Hey hef I'm having a fuel issue on a 3056e it's in a mccloskey trommel screen once fuel system is bleed and a little ether it's good to go but it's a pain to bleed it's not low on power doesn't run hot. we changed rubber fuel lines and lift pump and lots of filters. It has a ball valve fuel shut off that we have been turning off thinking it was draining back doesnt really help. They installed electric fuel pump that helps bleed it faster but even if you let it run 5 mins before cranking it won't start with out ether and bleeding it starts normal if it doesn't sit long any suggestions welcome
Next time buy a Deere? :tong
Thanks lantrax how much do you normally charge for that kind of diagnosis? Lol yeah john deere does make a simple easy to work on engines but where is the fun in that ? BTW So are morookas animal powered? Or maybe cummins ? Deutz? Kohler?
Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself. Most of my advice is free, that way what the customer gets is worth what they paid for it, yeah? You name it Morooka has used it, Several Cats, some Cummins, Hino, Mitsubishi, Kubota, Isuzu, komatsu and the few I built in the States actually are Deere powered, lol. The 3056e is a Perkapillar, no?
Haha I lIke the advice. I think the morookas would be a sweet little rental nitch in my neck of the woods. But I ain't got no money and i don't like dealing with customers so..... maybe I just want one for fun. Great for transporting bodies though the woods, taking garbage out or moving hay bails. Yeah its a perkapilliar like a computer controlled carburetor let's take old tried and true and slap a whole bunch of electronic parts we have laying around on it. I like old school or new school not both. But anyways I'm thinking oh boy maybe I got air in fuel and when it sits it just separating and leaving a air pocket? But why is it so hard to bleed this pos? Old school 3406 if it's bleed good pops right off take newer c series like a 9 or 15 bleed good pops right off. 3408 two dry filters it starts wait for it to die. Crank about 15 secs and good to go these perkapilliars bleed your brains out and they still a pain.
OK so first things first. Can you tell us the history of the problem. Has it always been there? Did it suddenly happen? Did it happen following some repairs? AND ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓
S/n- 35601888 about a year ago they bought it and supposedly it was starting good. For few days. Then it wouldn't start one morning. Had good supply of transfer fuel. Seller sends cat up to change injection pump. Now I didn't know this till months later but cat tech started it on either and said that was normal after having fuel system open. On and off over last year they ask me to work on it but never give me enough time to really get into a diagnosis just change a part and leave kind of deal. According to operate every day since pump was changed it needs ether in the am. But now it's much worse won't start with out bleedin supply to injection pump bedding injectors and ether.
If it needs bleeding every morning then you have to assume an air leak or check valve problem somewhere. Check all the fuel line connections, the lift pump lid gasket and the fuel filter to filter head seal. Needing ether to start is a different matter however. Has anyone looked at it with ET for fault codes? Maybe recheck the timing. Does it have much blowby? These injection pumps should not be run dry. If it has a history of being cranked without fuel in the pump it may be damaged.
Hello cmark you were right not starting seems to not be fuel related. After going though the whole fuel system we still seem to have air in fuel but it doesn't seem to be enough to affect. The injection pump is still under warranty for about a week so customer had our local cat dealer that originally installed the pump take over. Two techs about half a day went though it with fine tooth comb. They found resistance low on a wire between ecm and pump. I changed wiring harness and it started good I let it run fir 15 mins. Remove my fuel sight gauge and installed the new water separater housing. Wouldn't start. After I bleed fuel to injection pump( straight fuel no air. Then pumped a bunch more. Bleed all injectors did have some air but still wouldn't start. 2 sniffs of either and it started. But I was get a lil smoke while cranking witch I never had before whole cranking. Later in the day I restarted and seem to crank for a while maybe 10 seconds but it started smooth not on one cylinder or chugging. Will know more monday. Thanks for your comments seems I either jump around to much or get stuck on one thing like the air in return fuel line. Is there something in the et I'm missing where you can watch ecm fire the injection pump? Like watching the milliseconds a electronic injector is get power?
Update still doesn't start right. Local cat dealer changed injection pump. Still starts hard ( cranks no smoke not trying to fire then for what ever reason starts ) it will try to fire or run on ether for short bursts. I think ecm is not sending correct signals but cat dealer doesn't think it's the ecm. Man what a pain in the $$ book.
This is a Bosch vp30 if I recall. A vp30 pump only needs a power supply and ground to start, but it will only idle. A pulse signal is required for throttle control. You can start a vp30 without the ECM , I have a test rig made out of an old harness to eliminate ECM wiring issues in no start conditions. Make sure the banjo bolt for the return line at pump is an orfice type. If the fuel system is requiring prime each time then I would say the problem is not electrical, no mention of fault codes. I have only dealt with a couple of the 3056e engines , but heaps of the teir 2 cummins which has the same injection pump. I have had some I never did find where the leak back was. I installed a fuel check valve just prior to the lift pump as a temporary fix and never got called back. Cheap and effective.
This little thing still has trouble. But if it 70 degrees plus and block heater is plugged it will pop right off. If it's not plugged in it won't start with out ether. When I get back to it I'm going to take old harness and put power and ground to injection pump and also I have some check valves for fuel this one is odd. Cat had 2 pretty sharp techs up. I worked on it and also a mccloskey tech. 95 percent of fuel system has been changed at least once. And almost every test we could come up with. I'm sure its fixable but it might take a day or two with no interruptions
What is the cranking speed when it won't start? Does it have an intake air heater? Is it working? Not sure you've said if there are any fault codes? If it starts good at 70 degrees with the block heater then the problem sounds like it's not fuel related! Sounds a bit like low compression, have you cut an oil filter open to see what's in it or taken an oil sample?
Long shot. Same trommel, same engine, same problem. Anyone know if this one ever got fixed?
Voltage to injection pump is low with it cranking voltage drops below 9.6volts then it won't start whole new starting system 2 new injection pumps harnesses and other misc. Still needs ether to start. If I run a jumper wire backing feeding pump then it will start. If it totally quite I could fix it but until then only get couple hours every few months to work on it.
Voltage load protection module it's probably bad or isn't getting power and ground. The way they run the grounds on the trommel side is stupid. The e stops control and relay that controls the fuel pump relay but both power and ground goes through the ( vlpm )
Hi man. I have the same problem please can you tell me exactly how did you solve it?? I tried everything but to no avail, Help me please thank you in advance!...
On the vp44 pump back probe power and ground wire and when cranking check power and ground. Mine was ground wires where hooked to starter stud and the round tube like voltage regulator above ecm was bad I had bad ground and low power to injection pump
What are you working on? The Cat 930 with that engine here was 24 volts same back prob test as mentioned but requires about 18 or 19 volts. Might be best to start a new post. Have you read the Cat 930G no start threads?
I have the same issue with this motor on a mcCloskey trommel. Have one all the normal stuff fuel filters etc. Tries to cough if i preheat for 60 seconds. But that is it, sounds like a common issue with this motor. anyone kinda figured it out ? I tried giving it some either and it will try but not keep running.
Tube style voltage regulator sits above ecm controls ground and power to injection pump. Best it so check power and ground at pump when trying to start
That works. Do not have pins to connect info at home. The cover has to be removed from the pump electrical connector for that. These engine fuel line systems are also harder to bleed than most anything else.
Hi! to follow on from the above...Intermittent starting issue on chafer mirage crop sprayer with CAT 3056e engine. Couple of previous fault codes that will not go away (ECU update was suggested but not yet got round to it) and new fault code "fuel temp signal loss". The engine stopped dead whilst driving on the road. A booster pack was then used to start it. Drove fine. Booster pack removed and I stopped engine, it would not restart. Left overnight with batteries charging, started fine in the morning. Left running for a while and then I cut the engine and would not restart. Wiring issue somewhere I presume...but where to start?!
I have heard of some people that were not happy after ECU updates on road trucks with Cat"s. Therefore I would not rush into that. Know nothing about your fuel temp signal loss. Maybe someone else or search for an online manual for your machine. Suggest you start by checking voltage in and out of the voltage control module. Thank you need at least 18V going to the pump while cranking.
Anyone know of a deere replacement for this motor. Ours finally gave up the goat. Ether every time for start up didnt help. i hate like heck to repower it with another Perkapillar.
Having same issue cat perkins 3056e with pump vp30 on a 924G no codes just needs a little ether a small bump and it will start while running no problems or codes any one have luck?
That is a common issue with the vp30. Not enough crank speed, Fuel supply issue filters supply pump etc. The vp30 also has an inlet vane pump internally. In some cases it can be timing issue internal to the pump as well.
Thanks for replying quickly, I didn't have the original cat timming tool just timed from the crank with degree wheel any ideas to time the 4°. The pump just came from the shop could it be a low voltage or a ground
When I mentioned timing, that pump uses the pressure from the vain pump to turn a rotor to advance and retard the timing. If you have the the electrical pin out for the injection pump, you can provide power and ground to the pump with the harness plug undone. The engine will them start but only idle. This isolates the pump so if the issue remains the pump needs replacing.
Ok thanks for the info going to try that on monday
Funny I should run across this particular thread. I also have a McCloskey with a 3056e that will not start. Guess I'll follow thru with some additional troubleshooting. Pump is a 2644P502 12v as well. Must be a common problem, but I didn't see a posted fix on this thread.
There is no fix, that's the problem. The ECM needs to see over 10.5 volts to open the fuel solenoid, and when you're cranking it falls below that. We usually boost ours every morning and it starts eventually. We've add 2 extra CAT batteries and an auxiliary fuel pump. We also close the valves from the hydraulic tank as well.
I'll be checking that, for sure. Just put fresh hot batteries on it, so if the voltage is down I'll look for poor connections or cabling. Starter is new so I don't expect excessive draw-down.
There is a screen inside of the transfer pump has anyone checked it for being plugged? it is under the top cap held on with one bolt
No, I don't believe so. This machine has been largely ignored for about a year. Getting to need it, so taking a fresh look. Here are the current codes: 174 Fuel Temperature Sensor 02: Erratic,Intermittent, Or Incorrect 342 Secondary Engine Speed Sensor 02: Erratic,Intermittent, Or Incorrect 102(4) Boost Pressure Voltage Low(25) 1684 Fuel Injection Pump 14: Special Instruction 1684 Fuel Injection Pump 10: Abnormal Rate Of Change
guys I have a simple stupid fix to try. Put a diode isolated side battery, nothing big but the cranking cannot pull it down because of how you isolate it. You can try with literally a lawnmower battery and some jumper wire.
I think I would check harness
Seems easy enough to verify that it is able to hold voltage at the solenoid then if it is not, jumper a battery in and see. Then the problem could be a harness issue if the aux battery worked. Possibly bad connection.
I'd have to say that with so many posting about this issue, it is just a bad design rather than a defect.
I would agree at this point. Those pumps aren't cheap from a quick Google. Hate to throw good money at it. Guess I'll try tracking down some diagrams and pinouts.
Maybe Nige could find you 1684 Fuel Injection Pump 14: Special Instruction
lol...yeah if it wasn't 0200 for him. Maybe he will see this tomorrow. @Nige
hmm a short wait might save you a lot of aggravation
Patience I got.
You called............?? If you want an electrical schematic then as usual an engine Serial Number would help tremendously. Attached troubleshooting for 1684 FMI14 & FMI10
And here are the ones for the other three Codes. I may be wrong but I get the impression that low voltage, as discussed earlier, might well be at the heart of all of these.
I found the cure to our issue. we repowered with a Deere 6068
Nige, the SN is 35604554.
Anything special about R&R on these Bosch VP30 pumps? My local people can't rebuild it due to the electronics, but they can bench test it. All things point to the module right now, so off it comes!
The engine has to be timed before pump removal. Also the water pump has to be removed. See the attachment.
Thank you, once again, Nige. I knew about the timing, but not for sure the water pump. I guess it would have been apparent once the job started. The document is valuable.
Very nice! we are just about to re-power ours with a rebuilt mechanical 3056 we found on market place.
Bosch VP pumps suck. That's all I have to add.