now.....
Yeah, that about covers it. The sad thing is, it's a pretty safe bet that this is just a way for Cat to close the plant with little to no hassle. They know the workers can't settle for that and live on it easily, so they have the excuse to pull the plug.
Im pretty sure theres some tax laws that will hang them up pretty hard,cant confirm this though,,,,wonder if Harper will put his balls on the issue and Stand up for Canada for once....Kinda doubt it.
Nobody makes those guys show up for work. Don't like the pay go get a job somewhere else. If cat could make money paying those wages they would just makes good sence to keep you profit producing employes happy. As it was said before companies are there to make money not friend or other people a job. Just business nothing personal.
Everything thats produced and won't spoil has gone global ... World economy not where your at ..Look at the textile industry in this country . Gone .........Too many heavy hitters sayin they can make product some where else with less regulation ...Insurances , Liabillties , Enviroment It drives costs up to where no companies want to produce in these zones .... Sad to say its all over regulated here ..
Buckfever hit the nail on the head. If the workers don't like it they need to put on there big boy pants and go get a new job. I have had to do as well as plenty of other people.
Let's break this article down, using quotes from the writer: Ok, they had their pulse on the market. Back then they saw how bad it could get. No doubt as a result of the economy hitting a brick wall (read quote above - they saw it coming). (Bold added for emphasis) Well their crystal ball turned out to be right.:cool2 Looks to me (a layman as far as big corporate management goes) they did the right thing and made the necessary adjustments during the "Great Recession" to keep the company profitable and provide a dividend to their stockholders. This is the main priority of a Company, to survive and be profitable. Like as already been said and I reiterate, Company's are in business to make a profit. They are not their to provide jobs, insurance, pensions, etc for employees. I pay 100% of my healthcare insurance premiums and 100% of the copay, so I really don't feel for them having to pick up 25%. My premiums keep going up and the coverage keeps going down.
Hello there, The problem is everything is over valued, what companys need to know is they can price themselfs right out of the market. The drop in labor may help to lower the cost of a new machine, but at the same time the company over looks the private older machine owned by the small farmer and cannot afford parts from them to repair and keep running the older machines, That is a missed oppertunity to sell more parts, and keep the customer happy, at a price they can afford. If I ran Cat. I would run a discount on stuff that older models of wheel and track loaders need, to keep my customers, an army of machines run on everything behind , not just the dirt in front. old well, good luck. wosama
Very well thought out response, CM
CM Nicely stated, as usual. The failure to prepare and respond to changing economic conditions is one of the primary reasons for the failure of the automakers, and the resultant bailouts. I would rather see a well managed company lay off a portion of their employees and cut costs when needed than to wait until it is too late and have the whole company go under. When business picks back up, they will likely hire those laid off employees back. Hard to do that if you go under. Wosama Cat does have a program of less expensive parts for a wide variety of their older machines. I forget the name of it, but I have seen it promoted many times. Besides that, few other companies can match the support they give for long out of production machines. Parts are readily available for machines that the production run ended 40 or 50 years ago.
It's Cat Classic Parts, Jerry. They offer cheaper parts for machines that aren't used much, and still offer the original parts for more stuff than any manufacturer I know
I'll second that. I saw first-hand what the unions did to the mining & car industries in UK during the 60's/70's. IMO companies are not in business to provide jobs, pension schemes, or medical plans. They are in business to make money. If you want to make some money yourself check out the stock market, pick a well-managed company and invest in it ...... Any employee always has the opportunity to find a better job if they don't like the terms & conditions of the one they're in. I have been working now for more years than I care to remember and I have NEVER been out of a job unless I wanted to be that way.
Wow....Im a little surprised at some of the responses here. Lets make one thing clear though, this is not a union thing or a get rich thing. A 35/hour job up here is a middle class wage after taxes. This is about a corporation making its employees bleed. Yeah, I guess they all should go and get another job, right? After all, industry has been decimated in the local area an everybody is looking for locomotive assemblers. I reality the unemployment numbers are at 10-11% (and thats just the people actively looking for work,doesn't include those who have given up) and housing sales are dead flat in the area,so its not like you could just pack up and move on. By the way....how is the who;e "putting on your big boy pants" thing working out for the 10% of Americans put out by the recession? I understand that business are there to make money,but this is what the whole Occupy movement was about. You can be fair to your employees AND turn a profit. Many companies do. If your employer or customer came to you today and told you that they are cutting your pay in half or only paying half the bill....how many here would stand for it? How many could just pick up their families and move on to some other place/job?
Very Cloak & Dagger
Personally I'm surprised at your reaction TBH. Pretty much everyone else who has posted here is being pragmatic and taking the broad view. Comments regarding your other points would be: - 1. They (the employees) have a choice, more than one actually. The first step would be to tell their union leaders (who I can guarantee will not be sharing the employees' pain) to FRO. 2. The Occupy movement is total & utter horse**** IMO and will at the end of the day achieve nothing. 3. Name one ........ I mean one that's REALLY successful. 4. No I wouldn't stand for it, but then again I wouldn't have been on a unionised job in the first place. So yes, I would up sticks & move.
I hate when people say " what should I do move my whole familie". The answer is YES. between 100 and 200 years ago whole families packed up the few things they owned and got in a boat to cross an ocean with the hope of something better. So to move a day or two drives away for finacial secureity is laughable. Yes it will suck. Yes it will be hard. But nothing good comes easy. On a side note like nige said "I have never been out of a job unless I wanted to be that way". I know a few people that a very hard workers and very good at their jobs and could not be out of work even if they wanted to. Also they Occupy movement is a group of smelly overaged hippies how need to go occupy a desk somewhere.
It's one thing to disagree with them, but I don't get all the bashing on those workers. They are people who go to a job with a lunchbox everyday to feed their families, just like most of us here. I just don't get it. The media in the last 20 or so years has turned everything around so that the working guy is now viewed as a bad person the cause of most of society's problems. As far as moving far from home, where are those folks supposed to move to, China? Even though I never had to move far from home, I have worked far from home. Lucky for me I am adaptable because it's not fun when you don't talk with everyone else's accent, and you're the odd man out. I know sometimes it's necessary, but concern over it is not "laughable" as you mockingly say. I am sure a lot of those people have kids in school, that's not an easy move. When kids have to move to a strange place, it's not easy for them. They are the ones who will be hurt not the parents. As for the Occupy movement, when I was in NYC to see the Christmas Tree we took a little detour to Wall Street, to see the protests for ourselves, to make up our own minds. It was very orderly and clean, regardless of what you have heard in the media. The people there were not "smelly". Maybe you should find out both sides of the story before you belittle people you don't know.
First of all let's not let this thread get into a "Union vs Non-Union" thread, that just leads to bickering and argument and ultimately a closed thread. :cool2 This topic involves a business decision, whether right or wrong, only time will tell. It has been a very rough 4 years during the "Great Recession" for businesses and the general worker alike. Tough decisions were made, not because anyone wanted to make them, but the reality is we were forced to make them. We all have to make tough decisions during our short life here on Earth. When times are good, everything moves smoothly and when times are bad you have to do what you have to do to survive. It's the same whether you are a corporation or managing your personal household. When times get tough and cash flow slows down, you have to find ways to cut your spending to survive. It's a vicious cycle that compounds the misery until the economy turns around, but it's just that - a cycle. You live through it and survive to fight another day, with the wisdom of your hard earned eductation.
And we have to consider this; when decisions are made at this high of a corporate level, it's done with input from bean counters, spreadsheets, data that shows trends, bottom line, and projected sales/expenditures, then corporate executives mull over this info, compared to other production facilities, and they decide to shuffle things around based on info provided them. This is done from an office far disconnected from the lunch boxes that walk in/out of a plant on a daily basis. Not saying this is right/wrong, fair/unfair, or any other dynamic, but it is the norm for the corporate world. As has been stated, the objective of any business is to stay in business, whatever it takes. When one signs on to work for a corporate business, anything is subject to happen at any time.
This is not a union issue whatsoever (although some people have shown their leanings here quite obviously) its about how a company treats its employees,the very people that make it successful. There a re a few points about this plant that must be made clear: - there were/are no hard times at Electromotive..the plant was bustling with orders for years to come. -there was no bargaining in good faith on the employers part (so trying not to make this a union thing....) the employer offered a 55% cut in pay and benefits...take it or leave it and we will lock the doors,which they did. -Word on the street is that this action is intended to close the plant and move the operations to the States elsewhere, where they will pay even less to their employees....If the plant closes,the Ontario and Canadian governments are gonna be pretty pissed about the corporate tax relief this very company has been afforded.
1-choices are pretty slim in a region that has already recently lost a Ford plant, Sterling truck plant, Deere Ag plant and a Navistar plant....way to pick the tough bits out of my post though (BTW....the emplyer has no regard for the union at this point,so the union angle is moot at this point...leave it out of this) 2-The one you saw on Faux news wasn't the real deal....learn to not trust the media. 3- EA sports....look into this company,you will be shocked. Another is the one that I work for,which is also (gasp) unionized!!! 4- yeah,I get it....what do you do about your house though,sell it in a depressed market, take it with you brick by brick or just abandon it like many folks seemingly had to do in the States?
well, i do believe the cat loco plant is moving to indiana. indiana is going through a huge right to work battle right now. coincidence? i think not.
Same story I heard.....classy.
I'm sure people here feel some sympathy for the workers up in Canada that same as they would those here. Most on this forum seem to be independents working for themselves which probably explains a lot about our comments. Most of us are also a little older and have experienced these same ups and downs working for people and ourselves. Most of us have learned that working for someone else is putting your future in someone else's hands and unfortunately you have to live with the decisions of your employer or do something else. You are giving up self determination for a steady pay check and health insurance. By the way Caterpillar isn't the only company in the news for shutting down factories. Check out Boeing and the Wichita, Kansas plant closing to get a feel of what corporate America thinks of their commitments and employees. I have been told that something like 75% of americans were independent and didn't work for anyone else up until the 1940s. Now days 80% of us work for someone else. Perhaps the only way to beat the corporations is stop doing business with them and start building your own businesses.
UNIONS HELLO HELLO No one like to take a wage decrease.The problem is that we are on a world economy.That just the way it is.While wages mean alot it is the total cost of production that is a great factor.Keeping this at the right cost is a big factor in making or breaking a co. Cat is know fool.They know they can,t expect to pay nothing for a work force but they also know when wages and work rules make their cost to high its time to do something before it to late. Wake up unions we are on a world market.
And in a global market,you get what you pay for...otherwise you'd all be running those Chinese built machines.
Really? And this is really what it comes down to. Corporations claim they are only responsible to their shareholders. Caterpillar asks for and gets a bailout by the government (and gets it) while taking more of their manufacturing to China (and other places now). The “sheep were meant to be sheered” philosophy will always go to far because eventually some idiot will think “We can get all the eggs at once if we just kill the goose and take them”. To refer back to an earlier post, personally, I'm surprised you're surprised and I would say you should get ready for more surprises. 1.) The employees have a choice? The choice to find a job somewhere else doing the same thing for an employer that will get decimated by the guy he just left or stay and work for half the price? Japanese corporations wanted to take over the semi-conductor market in the 80's so they got government sponsorship (money) to “dump” (sell below cost) chips for years. There was a law against it (REGULATION) and they got fined but not before they took out bankrupted (“made them move”) many of the chip manufacturers that were in the business here. Then, of course, the price went back up. I'll take the regulation (even over-regulation) compared to the “snake in the grass” tactics of big corporations backed by government money). Yah, they paid a fine later. Much later. 2.) It's called civil disobedience and the right to protest and what they are protesting about is the “bought and paid for” laws that don't protect ALL the people. Privatize the profits and publicize the losses. Get the money out of politics and you will see changes not geared towards the big money. 3.) REALLY successful? Like REALLY big profits? Your right. But for some reason they say that small business is the backbone of employment. The “Mom and Pop” outfits that DON'T have CPA's or hire MBA's to develop a business plan that will decimate other business' not as well capitalized. Is that the freedom you are talking about? Because if it is, get ready for that big corporation called China to start stepping on your toes. Of course, by that time big money will have their stake in them (GE, Caterpillar) or start screaming for tariffs against an unfair playing field. Are tariffs regulation? But they won't use that word. Weren't the Commies our foes? 4.) I'm calling BS on this one. It's great to say it but it's another thing to do it. And for what? So some other guy can make another 10% profit and make the shareholders, minus the corporate perks and “fines for dumping”, that much more? People are starting to see the light about “how much is enough”. To a corporation, there is no limit and the only limits they know are called regulations. Henry Ford said “There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.” You can really create a great society doing that. He also said “The highest use of capital is not to make more money, but to make money do more for the betterment of life. I REALLY hope we get a few heroes back like that guy. And he was against unions because he felt they were inefficient; like many corporations IMO. Until then, I guess I'll try to find a job at McDonald's (which they say I'm over- qualified and too old for). I wonder why they haven't sent back a response on my application for Steve Jobs position? Hmmm. I'm sure you will tell me. Here I go stirring the pot again.
Very true but their is also alot of quality out in the world market.Also keep in mind most co. or ourselves look at the best price even when looking for quality. I am sure not the answer you like but again everyday life needs everyday value.I havent seen very many co.that are still around that don,t look at the bottom line.This keeps them in business and keep their employees in jobs.
Yes you should maybe 2 or 5 more jobs. You do what it take. There are lot of options rent out rooms in your house or your house and move out. Short sale the house. The 10% of Americans haven't put on there big boy pants for the most part thats why there where they are. If the gov was going to pay you not to work for 2 years how big of hurry would you be to get a job? No its a bunch of people that want something for nothing. They parked there butts in a public park sponging off the tax payers. I wouldn't stand for it any longer then I had to. If thats what I had to do YES.
I am just a ditch digger and not an expert on publicly traded corporations, but as I understand it: Major decisions about plant closures and layoff are made by the the executive team. The executive team is appointed by the board of directors. The board of directors is elected by the shareholders. The primary shareholders of Caterpillar are institutional investors, investment funds, and insurance companies. If you own mutual funds, have a 401K, have a SEP, have a union pension, have a government pension, have a private employer pension, or purchase insurance, chances are you are directly or indirectly an investor in Caterpillar. You expect the people that manage your pension plans and insurance to do so wisely so that there is money available to pay your retirement and insurance claims. They in turn invest the money in corporations such as Caterpillar with the expectation of a return in the form of a dividend or an appreciation of the stock price. Those elected to the board of directors and appointed to the executive team are tasked with making this happen. I don't know what part of all this makes corporations evil. I think the current bashing of corporations is mostly about the agenda of those who want to increase the power of government through higher taxes and more regulation. The occupy movement is merely a tool to help make this happen, in my opinion.
I think most people are looking at this, but not seeing what's really going on. This isn't a union issue, but a corporate greed issue. Cat is closing the London factory, that's life, that's business, and that's unavoidable. It's unfortunate, and as much as I'd love to see it stay put, it's not going to happen. Does this make me upset? Not really, it's life, and it's business. What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc. So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant. Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low. It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.
Here here. Cat is closing the plant so they can move south where teh govenment subsidies are better.... We all know there's a corporate welfare system in the states to try and create jobs. Don't knock the workers at a plant that are way more productive than they were a few years ago. It was a done deal long before the negotiations started. We've seen teh same thing happen at a lot of plants here inte h past. Lots listed already..... One that was missed. I used to have a highway tractor. The company I had it on with hauled a whole factory (Motor Wheel) from chatham ontario to Kentucky about 25 years ago because of corporate welfare.. there's nothing new under the sun. Volvo bought out Champion and pretty much did teh same thing with it.
This is not just a Cat thing, this is an ongoing problem through a lot of manufacturing industries. My father, all my brothers and myself had our first jobs at our local shipyard, it was a rite of passage for us. That shipyard is now gone and closed for years, and folks blame the Union, economy and other things, but the bottom line is this: You can buy a completed ship from China cheaper than you can buy the raw steel on the domestic market. Even the Government bought a ferry built overseas when they had domestic options. So what does this mean for domestic manufacturing? People shopping at Wal-Mart do not look for a "made in the USA/ Canada" tag, they are shopping for the cheapest option. Those cheaper products come from... China, Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, all places where there is poverty and millions of people trying to just feed themselves. Anyone who feels that someone who is affected by the Cat plant closure should "put on their big boy pants" do not understand the fight that has already been brought to our soil, and are ignorant of the realities that globalization brings with it. Does ANYONE in the USA or Canada think for a second they can compete with third world countries for wages and benefits? Looking forward, it's gonna get worse. Mexico can build a super port close to the US border (oh, say, in Punta Colonet), and create a super highway for imported goods from Asia, and easily truck them into the USA and Canada under NAFTA. By dropping protectionist laws, we have sold our manufacturing sectors to the cheapest bidder, and we can't compete. The folks making those products in Asia are not making a living wage, most of the ships crews carrying it are not getting rich, and now the long shoremen and truckers in the USA are the next on the chopping block as mexican alternatives step in and take their workload. Mexico is already making a lot of the "domestic" vehicles you drive. You are free to complain to the corporations, go ahead, call their 1-800 numbers... Most of them are connected to a person in India. We have sold our industries and services out to make them a bit cheaper, and screwed ourselves in the process. What can be done? Boycott any company that uses dirty tactics to shut down domestic facilities. Buy equipment from makers that look after their workers, and make it clear when you buy their stuff that you are buying it because it is made domestically. Look for the "Made in the USA/ Canada" tag, and spend the extra couple bucks for it. Lobby lawmakers to protect domestic operations. Don't invest in companies that move operations offshore. Protect your way of life, or compete with the third World for your wages. Those "dirty hippies" in the occupy movement might be a glimpse of our future if we do not start addressing the problems.
And just to add an addendum to this fine piece of logic, once you have destroyed your own economic base, to whom will your market your product or service? It is kind of ridiculous to see people defending the slaughter of their own economic base and calling it patriotism for the sake of corporations that take government assistance and use it to open up shop in another country. Wake up people. Or don't. You have that right and thank you, troyharnish, I think your synopsis was right on the money.
We are still on a world market,Co still have to make money and yes people also have to live.I doubt that Cat or any other co would shut down unless they felt their was not any way to work things out.
I agree with illiceman that *responsible* companies would not take drastic measures unless they felt backed into a corner, but companies are increasingly sending everything possible offshore, because it is now an accepted business practice, and it is accepted because society (while they did not like it), accepted it. The truly ugly side of globalization is exploitation. A lot of sweatshops are located in Vietnam under communist rule, and the conditions are appalling. The workers do not have a choice to speak out or demand better... Is there anyone reading this that is under the illusion that China has healthy working conditions and comprehensive occupational safety standards? I know of a pulp and paper mill in Canada that shut down paper production, and started sending a raw pulp product to Pakistan because the finishing process was too toxic to handle in North America. We demand a greener footprint from North American companies, but are perfectly OK with buying Chinese toddler toys with lead paint produced in factories that spew toxins into the same environment we share... So, rather than do it right domestically, we hide toxic processes and human rights violations in other countries, and we are somehow OK with it.
In the peoria area they have cut the wages in half 10 years ago. I have never worked for Cat , but when these workers earn less money it affects all of us. They tell me are local school has 40% of the children getting free lunches and many of the childrens parents are cat employees. So I feel that now as a taxpayer I am paying part of cat wages. I have 3 pieces of cat equipment, they will be my last. There parts or there equipment never got cheaper. So how did these lower wages help the average American?
In Muncie Indiana a new factory opened a few months ago building railroad locomotives this company is Cat owned. Todays Muncie newspaper told the story of Cats problems in Canada and more locomotive work will be coming into this area from a existing Canadian factory where workers refused to make wage cocessions. Sometimes you just gotta adjust you standard of living.
It is still a partly union issue. If it wasn't for those contracts they had maybe there wouldn't even be a plant in Indiana. And everyone would still have a job just making $25hr.
What you guys are saying about world markets makes sents to a point. But I think the reason companies go over seas is not for cheap wages but less regulations and a better tax code. I cann't think of one reason a co. would move to a third world nation for just cheap labor. Look at it like this. What would it cost a company like cat just to comply with our tax code. Not pay the tax just employ the people and services to be legal. And don't forget if it hasn't been made here you have to pay to bring it here. That cann't be cheap. On the point of corprate welfare, if you cann't survive if the free market you either change or fail. No do-overs. Make it easyer to operate a company in this country and we will have more work and job then we know what to do with.
A very good point.Wages are also not any more important than what kind of production you get for your hourly package you pay your workers. Alot of factors to look at for sure.
It doesn't bother me that Cat wants to go to China to make equipment there. It is their right. But when they want to close plants here to make equipment there, I hope the government sees the light and makes them keep Chinese Cat equipment in China. Parts and all. To compete, you want to give them government subsidies in the form of cheaper tax rates. I say they should have to pay more for putting workers here out of the economy. With your logic, the reason the cost of health insurance skyrocketed is because of the cost of an office visit to your doctor and that is not a fact, Jack.
Just some food for thought, Cat is opening several new facilities in the US: North Carolina: http://www.centralillinoisnewscente...-Caterpillar-Plant-Opens-in-NC-133966998.html California: http://www.1560wbys.com/index.php?o...y-plant-to-open&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=60 Texas: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3868218...build-manufacturing-plant-texas/#.Tw2en5jyGfR And probably the most interesting is that Cat is considering moving some production of mini-excavators and tracktype tractors from Japan to North America. Now North America could mean Mexico, Canada or the US but interesting none-the-less. http://www.daytondailynews.com/business/region-to-make-bid-for-new-caterpillar-plant-1283025.html Cat has also opened plants in China to make products for the Southeast Asia market, I don't know if they are planning on importing those machines to North America. I think Cat has found out what other companies have about manufacturing in China - there are a lot of problems with production, quality and most importantly intellectual property rights - China really has no patent protection. Couple those problems with high shipping costs and the money saved by lower wages doesn't make since when the numbers a finally added up. We have seen companies start to move their production back to North America and I predict this will only increase over the years. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/08/another-company-moves-production-back.html http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-01/11/content_14418729.htm http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht.../2016524160_inpersonfichter17.html?cmpid=2628 Contrary to popular belief, Chinese wages are raising, no doubt to the pressures of a growing middle class. This cannot exist in a vacuum - a growing middle class that wants a nicer house, cars, etc and massive amounts of cheap labor - something has got to give. When you have such a large working population, Beijing will have a balancing act.:cool2 The trend is called "Re-shoring" and it's a trend to watch.
They just found this out? When I grew up, we were raised to believe that communists were the scourge or the earth. They made their people believe things about "free" societies that were total lies. I was also taught that hard work and a determined attitude paid off. Being a bully and back-stabbing were not positive personality traits. Helping the little guy was admirable and considered a very "Christian" endeavor. Now you have sharks out there eating other sharks and somehow this is supposed to save the other fish? The sharks will get around to them, no doubt. Most corporations are money whores that don't want competition from little "Mom and Pop" companies but grab every state or federal subsidy they can get their hands on and have no problems dealing with previous "scourges" just to make a buck. Not a sterling recommendation for being a defender of freedom as far as I am concerned. "Trickle down" was never my idea of economic prosperity and the only reason they are setting up in No. Carolina and California (the over-regulated state?) is because of the give backs and subsidies that they hate to see trickle down too far (meaning the little guy). If a person (corporations have people status now) will do anything for money, they are not to be trusted. And I think, if anything, they are preparing for the backlash that "might" be coming. The vote is the one thing that has kept this country great, not corporations or capitalism.
I disagree. The vote simply changes who gets paid off by the lobbyists. USA capitalism is the machine that drives the world economy. Capitalism and chronyism are not one and the same. As long as their are lobbyists, there will be chronyism. If I expound any further it might look like I'm talking politics, so I'll leave it at that.
There's a book called "Poorly Made in China" written by an insider who used to work as a liason between Chinese manufacturing companies and foreign companies looking for lower cost production of their products. The companies would agree to make their product at an agreed upon price. Production would begin and gradually, they'd cut corners and substitute materials to bring the manufacturing costs down....not all at once, gradually. The process is called quality fade. Sooner or later, the parent company will notice that their product no longer looks like their product. They call the manufacturer and tell them that the product is not of adequate quality. They manufacturer in China replies saying that it costs too much to manufacture their product the way that they want it so they'll have to increase the price. The parent company has already closed their domestic manufacturing plant, sold or moved all equipment and fired all their workers....usually they pay up.
So its Cats fault that the gov. you elected has decided you are incapable of feeding your kids. Its not just lunch they get breakfast and and evening snack too in places even in the summer when school is out. I'm also sure Cats parts and equipment would be a lot cheaper now if they hadn't cut wages 10 years ago.
Whaaaaaat? How could you tell? Why would Cat ever lower its parts price because they lowered wages? It's more profit. The question is how much is enough, Mr. Gecko?
So why don't all Americans vote? If you don't vote isn't it just accepting the way things are and that's a lot of people who forgo their democratic right. It's compulsory to vote in Australia and that's not a bad thing in my book. AusDave
The sad part about some of our voters, they are recieving entitlements(40%) from the gov and they sure as h.ll don't want anything changed. One has to look who alot of them are and I'm not sure they should be allowed to vote. This is one of the problems here in the USA. One must not forget that Caterpillar is a large global Corp and one of the most successful in the world. They don't just do things for the sake of it. For example, GM and Chrysler, bail out and not paid back yet, Not Caterpillar and look at the reasons why! Great leadership and forsight!
How could you tell? Why would Cat ever lower its parts price because they lowered wages? It's more profit. The question is how much is enough, Mr. Gecko?[/QUOTE] no such thing as enough
"The Fed’s efforts to prop up the financial sector reached across a broad spectrum of the economy, benefiting stalwarts of American industry including General Electric and Caterpillar". Excerpt from Washington Post Dec. 2010. It's amazing what you can learn from the internet, if you try. And anyone I have ever met that received unemployment insurance payments (which we all pay into) was always looking for a way to get their job back. Maybe not a minimum wage job. Is that what you are saying? Someone who was working at a $60,000 yr job should take a minimum wage job instead of trying to find work at some other related field that might salvage whatever is left of what they worked all their life to build so they can say they have a job? While Wall St. and banks go right back to business as usual after taking government bailouts? Interesting. "The Fed launched emergency programs totaling $3.3 trillion in aid". Found that later in the article.
I've read over this thread somewhat and several things have come to mind and I'm sure I'll get shot for stating this but I'll do so anyhow, the first one is where does company profits equate into the company should pay better wages or anything else on someone els's behalf? I've missed something along the line but I don't feel or ever did if a prior employer made a buck I was anyhow entitled to any part of that dollar and can't seem to wrap myself around the idea that anyone is entitled to anything from anyone's profits, sounds to me like sour grapes and a lot of complaining on others part. If cat is somehow to blame for the gas price, or food price or transportation costs or even living costs you incur, but you are unwilling to move anywhere cheaper to live or find any other job, then I can't feel sorry for anyone, as for benefits being offered they are just that benefits and not entitlements, if the company can find someone else that will work for less and do the same job its still called a free market system and thats why, you have the freedom to chose your job and what you do with your life, at work and away from work and who you marry and how you live your life, its not cats or anyone's else's fault or responsibility to do anything on your behalf no matter what you think. Second if you've got it so bad and cats so terrible and disgusting and unfair and the list is almost endless of their faults, then start your own company and produce your own products, then your profits can and will be endless and you can employ everyone who needs a job and pay wages they feel is fair for you to pay and you can run your business anyhow they deem fit for you. If your thinking you can't do that, think again, its done everyday, I did just that and now run a considerable sized operation, I never did nor still do have any benefits paid on my behalf, I pay 100% of everything myself, if I want to make even more money I can figure out just how to do that and I'v never complained about someone who had it better than myself, I may have been envious but whatever they did to get to where they are is their business, if it were done legally and not by selling drugs or stealing something. The world is not a fair place to work or live, someone will always have it better or make more than you or have had a better break in life you didn't get, so get used to it, its not cats fault nor anyone else's either, if cat wants to pay 16 bucks an hour and your not going to work for that, then look elsewhere for a better job, if they were paying 40 bucks an hour and you took a job away from someone else would you be willing to give it up so the other guy could have it instead? If they had a 5 million dollar loss would you be willing to work for 10 bucks an hour to help them out? If you answered no aren't you somewhat selfish about yourself needing something more than they do? If you said no you'd not be willing to work for 10 per hour if they were losing money they why would them making profits have anything to do with what you feel you should get? Don't get me wrong I'm not a cat lover by any means, but they have survived without government bailouts unlike chrysler and gm and they do understand business and how to run one profitably and to produce products people want to buy and as long as those people can and will buy them and pay the price for them and the parts, they they'll probably be around for some time to come, if that takes closing plants and relocating them elsewhere to hire those willing to work for what they want to pay, then I don't feel they've done anything wrong, if your a casualty of that change, then maybe take your lumps and move on, and learn from the experience and remember maybe the next company won't survive paying 35 per hour plus benefits either and instead of striving for higher wages and negotiating with the company all the time, there might be someone out there thats happy to work for less and not a constant headache to the company and eventually not worth arguing with anymore, but thats just my opinion, if I'm wrong what did the company tell you or try to tell you for the lowering wages and less benefits being offered and maybe relocating the plant somewhere else?
There was a post that was deleted I will never tell someone when they make enough. Just like I don't want anyone to tell me when I have made enough. Mr. Gecko?
Well they sure and hell shouldn't live off all of us tax payers for 2 years while they "look". As for Wall St 2 wrongs don't make a right, right.
What places? I never heard of that.
Interesting thread and I whole heartedly agree with Randy88's assessment. Excellent post.
The "Mr Gecko" reference is from a movie called "Wall Street"
lol.....they dont let you know anything down there,do they?
Wait till the overseas companies start underbidding all the jobs AND bring their own labor with them. I'll bet the tune changes because it's always some other persons problem until it's on your doorstep. Look a little farther down the road. And Cat did take money from the Fed programs. And I don't care if they want to take their factory to some other state or country but I don't think it should be subsidized with my tax dollars and then tell me they should get a big tax break on top of it. So I guess it comes down to what you believe and though I doubt ANYTHING is totally made in the US, I am going to support the people and companies that support the country I live and work in. I am not going to wind up feeling like the chicken that just voted for Colonel Sanders. I would say support your own country and countrymen or pretty soon, you might not have one. I just hope people wake up to some facts of life before it's too late.
I must agree that it is unfortunate that Cat has reduced the wages of the workers. I certainly think that a free market system is the one that has worked best if you look at history. While it is unfortunate that the tide has changed and now wages are being reduced, let's not forget that the good times allowed the wages to increase and that Cat, and others, had to pay more to attract workers so that they could make the products and meet the demand of the market. Were the workers complaining then? Did they agree to work for less because they felt bad for the company? Of course not and who would blame them. It's cyclacle and right now we are on the down side of things. On the flip side, I worry that maybe corporate greed, lets not pretend that it does not exist, is short sighted. While corporations are making record profits now I'm afraid that they are destroying their market base. After all it is the demands of the masses that will fuel the corporate machine. The masses has to be able to buy (either directly or indirectly) what the corporations are producing. Unless these corporations are banking on the Chinese, or somewhere else, middle class to create the demand. This is entirely possible and it may signal the end of the US being a great nation. I also agree that we as consumers are short sighted. We are lementing the fact that everything is being made in China. We even complain about the poor quality. Yet we mindlessly treck, in droves, to places like Wal Mart (insert any one that is selling things from China) and give them a huge approval of their actions in the form massive amounts of MONEY. The cycle has begun and it will take something significant to change it. It has been said before, in this thread, that we need to speak up. Gathering in a park and crying foul will not get it done. Your voice will best be heard by where, and what, you spend your money on. Made in the USA was once more than just a catch phrase. Can you spend more for MIA? IMO our political system is broken too. I can rant all night but I think it's enough to say we need to make our politicians follow the same rules that they impose on us. Do you have what it takes to make the tough decisions? It's not too late. We just need to be willing to make the tough choices instead of pointing our fingers at others. Very though provoking post. Interesting to heear others thoughts as well.
Cutting edge, if we are so uninformed down here, where did cat get some government handout and bailout, with low interest loans to avoid bankruptcy, that we apparently missed, did this happen during chrysler and gm's bailout and we stupid americans never get told of it? They have downsized and closed some plants, and moved others to different companies, there is talk of moving their headquarters to a different state to have lower taxes, which in my opinion is a good business decision and I'd personally done it a long time ago but as for receiving millions in government bailout money I guess I was never told of this, when did it happen? As for made in the usa, I'll agree to that to a certain extent, but you need to remember a few small details, first one being cat, and since this thread is about cat and its abuse of the people and their unfair treatment and gouging of the people, is a global company that sells worldwide, just where do you equate that into being american made? or should they make everything in the usa and export it to every other country? or better still should every country's product be made there in that country? You need to keep in mind they are not going to have the exact same plant making the same product in every country to keep those people happy by being made in their country, unless you plan on adding onto the price tag tremendously and are prepared to pay that added price. Cat just like every other large company are doing things for simplicity and also price competitive, they deal globally and sell globally and also buy globally, so if they have a need for dozers in anther country its cheaper and easier to make them in a few key plants and ship them around the world, same for excavators and everything else they make in their product line, now they also put plants in the same proximity as to the end user or an export port and watch trends in sales and such things, now I understand if all you've ever done is draw a paycheck and never actually managed anything before larger than a household this might be totally foreign to you but things are done for a reason and yes profits do drive them, shareholders expect profits or else stock falls and bad things happen to that company. The next thing you and everyone else needs to remember is profits drove them into buying or putting up the plant your discussing right now in this thread and I'm sure cats decision to put it there originally wasn't hashed over and I'll also bet not many were complaining about cat at that time when hiring was done at that plant, so I'm not seeing why anyone should be crying in their beer cat wants to pay less now or reduce wages and compensation now. If your not agreeing with them all the workers can go together and buy the plant from cat and go into manufacturing themselves, I'm sure shortly the plant will be for sale anyhow at the rate this is going. The hardest thing to accept is the following fact I'll toss out there, companies are not wanting to deal with "problem" plants, its a lot simpler to just close them and move onto an easier place to deal with, there are plenty of places around the world that would be excited to work for 15 bucks an hour and probably do a better job on top of it all, and appreciate the company being there, not complaining to anyone that will listen to them about how bad of a company they are how much too much money they make and how the workers are entitled to part of it or most of it and "need" to meet workers demands of higher wages and compensation. If you think that'll stop or slow down anytime soon I'm afraid your going to be sorrowfully mistaken, its only going to become a more common practice around the world. The next part of that statement is this, so unless you forgot it somewhere along the line I'll remind you of it now, workers and plants are "replaceable" yes that's right, your job can and will be replaced everyday, they do it on a small basis or a large basis and will continue to do that till the end of time and its not going to change anytime soon, any employee that causes them more grief than the work they do is going to be looking for a different job, and its not just cat, everyone does it, just because they are a larger company means nothing, you might think, since they are a larger traded company that you know what profits they make, since they are posted by law for traded companies, they should share that profit but small companies feel the same way. A worker is hired to do a job, they are paid to make them money and a lot of it in most cases and when they no longer make them money they'll be replaced, or when they cause more grief than they are worth they'll also be replaced, now when an entire plant causes the company more grief than its worth, its called a plant closing and relocation of the plant elsewhere. What your talking in this thread is employee vs. management, its not a union deal at all, but more of an employee thing and yes everything changes in life and if things were done a certain way even 10 years ago, things do change and companies are tired of constantly having to negotiate wages and workers compensation or face a strike or plant shut down or production delays or anything like that, times are changing and so will negotiating by workers. In case you've been asleep the last few decades and didn't pay attention to whats going on, I"ll shed some light on this for you, 35 bucks an hour is in the past for workers in your plant, they are offering 15 bucks an hour and benefits are being cut, I'd think maybe instead of bashing them everywhere look for a different job, its not going to long and the plant will be shut anyhow, they are tired of dealing with you and already have a backup plan when workers won't take less, worldwide, people will view this as follows, workers in canada won't accept the wages and benefits offered and the plant was relocated to a place where workers were not only wiling but excited to work for the wages offered. What does this mean to you, the world will view you as unwilling to work for a fair wage, and also your advertising to other companies what will happen to them if they attempt to put a plant in your area and how you treat them once they are there, if you don't believe me keep it up and pay attention to what happens in the near and distant future. I"m not sure how long the plant was there or what wages were when the plant opened along with benefits and really don't care, but I'm guessing thats soon to be in the past as the plant moves elsewhere and frankly don't blame them one bit, I"m surprised they were there as long as they were, labor might be strong and mighty and for some things have valid points, but in the newer safer standards set by the governments in most countries, there's little need to negotiate with labor anymore, they are and always have been replaceable, whats happening now is more of a global thing verses a isolated thing like firing troublemakers within a work shift or within a plant. Now if anyone was asleep in the past cat also fired or laid off white collar jobs lately, not just plant workers, but the next level up as well, so nobody is immune to worker layoff, its getting to be more of a job performance thing and we'll see it more as time goes by.
Keep guessing Everybody has their opinion. Glad to see the line spelled out so clearly because how some define "fair wage" obviously is not. Take what you can get and like it. Hah! Keep guessing. Why did the economic crisis happen? “a GMM estimator with an ensuring J-test is a consistent econometric method...” or “the individual companies sensitivity to interest rate or varies dramatically from significant positive for investment grade names to significant negative for speculative grade names...” or “several empirical studies of structural models based on CDS (credit default swap) data...”. There are people that understand the language of economics but when they can't even tell you why this happened or who got so greedy that they couldn't care about wrecking the “accepted behavior” that we ALL agree to live under (by voting), I start to question the “regulations”. Could it have been averted? What can we do to keep it from happening again? It's like going to a job and saying “it will take me a day to dig this hole”. Then you hit rock and things slow to a crawl but nobody asks why it happened. Do they just say “that's the way it is”?. “Yah, didn't see that one coming”. “What's a soils test?” "Don't worry, be happy". Unacceptable. As Eddie Murphy said, "I ain't going for no banana in my tail pipe." And if you didn't know Cat took a “bailout”, I understand perfectly. Most of the lawmakers didn't even know what the Fed was doing. No transparency there. Transparency is a four letter work in some circles. It's like the way they decided to change how they calculate unemployment figures in 1991, if I remember correctly (IIRC). If they are unemployed over a year, we consider them unemployable and take them off the list. WOW! The unemployment figures dropped overnight, until you look at why. If you don't want to admit that there is corporate welfare, I doubt I will be able to make the case here but when things stop adding up, I don't stick my head in the sand and say “That's just the system. Can't fight city hall”. This industry didn't fall apart by accident. And I'm not going to "move on".
CAT being what it is makes decisions that none of us will ever fully know of because they are a private entity accountable to the stockholders, THEY, know how and why and even vote on what decisions are made in many cases. What we are scraping on here subject wise is the huge number of cutbacks, not just with CAT, we are seeing this in MANY areas of the infrastructure lately. Here's a little example if anybody cares too think about it... All this blah blah blah about stimulus money being shot into the economy has gone on most of our lives, and, prior to this last blah blah blah more stimulus money blah blah, usually it meant balls to the wall work until the money ran out. Well from what I've seen this last blast of stimulus the current administration promised hasn't turned into the glut of work we were accustomed too...it just seems like it never really took off...agree? disagree? Well, from what I've been told from different depts who procure money from the feds for state and county/municipal work is that feds have a fair amount of money set aside for alot of jobs to be done but that they are NOT releasing it all at once because of the amount of corruption involved in PRIOR stimulus injections....all over this wonderful country there are plenty of holes with lots of money in them that NEVER got used or filled in.....This administration is purposely releasing stimulus funds at a much slower rate for a purpose....same as CAT is paying people lower wages so they do NOT have to open a plant in Burma where they can pay a SKILLED person a LOWER wage to do a job that might even result in a BETTER product OR result in buying higher grades of steel which is more expensive and just simply letting the rope go as far as workers wages.... hm?
I find this clip from a TV show extremely illuminating regarding the world economic crash of 2008, especially as it was actually broadcast over a year BEFORE the crash actually happened .............. how did the writers of this show accurately predict what was coming when apparently all the combined genius of the financial world didn't..? http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/187.html
Great clip-how true
Has everyone read the above post? This is what's happening. In reading some of the following posts its obvious people are missing the point While I don't side with the the workers in Ontario I definitely won't be asking you for a job. Employees are only at a company to make them money but a person kills employee morale the minute he starts making them feel like it. A few corrections. 1. This was NOT a problem plant. This plant was producing a reliable product that was giving Cat's own products a run for their money. 2. Any wage cut hurts. Whether you make a million and suddenly only get half or whether you make 20/hr and then get cut to 10/hr. 3. Your statement about the manufacturing industry avoiding areas of apparent labour unrest is not entirely true. Skilled trades (which was most of this plants crew) aren't in an over abundance and training isn't overnight. Unskilled are easily replaceable and in essence are disposable. 4. Yes profits drove them into buying this plant but I don't believe it was the profits of THIS plant per se. This plant was putting out a good product that competed with Cat's own. It might have also been the desire to amalgamate their plants after they had more of a corner on the market. 5. The way the skilled trades market is in Canada right now and for sure if those workers wanted to come to Western Canada only a suicidal company would try pulling the stunt that Cat did. Note Alco's post. In reality Cat is only wrong on ONE point and Alco explained it wonderfully.
In a nutshell, Nixon closed the gold window... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock
Abscraperguy, your analysis of the situation is fine, I can only disagree with you on several issues here, the first one being, and since most out there have forgot this, including management [company owners] and expecially employee's is the simple fact, everyone is expendable, except one in any business equation and thats the customer, without him there is no company or employee's, during the 80's most business's forgot this and allmost paid with their companies from this simple truth. I as a business owner and also expendable, life will go on fine without me if I were to die tonight in my sleep, as would any business if it were to happen to you, we are in all essence expendable and replaceable, hard may it be to admit sometimes, but its true, my entire business can and will be replaced overnight if I didn't compete in the markets as we know them today, if I'm undercut on bids, if people don't like my work, if I do poor quality work, whatever the case its called life and maybe its time some out there accept that and learn to deal with it. Now as for cat and their dealings, either you have never had to wonder where tomorrows lunch came from ever in life or had to actually go out and compete in the market place for much of anything, but cat's done nothing wrong, they had a plant making a product they bought, the entire thing, lock stock and barrel, if they wanted to expand it and add 200,000 workers at the existing facility its their right to do so, if they want to move it elsewhere, they certainly can do that as well, if the plant was for sale and the employee's didn't want to buy it, then I can't feel sorry one bit for them, if they wanted to but were outbid on the deal, then for maybe a minute I'd feel sorry for them because they lost, if they never attempted to buy which it sounds llike they didn't, then why the complaining now and bad mouthing cat, any company that would have bought it would do the same thing. I understand you feel you have great company and people and a wonderful location etc, etc, etc. but its business and once the company is bought, its theirs to do with as they wish, to them it was a problem plant, if you choose to not accept that, so be it, others can and will see it for what it is, they either had wage issues, government issues, transportation issues, or just plain in the past had prior owner issues and had an grudge to bear, whatever, they had a problem with the plant and its employee's, and its how the world will view it as well weather you like it or not or will ever accept it, thats your problem. If any other company would have bought it, things would be going about the same, these companies deal globally, and what that equates to you and your plant is this, you now will compete on a global market, if wages are about 15-20 dollars globally without benefits, then so be it, if your not willing to take it someone out there is, is it fair to you ................. no, but its what you should have seen coming when cat or anyone else was dealing on the plant, they owe it to "their" company to get the best deal possible, remember, the plant wasn't given to them they paid top dollar for it, and if they chose to eliminate competition by buying it and closing it, they can do so because they now own it, no different than your own house or vehicle, if you choose to neglect them and not take care of them its "your" right to be able to do that or if you want to spend endlessly on either you can do that as well, it comes with ownership and thats why companies buy plants, equipment, patents, or anything else is to control them and what they are legally able to do with them. As for being underhanded and sleezy about handling it, that might be your view, but most out there will disagree with you, first off, why are you mad at cat? because they stopped your gravey train and easy life? why not be upset with the sellers, they in essense sold you all out for the biggest buck?? They didn't offer it to the employee's to buy or set it up so they employee's could buy it, they never explained what they knew was coming for you and your frieinds, they in essence were the sleezy underhanded ones you should be mad at, not cat and thats how everyone else outside your world will view it weather you can see that or accept that, its true. They could have sold it in "your" best interst but chose not to, they could have some of these things in the contract when it was sold but chose not to, it would hurt their sales of their plant and they knew it, so whats the beef with cat about? Either you''ve been fed some line of bull by them or the employee's are about as ignorant as they come as far as knowing anything about business today in the real world, I'm not sure which, but if you were led to believe life was going to not only continue the same or get better, which is what I'm sure was fed to you by the late owners, you were gullable to believe it, so where is it cats fault? Did they come in and guarantee everyone there to not only keep their job but receive a pay raise and put that in writing? They may have come to speak and what they said may have sounded good but did they sit you down to have a one on one guarantee.................... no because your expendable and replaceable in the world wide market of business....................... is this sinking in anytime soon, if not in the upcoming years it might, but doubtfull, because after all, your skilled labor and no one can replace you right? You spent years to train and have a house payment to make and kids to raise and hopes and dreams of a life you once lived, yea, your the only one who has those, so your special and irreplaceable. If this offends you so be it, I have the tendance to tell it like it is, and as for ever working for me, its not going to happen, you can't seem to grasp your place in llife and only those that can will work for me, they are not special either, neither am I, nor my business, we are all replaceable and need to compete for our livelihood and those that work for me understand this and can cope, its got nothing to do with moral or anything else, they are workers who do a good job and perform that job to high standards or they know they will be replaced, they are a valuable asset to me and my company and are told that, but also know if they slip anywhere they will be replaced, if that makes me a bad boss, so be it, at least I never told them life would continue like it is or get better if I were to selll out my business to someone, anyone else, because I know its not true, thats what my employee's get, the truth, so look for work elsewhere, we have no jobs for you here. As for cat being underhanded and sleezy, we'll wait to hear what charges they are up on and face, I'm sure it'll be in the papers everywhere, until then I'm thinking they are within the law, now nowhere have I seen whats become of the late owners? you know the acutal sleezy underhanded ones, the ones you have worked for and hired all those at that plant and gave them thier hopes and dreams and a wage thats above the global market, yea those, that apparently couldn't hang onto thier business and sold it out........................... I'm wondering if they couldnt compete globally? I'm thinking maybe they were paying too high of wages, or had issues with either financially, worker related, or costs were too high, or had managment issues that led to having too high of a priced product and others were undercutting them in the open markets, maybe it was transportation costs or steel costs........................ well we'll really never know anything of actually what caused the sale, only what the workers were told, but from past history, they might have been told the "whole" truth so why believe them now after the fact as to why they didn't keep the plant and keep making the billons each year the workers obviously made them every year, I'm sure it was so profitable of a plant the banks in canada couldn't handle all the deposits from the profit every year and thats why it was sold to the highest bidder for the most dollars, it had nothing to do with greed or a need for the almighty buck, thank god your prior owners were ammune from that problem and they did it in the interst of their loyal employee's who gave them so much over the years they felt they needed to give back to them at the end, yea its cats fault, keep dreaming.
Give you an example of labor costs. In the middle 70's cat mfg the 910, 931, and D3. They cast everyting here in the USA and shipped it to Japan and had it all assembled and then shipped back here. But what wasn't made public was the cost savings. I don't remember exactly but it was around $1,800 to $2,000 per machine. The machine was around $20,000 U.S. or something like that. Been awhile since I thought about this. Cat did this to be competetive with the other small line stuff that was starting to be mfg. around the world and this in turn help keep them in the small line business. One must remember that they are not only a North America company, but a world wide company. Cat has done this world wide.Just like going to China and building a plant! Hey to you want a share of the market or not? We should be lucky that they even keep world Hdqtrs in Peoria! Gosh people, it's a changing world.
Randy 88 you are missing the point. Or are you a spokes person for Cat and purposely putting a spin on it? Read Alco's post again. You are not catching on. The way Cat is doing this is underhanded and sleazy but you'll never read about it because it is be done in a way that is technically above reproach. Your post makes me ready to blow a gasket. If it was the truth it would be one thing but to twist things to your own liking and then lecture on them is low (just like Cat LOL). First of all I don't work for Cat and don't know anyone who worked in this plant. Your constant insinuations of never having to leave a job or having lost one are entirely false. I have packed up and moved thousands of miles away for a supposed good job and after being there 3 days found out it wasn't. Did I just lay down and die? In that case I stuck it out and sometime later it after I had risen through the ranks it was more palatable. Workers are disposable but you might get more out of yours if you treated them like humans. I'm not talking about being really sweet to them, I'm talking about BASIC respect. And as far as working for you I have had more job offers than I can do with it. Ok I'm getting off track here too. The only issue here is what alco said. What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc. So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant. Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low. It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.
Is that a Canadian Law Abscraperguy? That CAT would be required to pay severance if the plant closes? I know that if the company I worked for went belly up or decided to move to a different state or even a different country I wouldn't expect a severance package, nor would they be required to give me one.
Sell out your beliefs for a few dollars more. The shareholders don't make a damn thing but they are the excuse you use for unfair trade practices. And corporations are not great "free enterprisers" you make them out to be. They want to eliminate competition. They want the whole pie. MONEY IS THEIR GOD! At least, the way it's being described here. Randy88 said "its got nothing to do with moral or anything else". Exactly. Don't expect them to abide by accepted norms of behavior. And the shareholders are the excuse? That's why there is no transparency. There would be a riot tomorrow if they knew all the things they are into and how little they care about anything except profits. The gold standard? We went off that so that globalization could happen. You don't want a countries value tied to anything as real as gold. You can't manipulate how much gold you have. Re-invent myself? Yah, sure. I have. But reading some of these articles, some people don't want healthy competition when it lands on their doorstep. Look at the steel industry. And they sure as hell tried it with US automakers. Why? Cut the dead weight; legacy costs (pensioners). Ooh, regulation (laws). There is that dirty word again. They don't want little guys innovating or having lower overhead or treating their workers better because they know them on a personal basis. That would be so...anti-corporate. They have to support their corporate structure. It's monkey-see, monkey-do. Innovation does not come from within corporate ranks. Just like that "you're not special" philosophy' This crap about "That's just the way it is" is changing and no matter how you fight it, the pendulum will always swing the other way. Especially when the system gets so abused as it has been lately.
Theres a few issues with the province of Ontario that may have caused CAT to make these actions, I would never defend corporate procedures to any degree but it is what it is....Canada is a much different animal than America in many respects. I had a friend that worked at the Brampton plant spray painting new equipment back in the 80's, his hourly was close to $30. That was a staggering amount of money per hour back then and I do not think the rates went up much over the years to match inflation there in Ontario.
Ok abscraperguy, I don't work for cat either, never have and don't own any cat equipment any more, first off, I don't think I'm not the one missing the big picture here, the plant was sold along with the business, we seem to agree on that issue. As for being sleezy, its not sleezy, its business and how its done today, weather we agree its good bad or whatever, they are following the law, any company would do the same thing, if people get hurt, they are how shall we say collateral damage, cat bought the business and can do with it as they wish, which they are doing, they never, and I assume that because they usually never do negotiage with the prior employee's, because they don't have to by law, until after they buy the plant. One persons idea of sleezy and underhanded is anothers good business decions, but negotiations could have taken place by the prior owners on "behalf" of the then current employee's, which by all reading done, didn't take place, it usually never does except in instances where the selling company thinks enough of its employee's to put stipulations in the contract to protect them, which limits the saleability of the plant and the amount they'd get for it, I"m not sure if we agree on this or not, but usually how its done. I understand you think they are sidestepping the law by not paying the severace to the workers, but in essence the former owner could have done this as well, but was cheaper for him not to do so, so who's sleezier here on the deal, the sellers or the buyers? I have no doubt that cats working to get out of paying any of them anything, but remember any other company buying it would basically do the same thing, so take it for whats its worth. The sellers could have also not only protected the workers and those jobs, but also the revenue for the city and or providence, which they didin't do either or chose not to do, its got nothing to do with unions or nonunions, its a business decision, plain and simple, cat hasn't broke any laws, they are obeying them, I'd guess to the letter of the law, they really don't want bad publicity anywhere about wrong dealings, no company today does, so in the end, the plant will probably be shut down and eliminated, its a tragic deal for those going through it, and sad to see it happen, but it does happen every day, all over the world. They can use any excuse they want to shut down the plant, at any time, its just a job and those that work there really can't and don't have the right to tell them what to do, they can negotiate, if the company is willing, but by the sounds of this, they are not, they probably had things planned out from day one of negotiations, anybody would when this many dollars are at stake. So in summing this up, your thinking they are using sleezy tactics to avoid paying the workers their due compensation, I get that, no problem on my end, the problem seems to lie in the idea that legally they don't have to do that, well then press to have the law rewritten because until then its done all the time, I've had family go throught the same thing, but with a printing company, with plant buying and closures and its prefectly legal and done, sleezy is I guess anyone's idea of the term, you seem to think its cats being sleezy, I'm thinking its the sellers who were scrupulous and underhanded sleeving the whole area and its people in the end, so I guess we'll differ on opinons there, but I'd tend to say, worldwide most will view it my way vs. yours because its way more common than you think and happens all the time, apparently further from home than you hear about. The outcome is probably going to be the same in the end, doors locked, jobs gone and it will soon fade into memory of those left behind, not sure if we agree on this or not. Now for being low, did cat run the plant and if so how long before the terms came about? If it was long enough to basically shut the place down, where does it equate into the work force being cats, because they bought the business? This can take seveal years to achieve and hash out the paperwork, I'd tend to say that cat never felt they were "their" workers and thus didn't owe them anything, the ones that actually owed them was the sellers, not the buyers, who I'd guess bailed on them in the end, uness there's more to the story than we are being told, so again, we get to differ on who's doing anything underhanded and sleezy. As for causing a stike by offering lower wages, thats one opinion, what would happen if the workers took the offer?? Would the plant remain open? Now I'll toss this out there to think about, what would have happened if cat offered more in wages than the prior owners? Would it be viewed then as the prior owners being sleezy and holding out on the workers? If your thinking the only issue here is what alco stated, maybe think again, these deals are complex and detailed and I'd venture a guess maybe a lot is not being thought about by many, there are reasons why the plant was sold, reasons why the workers were not protected by the sellers, who bought it and why, what they intended to do with it once bought and the list is endless, if you want to view it as cat's screwing the workers, go for it, in the end the customers of cat will view the details to see if they wish to continue doing business with them or not and thats all that really matters, because in the end the customers pay all the bills, not just labors, but also managements and cat along with all the rest have figured out how not to offend customers and turn off the dollars that feed them and I'd venture to say, they have my vote and I'd look harder to buy cat products after this because they do run a "business" and are finally taking care of business which has been neglected for decades. I could write a new thread on that alone, but it might be more than some can handle, expecially labor. Now for me being a war monger and hard butt, I"ll not disagree with that one bit, first off to know and understand one's place in the business equation isn't bad, and if this offends you, sorry, but to me there is only one important equation to any sucessfull business and thats the "CUSTOMER" and all the rest are replaceable, he pays the bills, pays the wages, buys the stuff any company needs to operate and to me he is the king, not labor or even management because without him, the customer, the rest doesn't exist. My workers/help are made aware of this constantly and know where they stand in the equation and give the customer the respect he deserves along with the service he or she deserves, now I call it like I see it and make no bones about it, I am replaceable and my business is as well if the customer goes elswhere, so is my help, we are all basically equal on that topic. On the topic of worker respect, we could deal with that one some too, along with respect coming from the workers back to managment, it works both ways, but apparently my employee's feel they get respect or they'd have left a long time ago. As for moral and whatever else you want to discuss, I'm not sure how canada works but around here we don't tippy toe around a subject, we deal with it, and until some other revenue comes along, the customer will be the single most important thing there is, no matter what your told there. As for working for me, I don't advertise for help they come to me, as for moving and constantly looking for work, I've been self employee'd now for over 30 years and still in business, so maybe I have done a thing or two right over the years, that and business is growing in these economic times. Take it for what its worth, but my opinon is thats cats done nothing wrong and until you or someone else submits something to disprove it, my opinion stands as stated, but I also believe there are a whole lot of issues here other than the one you can't seem to get past or see beyond. Sorry to come across as lecturing and condesending, I don't work for cat or any other company, never have, but I do understand business and how things are done, in the past and present and how thing have changed around the world somewhat and how it affects me and my business and am always looking for ways to become more efficient and profitable to reamin in business for another 30 plus years and no I don't plan on employing my current employee's for life, I tell them that day one, I expect them to move onto bigger and better things or to own thier own business someday, they deserve it and should have it and strive for them to achieve just that, you call it lack of respect, I call it tough love and educating them on life and how the world works, guess we'll differ on that as well, maybe some just need coddling a lot more than others is all, not sure which, but don't blow a gasket over this, we're only chatting about someone else's problems and not about our own, if you'd like we could chat about our own for a while, do you have any kids to complain about, if not I'll lend you some teenager girls but that might be somewhat off topic.
Unfortunately in Ontario with all their regulation it is like that. If there wasn't a law like it, people wouldn't make a big deal. Do I hate regulation? You bet. But NO company is above the law. That is plain crazy for a wage. Those wages alone are enough for me to wonder how any plant can make money. When I worked for wages I never came anywhere near that kind of wage. In fact the best job I ever had was one that paid very little above minimum wage. The work was boring (blowing attic insulation) but the boss was awesome and treated his employees like humans. If everyone was like him there would be no unions which would suit me fine. Randy88 I give up. I think neither of us entirely understand the other. When reading your posts and ignoring your jabs I mostly agree with what you say. Although I'm not grey haired I grew up around my Dad's business, have been other business' employees, have been manager, and business owner so I don't speak as an uninformed layman. Unfortunately here in Canada, and specifically provinces like Ontario, are heavily regulated and it drags down the mfg industry. Lest you think that I am pro-union guess again. I grew up in a province that the unions just about wrecked. When I look at the the bad stuff that's happened I wouldn't want to go through it again but its opened up opportunities that wouldn't have come along otherwise. What you tell your employees about moving on I don't call that disrespect. If it's how you feel that fine. Some businesses are more inclined to keep employees long term in order to save training costs but it might take more coddling. Skilled trades pays higher wages and better wages than McDonalds for a reason. They don't want a %200 turnover. As far as teenage daughters thanks for your offer but I have one well on the way. Ya kids, now that's a whole new story altogether..
In the Peoria Journal Star today they said Caterpillar is getting employee training paid for by the tax payers in North Carolina. CEO of Cat was complaining about high corp.taxes in USA, now he knows why. They also were protesting there real estate taxes in the Peoria area. It said in the paper they were pulling there protest.
well at least they are making some money http://finance.yahoo.com/news/caterpillar-profit-surges-past-expectations-130852109.html
Guess it pays to screw over your work force.
Yes sir, I see and feel it every time I buy parts. Even when I avoid their parts, like the latest absolutely positively ridiculous price of $900 for an oil cooler end cap. I'm talking about the end cap, they called it a bonnet, about 5" round and 3/8" thick with 5 bolt holes in it. I could build 250 of them in a day in my shop with a drill press and a welder. Sure glad to see they made some money for their stockholders though.
Just wanted to point out a few facts of the case that have been overlooked. 1. Cat purchased EMD in Aug 2010. Cat did not negotiate the current wage rates at London, EMD did under GM and Berkshire, prior to being acquired by Cat. Wage negotiations between Caterpillar and the CAW employee's began not long after the purchase. 2 The decision to slash labor costs comes from the fact that the Canadian dollar has reached parity with the U.S. dollar, meaning now wage rates between the U.S. and Canada are closer to apples to apples than apples to oranges. 3. Labor costs at the London plant are roughly double what the U.S. workers make in LaGrange, IL. 4. Caterpillar as a global company has made record profits. There is no breakdown to tell what the profitability of the London, Ont plant is. Assumptions are made that because Caterpillar is booming globally that the London plant is booming as well. This is not necessarily true. 5. Caterpillar is using the current public perception that unions are overpaid compared to average employees as a leverage tool. The recent calls of the Ontario Federation of Labor for legislation to ban the use of replacement workers during strikes and lockouts are further enhancing that perception, and cannot be good for the Ontario manufacturing sector in the future if adopted or even seriously considered. 6. EMD has been losing market share over the last few years, and orders were declining. EMD laid off 600 employees in 2009 (out of 900) before recalling some back. There are around 450 employees currently on strike at the location, which leads me to believe that orders are still not streaming in. Businesses have a basic goal to make money; no more, no less. As has been stated before, money is the only god of a business. The CAW and the employees at London have a major dilemma, either bow to Cat's demands or remain on strike and possibly see those jobs leave. Cat is a huge company that got that way by being headstrong and determined. And don't doubt for a second that the U.S. gov't as well as local and state gov'ts aren't trying hard to entice Cat to expand production on U.S. soil. Below is a copy of the proposed contract by Cat to the CAW workers at the London, Ont plant. http://www.emcupdate.ca/wp-content/uploads/Employee-Letter-and-Summary-Dec-27-2011.pdf
I think the main point being overlooked in all of this, is that those jobs are already gone. Cat has offered what they have in order to force a labour dispute, allowing them to save money while closing the plant.
The short answer is the advent of the sub-prime loan. The long answer is cheap and easy credit. Credit became much more accessible for every class of citizen, business and government, and caused many to become overextended and to start missing payments. This increasing debt led to escalating losses to lenders, which led to financial institutions facing insolvency/bankruptcy. At this point Lehman Bros. came into play. The dam was showing cracks and pouring water, but when Lehman Bros failed everyone saw how dangerous the situation really was and the dam exploded. This led to rapidly increased loan standards which resulted in a sudden credit tightening event (read that as: no more loans or lines of credit) that really lowered the boom on those who were already overextended, and pushed others into being overextended without the access to credit that they were accustomed to. This is why TARP was put into effect, to pump money back into the credit markets to get lending and credit lines going again. The crisis began with the housing markets. Housing prices and investment began rapidly increasing which led to the construction industry to rapidly expand which required equipment manufacturers to rapidly expand production. When the housing bubble began to pop in 2007 the construction industry experienced a dramatic downturn that caught many businesses and investors by surprise, which led to many business failures that left equipment manufacturers with a sudden glut of used equipment returned to them, no market to sell them in for decent prices, and no demand for new equipment. Hope this helps some.
Not necessarily. If the London plant provides a strong return on investment then Cat would more than likely leave the plant operational. The CAW is promoting the "Cat wants to move the plant" idea. This idea may become a self-fulfilling prophecy in the long run, according to the actions of the workers. I'm not blaming the union workers for the current stalemate, I would be ticked off as well. Unfortunately it is now in the hands of the workers as to the future of Cat in London. If the unions bow then Cat can't leave without much more severe financial and public relations consequences. Just my take.
That's why Cat has offered such a dramatic series of cuts. There's no way it can work out when Cat refuses to budge with their demands. Had they moved even a little bit towards the workers demands, then I would believe that there was hope that they actually would be willing to keep the plant open. Reality dictates that the new plant in Muncie was bought and set up to take over from a higher cost operation, namely London. They are hiding behind the guise that they need the Muncie operation to comply with the requirements for US made locos. In fact, they could have easily done that with existing facilities. Cat is closing London, and the labour dispute they have orchestrated is helping them to do that cheaper. I have no issue with the plant closing, but I do feel they should do the honourable thing, and close the plant properly. They knew about the labour agreements when they bought EMD, so it's not like it was a surprise sprung on them after the deal was closed.
bdlaneyfan, thanks for putting numbers for wages being offered, nobody up until you has done that, now for some questions, how does the wages offered compare to what other cat plants are paid, the same, higher, lower and by how many dollars per hour, also what were the wages of the workers at the canada plant, if what they are being offered is such a dramatic cut in pay? Also what was the benefits and how much less is whats being offered and how do those benefits compare to the rest of cats other plants currently in operation elsewhere? And lastly has anyone come up with what laws are being broken by cat, if the laws are different in canada verses the lower 48?
You might want to re read from the beginning Randy, the 4th post covered that. Kind of hard to rationalize this due to the fact that wages are different all over the world. How do US Cat workers wages compare to those of Cat workers in China or India? Not really a fair comparison, is it? The reduction in benefits was along the lines of 55% to 57%, but to get an exact figure would involve far more information than either side is willing to disclose. Wages were a 53% drop, and total compensation was a 55% drop, so to average it out, benefits should equal about a 57% reduction. I don't believe anyone said Cat is breaking any laws. In fact, I think the opposite has been said. Cat is using loopholes in existing law to do what they are doing, instead of doing the fair and honest thing. By using a labour dispute, they can eventually get away from having to deal with the money they have been granted by the government, tax breaks they have received, and having to pay severance to the workers among other things.
. They will get what they want or move all of there manufacturing to cheaper countries. Many American companies have been doing this for years and it is going to get worse. Wages are going down and they are not going to stop. Ross Pero warned us all years ago, and most Americans just laughed at him and said he was crazy. " HEAR THAT SUCKING SOUND AS JOBS GO OVERSEAS " .
Alco, thanks for putting a full pension and the reduction into percentages of decrease for me, I never saw any dollars figured into this thread on benefits in order to convert those into percentages of decrease, so again, thanks. I too pay 100% of all health costs, along with deductibles and all the rest of the benefits cat wants to cut or is willing to pay, I pay 100% as well, so I really didn't know what dollars were taken away, my figures for myself were completely different. As for comparing the US cat workers to China and India, yea thats exactly what I was looking for also put in percentages and wages and benefits paid, now for this being unfair, as stated in post #4 that nobody seemed to argue about was stated the housing costs, gas price, milk costs in order to justify the paid wages, no arguments at all on my end, then why is it unfair to compare to somewhere else? This is HEF and its members are worldwide, the last I checked and was wanting input from other areas and countries as to their costs and also wages, I don't see why thats unfair at all. I hear a lot in the papers and news in my area how companies are taking jobs away from good people and giving them to third world countries that are termed cheap labor and a host of other things most not mentionable here but there is never a dollar amount put to the cheap labor, so from all aspects there must be some people working for about 25 cents an hour living in bark huts somewhere. I'd like to hear from them as well as to costs, I don't doubt there are differences in areas and costs of those areas, nobody really would, but at the same time, I'd like to know if cat is exploiting workers worldwide only paying them pennies per hour, like the media would like everyone to think, maybe your area is different for whats reported on the news, I can't speak for any other area than my own. If the statement has been made for your area, then why is it unfair for other areas to report their costs and wages? dblaneyfan has already stated the wages for us workers are about half of what canadian wages are and nobody seemed to argue that statement at all, so why not add some more data to the subject, since it was presented to HEF as cat treating workers nasty and opening up the dialog to the world, yes I'd like to know how US workers compare to china, india and the rest of the countries cat has plants. Cats not the only company dealing worldwide, most everything I buy comes directly or indirectly from somewhere around the world if I like it or not, its just how its done today, so yes it does affect me either directly or indirectly and I for one would like to know how things are in other countries, if we're discussing wages and compensation in this thread, lets keep the information coming, sorry if this offends anyone else or hurts someone's feelings, we've got some information already stated, anyone want to add some more?
Sorry Randy, to me it looked like you were heading down the road to "Cat only pays half that in the US plants, so it's good enough for them as well." like a few have said already. I read into what I thought you were going to say before you said it, and that was wrong. I was trying to get across that comparing different countries to each other and assuming they are all the same just isn't fair. However, it looks like you weren't trying to do that. So, I apologize for assuming incorrectly, and I would also be interested to see how it all stacks up around the world. Like I've said before, I know the plant is dead for all intents and purposes. Would I have liked to see it stay? Of course I would, but business dictates that they move it to save money. In truth, I have no real problem with that. My issue lies with the way they are going about it.
The way I see it Cat is saying to the Canadian workers "you're overpaid and unless you are willing to work for the same amount as we pay in another country, we will shut this plant and move it". So the workers are stuck between a rock and hard place. Work for a pittance, have no work, hope to find another well paying job or move to the place where Cat has put the factory and hope that the cost of living is a lot less? Financially what Cat is doing is a good move but morally it is awful, of course it has been said that a business is about making a profit. However does it also have moral obligations like a person has? I suppose I could argue that robbing a bank is immoral but makes sense from a financial view point, potentially netting large amounts of money for little effort or outlay. Does society tolerate bank robbers? Bank robbers could argue that they are just doing their job, trying to feed their families. Should we tolerate a big business, legally robbing the bank? The bank in this case being the loco factory and the associated things that go with it. They could argue that they are feeding their shareholders by creating a bigger profit. Personally I think Cat are doing wrong, far as I know the plant is making a good profit, so why shoot the goose that lays the golden egg, the goose being well paid workers who have the ability to spend, thus creating the need to manufacture and manufacturing needs raw material that are mined by equipment produced by Caterpillar. Or in this case the manufactured products are moved by trains powered by Locomotives made by Cat. I saw a good video the other day which illustrated the flow on effect of a car factory worker versus other workers, such as IT or nursing. Basically it was trying to show why the auto industry(and similar) needed to survive. I can't find it right now but it suggested that for every worker in a car plant, there are about 17 jobs that support that worker (jobs such as the haul truck driver in a mine, the persons driving the locomotive), whereas 5 jobs are created for every IT worker (these figures may be wrong because I am working from memory). The way I see it, if they agree to a reduced wage then the number of support jobs created by the worker in the Loco factory will go down because they don't have the spending power they once had. Will they be able to eat out twice a week or buy a new car every two years or even be able repay their home loan? In this thread the 'global economy' has been mentioned a few times but can the global economy work if it is staffed by poorly paid workers who can't spend except for the very basics? Will a Nike factory worker in Vietnam be able to buy Nike shoes? Will a Sony TV assembler in China be able to buy a Sony TV? Will a Microsoft programmer in India be able to buy an X box? They could if they are paid at least a relatively fair wage. Do they get paid a relatively fair wage? Don't know but why should Nike, Microsoft or Sony pay them any more than the minimum, the whole point of having factories in low wage countries is the low wage. Business are not setting up factories in those countries, so that they can pay them what we would consider to be a fair wage. Imagine if Nike paid Vietnamese workers $16/h, Nike would still be making a good profit (considering what we pay for Nikes over here) and the Vietnamese workers would be able to buy shoes and TV's and game consoles and homes to put all their goodies into. End result being that companies make just as much profit because, even though their margins per product are less, they make that up in extra volume. Lets say Sony makes a profit of $100 per TV by paying the assembly worker $2/h but only $95 per TV if it pays $12 (based on the assembler making 2 TVs every hour), now if they sold 10 TVs @ $100 profit they would make 1000 bucks for their shareholders, however if they sold 11 TV's (because the worker can afford a TV) @ $95 per TV they would make a $1045 profit for their shareholders. Basically what is happening is all the money in the world is being concentrated at the very top and the result will be that very few people have the ability to spend and thus product volumes will be affected, closing more factories. Sure the rich spend their money too but the do not buy 100 GM cars to put in their garage, they buy a couple of Rollers, perhaps 20 TV's for their mansion, whose gardens are maintained by a person being paid the minimum wage and this person can't afford a TV.
Henrick, Well said!!!!!!
Hendrik, I've heard this discussion so many times I've lost count, you maybe right, but before you go thinking that, I've got some questions for you first, in your nike example, do you work for nike and live where you described? How about friends and relatives do they? Where did you gleam the information that nike doesn't pay a fair wage? What wage do they pay, is it nothing or is it actually the 16 per hour, more, less, and if so how much more or less? Your profits might be spot on, but where did the information come from, just assumptions or your costs where you live and translated them into those areas? My kids are growing up and getting jobs, looking around not only the US but abroad as well, and the wages look good, but I keep telling them, it means nothing unless you know the costs "there" not here and how that translates into those economies, not ours here. One was offered a wage to blow your socks off from california, we have friends there that told us, forget it, between rent and other costs, they'd work for less than minimum wage and take less here with lower costs and be money ahead. Your mention of a global economy, I think it was me that stated that and I do believe it is true, some disagree with me, thats fine. To claim they are paid poorly and can't afford anything but the basics, is based off of what, if you don't have the actual costs there to compare, your basically using imaginary claims to state a case for hysteria and then can rationalize anything, which maybe true, but I've heard this stated thousands of times before and I'm not sure it is true at all let alone plausible. I fully understand "here" refers to wherever "you" live, you referring to anyone, I've heard this discussion plenty, it ends the same every time, bashing workers and countries everywhere but "here" and companies for doing what they did "here" to go "there", I for one would like to actually hear from "there" just once, you know where the factories got relocated to and how it affected them. I'll use the media as a means to get information, so if I'm wrong which maybe true, its what I was told via them, bear this in mind, I don't live or work "there". I've heard for decades now how china puts out poor products, along with taiwan and a host of other countries, their workers work for starvation wages, live in bark huts if they are lucky, most live in the streets, have no skills, no intelligence, are not capable of learning even the smiliest task, the list is truly endless as to how bad they are, worse for the companies that locate there, the products are so bad nobody will buy them, the workers are exploited beyond words to describe, without law and order, some have to be held hostage and have guns held to their heads to get them do anything, horrible unsafe working conditions, etc, etc, etc..................... but their products are in our everyday lives everywhere, components in our vehicles, computers, appliances, you name it, they are making it and we're buying it, either as components or entire products, I'll bet even the computer you type on was made "there". Then the media talks about the booming economies in these third world countries with expansion everywhere, and by the looks of it, they're not riding bicycles on dirt streets, they have cities to rival ours, even better from what I've seen, they are consumers of their own products and things look good and your telling us they can't afford the basics? I'd like to know their costs and pay, also figuring in inflation what the same products costs there verses what we pay. I'm not thinking they're working for starvation wages at all, everything costs money everywhere. I'm also under the impression "isolationism thinking" is an obsolete way of operating and thinking, and since everyone else is thinking global and I'm dealing global every day of my life weather I like it or not, from products I buy and use daily that have components in them made around the world, maybe I need to look at and see what is actually going on elsewhere, not just "here" anymore. So to me the examples you just gave are not making sense to what is actually happening around the world today, not to say your wrong, but maybe someone can explain how "those" backwards, underdeveloped countries with poorly paid labor and exploited people and "used" by companies to make mega profits are doing what they are doing with no money in their pockets to do it with? Here on HEF we are global, members from around the world, not just "here" and it is nice to know whats happening around the "neighborhood" so to speak, its why I'm a member, if I wanted to remain "isolated" I'd go to the local coffee shop and listen to the bashing of the neighboring community, but with HEF I can talk to people around the world, hear whats going on in an industry I'm involved in and know about, see how things change and are done elsewhere, now I'd like to hear and know about wages and benefits around the world, since cats getting bashed here somewhat, lets discuss somewhere other than just "here" and the other side of the story so to speak, no I don't feel it unfair to do so or off topic in this thread at all.
Randy good point that people really need to let sink in and understand - wages vs the cost of living. This morning I am watching one of those "fix your house" shows on DIY TV and the house the people bought was $305,000, was built in the 70's and looked like it has never been remodeled. I laughed my ass off that the piece of junk they bought cost that much. Around "here" $300K will buy a nice NEW house, in a good location - 2500SF, 2 car garage, etc. Last night me and the wife went out on a "date" to our local Italian restaurant. Calamari for an appetizer, bottle of Chianti, two entrees and a huge piece of chocolate cake. All the food is homemade including the pasta. Total bill with 9% sales tax was $78.00, a splurge for us during slow times but I though it was worth it. The cost of living in Alabama is cheap compared to other parts of the US and especially Canada. I have several Canadian friends from Ontario, Nova Scotia and Alberta that I met in Costa Rica. The cost of living in CR is comparable to Alabama for food, gas, utilities and housing (North American style housing in a gated community). My Canadian friends were always amazed at how cheap it is to live in CR, which always opened up the conversation of cost of living differences. Opened my eyes and mind up, which is always a good thing. Changing the subject somewhat, around "here" I see a positive side of globalization. Alabama is home to the first Mercedes Benz manufacturing plant in North America, a Hyundai plant that produced several 100K cars last year and a Honda plant that makes the Odessy Van as well. There is also a Toyota and Navistar engine plant as well. http://www.edpa.org/pdfs/Automotive Industry Profile.pdf (this information is old but gives a good glimpse) Thyssen Krup invested $5 billion in a new carbon steel plant in Mobile. http://www.thyssenkruppsteelusa.com/ So let's take a look at wages and cost of living in Alabama- For example- (From al.com) Average Alabama salary - $34,600 Average auto worker salary - $54,400 Someone could say that $54,400 per year to assemble Honda's is peanuts and how dare they offer such a low wage. Hold the phone - $54K a year is a very good job here in Alabama where the cost of living is low. Average home price in Alabama is $165,052 which is roughly 3 years salary for an auto worker and 5 years of salary for the average worker. The ratio of yearly salary to the cost of housing is a number used to determine cost of living. This ratio shows an affordable cost of living in Alabama. The Alabama worker that assembles Alantra's and Odessy's can afford to buy one. I doubt the average Mercedes worker could afford to buy an M Class but that's a luxury vehicle and if they are going to spend that much money on a vehicle they would probably buy a Superduty or a lift kit and 35's for their Blazer - it is Alabama after all. Navistar is the only US company that located here. Of course these are "assembly" plants and some will argue that since the blocks aren't cast here it's not really manufacturing. Well those jobs these plants created are real jobs that put real roofs over their heads and food on their tables. Those folks are proud and thankful to have these jobs. The State gave massive tax breaks in order to lure these factories here. Some will argue that it's not right to give these companies such large tax breaks as they should be paying their "fair share". (I really dislike the word "fair" as it's meaning is so subjective) What people don't realize is without these tax breaks, the auto plants would have located elsewhere and the jobs they created would not be here. You haven't lost anything you weren't going to get in the first place.:cool2 The spin-off industries of suppliers and support for these auto factories have also made a significant impact on the State economy. From the initial construction to the everyday distribution network, there are a lot of people that earn their living from these factories. Just another view on globalization, yes there are a tremendous amount of jobs being shipped overseas but some are being create here in North America. The States must compete in this global market and use all the tools in the toolbox. Yes, Alabama is a Right to Work state and this has had a lot to do with our auto industry. I am not starting an argument just stating a fact. There's just a little pride when I see an M Class in a foreign country and I say to myself, yep made in Alabama.
Pretty much the same here in Tennessee as is in Alabama CM, affordable cost of living, no state income tax, 9% (+/- depending on location) sales tax. Volkswagen built a mfg plant near Chattanooga, Komatsu has an excavator plant near there as well and main US parts distribution center in Ripley TN, Denso has some fair size parts mfg plants in Athens and Maryville, probably all these jobs were moved here because of tax break negotiations between mfg company and local town they were looking at locating. Which brings up the "is that fair" issue you spoke of, which drives me bonkers as well, it ain't about fair, any form of fair can only result in stifling free people with some form of socialism. Plain and simple, it's competition folks. And moving it to a global scale, the whole world is in competition for jobs as a whole. I'm going to start a widget mfg company tomorrow, I pick up a loudspeaker that can be heard the world over that I'm going to do so, I can guarantee you that the hands will start raising the world over, some offering me this, some offering me that, to locate my plant at their location in the world. And since I intend to go into business with the illusion to make some form of profit, not because I feel I have a moral obligation to feed the world around me, I'm going to be inclined to accept an offer that I feel best suits my interests. I understand this is an oversimplified view, but it's reality, it's business, plain and simple. It's not an ethical or moral issue, it's business responding to global competition. We can complain and b-i-itch about company A doing this or that, but until we realize that all our jobs, in some form or fashion, are subjected to global competition for jobs, we can either sit on our front porch and whine about it, or we can get off our arse and figure out a way to adapt to our new reality that other folks around the world, not in our neighborhood, are competing for my job.
Thanks CM also excellent post, see I'm learning things already, I personally never knew that was in Alabama, so taking pride in ones area has merit's, it informs the rest of us what life's like in your area. I'm not wanting to start any arguments either, I'm just wanting information about other areas, this always seems to put everyone on defense that I'm putting them down or trying to cookie cutter them into admitting they are getting something someone else isn't, thats not the case and I hope it doesn't go there either, but I've presented this same question hundreds of times and each time I'm shot out of the saddle by hostility and never get answers. We're all people making a living somehow, either by working for employers or being self employed and getting paid off others who we work for, I tell my banker this every year, I'm just a pawn piece in a larger equation is all, Henrik is basically right, all money flows into an economy, your right too CM, deals are complex and areas do cut deals to draw business's to locate there, its how things have always been done everywhere to a certain extent, thats why multimillion dollar or multibillion dollar deals are so complex and time consuming to achieve. The joke in my area is about farmers, put a dollar in their pocket and they'll spend 5 they don't have besides the one they do, it keeps money in circulation, I also farm and can laugh at myself on that one too, its basically true, money spent circulates and thats why the philosophy of workers starving wages can't be true, money circulates and promotes progress in many areas, if starvation wages are paid, there is no progress to the mass's, only a select few, and these other countries are becoming a large bargaining force worldwide and its not done by a few with riches, some might think that but it can't be true, I maybe wrong and if so someone explain it to me. When a plant sets up shop, there is a natural spur to the economy, workers need to build the plant, equip it, level the land for the plant, parking lots, shipping needs to be in place, workers need to be hired, taxes are generated people need to eat and housing to live in, the list is endless, and money drives it all, so the notion of inept people and starvation wages just doesn't add up, now this is true no matter where it happens, in my backyard, yours or someone else's. No company today would spend millions to set up a plant and plan on hiring total morons to work for them, so dense they can't handle the simplest task, I'm finding that hard to believe, last I looked these products are pretty high tech, the days of hiring 10 year old kids without shoes or factories with dirt floors isn't plausible any more for the components they turn out and ship out everyday. The idea of someone working in a tv manufacturing plant and not able to afford the tv's they make, or afford shoes to wear, seems a stretch to me. The whole idea of low wage countries and exploiting them and the workers, might be somewhat short sided way to look at things, they might be cheaper, but its not just wages, like the cost of living, all products cost less, from the buildings to the labor, taxes, real-estate to buy, housing, food, gas, automobiles, the whole lot, thats why companies want to locate there, they get more for their dollar than here, they don't get this for free, its just lower cost. To put this in simpler terms, do companies move into gated communities where houses cost 10 million dollars a pop to build a plant and hire those that live in those houses to work for them? No, they hunt areas more adequate to their needs, easier access to shipping, raw materials, labor to build the infrastructure they need for not only their plant but its support personnel and the community itself, not in gated communities where movie stars live and have their luxury houses and pools. So I'm being told these workers are not even making enough to live on, but the ones who build these buildings, run shipping, truck drivers, secretaries, shop foreman, the hamburger shops downtown to feed the workers, the real-estate personnel that sells the land to them and the housing crews that put up housing, the contractors that pour the cement for roads and parking lots, the hundreds of jobs created everywhere due to the expansion, but everyone makes something but they hire the workers who are paid starvation wages and can't buy the simples things? and this makes sense and is plausible or is it a whole country conspiracy going on? As for taiwan and china products being no good or inferior quality, how can this be, the components are put in everything we use on a daily basis, its not just cat and the rest of the big name manufactures who do it, but all manufacturing does it, but its still junk and low grade quality? put together by cheap labor, so cheap they can't buy shoes? The last time I looked, the parts that are in my vehicle and allow it to run are made there, same for the bearings and computers to laptops and everything else known to man kind basically, maybe its time to figure out how to compete with them instead of blaming them for taking what we had or wished we kept instead, sounds like Alabama has a head start on some of the rest of us on this issue to me. For those in Canada, I'll agree maybe labor is higher there, along with the cost of living, but you've also got things that are cheaper, you've overlooked those things because your not seeing what companies see, this is also why I went down this road, everyone has advantages to their area, no matter how little it might seem, we all need to figure out why the companies left and pull our heads out of the sand and ask ourselves honest hard questions, why did we lose out and what can we do to prevent it from happening again, what is desirable to others in our area and how to promote it, without asking questions and getting answers we've not even in the game let alone armed with any knowledge. I've always said, if I lose the game I can live with that, but at least tell me we're playing a game and where its at so I can at least show up to get my *ss kicked. No company coming into your area will tell you, good god man, your transportation costs are far below average and that would save me 10 million dollars in the next ten years alone, but if you did your homework, you'd figure this out on your own to help you promote your area, apparently Alabama has done its homework well. I'm still thinking we're dealing global and if we don't know what everyone else is doing, how can we compete, it might not be a happy idea but to me its the reality of the situation we're in today, so adjust and move on, will it help those in canada today keep their jobs, probably not, but it can help them on round two with the next company they deal with provided they learn on this one and discuss it and figure out what went wrong, I'm also thinking the loophole idea might not benefit anyone in the long run but if it exits, close it for the next time so it is illegal and can't be done again. As for moral obligations, that to me is getting pretty close to religious discussion and I'd rather not go there, thats a lot of bickering with no gain.
Hendrick, did you know that NIKEs distribution system was developed by Caterpillar along with Harley Davidson? That big warehouse in Indiania of Harley's is kinda like managed by Cat! It's unbelievable how many things their into. I also can't believe they keep that much mfg in this country just because of labor and all the sales that are abroad now. Just putting that out there.
Company stockholders always trump workers!
But without stockholders and more specifically their money they invested, there would be no funds to build the factories and thus no jobs for the workers.:cool2
Here in Iowa we've got of course John Deere, manufacturing in waterloo, and also dubuque making tractors, farm equipment and their forestry lineups, deere took its bloodbath in the 80's and learned to go global and use diversification to survive, just like cat, terex in Waverly putting out telehandlers and cranes, among other things for their lineup, they took over the old shields plant, then shields bantam, then koehring and now terex, times change, we've also got a start up company making trailers, XL trailer making lowboys in manchester iowa. Our state too gave incentives for the companies to not only stay, but prosper here, without that we'd be just farms and plenty of grain shipped overseas to export markets, also plenty of ethanol plants and biodiesel plants to dot the landscape and now more windmills generating electricity than I ever dreamed possible. We've got plastic plants, bolt plants, wiring harness plants, electrical plants turning out high tech electronics to the airline industry and auto industry and dozens of smaller plants turning out products I never knew existed till family members got hired there to work. We've lost plenty of meat packers over the decades and are down to a handful turning out meat products worldwide, a silica sand mine shipping globally as well and I'm still thinking whats around me I just don't see on a daily basis. Koehring sold out the patents to a company and they are across the boarder in minnesota making trenchers now again with the upswing in demand, oh yea cedar rapids rock products, still making things worldwide in rock crushing and processing. Vermeer manufacturing turning out farm and construction equipment, another Iowa based company with start up roots right here and dealing globally. Quaker oats is based here yet I think, maybe its corporate office has moved but I don't think so. When one puts his thought to this we've got a lot really, probably even more I've forgotten over time. I'm not sure about wages and benefits, but the last I knew what cat was offering is about right that 16-22 per hour depending on what it is and how high tech it is. Its down a lot over the years, since most of the packing plants went bust, and john deere backed down when they almost went bust in the 80's as well, Cats across the river in Illinois as well but I can't comment much on them, its not really in my state or close by, they too have backed off wages I'm thinking over the last 3 decades, from what to what I don't know I'd have to ask again what john deere did pay back in the day, I've got plenty of friends who had parents work there along with relatives. The wages were not as much as the benefits back then that I do know, as for the packing industry back in the day they were at that 15-30 per hour plus benefits but when the bust came and all the big rollers went bust, now its more like minimum wage without many benefits and they are having a hard time to survive as well, its just the nature of the industry I guess. I'm thinking we're pretty moderate for living costs as well, but it depends on where your at in the state as well, we are at about 6-7% sales tax and do have state taxes for everyone. Not sure what average housing costs now, with the downturn in the housing I'm not sure the average is correct, just kept up by banks and real-estate agents in hopes things will turn around again, land on the other hand, is at all time highs, setting records almost monthly, just crazy with grain pieces into the stratosphere compared to normal prices of even 5 years ago, again all globally driven in demand.
I used Nike because in the past there have been reports that their factories where sweatshops, to be fair Nike HQ was probably not fully aware of conditions until it was highlighted in the media and appears to be trying to do the right thing. Although I think I am being fairly generous with that statement. http://talk.onevietnam.org/nike-factory-in-vietnam-source-of-jobs-or-evil-sweat-shop/ Of interest in the article is the claim that Nike are paying $54 per month, which apparently is more than the base wage. Sure the cost of living is nowhere what it is here (Oztralia) but it is still not a lot. I've been to Vietnam and yes things are cheap but it is a developing country and costs will go up. Of particular interest is the cost of housing, will a Nike factory worker be able to fulfil the dream of owning a home on $54 a month? Or are they not entitled to own their own homes? This article goes a bit more in depth http://www.globalexchange.org/sweatfree/nike/faq but has an agenda behind it, so may not be that unbiased. However it does explain a bit about cost of living in SE Asia. The thing is, did Nike decide to shift manufacturing to SE Asia in order to help develop those nations or did they go there because they could pay workers the absolute minimum they could get away with, in order to maximise profits? Like what Cat wants to do at it's London plant. My point of view is that paying a worker a wage that barley covers the cost of living is not helping that country/community move forward and is what may be called 'wage slavery'. To further give some relativity, a kilo of rice in Vietnam costs about 34 cents http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-19/vietnam-may-free-rice-stockpiles-to-cool-prices.html and a Nike worker earns ($54 month divided by 200 hours worked at least) 27 cents an hour, which means he/she has to work for an hour and a bit to earn a kilo of rice. I haven't bought rice here for a while (I like the basmati stuff) but the Oz minimum wage is $15.51/hr and I am pretty sure an Oz worker does not have to work for an hour and a bit to afford a kilo of rice. Anyway I hope this lends come credence to my previous post, I can't really understand your cynicism as a quick web search will come up loads of articles about working conditions in 'cheap labour countries'. You are entitled to think that all is sweet and these big corporations are good citizens of the world and have a heart. Or perhaps you can go with the old 'life is like that" and they should be grateful that they have a job but would you work for less than the cost of living, knowing your employer is making big money?
OK we will have remember your words of wisdom when there are no jobs any more, when the local McDonalds is staffed by guest workers because using your rationale, why should there be any barriers in the way a company chooses to do it's business. Trade unions are essentially a form of socialism, they will have to go as they may restrict the way a company chooses to treat it's workers, after all they should be grateful that the company chooses to let them work in their factory. Also would you still think this way if you where working in a profitable factory that is about to be shut and relocated to China, for no other reason than to make a bit more profit for the company. They may well feed the workers some spin about global competition and such, which they will have to stand there and swallow, then they can go home and explain to their families that due to global competition their future is stuffed. Vise Grips are good example http://madeintheusabyamericans.blogspot.com/2008/09/newell-rubbermaid-moves-vice-grip-to.html sure it can be argued that if they did not cut costs to compete with cheap Chinese knocks offs they may well go under altogether but now vise grips have lost a big advantage over the knock offs, what will the future hold for them? I have also heard a lot of you say, suck it up and get another job but what if there is no other job? Well I suppose that's competition and the workers in the developed nations are the losers. It is sometimes easy to take the view that competition is good, if you are ahead of the pack in terms of marketable skills. Anyway when you figure out how to make it a level playing field, let me know. BTW I am not a true socialist but have the view that the world is run by accountants, who are tasked with maximising profits for the rich. I really can't see that the course we are sailing on is going to anything but end in disaster. Remember socialism thrives when people see no future. That's how Hitler got to be in power, that is how the Communists got into power. I do think that if we view the world in a simplistic black and red (profit and loss) way we will loose our humanity and become slaves to the almighty dollar. We can just look at the small picture and say that competition is good but what are the larger consequences and who is responsible for them? Our leaders who tend to agree with you about global competition for jobs? The company directors who put profit before social responsibility? Or perhaps it is the average person who witnessed the death of manufacturing and helped it along by buying the cheaper product made by wage slaves? The concept of 'fair' used to run pretty deep within the psyche of Australia, our national anthem is Advance Australia Fair, this is being eroded by global competition. We used to believe that workers had the right to a 'fair' wage. Obviously paying someone 27 cents an hour in a sweatshop is now fair too.
The point that everyone is missing is that employees only make the amount of money that they can leverage from an employer. No employer offers any more money than they have to pay. The employer is the entity that starts the pot of money on pure risk. There are no guarantees of them succeeding. There are guarantees of them failing if they don't perform. When you go to work for an employer you are giving up a certain element of risk for a paycheck and certain negotiated benefits. You have put your risk in the employers hands. The other part of this seems to be that this company is a subsidiary of Caterpillar. No one has stated whether or not the same management team is still in place. Perhaps Cat told the management team they have a new bottom line and left it up to them to figure it out. Unfortunately that means the employees also fail. Remember, they gave up that part of the risk for a steady paycheck. Here is a different take. The plant in Canada is in a different country than Caterpillar. Caterpillar has decided to bring that capability back to the United States. It sounds to me like they are now going to employ US citizens and bring those wages and benefits back to the home base. While I think it is probably a little underhanded to shut the plant down the way they are doing it, I also think it is a little underhanded for government to come in and tell Cat how they have to do business in Canada. I truly feel for those folks there. It is a lousy feeling to not have a steady job for the foreseeable. However if those jobs are between US citizens and those in Canada, then I'm sorry, Canada looses.
Hendrik, how do you explain the rationale of the foreign companies that decided to build assembly and production plants in Alabama? These plants have been built over the last 15 years, during the age of globalization.
Because it is a sweet home? By the sounds of it the great state of Alabama made em a good offer. I can't really explain in detail why a company decides to build a factory here or there. However the product has to be made somewhere and various factors go into that decision. Including things like shipping, availability of skilled workers to perform more complex tasks, as a marketing tool (ie Made in America) which is particularly the case for the car makers, availability of parts that go into the product and the list goes on. Of course there is also the cost per worker, which appears to be cheaper in Alabama than in other parts of the States. To me it looks like the factories need to turn out a quality Made in America product, as Hyundai, Navstar et al are in a very competitive business. I am going to take a guess that wages in Japan and South Korea are getting pretty high and another factor in spreading your factories all over the world, is if you have a big natural disaster in the part of the world where your factories are....... However what sort of level of automation is within these new factories? Do machines do 90% of the work? It is hard for a machine to be able to sew together a shoe but they can mostly build a car. This is perhaps a dilemma that faces a lot of older factories, either spend money on automation or use cheap labour in another part of the world? This is what made the vise-grip move interesting. I am pretty sure that a great deal of the manufacturing process could have been automated, which may have meant a reduction of workers but they could still put the Made in America sticker on it. Spose now they have Designed in America in big letters and assembled in China in fine print.
John, I truly feel sorry for you if really believe that. I can think of many employers who pay their employees more than they have to. Employers who actually care about their employees.
Hendrik, thanks for the reply, but while on that subject I can one up you, if your wanitng examples of bad business, lets chat about a lot of the same things you just put out there, sex alligations, workers abuse, cheating overtime pay, now toss in bank fruad, money laundering, many hundred counts of child labor laws voilations, all which came about convictions and jail time, basically life sentences to the one's responsible, but here you might find it interesting, they were a lot more recent than your examples, like two years ago, then toss on filing bankruptcy and almost destroying a town and its inhabitants, destoying housing in that town, leaving a mass of debt to last decades for the locals to clean up and absorb, I could go on for hours, but the interesting part is all those involved were foreign people, the owners, the staff, management and oh yea the workers as well................. but it happened on US soil in todays time in Postville Iowa, my state with AgriProcessors, that too was in the papers and on the net, look it up. So maybe since we're discussing cat a global company, which by all omissions has not broke any laws, maybe those, yours and mine should go under a thread called corruption. Next, again not to be harsh or one sided, I did do a lot of reading, you presented and from the net, over a dozen articles in fact all off the net, last night, again thanks for the info, the meidia never reported that in my area........................................ but it was so many decades ago I'd probably forgotten it by now anyhow, which leads to several questions, again just obserbations on my part, not to bash or priaise any involved for anything here. But all those articles dated back to sources in time between 1990-1997, the first one you tagged on was written in 2010 but used sorces dating back to that eara, same as all the rest I found on the net, no matter when they were written, next.............whats the outcome, in mine it was convictinons and jail time for the one's doing the deeds, in yours those are 15-22 years ago and no follow up other than some were charged? Next, the second article was dated in 2011 and had data from 2011 or 15-22 years newer and lastly you compared wages in your area and costs to those in vietnam? To gain information about wages verses cost of living, the figures all need to be from the same time frame, same location, those are figures we can use to compare things and the question I originally had and still do, what about those that live "there" not "here" If I'd jump around and take figures from my area and convert and use assumptions for somewhere else, I bet I can not only protray anyone to look bad but also maybe even be convincing enough to pursuade others into believing anything I'd like. I don't and never have said abuse anywhere or breaking the law is fine and still don't, but at the same time I don't establish minimum wage anywhere nor cost of living anywhere, those are out of my hands completely, the articles on the net also went onto say minimum wage was paid but that was dated in or around 2000, but it was something like 37.50 at that time, I'm guessing a month? I don't know they never said, but I'm also not a world wide humanitarian either, the churches might be a better place for that. Now I can't do much for someone making in their country converted to their wage scale what their country deems a fair wage, I'm not god, even if I feel in my world its low or poverty, but the alternative to doing nothing is what, boycot the products and pull out all manufacturing? Again an observation, but without manufacturing wouldn't the average salery still be that price, but with no money pumped into the economy? Now before anyone goes and bashes my brains in for being insensative, there are two sides to every story, so bear with me somewhat, without manufacturing down there, the wage won't change ever, nor will the lifestyle and level of society, but also bear in mind crime and corruption go along with prosperiety, I'm not sure you or I can compare any country to our own, in todays age, but those societies are back in for us what would be 100-150 years ago in the evolution chain of manufacturing. Now that said what alternative did those people have? Anyone would choose the lessor of two evils, if they didn't have that job, what was option number two.........starvation, none of the articles said any other options. For agriprocessors workers option number two was what happened, deportation for illegals and being sent back to where they tried to get away from, something worse than they had here, they didn't report the abuse or the crime, they didn't like option number two or want it, the state stepped in with an investigation and forced option number two and also the charges against the company, that was the whole arguement in the first place, the victims didn't praise the government for stopping it, they praised the employer for having the job, so whats right and legal to do, stop the crime being committed, was in the end, wrong for the victims, when asked them and they had a voice. I personally thought the government did the right thing and stopped it and ended the company and its dealings, the victims had a different version completely, I know I spoke to some of them and they hated the government for shutting down the plant, one even said, compared to where we are being sent, this plant if like a salvation to us, even with what they did, I"ll be dead in a week where I'm being sent back to............. that kind of hit me hard............... abuse, deplorable working conditions, cheating wokers out of wages, using humnan beings and discarding them like trash, lying to them, robbing them blind and in the end, the victims still thought of them as some hero and a savior, so no I"ll not always understand because I didn't know what or where they came from and quit judging people and their country by my standards I have. Just a thought I'd pass along. Now that said, I'll agree the company should have stepped up and done something, but are you and I any better, how much of your earnings did you send down to aid those people, half or all of it? Every year since, how much? I'll admit I'm not a humanitarian, never claimed to be, but don't bash a company for making money and not giving back what you feel they should, unless your prepared to give all you have all the time, we or at least I live in a free interprise system and like it that way, if injustice has occured step up to the plate and take action, buy shoe companies and better the wages and working conditions and then disribute the excess earnings back to the people, don't decare its someone else's responsibiity, you'd not accept someone dicating how you spend your money or how much you should give away, would you? First you can't give away what you don't have and its not yours till you have it in your hand, I've never dictated or condembed anyone for not giving away something I wan't willing to do myself. Don't set standards based on you or I, because if we do that, it works the same for everyone and someone might then deem you have more than they and are entitled to what you have. Again thanks for the reading, if you have more pass it along, I'm always interested in how comes and outcomes. Sorry for the long boring post and rambling on. Crime and corruption is not new by any means and will always be here or there, hopefully things are better than they were in the past, sometimes I wonder if this is the case, but hope drives us all in one way or another, we coud discuss literally the crimes committed in your example were actually done by the hands of their own people, same for my example, or that the governments did nothing for a long time in either case, but in the end that means little, but I also don't hold the actions of the individuals in my case against those that took their place and are operating today or transfer that anger to other legitimate companies opering anyhwere and deem one needs to make up for anothers wrong doing, I guess I'm not like that at all, I draw from the past to help plan for the future and not repeat past mistakes..........hopefully.
How American of you....:notworthy remember that this is a Canadian company doing business in Canada....you do business according to local law.What's underhanded about that?
OK a more current wage info http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/society/10608/minimum-wage-set-for-early-rise.html 22-27% is a big increase but most of that will be eaten up by inflation. I think the central subject in this thread is how companies should behave, to simplify this we could say that on one side we have the pure capitalists, that think a business has the right to make as much profit as it possibly can by any means. If these means include poor working conditions and factory relocation, then so be it. On the other side we have those (like me) who think that companies must also abide by basic human laws (by human laws I mean the ones that say treat each other well, sorta like the rules we have on this forum about how to behave). I think the examples I brought forward do show that given a chance, most companies will adhere to the strict capitalist ideal of maximising profits any way they can. Does the board of a company discuss how it can positively affect the world we live in? No they discuss profit maximisation. When they do get caught out as being poor citizens of the world, they send in the spin doctors and pretend that they did not know about their sub-contractor doing this.
Hendrik, Theres more than just one central subject in this thread, I don't mean to cut anyone off at the knee's or bash anyone's view, but someone stated these things are complicated, I'd do the quote inserts I'm not sure how to do those, I understand fully where your coming from in thinking but again there are two sides to everything. I'll toss out another example from my area, a big not really box chain but rather a larger company wanted to put a shipping and retail outlet in my area quite a few years back and viewed my area as "cheap" labor compared to where they usually locate things, they in fact were right, so the selling point they had was they were going to "save" us and pay descent wages. Boy this was heaven, everyone jumped on this big time and "hope" drove everything, then the reality of the deal came to light, they proposed paying 2-3 times the average salery for "here" and things turned really ugly really fast, now whats the harm right? Well everyone applied, from school teachers, to fire fighters, to hospital personnel, to every store worker everywhere for up to and beyond 70 miles around, city personnel, skilled or not they were at the door to apply, so whats the harm right? Good for the economy good for people, good for the area. They were going to employ the best, anyone would right, thats the idea, it would clean out every position everywhere skilled or not, they offered benefits to literally die for which is far beyond anything anyone else could match overnight and if it went to pass, these jobs couldn't be replaced overnight, anywhere, and alarms went off all over the area, it got so ugly they were not issued permits to finish, delays were set up to stall progress and meetings were held by business's, towns management, hospitals management, fire department managemnt, police management, you name it they were there, and sat the company down and explained, yes what your proposing is great, however, your going to start with what is considered a "fair and comparable" wage for here and move forward s-l-o-w-l-y with wage increases, so slow in fact your not going to take hospital secretaries and hire them to stock shelves in your warehouse, or take firemen and police and park cars for you and take school teachers to mow your lawn in the summer and move snow in the winter, your gong to hire people more qualified for those positions and leave our employee's alone so we have our infrastructure in place we need for our communities, the rest of society can't switch that fast to compete with you coming from areas that are already adjusted to your pay scale. The outcome is what the area demaned it to be, they opened and were paying comparable wages to anyone else in the area. Just something to ponder, that ethics things works both ways, apparently its not just companies looking for the almighty buck but people as well, the civic duty and helping the public and staffing these important jobs that save lives was all somehow forgotten when someone offered them MORE than they were getting now even if it were for a lesser job outside your prized community where this pride thing runs deep and all the hype we hear all the time, I think one might consider it human nature, I'm not sure. Next I've stated before that before you go to save someone, make sure they need saving, if in distress, something is going to be heard, seen, or noticed if in time, the plant you described with nike was in distress and was noticed and things must have been done because they are no longer being noticed in the press up to date. Now I can't argue with anyone that pennies per hour is not much for "here" but for "there" it is, and the workers must have gotten what they were after or the strike would still be in the press, I also read in the articles what exactly they were striking to get for increased wages, which to me is nothing for the meger increase, but to them it was what they wanted and felt they had to have, my opinon really won't matter to them, neither will yours because we're not there living it. But if the strike has ened and things have improved with working conditions and the people went back to work and the press stopped camping out at the doorstep, then for them they must have gotten what "they" wanted. You also brought up the subject of capatilism, I actually agree with you that its drove socity to where its at today and hopefully into the future for hundreds of more years because out of the choices we've got capitalism, socialism, or communism, I"ll take the lesser of all evils and stick with what we've got, what your looking or asking for in thread #105 is perfection or a combination of all three, now I"m pretty sure nobody can have their pick of what parts best suits them and leave the parts that don't behind, that would be great and when you figure it out you'll become the humanitarian of all time and books will be written about you and lectures around the world will happen till the end of time, so not to poke fun but all seriousness, I do hope someone finds just that, maybe its what the world needs. But I'll also point out that for the last 100 plus years, those third world countries with "poor" people in the are not capatalist run and never have been so before you go bashing how bad of a system we're living in we all could be liviing and on strike for the wage increase of going from 40 to a whole whopping 45 bucks a month and have no freedom of anything including speach, something thats been pointed out to me by illegals plenty of times to me personally,... without the fear of being shot where I stand by onyone who disagrees with me, just because they can and will and there's nobody to stop them or do anything about it either. Now while on the subject of the poor countries how come nobody seems to think its wrong what "their" country has done to them, how come the question of working for less than 100 bucks a month was not somehow their governments fault? How come the world press had to be involved, why didn't the country itself step in and solve it long ago and have something in place, where is this civic duty and honor and the idea of fair not go towards the country of those people, not just the companies that are within that country, again its because things are done differently there and the rules are different as well and they don't have the same systems that we do and again I do like my capatilist systems that gave me those luxeries. But since this thread is about cat and have still not gotten an answer to is the question of cats othe plants in asia and around the world, what do they pay, I'm guessing they are not having problems like nike did or the press would be reporting them, anyone have any ideas?
Cat got what they wanted http://business.financialpost.com/2012/02/03/caterpillar-to-close-london-ont-locomotive-plant/
If you will research the mechanics of our financial collapse (the root of what has become a global collapse) you will find that ultimately the cause was large corporations who lacked the forsight(opposite of CAT), and ability to act thereon that CAT has shown in this situation. There were pleanty of warning signs, but the managers were unable/unwilling to act fast enough to abate the coming crisis. CAT saw the same warning signs, but acted on behalf of their shareholders and worked through the pain necessary to continue development of a healthy business. The executives of publicly traded companies in the US have actual personal fiduciary duties to their shareholders and board the breach of which is a federal crime. This is a story of people doing their job, and doing it well. They ought to be applauded rather than villified for their actions.
I read abscraperguy's link and in the commentary at the end, someone was making remarks about the filing of bankruptcy and cat buying this company out of bankruptcy, but it was told before that the business and company were making money, so which is it, was it a thriving financially sound business or did they in deed file bankruptcy and cat bought it out of bankruptcy?
EMD was definitely not bought out of bankruptcy by Cat.
Here in Buffalo, Milton Cat moved 30 miles away to get into a differant union local......where the new Site is ....The south side of the road is a higher paying local, and the north side is a lower paying local.........They were sure to be on the north side......I'm not turning this into a union issue, rather a greed issue on behalf of Cat.....The old shop Cat was in recently was taken over by Anderson Equip.....So the argument of the shop being no good isnt going to fly here...
How is Milton Cat the same as Cat? They are just a dealer. The Buffalo site may have been no good for Milton, but good enough for Anderson. I heard they closed two old small crappy locations and built one new fancy one in the Middle. The location of the site doesn't solve union issues when you have to send techs into both locals now does it? I just don't think that it is fair to speculate on the decisions that a company makes whith out knowing all the facts. Not saying that I know why they made the move, but unless you work high up there, I doubt you know all the facts. Why give a company a bad rap? When maybe thats not even the case.
..Now Milton only pays 1 mechanic the higher scale , the rest get the lower, regardless where the repair is being done..So this does solve the union issue in regards to the pay....I do know someone high enough to know what happenned and why it did....
Like I said. I still doubt you know all the facts.
Apparently you know more than I........Please enlighten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
either way , agree or disagree , above or below board , Business has( and will most likely continue to) gone on this way since the first trade was made ( and hence the beginning of the " how to get ahead faster" mentallity ) . We will all carry the burdens that each has to bear , and in the end ...... well , the lawyers are the only ones really coming out ahead.
EMD was a subsidary of GM that was making good money,good product and had 7 billion in orders on the books when CAT bought it. It doesn't matter anymore though,the fine folks in Muncie will be taking over production now,albeit for McWages. Iv'e heard that they are offering 13-15 bucks an hour for skilled trades at the new plant.
Wow this thread has stirred some emotions. I have been following the story here in Ontario and damn near fell over when i heard the news the plant was closing. Something like this happening in Ontario lights a lot of fires in the media because it is happening so often these days. Ontario used to be the manufacturing powerhouse of Canada, and is now the rust belt north. Manufacturing in Ontario has fallen in stature to the point where agriculture is the biggest industry in Ontario now. Canada uses a system of transfer payments between provinces to move money from provinces who have to those who have not. Ontario used to be the big have province, but in recent years, the transfers have been flowing INTO Ontario! Its amazing how far we've fallen. Anyway, back to EMD. Has anyone tripped over the fact that up until about 2005 the canadian dollar was tracking as low as $.65 to the greenback. It was easy to understand why CAT would want that plant. Its easy to understand why the plant was located in Canada, and making good profit. But the dollar is at par now, and nothing CAT could do could change that. The only thing they could do is relocate the workforce south of the border. Do the Math. When you sell a locomotive you sell it in US dollars. With a Canadian workforce, a lot of your expenses are in Canadian dollars. With a $1,000,000 Canadian weekly payroll, that's only $650,000 US. CAT cant lose. But as the dollar rose to par, the payroll moves up to $1,000,000 US. What do you do? You search out ways to regain your original advantage. If you can't trim payroll at the local plant, you move it to where you can...In this case, Muncie. Unfortunately, there is a mass exodus from Ontario right now. We will be the new Pittsburgh in a few years. Such is life in a global economy. My girlfriend works for an industrial packing company. The company did quite well over the years packing large and unusual items manufactured here, and shipping them all over the world. That business has transitioned to moving the whole factory. Now they just do one big move and the customer is gone forever. People up here are yelling for the government to do something to stop CAT. I say like what??? What would you like them to do? If you implement a policy that makes it hard to close a plant, you reduce the likelihood a company will come in the first place. Its self defeating. The federal government has moved the corporate tax structure so it is now the most favorable in the developed world (so we are told) to attract investors. But there is nothing they can do when another jurisdiction offers no tax plus millions in other incentives. I only know 1 thing. If you have a job, don't depend on it being there forever. Assume that one day you will have to make your own way, so plan on it. Have an out. Think about where you might be able to go if you can no longer go the job you have, and start cultivating those plans now. I wish the best of luck to those affected in London. Ken
That's actually incorrect. EMD has not been a subsidiary of GM since GM sold EMD in 2005 to a group of investment holding companies led by Bershire Partners and Greenbrier Equity. On top of that, though EMD was making money, it wasn't making tons of money, hence why it was sold. It also wasn't making a great product. For many years, development funding was sadly lacking, which caused the product lines to fall behind the times and have to chase the competition.
Thought I would keep all in the loop. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/02/06/wdr-caw-electro-motive-occupy.html Gusse we will see how this plays out. muzy
looking for asphalt overlays eastside ? no need to look for more!
David, obviously you did not take the warning I posted in this thread seriously - HeavyEquipmentForums So I am forced to use extreme prejudice and exercise my moderating duties.:cool2
Politicians will never admit they are wrong international free trade does not benefit Canadians or Americans. Big company profits benefits from international free trade. Now all the manufacturing jobs have gone to cheaper labour with no human rights.
Actually I was just reading today that, some American companies are bring manufacturing jobs back to America because 1. When including all shipping, labour in the USA is cheaper in some areas than China but only without the union. I can easily see that the key there is WITHOUT the union. Just a point how much the union costs is take a look at a situation here in Canada. Union boss takes a 600k bonus the same year a large percentage of his workers are laid off. We can decry the less than ideal pay and less than ideal conditions but a poor paying job is better than no job. 2. "made in America" is worth a lot to garner sales these days 3. Less hassle. Make it in house to company specs that won't be marginalized. With manufacturing in house, in home country, you don't need to worry about the manufacturer quitting for you and promptly building the same product to sell under their own name with your tooling and your R&D. If you're so sure that someone doesn't know all the facts then set the record straight. Your comment doesn't add anything to a discussion. Unless you feel the need to protect Cat then say that. If you have shares in Cat and so want to stand up for Cat because of that don't feel bad. You just made a lot of money this last quarter, in fact Cat says record profits. And with combining all their locomotive plants in Muncie they stand make you a lot more in the future, albeit on the backs of some inconvenienced families. Notice I said inconvenienced. The way Western Canada is booming if people are willing to move there IS work.
Abscraperguy, The reply you quoted was about a Cat dealer, not Cat itself. It was bordering on a hijack, and has nothing to do with what you have been talking about. So don't think that GeoffD was talking to you, it was directed elsewhere.
Ya thanks for the clarification. In later thinking about it, I was suspicious that I had taken that comment wrong.
Which are what? To let corporations say we want to sell products in your country but we don't want to support your workforce because we make more profit by dealing with foreign countries that up until a few decades ago wanted to wipe us off the planet? Make some rules that make sense. Not everyone is going to be a stock trader or middleman. Wait till the next election and see how far that "corporations have a right to do whatever they want" philosophy gets you.
Hang on are you saying the american Auto industry is fine? i thought they had to get bailed out not so long ago? from the government something like 34 Billion USD
What contrys are you talking about? China , Russia , Germany or who? i mean really?
Just to lighten up this thread a bit, here in Aus current price average for milk is $2,bread $2-3, diesel !.49-1.54 per litre, unleaded petrol 1.48-1.52 per litre, remember our gallon equalls 4.94 litres which is different to your american-canadian gallon eqivilant, thats my Aussy 2c worth you all have a good life, im gonna get another beer from the fridge and read some more great threads.
Garrie, It really is amazing the difference around the world, isn't it? Just to clarify one thing though, your gallon is 4.55 litres, which is the Imperial gallon, and the same as Canada's. It's the US that uses a different gallon, at 3.78 litres. Not that it really matters, but I think it's good to have the right info to go off of.
petrols $2.18 a litre on this side of the ditch garrie; diesels $1.52.
I'm not sure what Gasoline is going for here, but I know Diesel was 117.9 cents a litre yesterday.
You would be absolutely right to say that Cats outsourcing lead them to bigger profits. As long as they are able, they will go to the cheapest country to do business in, and sell the equipment where they can get the most from it, destroying the industrial base of the country where they started. We complain about losing jobs offshore, then shop at China-mart (Wal-Mart)... we are part of the problem. How many times do we look for the "Made in Canada" or "Made in the USA" label, and pay an extra buck or two for quality? As an aside, out of all those North American bail-out dollars that were given out, how many do you think stayed in North America? The majority of it went offshore, sunk into corporations with offshore operations. Opps.
ALL these countries have tariff rates and rules for imports. Japan limits aftermarket auto parts and rice to protect industries that the US would dominate. Japanese dumped computer microchips in the US to put the US microchip makers out of business and dominate the industry. If you think less regulations will reduce the abuses that corporations will employ, it will only be because it is no longer illegal. A guy once told me that "Anything is legal until you get caught". Take away regulation and there are no laws to break.
Holy oversimplification. We complain about unfair taxes/tariffs that other countries have but ignore the same when our country does it. We complain about rich people not paying their 'fair share' of taxes, but we would take advantage of the same tax laws if we had that kind of money. We complain about large companies screwing over employees, or moving offshore in the pursuit of profit. In the next breathe we bash the employee telling them if they don't like the offer, find a new job or put some stupid sticker on our trucks saying 'buy American', then stop at Walmart to by some oil cause they have the best price. As humans when we are loyal, we expect loyalty. When we negotiate contracts, we expect the other party will honor the contract. I'm a little surprised with all the 'it's not the companies problem' 'find a new job' comments. Do you negotiate contracts, do the work, and at the end of the job, the guy tells you things have changed. "forget that contract with all those bonuses and extras, here's what you can have, don't like it? Too bad. Always surprised with the responses when these threads come up. Especially with brand loyalty some have, you don't mind their workers taking it in the ass.
Well a lot of the post got lost, I think you can get the gist Of the post. Tom
The problem here Kids is Caterpillar. They knew darn well what the wages were,what the pension obligations were,what the benefits were, & what the taxes were. That my friends is called DUE DILIGENCE & this is done BEFORE,I repeat BEFORE a company makes a large purchase such as Electromotive. If (but doubt) their corporate lawyers did not do their due diligence then they should all be FIRED. So if they knew the costs were out of line & over the top then WHY did they buy them??? Why did they not just keep looking for something where the costs were in control & buy them. That kids,is the 64,000 dollar Question. Caterpillar has two of its largest dealers in CANADA Including the largest,Finning. They sell billions in equipment here EVERY year... They recently purchased another company here in Ontario called Lovat which makes tunnel boring equipment based in Toronto, you can see the writing on the wall, Once they can get everything set up & in place somewhere else which will take a little time, then.......
Did it occur to you that they were buying the competition out of the market just to increase production of the same product in the US?
It seems the situation is quite complicated for CAT
The world economy equals workers earning less than $50 a month working 12 hour days 7 days a week. We will get there fast. The slums we have now will be over priced for the average person.
All we have to do is STOP BUYING CAT Machines in protest haha like that would ever happen given the brand loyalist
People would be all over Caterpillar if they had poor or no enviromental responsibilities, but since having a good green policy is good for business then the large corporations are all for it. The part I dont get is when a large multinational has poor or no social responsibilities in the markets they wish to compete in, NO one gives a rats behind as long as they are making money and apparently thats all that matters. It is truly a sad world we live in.
John C, a your short sentance says it all. Apparently buying a product is a totally new concept for some, not to belittle anyone but the product is whats valueable, not the plant or anything else they bought in the equation. I"m not sure if its dawned on anyone there yet, but cat just might leave the bulidng sit empty permantely, just so nobody else will ever produce anything in it ever again, wait till that realization sinks in. I've seen it done many times where a perfectly good manufacturing facility will be left empty just for that reason, even though many company's want to buy it and start up another line of manufacturing, its been gated off, boarded up, they hire guards to watch over it 24/7 for decades to make sure nothing happens to it and nobody can benefit from it in any way, they pay the property taxes on a delapadated facility generating nothing, but to eliminate competition. I can name several companies that have left dozens of plants each around the usa doing just that, sitting empty just so nobody can produce anything in them or to take up the valuable space the bulidng sits on. I know of one personally that the town and its workers caused enough problems for someone in corporate that there's a personal gudge to be held, and until that person in corporate dies, the plant will sit empty and the property will never be sold or utilized ever again, does it make sense, no but since its considered personal property, the owner can do with it like he sees fit, and since he's not breaking any laws by leaving it sit empty, thats how it'll stay for decades, it may cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars over time to let it sit, but it'll cost the town billions and the workers will lose their homes over the grief they caused him and ridicule they gave him, so before you bash an owner or a company, maybe keep it in mind. So tell me people, if this plant isn't opened back up, does your town have a place to build a whole new facility somewhere else nearby?? If not, then what is your community going to do? What is the town and general area going to do to generate an attaction for other business's who might come to put a new facility in your area when they see a plant sitting empty there now? That whole concept of, how do we make our area and community attactive to a prospective company to come in and spend billions of dollars to relocate or startup a new company may not look attactive with a current production plant sitting empty. But in case nobody ever thought of it before, I'll toss it out there, since its been done before and will happen again, maybe not here, who knows, but the whole town and community kicks in money, a lot of money to try to buy the plant and building back, so it can be torn down or resold so manufacturing or something else can go into the facility and keep from killing the community, making the whole process of it sitting empty a whole lot more economical for the current ownerj, you know, lose some today, force them to pay tomorrow, since after all they were not after the facility, just the product, and it'll cover the grief the town, workers, and area gave the owner, some call it buying back humility, others call it something different, like leverage. I"m sure canada is different than the states in their laws, does canada require all plants to be utalized all the time, does it require by law that the company hires workers to staff the plants at full capacity, if so what portion of the time, is it against the law to leave property sit empty, how about taxes on property, are they set on vaualtion's like in the usa or by production dollars or how are they done, can the government force a sale of property or just suggest the current owner sell it, I'd llike to know if anyone knows tell me and educate me how things are done north of the boarder, I"m not trying to be critical, just asking quesitons and pointing out circumstances I've observed around me in the present and past.
Randy88 Any large industrial plants here that have been vacated by a corporation is either partioned off into smaller businesses with maybe 50-60% of the floor space used or more usually torn down. I believe the property taxes stay the same as being fully utilized so the owners cant afford to keep them standing with no manufacturing going on. The valuation is usually based on the Sq footage & road frontages,etc. The same goes for the utilites as you would need heat & hydro to keep the plants from freezing during the winter months. So no one is going to pay all that for an empty plant. As for your comments about the product being the valuable item not the infastructure,your absolutely right & it is NOT a new concept on me. I am not saying that Caterpillar should produce everything here that they sell, it would be socially responsible to have a plant or two to at least contribute to the enormose profits that they do reap from here. The japanese car manufactures have all figured that one out. They all have NUMEROUS branch plants in north america so at least they can say that they have some American & Canadian content. Dont get me wrong as I have only bought from the big three,but I will give those manufactures credit where credit is do & at least they have the social responsibility to pay back to the communities with good paying jobs. That is something that cannot be said about Caterpillar which we all know is the worlds LARGEST & most PROFITABLE manufacturer of our beloved construction & mining equipment. Caterpillar had a parts distribution plant here in Ontario, another plant that produced small & med wheel loaders & graders.They also made forklifts here,these are all gone now & that does not include electromotive of London...What I am saying is they DO NOT have a very good record of social responsibility here. I am not here to bash any company, owner or individual all I have done is tell truths & facts & let people know what is going on. I think we all need (including myself) to be educated to make wize & responsible purchases with our dollars. I always liked this manufacturer over the years but I have become very disappointed in the results of their drive for more money. As I stated before if a manufacturer has no enviromental care,people would rip them a new one but when it comes caring about people & jobs & the well being of communities no one gives a flying....
It's called business boys and girls. Cat and Ford seen the times coming and re-organized-modernized- combined resources-and did a great job of selling their product. For example look at GM-kept on the same marketing and mfg methods. Oh gosh-we're broke. The govt. bails them out and how much has changed? They still declare big bonus for the boys and HAVEN't PAID THE LOAN OFF YET. I guess it's kinda hard to get down on someone that's successful and manages. Sure Cat and Ford haven't done all the things that everyone likes but look at how many people that really do like what they've done! Oh forgot, look how much stuff GM has taken out of the country and the jobs that went. Just looking at it from business standpoint is all.
61BG, thanks for the answers, but now that leads to more questions, as far as social responsibiity, apparently everyone's idea of this topic is different, now I understand how those in this plant must feel about the loss of their jobs or cutbacks, no matter how I come across at times, I too have been there and know how it feels to lose out in many ways on a lot of things involving money and a career/livelihood. But I need to ask, where does social responsibiilty only imply for one's self, such as this plant, what about where they might locate or are locating to? That area, town, city, providence, state, whatever it is, will be getting a major boost, being pumped millions into that economy, isn't that a social repsonsibiity, cats not there on credit racking up billions in debt, they pay their bills, so as they say one's gain is anothers loss, not trying to be harsh at all, but to some it may sound like some complaining and not getting their way and tears of sorrow on a losers part, or shall I say, not losing gracefully. Is social repsonsibility only when "I", "me", "we", "us" benefit, and not someone else, to me that sounds somewhat greedy and selfish, as they say there are two sides to every coin, and in a coin toss someone loses and someone wins. Now cat might be going for cheaper wages, maybe and maybe not, like I've said before, buyout deals are complex, it may sound good to blame high wages, cheaper labor elsewhere or whatever, but it might not be the case at all, it could be regulatory, tax related, legal, personell related, or a flat out grudge to bear on someone, some community or whatever, but the point still is, cats not getting people as indentured survents working for nothing, in the area's they move into they are paying the going wage there or higher, depending on what job skill they require to attract the people they need, just like any other business does and to most that is social responsbility in those areas, just like most business's do. As for leaving the plant sit empty for long and costing them a lot of dollars, I'll disagree with you on that one completely, they can indeed leave them sit empty to avoid competition in the market share, they may well look at it like most corporations do, it'll cost them far less to leave it sit empty and control the property than have competition in the manufacturing end of it. You may feel it costs too much, same as me, but some board of directors might feel the exact opposite and their vote counts, they may put it up for sale with stipulations on the buyer as to what he can and can't do with the property as well, I've seen that be done too, just the average joe blow on the street doesn't know about the stipulations in the contract. Next thing on the list of questions is this, if my country or area lost cats manufacturing business, stocking point business, shipping business or any other business, maybe I'd take a hard look as to the reason why I lose all the time and someone else wins or gains the business I lost, just a suggestion, but its a topic been touched on in posts before in this thread, "what can I do to retain or attact business to my area" Some areas have it figured out and are prospering, if canada hasn't maybe they should start by the sounds of it, someone's asleep at the switch as they say, and if thats the case with cats track record, didn't anybody there see this coming??? Better yet why didn't anyone try to persuade the owners of this plant to sell to someone else, anyone else?? As for the japanese manufacturing end changing things and building plants in the usa and elsewhere, yes they have, first off, it was all profit driven, not social responsibility driven, because until they came here, they had no social responsibility to anyone here at all. They looked at import/export costs, tariffs costs, shipping raw materials cost, which japan has none of anyhow, and the end result was it was far more profitable to build the plants here than pay the costs to have the cars made in japan or where ever they were making them, or to simlify it, the board of directors in charge of the corporation decided more profit was to be made in a change of operations as to where the plants were located, no different than cat is doing now, just this go around, canada loses and someone else wins, I"m sure japanese workers were not happy when it was decided by corporate headquareters of honda, nissan, toyota manufacturing or whoever was moving to the usa, but the usa workers were thrilled, where was honda's social repsonsibility to its workers in japan that lost out, plants shut down or were relocated, towns that lost potential jobs, growth, revenue, future plant expansions, added plants, more workers hired to staff these plants, ship the cars and trucks, the list is endless of losses, for ever job here, someone over there lost out of that job. You can say all you want about, yea, but its an increase in jobs, more plants than before, more workers, etc, etc, etc, but it didn't happen in their country or for their people who already worked for the company, those workers relatives lost out on jobs that never happended in that country. Social responsibity sounds good, but the reality is all companies are both good at it as well as bad at it, depending on where your at and what the board of directors decides, its a somewhat made up term to make one feel good, and it sounds good for public relations and the media, if I'm wrong, explain how and why. As for noone giving a flying .... about communities, I"d have to agree with you, no corporation does, your community does though, its people do, not someone in another country though, they care only about their own community, not yours. Thats why you want people in power to represent your community for you to deal with these companies, you need to do the same, at your local level, in your workplace, in negotiations with your employeer, everyone around you, don't kid yourself, no company is different than any other, they are all profit driven, if you, your town, your area cost any company more money than make, your days are numbered, if nobdody has told you this, its true, beside all the media hype about caring, enviromentially friendly, safety oreinted, whatever, profit drives it all, by implementing safety policies at any plant, the company gains in dollars saved in accidents, fines, whatever. They can claim whatever reason they want, the media will protray some companies as enviromentally friendly, sure, but there were survey's done to see it those claims will generate dollars in sales from someone, they profited in dollars for spending those dollars or implementing anythingj, cats no different in this case either, survey's were done to either close the plant, relocate it, add the line to some other plant, scale down several plants and combine them, build an entirely new facitly somewhere else, you name it, profit drove them to decide it, not caring for anyone, or anything, no different than honda, toyota, or dozens of other companies.
Randy88 I could not of articulated my thoughts on to paper better myself. Just would like to add a few extra thoughts. Before you start tearing Cat apart make sure that your pension or personal investments don't contain Cat stock. Because every choice that makes Cat more money makes you money also. Cat is a very profitable company today but I'm sure this was always not true. So when the times ran lean for Cat how many folks stood up and demanded a pay cut and increase in price in all finished product. The double standered is funny if not sad.
Randy88 I don't think anyone in London is not losing gracefully as you call it. In fact, the workers & politicians & even the Union leaders there actually wished the workers & the city of Muncie Indiana well! You can check the local media in London & research it yourself if you doubt me. Everyone knows that Muncie & the surrounding community has been beaten up pretty badly with plant closings & job losses. Its not about I or WE or US in fact its about ALL of US,Yourself included & I think that is the whole purpose of my posts is to enlighten & educate people of what theses HIGHLY profitable NOT in trouble global corporations are truly capable of & as you have already said,they don't care about you or me or ANYONE else EXCEPT their beloved PROFITS. That Electromotive plant has been making locomotives for 40 years & all of a sudden Cat buys it & they cant make any money, come on. The workers in London thought they had finally been given a gift by being bought by the worlds largest ( in H.E.)& most profitable & not in dire straights company & the future was looking BRIGHT. People did the usual & bought better items & new vehicles only to be held hostage of accepting a 50% wage cut or Cat movin on...(FACT)... As for the Japanese car manufactures they NEVER went into the U.S. or CANADA & bought companies & plants & gave people hope just to close the ____ doors! They built new plants & did not buy old ones just to close them as did that wonderful Cat outfit to reduce the competition as John C has said. They decided to invest in the markets that they compete in which has helped their market share immensely. We all beat up the imports but you've got to admit its been a very smart way to do business here in North America. The Japanese automakers have almost as many workers as the big three do here now & I must admit they have very little Labour trouble & pay good competitive wages & benefits as the big three. Also,they NEVER closed any plants in Japan to build plants in N.A. like Cat has done in this case. As Ive already said,Cat has the pockets & the technical know how to develop their own locos instead of buying up the competition & closing plants,why did they not just build in Muncie & start doing it, NO they have to cause grief & disppaire to familys & communities.
61BG, first off, yes your posts enlighted us all on whats going on, no doubt there, but as far a profits being the almighty thing to these companies, the answer I see is YES, it always has always will be, same as anyone else, as for what cats doing to make a profit, first off, yes locomotive was a profitable company by whats been stated here, but cat purchased it, it wasn't given to them to assume the role of owner, they paid for it, past history of money making is not an issue here, its what the current owner paid and his costs is the issue at hand. Just because the house you live in the prior owner had paid for and saved a lot of money and put it in the bank retired a weathy person doen'st mean you can do the same thing, even if you had the same job as he did, it does't work llke that for anyone on anything. The prior owner had things paid for, built up his operation over time, expanded market share, sold more units as time went along, hired more workers than they had the day they started, developed new business relationships, etc, etc, etc, it didn't happen overnight, cat came in and bought them out lock stock and barrel, to get the product, not the plant, I can prove it by cats actions, if they wanted the plant and its people, they wouldn't be manufactuing the locomotives anymore, but would retool the plant to build a totally new product, maybe dozers or whatever, that didn't happen, they were after the product, which costs far more than the facilities, thus making the plant no longer profitable to them over the prior owners, if in doubht watch over time, first off "IF" the plant is sold, it'll get sold for pennies on a dollar of the total purchase price of the whole deal, if not, they'll sit on to guarantee nobody will build or buy it to build locomotives in it ever again, the prior owners sold the product, not the plant, to the buyers the plant had virtually no value, if they could have paid far less for just the product the prior owners would have shut the plant down themselves and sold off just the facilities to whoever or rented it out, it was a package deal cat basically had to take one to get the other, which in light of that, makes your plant and its workers a liability to both the prior owner as well as the current owner, sorry to have to tell you that, but its true. If john deere or any other global company bought it, the outcome would have been the same or worse, if you can see that or not is your problem, just remember I told you the truth about it from an outsiders point of view. Now cat has its own contacts, buyers of raw materials, shippers of those materials, manufacturing methods, facilities designed for their production ideas in terms of efficiency and things, not 40 year old technology or whatever the last owner thought was the way to do things, its called management style, or a manufacturing methods, everyone has their own ideas on this, just look at plants around the world, you touched on the fact the foreign auto makers came here, yes thats true, but did they buy out an old plant, no, they already had the single most important thing in the equation, the "product" and wanted new facilities to build it in, to do things their way, not ford, gm, or dodges way, what makes them money isn't how the big three do things, same goes for cat or whoever. Every manufacturer has its own ideas, methods, contacts, bulk discounts on parts to make any end user product, cats no different, the reason they bought was two fold, to ensure no competition from locomotive and to get a ready to sell product, how they assemble the pieces of that product and with what parts from whom is cats business and where cat make its money, not locomotives ideas or contacts, the behind the scenes things that take place nobody knows about are what decides where, what and how of business, say for example, raw materials, steel, cat can purchase at a bulk discount and save trucking to get it to the plant, could turn a non profit deal into a money maker, just because the last owner had his suppliers doesn't mean they'll sell to cat for the same price as cat is paying now from its own suppliers already in place, its what makes one company more profitable than another and what drives every business "profit" without it cat wouldn't be a leading company making billions everyone wants to have a part of or think they deserve a part of it and should be given it, there are a lot of steps in the equation, the workers and town are just two of the many steps, no different than anyone else making anything. Now for buying the product, I'm not sure why this so hard to undertsand, when you buy the product, you have with a stroke of a pen, an instant product to sell on day one, not have to design, revamp, change, and you also get the marketshare on day one as well, you get it all and can move forward with everything, as they say you've jumped higher up the ladder of sucess right out of the gate and can start with cash coming in, not years or decades of devolopement and design, cats always done this, let someone else prefect it, go buy it and start sales and making the product, all manufacturers do it, john deere is another one who's good at this, they all are in fact. But lets play devils advocate here a minute and go with your idea of designing a product and selling it themselves, I'm not sure you've thought this through completely but lets say they'd do just that, and compete with locomotive in the open market. For every unit sold, say of locomotives, someone doens't sell thiers, so with competition in the marketplace, if cat sold 40% of them, potentially the former owner of this plant could have sold up to 40% less units, depending on how many manufacturers there are worldwide who make them, so for every less unit sold over time, who there at the plant was willing to give up their job, cause they weren't needed to build something someone else sold, a competator for example????? If your thinking by designing and selling their own product and competiting with locomotive cat wouldn't have hurt you, think again, it might be why the owner sold out to cat in the first place, if sales went down, it would no longer be a profitable plant so sell when the selling is good, before a downturn takes place, just an example of reasons to sell the plant at all. And to touch on the comment of no foreign auto makers closing plants there to build plants here, maybe, maybe not, I've never investigated this, but I do know this, they also didn't buy out a product here either, they have the product, vehicles and needed plants to build them, they didn't buy out gm and move into detroit, if they would have bought the competition out, I doubt they'd want the old plants sitting empty now in detroit to build new cars and trucks and hire the old gm workers either, they also didn't move into detroit and buy out and old plant sitting empty and retool it and hire fromer gm workers to run it either, they built new plants from what I've seen and have been told, and hired a totally new workforce to bulild a product most had never built before, just an observation And lastly, why the hostiity towards cat and not who's really to blame, the seller of the plant???? The former owners never set up in the contract that the plant had to run for x number of years and produce locomotives, they never protected the workers, the town or heck even the country, they left with the money in their prockets and walked away, what happended to this idea of "social responsibility", what when they sell or are about to sell, that ends just before negotitaons start?? or end?? Face it, they sold you out and nobody there wants to admit it and put the blame where it belongs, on a former trusted employer, business thats been there for decades, who people there looked up to and respected only in the end to do exactly what I've said all business's do, "profit" and sell for the hightest buck. Did they set it up so the area would benefit, no, just themselves, did they gift it to the community to run, sell to the employee's to insure it stayed locally owned and operated, no, but I bet they donated something to be remembered by though, maybe some dollars to help out those former workers in times of need, you know the need they put them in the first place. Maybe the title of this tread should have been "this is what locomotive did to its workers in the end" instead of how cats getting nasty with its workers, afterall, only the seller let the buyer in the door, if it were not for the seller, cat wouldn't be there now, just an observation.
Randy88 Why the hostility towards cat???? Have you actually read ANY of the posts here??? They were the ones that bought the plant & told the workers to take a 50% pay cut or else. Thats an ultimatum by a VERY profitable global corporation to working class people. The last employers in that plant never put that on the workers only the new owners. I cannot understand WHY anyone would come to the defense of a global monster of a company & help their excuse to crush working class people & their communities. Do you honestly think that this outfit would ever come to your defense? Read that last sentence one more time. Now that you've done that,I ask again Why would ANYONE want to defend this company with their actions in this case? Why stand up for them? Trust me pal,they will NEVER come to defend you.
Corporations are there to make a profit, the first goal of any company - mine included.:cool2 Sure Cat is a global multi-billion dollar corp but their existence is the same as any other company or worker for that matter. We all get up every morning to go to work to make a living. If you have a chance to better yourself in the industry should you be chastised for doing it? There is always two ways to look at an issue. On the current project I am working on, I got it instead of another local contractor, as these things go. I have since learned that this contractor has shut his doors because he was counting on this job to make the year. Now I am not one to say "bad for you, good for me" but if I would not have went after this project, I would have been sitting at home trying to figure out how to pay my bills. Do I have compassion? Absolutely but this is business and I put all my effort into getting it and I got it. I won't apologize for this but I do feel bad for the other guy. I see the economic world in a more capitalistic view. Competition is a healthy component of our economic system and a by-product of this is winners and losers, it's just the way the market functions. I have won some and lost many and I still put my boots on one at a time every morning and hit the road in the search of the next project. Don't get me wrong, I am not taking up for Cat. They do what they do for their own reasons but they do it with their money and that's an important thing to remember. Cat is not a charitable foundation that is in existence to help the world, they are a manufacturing corporation that is in business to build equipment and make a profit. They have shareholders that demand a return on their investment, shareholders from the richest people in the world to working class guys and gals that hold Cat shares in their retirement accounts. If Cat didn't make a return on the shareholders money, they would take their money elsewhere to invest and Cat would feel the repercussions. These repercussions could be felt on a much larger scale if Cat mis-managed their financials as more plants would be closed and more jobs lost. My personal opinion is Cat is a very well managed company that has top level management. If I had the ability to buy out my competition in order to gain market share, you can bet your bottom dollar I would do it.
61BG, yes I have read the posts here and do feel the hostility, don't quite feel its directed towards the right corporation, but maybe thats where we differ in opinons somewhat, either way, I've enjoyed chatting with you to learn about our differences, but I do have one last question for you I don't quite understand and it is as follows, why would anyone publically critize any corporation who OWNES a considerable manufacturing facility in my area, who could reopen it, or has the power to control that facility and decide not to sell it to someone who would reopen it, especially on a heavy equipment forum where I"m sure cat's reps or someone else involved in heavy euipment manufactuing could read these types of comments?? Even if you don't agree with them, what exactly does anyone there gain by doing so, is this something routinely done in your area, to put down, critize, condemb, and publically chastize a company that does something you don't agree with? Lastly, like CM I too would buy out my competition to gain market share, I also hope one day someone will want to buy me out to eliminate me as their competition, for me its called retirement and it means I've done a good enough job at what I do to keep others out of my line of work, not by force but by work ethics and reputation of the quality of work I do, weather my someday person who buys me out, keeps my old equipment is up to them, everything changes, always has always will, every day of our lives and will hopefully continue to do so till eternity, so if your not used to that idea, maybe its time to start. As for any company operting anywhere, to me as long as they obey the law set before them by the country they operate in, and even though I'm not too religious, obey the 10 commandments I've got no problems with them, and as for making billions in profit, I for one hope they all do, when they prosper so do I, I've been around when they all were going down the tubes and about to file bankruptcy and so was everyone else, I think I'll stick with prosperiety instead.
Randy88 I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You have your views that I cannot change & I have my views that you are not going to change. In the end, yes I am quite happy & I DO HOPE that some cat reps will indeed read this topic. Cat makes heavy equipment & this is a heavy equipment forum so why would I NOT post my comments here??? I mean cat does not make canoes so I would not post on a canoe forum. They also don't make appliances so I wouldn't post on an appliance forum,etc,etc,etc... The good thing is in BOTH our great lands we are allowed & entitled to freedom of speech. You, like me hope & wish for prosperity, a good point! You take care.
It's a good forum, Randy, but I don't think Cat will make a business decision based on our opinions, so don't worry too much on that score.