Hello all! I have been looking at two midsized excavators recently and i cant decide on witch is a better machine, the Cat 320D or the Volvo EC210C. :beatsme I guess im looking for advice. Does anyone know which is a better machine in general? If opinions could be backed by evidence that would be appreciated. Thanks.
Depends on the preference of the operator (or so I have been told). I was always of the school that a good operator can run anything if trained on the machines functions/abilities. I see alot more cats than our VOLVOs in my area, but I really don't have alot of field calls on the small/mid range excavators we sell (VOLVO).
They are both fantastic machines, and I can see why you're having trouble deciding. For the same price, I'd probably pick the Cat because of more comprehensive dealer service, and more plentiful parts, but the difference is small. Mechanically, Cats are great but I've heard of occasional computer glitches in the D series models. The reliability should be about the same. Get whatever you think you can get a better deal on, and whatever feels best when you run it.
My Uncle operates a 30t volvo in a bluestone quarry. Only him on it for three years since new. The cab is on its third set of mounts and there is daylight around the door everywhere. Mechanically ok but cab not so good.
volvos are great on fuel. they are usually well equipped with auxilaries, couplers, lots of filters and niceties that gives them that bit of extra life etc. I have never driven a cat, but i suspect they are equally capable. I don't think parts are any cheaper on a volvo. Good luck.
You might want to look into who you're going to have to go to for parts and service and take that into consideration before you buy.
You don't have Hitachi or Deere in your area? They also have a top notch reputation.
If I was going off of fuel, the Volvo's are very good with the fuel economy. Since everyone debates parts availability, in my area (Milwaukee) every dealer you could want is within a few miles of our shop. (except Komatsu/20min. south) Be it Cat, Volvo, or Deere, most parts are in stock or will be there in a day. So when I decided on Volvo, it was because I enjoy working with the dealer. (Aring) As for break downs, I've owned my 160 for 3 yrs. and other than fluid changes, it hasn't needed any repairs. Have I owned cat? Yes, and I still own and run Cat Dozers, but there's always a strange sense of arrogance every time I enter the dealer. Somehow, the only way they will like you is if you've been a customer for 30 yrs. or have over 1 Million dollars in Cat equipment. Just my opinion.
i hate the volvo hoes for a few reasons. the coupler on them is ridiculous, the sheet metal is tinny, and they are cramped in the cab.
penndot has some volvo excavators, and the paint on them is terrible, faded and pealing, rust spots... my '79 deere has better paint than the state's volvos.
Well he is from Okanagan which is British Columbia... Would mean the Volvo dealer is Strongco, Cat dealer is Finning, JD his Brandt Tractor, and Hitachi is Wajax. Strongco isn't exactly known for stellar service. Finning and Brandt have great service although yes Finning is a little snobby if you aren't a huge company. Wajax..... mixed reviews. I know guys that have had great service, guys that have had crap service.
I'd confirm your dealer experiences. Toromont CAT (the dealer for Central/Eastern Canada) is similarly snobby too. They've got plenty of parts, but they tend to 'ignore' smaller customers (like me). For example, I once went to inquire about some used machines they had [at their Concord location], and the attendants said that all the salespeople are busy and essentially shooed me away and told me to visit some other dealer in Cambridge. They had lots of cool equipment, but that treatment kinda pissed me off. I came to possibly spend more than the attendants annual salary and they just treated me like I didn't matter. The Nortrax (John Deere) dealer seemed more helpful and polite. I haven't bought my own excavator yet though. Strongco was alright, but nothing special. I've got no experience with Wajax.
"Strongco isn't exactly known for stellar service." ointlaugh Yeah, not exactly. Actually, i think toromont may be better in my area. I will say this. There isn't a single one of them that even comes close to even the worse ag dealer. As a farmer, i have gotten used to dealers who routinely go the extra mile, bend over backwards, and move mountains to get you going, get you parts, and just generally help you out. The CE dealers are way way behind in customer service. That said, i don't go out of my way to support them.
Sultan and Watglen... I'm originally from Ontario. I am from the Chatham Kent area. When I was a kid I remember heading to Toromont with the old man, Southwest Tractor (then Ontrac... now Nortrax). I tell ya back when it was Southwest Tractor service was great. If you needed something you could call up Steve Fisher in London or Bill Burnett in Waterloo if you needed parts. I know the old man isn't crazy about Nortrax but then again when he started dealing with them it was still Renash Tractor. If you want some service at Toromont just tell em you know Joe Fuhrer, he used to carry some weight around there lol.
I have run the volvo and cat machines side by side on the same job. The hydraulics on the volvo were not near as precise as the cat. Also, the cat was far quicker, and much more pleasureable to operate. I am not a huge cat fan by the way.
try out a linkbilt just for kicks...i,ve ran them,all cat, jd. linkbilt.hitachi.samsung.ect if not hitachi or jd great machines..
Talk with your Cat salesman to ask how the 320D fuel economy compares to its competition. For production measured in cubic meters per gallon per hour, I think the 320D stands at or near the top of its class. I used to know the Cat rep (corporate, not the dealer rep) who oversaw that area, but he's gone back to Peoria -- if you want, I can *try* to figure out who it is and maybe have him pay you a visit? This is speaking a bit beyond my direct means, but I'd be willing to give it a shot. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
I have run or have fix 90% of the equipment on the market for over 20 years, Fuel savings are huge with Volvo with the deutz motors that they use ,but be warned if you have computer issues the dealer will have to be called. They use a program called Matisse to download the data from one of the three computers it uses. Only the dealer can pull these codes, Now I am not saying Volvo is no good it’s one of my favorite pieces of equipment on the market but it is very difficult to fix any electronic issue that it may have, you cannot even use a test light on some of the problems down the road without taking the chance of burning out part of the 3 computers circuit boards and absolutely do not do any welding on a bucket attached to the unit, disconnect the bucket from the machine before welding or you blow the computer , tons of features and very well constructed ,lots of power, great seat warmers (burn your ass Hot) and you will never find another machine with as many buttons as a Volvo just put your best operator in absolute no test drivers , It’s like giving a 19 year old a Porsche not a good idea something will get broken , as for the cat 320s I have two in my yard both are older models ,the new models uses C6 C7 motor absolutely stay away from any cat using these motors they are junk tons of problems, We have three gmc multi lift trucks with these motors in them ,one had engine damage from pump issue that 600 hours left on its warranty and the other truck just blew its motor 15k to repair and the motor was 100 hours over its warranty 88000 kms what a joke ( fighting with cat over this) 2 out of 3 trucks had problems not very good product. I would pick JD /Hitachi unit or Link Belt/Case unit over the Volvo if you are not very confident with your operators, less buttons to break for the test drivers. One other thing you got to love the marker lights in the Volvo counter weight.
Blowerman, I thought I was the only one that felt that way about or local Cat dealer. I am like you, less than 30 years and only five pieces of Cat equipment. HOWEVER, they assigned a new guy to the territory I am in a little over a year ago. Really great guy!!! I may very well buy something from him when this economy thing straightens out. Goes against the grain of the previous territory guys that used to be here.
A men burnout Iron is iron they make new stuff every day but the dealer and the support is what makes you sucseed on the site. But personaly Brant tractor out of vernon is probably the best
Lots of great info here. thanks guys! how about Link-Belt? are they any good?
Well they are throw you out of your seat fast. I don't know how other people find them on precision, I liked the 210 we have for digging around fire hydrants. Had tons of hydraulic power, tons of speed, a pretty nice cab and I am 100% sure that thing ran on hopes and dreams because it didn't seem like the fuel gauge ever moved off full. But now with plenty of hours on that hoe, many operators and a rough life she isn't runnin so hot. Last time I ran into her someone had written on the door, "check anti freeze, hydraulic oil and engine oil everyday". It is our company policy to do that anyways, but this machine has buzzers to no end. It leaks everything it can leak these days.
On the Volvo 210 the wiring loom gave a lot of trouble might be no harm to see if it has been changed as it costs a small fortune.
I have quite a bit of seat time in a link belt/case/jcb. I am not impressed with their performance, although they do have Isuzu power.
I have a C series volvo with only 800 hours but it's been smooth sailing. Great machine with good power, great fuel economy, and lots of creature comforts.
What about a Komatsu in that class?
komatsu is the bomb, but they can be hard to get parts for.
I maid thisl list of my favorite equipment . New 12-18 Ton 1. Link Belt/Case/Komatsu (Best bang for the Buck) 2. Jd/Hitachi (Pay a little more good over all machines) 3. Cat/Volvo/Liebherr (Over priced not impressed with the quality of the Cat) (Volvo/Liebherr just Price) Used 12-18 Ton 1. Jd/Hitachi/Cat/Komatsu (Best bang for the Buck lots of used equipment out there) 2. Link Belt/Case (Pay a little more good over all machines) 3. Volvo/Liebherr (Good all around machine pricey they hold the value) New 20-35n Ton 1. Jd/Hitachi (Well built Lots of power and very fast) 2. Komatsu/Case/LinkBelt ( Very close to #1 JD/Hitachi Feels a little better built) 3. Volvo/Liebherr/Cat (Volvo/Liebherr Great machine Just price is a factor/ Stay away from any Cat with C6-C7 engine) Used 20-35 Ton 1. Jd/Hitachi/Cat (Well built Lots of power, lots of used equipment out there best value) 2. Komatsu/Case/LinkBelt (Well built Lots of power, Not as many available,Cost Will Be higher) 3. Volvo/Liebher (Good all around machine pricey they hold the value) New 40-60 Ton 1. JD/Hitachi (Well built Lots of power and very fast) 2. Cat/Komatsu/Case/LinkBelt (Very close to #1 JD/Hitachi Feels a little better built) 3. Volvo/Liebherr (Volvo/Liebherr Great machine Just price is a factor) Used 40-60 Ton 1. Jd/Hitachi/Cat (Well built Lots of power, lots of used equipment out there best value) 2. Komatsu/Case/LinkBelt (Well built Lots of power, Not as many available, Cost will be higher) 3. Volvo/Liebher (Good all around machine pricey they hold the value) Just remember to factor distance for parts and sevice Hope this helps
Not all CAT C6/C7 engines are bad. In my experience, they're just as good as any other engine, but like all newer engines, they suffer from occasional electronic gremlins. I like the consistent quality of Deere/Hitachi throughout the size range, but I'd personally prefer a CAT between 12 and 50 tonnes. I haven't tried any newer big CATs but I hear many suffer from electronic issues.
Awesome info there. that helps alot!
what is it about Komatsu excavators that are so awesome? I dont have much experience around them. but they seem reliable. how do their controls feel?
They are the only true load sensing hydraulics on the market. When you get on one that is properly adjusted you just melt into the seat and become part of the machine. They are also designed to wear out everything at the same time. When the engine is worn out, so are the pumps, hydraulic motors and wiring harnesses. They can get some electrical gremlins at times that will leave you scratching your head in disgust. Parts are very expensive now days. From new they usually run 5,000 to 8,000 hours with few problems. Get over 10,000 hours on one without something being rebuilt and you could be looking at some serious cash to keep it running for long. I've always liked working them, especially since the gray market machines essentially paid for my house.
Not to be rude but I thought Komatsu Excavators were popular because they were cheap. (At least in the 20-30 ton range). Maybe just a myth.
I agree with you 100% on that. Komatsu excavators with under 8000 hours are great and very reliable machines, but once they are at 10-12k hours, everything is usually shot and they need to be replaced. A young Komatsu will be more reliable than a young cat. I like cat because they do give occasional problems, even when young, but you can keep them chugging along into 20k+ hours. Recently I ran a 330CL with 21k hours and it still worked just like new. Super smooth, super strong, perfect engine condition etc.
cheap and komatsu don't even belong on the same page.:roll
I'll second that. My experience is they are a premium unit, built extra strong, lots of features, power, speed. But expensive. I follow the auctions, and i would say that after cat, they carry the next best resale.
Just do Google search on problems with Cat C6-7 motors. I have 2 Multi-lift trucks that had 2 dynamited motors do to pump problems one luckily had 500 hours left on warranty and the other blew 100 hours over warranty , same cause bad pump ,the Cat service rep I have been dealing with has been great but he has even said these C6-7 are dog motors. right now I'm in 15k worth of work and not even sure that cat will cover it on warranty. I have another dump truck in the yard that has no problems yet with the same motor, we will be purchasing extended warranty on this truck . 1 out of 3 , and you say " Not all CAT C6/C7 engines are bad" your right less then 35% are good, one last thing right now 90% of the equipment we have is cat I'm not trying to bad mouth the brand but if a product has issues like what I have been dealing with for the past couple of months them you have to really question the product , Cat is fully aware of the issues with these motors but has done nothing to recall then or inform the end user of possible issues with there product, this is negligent. Right now I would be very surprised if we ever purchase other cat product again unless it's two good of a deal to let go.
its really too bad about those damned engines. Cats seem like good machines, but i have heard quite a few stories about their declining quality... im now getting the feeling Hitachi/JD are the ones to beat for excavators. i could be wrong though.
I think that list is pretty subjective...
Maybe you could point out some of the sites, then: I googled "Cat C6 problem" "Cat C6 C7 problem" "Caterpillar C6 problem" "Caterpillar C6.6 problem" and didn't see anything on the first page that suggested that there is a widespread issue with them (nothing even from forums, where such complaints would surface). I can easily be wrong, of course, but I didn't find anything in a quick search. Perhaps I didn't search hard enough, but I would have expected something on the first page if this was a serious issue. I hate to be so confrontational about this, but I do believe that your issues are hardly representative of the entire mid-range engine population. I'd invite you to contact Toromont and ask specifically to talk to the district rep in your area (or the sales development manager) if you feel there's a problem.
Well if you must know Tigerotor.... I know of a serious issue with all of those engines. I heard a nasty rumor and I have even seen it myself that these engines don't run on hopes and dreams. You have to constantly put fuel in them... all the time jeez. :duh
I'd go with a CAT over a Volvo just out of sheer personal preference.
Haha, well glad to see I'm not totally insane... although this fuel thing, I thought pixie dust existed for a reason? Good lord I sounded like a dbag when I typed that reply! Ooops. Didn't mean to be so rash, Xx...
I would have to go with Volvo, but I am partial I work for a dealer, we are selling alot of exc. and we are having very few problems.
I guess I'm not alone. XxTrasHxX, you may have gotten unlucky and gotten lemons, and maybe the C7 is somewhat less reliable than other CAT engines, but there is no such major flaw in these engines. There are tens of thousands of C6 and C7 engines out there, but I rarely hear of problems with them. Suggesting that only "less then 35% are good" is completely absurd. P.S. Tigerrotor, you're right about that flaw - CAT engines generally burn more fuel than their oriental counterparts; but I find they (or at least the older ones I have more experience with) usually last longer than the oriental engines too.
Tigerotor77W These are just my own personal opinions on dealing with the new cat motors, its fine if you don't agree, its all about personal preference .As for talking to Toromont I do 3 times a week for the last couple months and with cat warranty directly, but right now we are 15k in the hole and hopefully the parts will be covered by cat warranty to get some money back also this is not even including the loss in production from having a piece of equipment down for a couple of months. The list based on my person experience running and repairing heavy equipment for the past 20+ years and that's why its subjective, maybe you can make a list of your favorite equipment in the different classes post it so that MrAndrew1907 can get more then 1 opinion. I'm just trying to help. "Opinions are like a-s holes ,everyone's got one"
No worries mate, I agree with you. I just didn't think it was fair to put a fairly broad warning across all C6 (or C6.6, really) or C7 engines. I hope you can get it worked out with Toromont -- and again, try asking for one of the Cat reps. I don't know what the formality is to get ahold of one, but usually they're good people and a great deal of fun.
I understand your frustrations and I hope all goes well with your machines and Toromont. Having expensive machinery down for months is very painful. As Tigerotor said though, I don't think it's fair to label all C6/C7 engines bad given your [surprisingly bad ] individual situation.
Correction - the Volvo dealer in BC is GREAT WEST. Strongco has Ontario-east and Alberta. There's lots of comments about computers and diagnostic systems. I think these are quite comparable on any new machine today. There are differences in fuel consumption and quality of construction but it varies by machine. Bottom line, most mainline brands have a lot of technology and good quality. What differs is some functionality, the degree of "bells and whistles", and the quality of service/support standing behind the machine. You have to decide if any of the bells/whistles have real value to you or not. Most importantly, take time to learn the dealerships. Every machine breaks down. Getting it running and reliable in the longterm will depend on the people you deal with and the company(s) standing behind them. It's an investment and you want to get what you pay for.
Good post. How are things in NC? I know I'm a Cat guy usually (though I won't be working there after graduation), but I can't help but wonder how the competition sees Cat. I'd love to get in touch and chat if you ever have the time.
I don't actually drive heavy equipment but I work in the pipeline industry. The most common equipment here is cat, followed by Volvo then the odd komatsu, hitachi, case etc. I have to say, the cat dump trucks are bloody ugly as hell, especially the 740 with a black grille. Looks awful. Also the cat side booms are noisy. The Volvos just seem way more refined. Many of the operators do prefer the refinement after 12 hour days.