We have a Caterpillar 308 that started acting up a few days ago. It will run a couple hours then quit. It will start right back up then stall again. If we let it set a few minutes it will start and run about ten minutes the stall again. The operator thought it ran out of fuel when it first uit but it was only low. So far they have replaced the fuel filters and the fuel hoses from the tank to the main filter, blown the dirt from the radiator and coolers, checked the air filter and made sure the fuel tank is clean. There is no sign of dirt in the fuel.
Have they looked inside the passages in the filter heads.? That will need all the fittings removing and either compressed air or a piece of wire run through them. Drained water & sediment from the plug on the underside of the tank.? Vent in tank cap working OK.? To look at the fuel system in a bit more detail would need a Serial Number. I see maybe 50 different models of 308.
The cap vent is clear. Tank is clean. I just got involved in this, the operator was taking care of it. I just don't understand why it runs fine for tthree or four hours before it messes up.
Passages in the filter head and checking the fittings into & out of the head would be the logical next step.
When it quits does it sputter to a stop or die just as though the key was turned off.?
I'm going to ask what maybe a silly question......... Any codes coming from the ECM (if it has one)?? Other questions that pop into my head........when the machine dies, is the machine 'working' hydraulic functions being operated?? Or is the machine sitting with no load on the engine?? Engine throttled up or at low rpm's?? I just went through this on a 316 where the owner and operator were chasing a suspected fuel issue.......it was a pressure relief solenoid valve on the hydraulic pump that wasn't operating causing the machine to stall out when under load. Get us the serial number please......as Nige suggested.
Ok guys. They sent me the number It's a. 308E2 CR Serial number CAT0308EPFJX08192 It starts cold in the morning (it's been in the low 20s here in the morning) runs fine between 2 and 4 hours then sputters and dies. It will start right back up but due in a few seconds. If left sit a half hour or so it will run about fourteen minutes then sputter and die. I thought maybe electrical connector heating up and getting loose but that usually happens in 20 minutes from a cold start and not two hours .
I dunno about anyone else but those sound like classic fuel starvation signs to me. I'm not sure about this particular fuel filter assembly but some have a small O-Ring that fits over the spigot in the underside of the head where the fuel filter element mounts. Make sure that's there (if applicable). In some cases it has been known for the old O-ring to be left on and a second one fitted. No O-rings or two - the end result is just as bad, When the machine dies after 4 hours try removing the inlet line to the fuel filter at elbow #2 and turn on the key. Does the pump spew fuel out of the line coming into the fuel filter.? If not go back to the pump outlet and try there. To check the passages in the fuel filter head the fittings #1, 2, & 4 (plus any other plugs that may be there) need to be removed then blow through all the passages with compressed air or rod them out with a length of wire. Check the two fittings #1 & 2 for the inlet fuel line VERY carefully to make sure they are 100% clear.
Thank you for the serial number. Need to hit the shower and change for daughters banquet right now. Nige's comment jarred my memory. I don't have time righ tnow to look it up........does this have piezo electric fuel pump/ transfer pump?? I've ended up replacing a bunch of those because they were worn out. They 'buzz' LIKE they are working, but aren't actually pumping fuel. Like Nige said, take a line off and see if the transfer pump is actually putting out a good quantity of fuel. I've had machines that the pump isn't working but the machine still ran. Only found out about the fuel pump being bad after changing fuel filters and the bowl doesn't fill up. That transfer pump is designed to fill the system after fuel filter changes. Again, sorry.....no time to look it up. I'll do it tonight after.
How many hours on the machine??
The transfer pump is working good, plenty of fuel. I checked that. Someone else changed the filters but the problem started before they were changed. Sounds like starvation to me too. I even replaced the fuel hoses from the tank to the main filter thinking maybe one had deteriorated inside, I've seen that a few times. They did tell me that some kind of filter or such in the fuel tank had fallen apart
The only thing the tank has is a strainer in the filler neck. Is that what they were talking about.? Provided that plenty of fuel is getting through the lines to the elbow #2 at the inlet port of the fuel filter then a look into the elbow itself and the passages inside the head of the filter assembly would be the logical next step. Might be a stupid question but has an inline filter been added somewhere out of sight that could be restricting the fuel flow.?
There is an inline between the tank and transfer pump. Im getting good fuel to the filter.
In that case the filter head passages and fittings would be the next stop. The installed inline filter is rated for diesel I hope.? A lot of the parts store offerings are only rated for gasoline and will collapse over time when exposed to diesel.
Bob, Shot in the dark here. So your dealing with an intermittent problem.........runs fine for hours, then dies. And it sounds like your trouble shooting remotely a little bit. There is a foot valve on your machine, by the fuel tank. It's #6 in the PDF I attached. Could be something got in there and is keeping from working?? Nige touched on the inline fuel filter........and you state the fuel pump is working and pumping fuel. What I would try, before tearing into the whole fuel rail system; is plumbing up a seperate container of fuel (different fuel source). Run a hose from the fuel pump suction into a CLEAN container of fuel. If that solves the problem then you have isolated to the tank and suction side of the fuel system.
Changed fuel filters? Even the inline screen? 1G-7206 1) the Cat one is translucent. You can check its condition visually B) do NOT use a cellulose aftermarket inline filter in its place. No matter what the cross references tell you. Screen only.
Yes, all filters are OEM. As you said remote fuel tank is next step. I had to do that on a truck once. Also I didn't change the fuel hose from the filter to the injection pump yet. Yes. I'm fixing remotely a bit but going on site tomorrow again. Im going to try a remote tank if i can get a container strapped down safe. They are doing demolition and that is a lot more violent than than digging. I have the container and bought new hose already. Slso the only codes it had were an overload and a hydro fluid overheat but they were old history. My fluid is running about 99f.
Good to tick that box. Honestly for the amount of work involved I would suggest going into the filter head and the fittings for a look before rigging up a temporary tank.
I dunno, Nige. If the inline screen is present, the filter heads are suspect for debris. Id like to see the inline screen condition.
You’re right. If the online screen is working the way it should then large size particles shouldn’t be able to get as far as the filter, but stranger things have happened. I was thinking the filter head/fittings would be much simpler to check/eliminate before rigging up a temporary tank.
The old inline was aftermarket paper type but was clean. It has a new OEM inline and new OEM main filter. Im at the site now. It ran great for a couple hours before it sputtered anc died. Now if we leg it sit 30 minutes it will run fine for 13 1/2 to 14 minutes before it dies Also today it threw an E878 code for the hydro oil overtemp
Has anyone removed the secondary fuel filter immediately after it dies.? Is the canister full of fuel or empty, or somewhere in between.? If the former inline filter(s) were aftermarket is there any possibility that one of them may have started to fail at some point and permitted either particles in the fuel or from the filter itself to head in the direction of the secondary filter head & fittings.?
I checked the secondary yesterday, blew out the in/out passages. All clear, the filter is full. I only have two filters on the machine. A small inline and the main filter/water trap. I talked to Cat tech and they said there had been problems with the fuel injectors quitting when hot also the fuel suction control valve failing. I sprayed the connectors to the valve and the fuel temp sensor and it ran 20 minutes after a 30 minute cool off instead of 14 minutes
Aren't intermittent problems FUN!!LOL Well, your getting warmer. Is the fuel suction control valve at the tank?? I'll have to look the fuel diagram tonight. Ok.........so it runs for a period after the cool down. Where ever the fuel suction control valve is..........after the machine dies after you've been running it.......disconnect a supply line and see if the pump is still supplying fuel. If it is, then the suction valve is failing. As for ALL of the injectors failing at the exact same time while its running.......I'd be suspect of that. I think the worst you'd encounter would 1 failing while running. AND A GOOD TIMES WAS HAD BY ALL!! LOL Keep us posted........thank you for keeping us informed.
The SCV is on the pump. It uses PWM to regulate fuel volume gong into the high pressure pump. I think caterpillar calls it something else.
Is this the one you're referring to.? #5 is just listed as 452-2912 Valve As, part of the 436-1091 FIP Group.
Yup. Somewhat common failures on high mileage common rail Isuzu NPR trucks, with the 4hk1 motors. But, IIRC, they just smoke and lose power. On a duramax diesel, it's called an FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator).
452-2912 prices out at $385.46 at Milton CAT I think, if it were me; I'd replace that valve. Heymccall seems to have experience with those valves, and you've got CAT Tech saying they've had problems with those valves. Factor in your time traveling and messing around with the fuel system.........probably a good bet that's the problem. Fire one of those in there and see what happens. Should come with the O ring to seal it to the pump........based on SIS lookup.
Tests 2 & 3 in the second image can be done without ET.
The Monitor Panel can also be used to pull up Diagnostic Codes. See attached. It might be interesting to compare what's there when the machine is cold before startup and what's there when it dies once everything is heat-soaked.
I pulled the codes several times. I get one for hydro oil too hot automatic shutdown and such but the Cat tech says this vode is not for my model????? . Yes the suction control valve is what used to be called the fuel shut off solenoid but now us pulsewidth modulated.
Care to share it with us.? Does that Code happen to pop up right at the time the engine shuts down.?
It is E878. It pops up and also throws a warning flag on the dash but it doesn't happen all the time. Seems funny though that it isn't supposed to pertain yo our machine. Also, according to our dash we are running 99f and that code is supposed to throw at a hotter temp.
Not unusual. It happens often that there are "gaps" in service data where an Event that is not listed for a particular model shows up on the monitor panel. I'm sure that this is the case for yor machine too. E878 triggers at 95 DegC with rising hydraulic oil temperature. I find it very hard to believe that the hydraulic oil temperature when your machine is operating is only 99 DegF, I think it might just be 99 C. Either way the E878 Event will not shut the machine down - carry on.
Im going to look st my panel Monday because it might have been switched to C instead of F. Hey one thing, the machine will start and run with the SCV unplugged
That seems to confirm what the SysOp says. Start at Page 5.
I think its a psy op condition............its designed to psych you out and drive you crazy. Nige, your tenacious and uncanny ability to look up relevant info is surpassed by none. Thank you for all you do. Bob........if you let it sit for the weekend, will the machine run for hours and then die until you let it cool down for a bit?? Or after sitting for a weekend, will it only run for a short period of time and then die?? What other codes were on there other than hyd oil?? Does the panel show first and last occurrence?? How many times it occurred?? Do you have access to a laptop with ET and a comm adapter to plug into the machine?? How many hours on the machine?? Have you rigged up and run an alternate fuel supply yet?? How are the fuel tank vent filters?? Have those been changed recently?? After the machine dies, have you tried popping the fuel tank cap and see if the tank is in vacuum??
Is this the fuel cap you have?? If so, there is no serviceable fuel cap breather filter. I know you said in your second or 3rd post that the fuel tank is clean. We need to slice this up into sections to trouble shoot the problem. Take the fuel tank and lines from the tank out of the equation. Does the machine run on a seperate fuel supply?? If YES.........then the problem is in the fuel tank. If NO.......then we look further down stream and keep trouble shooting.
How about this for an idea.? Let it run from cold until it shuts down the first time then pull the connector off the SCV valve, crank it up and see what happens
I have a feeling its something simple and stupid..........easy to jump right to the complicated. But whatever...........let me know how it works out. Bob stated it runs for hours, then sputters and dies. Let it sit for a bit, starts, runs, dies..........could be a fuel tank going into VAC.......no??
It could be, but according to Bob the filter bowl of the secondary filter/water separator is always full of fuel when the engine dies.
It starts and runs 2 to 3, maybe 4 hours every morning and some mornings it has been in the low 20s. We thought about tank vacuum so ran it without the cap. It is back home now but may go out in the morning I'm hoping to get an fellow to the machine with his computer before it leaves again. I need parameters. Also a snapshot would be great.
If your guy has Cat ET then ask him to download a copy of the Product Status Report in pdf format. That might shed some light.
Im not familiar with product status
Please elaborate
I think this video explains it pretty well.
I vant bring the video up good on my phone. I'll have to watch it on my PC. Im, thinking it may be a simplified version of a snapshot that I would take of an automotive data system
Not really. It will give you a historical log of all data held within each one of however many ECMs are on the machine, I think it's three, since the last time the Diagnostic memory was erased. It will list Diagnostic Codes, Events, settings, configurations, running totals, etc, etc. Can run to over 30 pages of data on a bigger machine, I've no idea how big it will be on your 308E. The attached is for a dozer, just to give you an idea. I don't have one handy for an excavator.
Ok. That's what I need. Im hoping our friend can check it soon because I'm not one to stand on the mound and pitch money at things until it's fixed.
Did you find out what it was?
Must of been the damn Gremlins!!
No, haven't looked at it lately. Thyey used it about a month ago on a job but it was worse than ever. Seems like the warmer the ampiant temperature is, the worse it gets. We have a friend that is supposed to come look at it and also our computer program connector is supposed to connect with WIFI but it won't connect .. I sure would like to watch live data and get a snapshot while someone is operating the machine.
Yep.
Ive had the exact same problem on the same machine! As it dies I pulled off the fuel line as it enters the high pressure pump, I had loads of fuel coming from the low pressure line. In the end I took the shield off the ECU and when the machine died I covered the ECU with a wet towel to cool it, the machine then ran for another half hour and would do the same every time i cool the ECU. Might not be your problem but its quick and free to test. I have since sent the ECU to 2 specialist companies and neither could fix it because of the way its stuck together. I'm too frightened to ask Cat the price for a new one...
A Reman one (if available) would be a lot cheaper. No harm in asking.
It would be worth a call to CAT to inquire if they have an updated part number or if there is a service bulletin regarding the ECM overheat issue. Have your serial number handy for the parts guy.
So using Bob's serial number.........FJX08192. The ECM used to be part #436-0821. That has been superceded to part#494-0063. Cost here in US is $3700. No remans available in US. No info available on what or why updated part#.....maybe Nige can dig something up?? No service bulletins regarding ECM that CAT parts could see. After the machine has gotten hot and died.......have you tried to do a wiggle test on the connectors?? See if the problem lies in the connector or pins on the ECM??
Here is the history I have. The guys were runnining it maybe an hour or so at a time, demo and loading roll off dumpsters last summer. No problem. This spring, morning ambiant temperature 20-40 it would run 4+ hours then quit. The first thing they did was change fuel filters but no signs of dirt or water. It still quit after 4 hours cold start,, let sit 20 minutes it would run 14 minutes or so then repeat the stall, they timed it. It dies, restarts and immediatly dies unless yiu wait and let it cool. I pulled the codes and all I got was a code for hydro fluid temperature. I talked to Cat service and they told me it was a possibility that it was bad fuel injectors or a bad fuel solenoid as there were problems with those . I'm not convinced on that idea as it seems electrical like you say. In my experience, a bad electrical plug connector will heat up and give you trouble in about 20 minjutes. GM and Ford have had wire terminal trouble for years. We have a laptop I can connect to the macine but my Cat3 connector will not connect to the laptop via WIFI. I'm trying to get the program people to remidy this but I have to communicate with them via text instead of voice and then get myself into a good service area with internet for them to get remote access to fix the program. I need a live DATA snapshot of operating parameters. One corroded wire, loose fuse or connector terminal, hot ECU, bad ground, sensor anything..
Ive done lots of wiggling wiring looms! Also pulled of all the sensor connector I can find when the machine is still cool and the machine keeps running but thows up fault codes. I think a reman will not be possible as ive been doing my homework and it seems the whole PCB in the box is filled with resin so i guess not serviceable. I'll keep ya posted. J
As i say, I would try uncovering the ECU and put a towel or similar over it and pour on cold water. This can maybe make no difference, or it can isolate the fault to the ECU. Good luck!
I've done a lot of wiggling and pulling too. Some Cadillac fuse boxes were nototrious for clitches and I remember a friend's Ford back in the late 70s that had the resin filled ignition box, it would quit running but if you turned it upside down and taped it to the fender well it would never quit.
We have our own trucks and trailers
I have the same machine and the exact same issue you had. I couldn’t have written it better myself, machine runs for about 1.5hrs and then sputters and stalls, if you let it sit off for 15 minutes, it will occur again in 10-15 minutes after you re start it. No codes, no warning lights. I have done all the filters checked for air in the lines, replaced the mini in line pump, ran with the fuel tank cap off etc. Did you ever figure out what it was? Thank you
Have you gone through all the previous 3+ pages of this thread and tried everything (and there was plenty) that was suggested along the way.?
Yes I have gone through the entire post, I have tried everything except cooling down the ecm, which I don’t feel it is. My feeling is that this is fuel related, I am contemplating ordering the fuel suction control valve, but I’m not sure if in fact it is faulty, if it would throw a code. Forgot to mention this machine has been hooked up to a computer and no stored codes, or warnings stored any everything is normal and within operating parameters.
Is this a Kubota common rail engine.? I know it's badged as a Cat C3.3 but I'm pretty sure it's manufactured by Kubota. Can you also post a machine Serial Number please.
Your symptoms sound very much like the ones in this thread, although it was for a C3.8 engine. As I understand it the C3.3 and C3.8 engines are both manufactured by Kubota and BOTH use the same HP fuel pump. The spring in the fuel pressure regulator is what gives problems - it breaks. HeavyEquipmentForums
You need to hook it up with cat et and download the product status report. In PDF as Nige has mentioned before. Simply clicking on logged and stored codes won’t show the issue if it’s intermittent. And if you aren’t seeing fuel pressure codes in the logged codes, we might be looking at ecm, wiring, relays. The easiest way is to get the PSR, and when the issue happens again, have the laptop hooked up.
I will get the vin number today, as I am not sure which engine it has. The next plan is to try to have the computer hooked up when this happens, but it has been so intermittent up until this point it was difficult to make that happen. Now it occurs like clockwork and should be doable once I get the guy with the computer here.
I replaced the fuel suction control valve, and there was an update for the fuel system which adds a return line from the top of the filter back to the tank. I ran it for 5 hrs straight no problem with the outside air temperature around 40 egress. Two weeks later, about 50 degrees outside and it ran for about 1.5 hrs and stalled and shut off again. When the computer was hooked up there were no stored codes or warnings, I wasn’t referring to the function on the machines screen. Kind of at a loss on what to do next.
Can you hook up cat et and press f6 to make a product status report for us to see. Save as pdf and post.