Hello All Caterpillar D4H low power smoking black D4H S/N 9DB04186 Operator said unit was performing well but suddenly lost power and started blowing black smoke. The engine is running smoothly and no indication of a miss fire. I have removed the air filter and the rubber hose from the filter to the turbo charger and made sure the turbo was running. Removed the side and upper covers to make sure the exhaust leak I noticed was not at the turbo exhaust connection etc. There is no apparent change. All input is accepted. Phil P
Does turbo vanes spin when running? Black smoke and loss of performance are from lack of air, and point to seized turbo shaft/ impeller.
Thanks heymccall Yes I removed the rubber hose from air filter to turbo to make sure it was running and I did turn it with my finger before running the engine. Phil P
excessive oil in the flywheel housing can give symptoms like this. cause can be convertor leakage or scavenge pump blockage or malfunction
Make sure you havent popped a turbo boost hose or a intake manifold gasket somewhere.
Would start simple with fuel filters, and make sure if its equipped with a waste gate on turbo its operational.
Mark250 Thanks for the information. Now how do I check that? Vetech63 Thanks for the suggestion. There are no hoses between the trubo and the engine it is all hard piping there is no Intercooler. Tljohnson05 Thanks for the suggestion the personal on the ranch change the filters including intake air no change in performance and there is no wastegate. Phil P
Get underneath and pull the big drain plug #16 from the bottom of the torque converter housing. This may require the lowering of one of the belly guards. BTW has anyone checked the transmission oil level.? If the converter housing was full of oil the transmission could most likely be low on oil.
Had a bad aneroid diaphragm on a 330B or C. Can't recall. Same thing, tons of smoke and low power. I can't determine if that injection pump has an aneroid control or not.
A head gasket blown between two cylinders can cause this
Niger Thanks you again Heymccall Thank you I will check on that pump the thought had crossed my mind that it could be the injection pump. Dave Neubert Thanks for the idea this engine is running smoothly I would think it would have a miss on at least one of those 2 cylinders. Just to let you all know I have volunteered to help the brother of a fellow that has passed away. I had done some work for the owner and now the estate that is being managed by his brother and sister. They have made it very clear that I am not working for free and have been paying some times in excess and I have refused to take the excess. This entire fleet has been poorly managed for a number of years. The equipment I have sent to the dealer for repair because the job just required equipment that we did not had access to has run high in repair cost. Another person has also volunteered to help with the management of the live stock. The biggest problem we have is the personnel at the ranch do not speak English and the people I am doing business with live a thousand mile away from me in opposite directions but do speak English. So please be patient with me if it takes time to get some of the information you all may ask for. Phil P PS: Walking up to this fleet is like walking in to a room that you know you have to clean out and it is so full and disorganized that you can’t make up your mind what to pickup first. LOL
Hi I stand corrected on the turbocharger outlet to the intake manifold. Got to it to with a bright light and there is a short about 4 or 5 inches long hose just out board of the turbo. Still no problem with that. Checking with owner and the operator they have not had to add oil to the transmission. The injection pump is buried behind the frame but got the best pictures I can and don’t see any tag on it. Here are some pictures. Phil P
Here is data tag
Hey Phil, I own a D5H , no so diff from a D4H besides size and guts... I had a similar problem to yours, it happen to be a simple thing, in my case one rubber lip between the filter housing and the particle separator end up clogging the intake, resulting in very poor performance and a lot of smoke, not dark but brown and dense. At the time i though something was going wrong with turbomachinery and did not noticed the problem , ended up checking valves/ compression/ turbo/ blow by/ injectors etc , everithing was perfect for the age and condition of the machine. Anyway convinced myself the motor was damaged somehow and failed to folow the "diesel engine troubleshoot check list" as its just a diesel... if its smoking is one of two things " too much fuel or too less air" . I´d sugest u pick up a reading on Intake Air Pressure, "under load" that will point to some direction... good luck
Mquinista Thanks We have run this engine in the configuration you see in picture #2 it made some change but not much. The only thing left is a blockage in the tubing between the turbo and the intake manifold. I have never had an injection pump go rich in fuel feed all I have ever had to change went lean or no fuel at all. The owner of this machine has a D4 on his farm in another country and he is familiar with how they operate. The one thing about this unit is all of the markings are in some kind of language that looks like Arabic to me and the owner has no idea what it is either. Phil P
The build data doesn't indicate anything in the way of "alternative language" instruction films. Post some photos of the stickers please, especially if there is a Part Number on them........ Agreed. Get a pressure gauge on the intake between the turbo and the engine and measure what you have for boost pressure with the transmission stalled against the brakes in 3rd speed. Remove plug #3 to tap in a pressure gauge. BTW there are two flexible hoses (#8 & # 11) between the turbo and the engine intake. It might be well worth someone's while to go back and have a really good close look at both of them.
Here is the picture someone ask for. Phil P
It's Japanese. This particular machine was originally manufactured for the Japanese home market. The ROPS plate translates as follows:- If the owner wants english films/decals all you have to do is take some photos and ask you dealer for English equivalents.
Thank you Nige Hope to do manifold pressure check this afternoon. Phil P
Good morning What pressure am I looking for? Phil P
Just report the pressure you measure. We'll tell you if it's acceptable or not. The engine/transmission has to be up to operating temperature, and the boost pressure measured in 3rd speed with the tractor stalled against the brakes.
Hi Nige I was just wondering I will test the gage I used today because the reading I got could not be true. I am use to the turbocharger I used on aircraft and a test like I did yesterday would result in 60 inches of mercury on the average aircraft and would have cause the over boost valve to open. I understand this is not the same thing and the turbo is not intended to work at lower barometric pressures like the aircraft system. The result I got can’t t be correct. Phil P
What result did you get.? Permissible values at converter stall RPM are between 8.1 & 10.9 inches of mercury with a target of 9.5". Those figures are "adjusted" values based on 68DegF Ambient, 1000Mb atmospheric pressure, etc, etc.
Thanks Nige e I have tested my manifold pressure gage and it is OK. My manifold pressure gage starts at 30 inches or what ever the current barometric pressure is and goes up from there. I am not getting the pressure you indicate I am only getting about 35 inches of mercury your figures would be between 38 and 40 inches of mercury. My next question is what RPM should converter stall be? This engine will no longer move the dozer in any gear and RPM is low. Something I had forgotten about was the Cat v8 boat engines I use to work on. On the Cat v8 I worked on in boats commonly referred to as the throwaway engine because overhauled cost more that new replacement that boat secured to dock engine running until no further RPM increase, I was getting about 45 inches of mercury. This was not our problem the engine was producing power but would over heat quickly so they could not maintain speed. When going to the island fishing this was a problem. It turned out not to be an engine problem but a raw cooling water flow problem thru the piping from the intercoolers to the exhaust at the transom. Phil P
Are you talking inches of water for pressure.? If so, then multiply my numbers by 13.6. The numbers above (8.1-10.9) are pressures measured in inches of mercury . They would be 110-148 with a target of 129 measured in inches of water. Have you removed the intake and looked at the turbo when the engine is under load to see whether or not it is spinning.?
Question: With the transmission in neutral will the engine achieve anything like High Idle RPM - and is that with or without black smoke.?
Did a bird or mouse nest get sucked into the air cleaner? I've seen that one a few times. I also saw recently an air filter put in backwards that choked the air off enough the engine would barely start
Good idea. i'd suggest to test the boost pressure with both primary & secondary air cleaner elements temporarily removed.
Not familiar with this tractor but does it have any kind of pre-cleaner on the air filter housing? I have seen some of them get plugged and cause problems that could be over-looked.
Hi To answer all questions. #1 the first thing we did was remove the air filters. #2 when that didn’t help, I removed the hose from the turbo charger to the air duct from the filter. housing. #3 when no change I turned the turbo charger with my finger then watch during startup and could see the turbo spin up. #4 all of my pressures are in inches of mercury sorry not millibars as many years I used the US measurement system. For years our altimeters had 2 windows one for inches and on foe millibars. Now a question from me? What is the governor max rpm for this engine? I want run to governor limit before going too much further. We are in the process of removing the air filter housing for inspection of both hoses. At that time, we will also remove enough of the exhaust system to determine there is not some kind of blockage in that system. Phil
High Idle No Load RPM on that engine is 2360. Governor setting speed is 2250. Does the engine smoke when you spin it up to whatever maximum RPM it can reach with the transmission in neutral.?
Well , Its funny u have a gauge in Inches of Mercury , as it would not help u in this purpose... Usually in this engines we do not need to measure absolute intake pressures... just the positive pressure above whatever atmospheric pressure is ... in your case u should have a reading of 0.5 to 0.8 bar , being 1 BAR 14 PSI, a rough comparison something on the 8 to 12 psi in a common pressure gauge u can find in any hardware store. Things u can check, while u´re there are , Blow By, If a 3304 engine it shouldn´t be noticeable, Valves , 40mm for intake and 60mm for exaust, don´t know in bananas..., injector visual test, remove one at a time run the engine on 3 and watch injector patern and quantity, turbo play... pretty sure is nothing special as if it were u would be complaining on white smoke instead. good luck
Any chance of a short video of it running? Maybe with a quick opening of the governor. Just on the chance someone will see or hear something you might not notice?
Here's a video. I have an opinion but I'm going to keep it to myself for a while and let others opine first.
Hi The engine was started and run up to governor limit just before I started the recording. You can see the Dozer lurch forward slightly when it is shifted in to 1st gear. Then when shifted back to neutral the engine accelerates back to governor limit and the exhaust clears up. Phil P
I don't have sound on my computer, so I can't hear what's happening. Some black smoke with the engine under a load is normal.........that is a stall condition. Not sure I can be of any help without hearing it.
If I understand correctly the complaint is lack of pushing power accompanied by black smoke. TBH bearing in mind the reported symptoms I was surprised how little smoke there was on that video when the transmission was shifted into gear. With the engine & transmission warmed up please stall the converter in 1st speed forward against the brakes. What RPM do you measure.? Don’t worry about the smoke, just give it beans. Also, what does the engine sound like when run at High Idle No Load RPM.? Any sound of a misfire or smooth.?
Please remember I have a communication problem with the people operating this machinery. The lack of English labeling of the cab I am hesitant to operate the unit myself as I haven’t operated a Cat Dozer sense the cable operate 9UD6 I rebuilt 45 years ago. The manifold pressure test was perfumed by engaging the transmission in 3rd gear then advancing the throttle to full open. The engine never made much RPM above idle and the pressure was low. This time I did not tell the operator to put the machine in any gear I just wanted to get a video of the start and acceleration to max RPM. This time the throttle was advanced in natural before I started the video until the engine was at full throttle. Then the operator put the machine in 1srt gear. Something I would not have done I just kind of cringe at the idea of doing it that way. For one thing about 3 feet in from of the blade is a Mercedes automobile!!!! At any rate this engine sounds better than I have ever heard it before. So we are looking for input as to what may be the problem. Phil P
Hi The video has sound and it sounds good to me this is the first time I have heard it at high RPM. But under load I am not sure what I am hearing. Phil P
The second paragraph is interesting. The engine reaches high idle RPM in neutral (as seen in the video) but won’t get much above low idle when the converter is stalled. Converter problem maybe.? They are not hard to operate. I’d suggest to get in the cab and play around with it yourself. Have someone move it outside into a wide open space if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Hi I now have the CD containing the manual for this unit. I will label the important items so I can try operating it. We are now putting the unit back together so I can operate it some and see just what is going on. Phil P
Hello all It has been a while I have had a lot of equipment down for various reasons and this D4 is low priority. However here is a video of it working some. I am beginning to think I have an operator problem as much as a machine problem. According to the specs this machine only has a 45HP engine. If this is not correct I am sure some will let me now. The machine was wormed up in the barn previously started and shut down several times then back out of the barn. Both operators tell me after a couple of hours of use it gets so low on power that they even have a hard time turning it on dry ground. What you see here is a field behind the barn that was flooded just a few days ago. Phil P https://youtu.be/JwUJFyAIZl0
Black smoke is unburned fuel. It can be common to have black smoke when accelerating or under heavy load. The way your's is smoking most of the time it might be good to have the injectors tested. Does it miss at all when starting it cold or have to crank a little longer than usual?
No, it seems to start and run without any indication of a miss fire. Phil
Hey man, there are a lot of things going wrong with diesels that can lead to those simptoms... Neverthelss what u should check imediatly is dieel starvation, and air starvation. With this 2things checked the engine may smoke of many colours but it will certainly have a decent power. In case its a trans problem , by now the tractor would not engage or have any push power... there is noting there eating away power without reveal itself in major failure... God luck.
I still say check the head gasket I have seen this before
Hello every one. I have become discouraged with this customer. He is under the misconception that arriving her for a few days once a month is sufficient to manage this enterprise. I will keep you updated after his next visit. Phil
Has this dozer problem gotten any further?
Anyone tried it without the muffler, could be collapsed baffles inside causing back pressure.
Hi Because of my lack of being able to communicate with them this unit hasn’t even been run the last time the owner was there he was there for only 4 hours in the afternoon. He is going to be back next week and I am going to have to get it straight that he has to have some on the ranch that speaks and reads both langue. Phil
I deal with the same language barrier here at times. In those cases, I can't take anything I hear as gospel. I'm on my own from start to finish.............so I have to begin with the basics and move forward.
Hello The owner finally came with enough time to do a proper test run on the D4. After this we have decided to go thru the low pressure fuel system from draining the fuel tank and cleaning all fuel lines with air and changing the filters right up to removing the fuel inlet banjo fitting at the injector pump. I may also clean the fuel return lines. Here is a link to the video. https://youtu.be/fa3doGmAWcQ Phil P
By the way she is over fuelling, i dont think you have a low pressure fuel issue. Does it look like the injector pump has been off before? Paint missing from bolts, adjustment screws and un painted components normally gives it away. The reason i ask is that i think its got a diesel knock or ping at high idle. Also seams slow to rev. Wonder if the timing is to far advanced or advance mechanism in pump is buggered. Or, thinking out loud, does the pump have a boost compensation mechanism? Might be stuck at full boost position.
Did you ever get around to checking torque converter housing oil volume?If the scavenger pump is blocked or the converter has excessive leakage the housing fills up with oil and it acts like a hydraulic retarder.
IMO the OP has to start somewhere, and verifying the LP fuel system as far as the inlet to the FIP is a basic diagnostic step that I think should be done before moving forward. The black smoke in the video might be confusing, because if the fuel pressure is not up to snuff that could cause low RPM, low boost, and result in black smoke.
As per post 45, u guys should check, intake system before moving along.... that is hardly related to lack of fuel. My bet is , an obstruction somewhere in the intake. i´ve had a similar problem, a rubber boot got stuck in the intake and obstructed engine breeding. Just noticed it after a helth check in the engine. The possibility of engine beeing under load, even if not moving is some how "odd" it can be though. u guys can check by unhook the converter to trans shaft, thats the easy part .... good luck
Mquinista Check post 30 Phil P
noted... nevertheless u did not report intake press... as i sugested some post´s ago... thing is measuring MAP in a unloaded engine will not make much diff... usually reads close to atmospheric press. In this engines like many others u can have an engine out of time, despite the assembly procedure prevents it... or makes it almost impossible , unless semeonee has removed timing gears and all other gadgets. The IP by itself will not do it if failed... the governor might be out of specs but again if it was u would have other issues going on... IP´s need to be checked in a diesel shop... cost money and time... if u suspect the injection system u got to go that road, meanwile, it would worth narow it a litle closer... check injectors watch patern and if all 4 inject same , take one out and run it in 3 engine , or take 4 and run in starter...