I have a 10K PS that has been giving me fits. It looses drive (open clutch) on the left side intermittently, sometimes on the right but mostly left. I have ran it with pressure gages hooked up on the clutch feed elbows and you can see the pressure up to pump pressure meaning the valve is stuck. I have a parts 10k that I swapped the complete steering valve assembly with and it did the same thing. Was thinking of throwing in a set of 4 springs but other than that i'm at a loss. Has anybody ever had this issue?
Check the linkage for jamming, if okay, change and cut open the trans filter. I suspect the trans oil may be contaminated with metal cuttings. They will jam a steering valve and many other valves too. Is torque overheating? Later Bob
Fresh oil, linkage not binding.
Plus it seems to always be the left side.
As Bob says, the next step would be to replace the transmission filter then cut the old one open and see what sort of particles you can find in it.
The steering control valve is a bit of iron with not much in, I suggest you remove the valve block and strip it out and study why its jambing the spool in, the linkage to it should be free and light to activate, the valves can stick for the stupidest reasons so activate the control links on the valve block with the rectangular plate off and see how little it takes to stick a spool. tctractors
Don't suppose the dreaded cross shaft is starting to lean on the top pinion seals??
I don't know whats possible and not that's why i'm asking. Previous owner had a fatal transmission failure 1400hr ago. Dealer reman torque, trans and final drives. I put another 150hr on it. I do not think they cleaned out the bevel gear case because the magnet filter was full of big trash and if I work at a extreme angle the magnet will have some chunks again. The filters have been cleaning up so I changed the oil and filters and cleaned up the sticky spots in the valve spools. I guess I'll just keep cleaning and changing until I get all the crap out. I did pick up a set of springs, after 40+ years and a couple million cycles they might be a bit slacked...
That's your problem, left overs from big failure. Later Bob
The steering valve block is still worth striping and checking as the spools can stick easily, often this is not on the inner section of the spool? the oil system is filtered so its easy to system check for crap, the pressure filter case needs draining on filter swap, on transmission oil change the 2 plugs should be dropped out of the steering case as well as the tran's drain plug, its not un-common for the steering valves to stick I have had more trouble with the outer section of the spools than contamination within the oil section, you can feel the spool on the steering hand lever if you compare left and right controls, you might be blaming this trouble on the wrong issue,I am no expert but I have done a few. tctractors
When I changed oil all the above mentioned was done but the 2 plugs on the steering case. Where are they? Underside next to the trans guard? The spools in my original valve were worn/scored. I touched up the bores and spools with some 600. They moved better after that. Like Bob said I think i'm fighting the crud from a past failure.
The 2 plugs are directly under the steering clutch position, they have a little sump shape that tends to hold all sorts of gunk, I still think you need to study the spool outer ends some more, but as I said I am no expert, but there is only so much crap you can pump through a system before the transmission pump gives out? what state is the pressure filter and inner case like? have you checked the T/C screen as well as the pump screen, if the machine is so full of floating Scrap something just is not right with the tractor, I don't think its crap sticking your steer valve if the transmission pressure is up to standard, measure this issue at the filter top via the bleed plug is best. tctractors
Those are the plugs. Thanks The old oil was burnt and a mix of who knows what. Things would get hot and pressure would fall at the pump. When I changed the oil the pump got replaced with new. Torque screen was clean. My steering pressure is around 315 hot and within pounds of pump pressure. Every time I take the cover off of the valve you see some tiny flakes in the bottom. Thats where the outer valves rest, at the bottom... Now that you mention I can feel a difference in the resistance in the hand controls between the different valve assemblies ( original/parts). If a outer was sticking you should feel a different pull in the handle. I'm gonna change the springs, magnet and paper filter again today and take a better look at how the filter canister seals around the filter.
The steering valve block splits in half with a long and a short plunger, long and a short spring with 2 identical valves and slugs, if the slugs are jambing inside the valves I can understand the trash issue, but the usual item to play up is the plungers in the rectangular bit within the block split (I think its held with 5 bolts, if you have junk playing up the steering control the transmission must be giving the same stick, they can take some fine tuning to get the plunger action smooth and constant. tctractors
Found the issues. I get Baldwin filters delivered to my door so that's what I used. It's a tin wrapped paper element and don't seal worth a darn on the metal sealing surfaces. The OE cat one has rubber plastic end caps that seal great. Upon suck bucketing out the oil in the filter housing I found the bottom tin sealing surface must have gotten bent and bent back by a hammer mechanic. Thus the bypass of metal into my steering valves... Well shall know in a bit how this plays out.
An interesting story. In the past quite a few posters here on HEF have sworn by Baldwin filters. I still think that oil & filters are the cheapest insurance policy in existence and would take a lot of persuading to use "will fit" elements.
Nige I too swear by Baldwin and use nothing else except OE cat on some things. This might be one of those circumstances where OE is the only way to go. I ran the tar out of it for a hour and never felt any slipping so the valves function great now. You can feel the first spring and then the resistance really increases as the second spring comes into play. I'm glad I put in new springs. Thank you everybody for your thoughts on this.
DX, your service method is at fault here, on the bottom of the filter case is a drain plug (3/4" hex) this plug is supposed to be removed at filter change before removal of the filter element, the purge plug on the filter lid should be removed, then the filter case drained, then the filter lid removed, the filter is then removed with the bottom of the filter case being cleaned out, it is hard to catch the oil from the bottom of the filter case, 2 plastic bags 1 inside the other works well, if the suck pump method is used crap can find its way forward of the filter, keep in your mind that any junk in the filter has managed to get there only by going through the pump. tctractors
TC the drain bolt head is stripped and it has full screens. Yes I see how when you pull the top cover and the oil is above the clean inlet.
Well there is something more going on. This is after a couple hours of hard work time and around 6 hours idling around during winter maintenance. I can see some flakes of rust but when you touch them it turns to goo. Clutch facing? Bearing going bad? No chunks. The pan was squeaky clean, now literally a pile of fines out of the filter. Everything works great, no symptoms besides the stuck steering valve when the filter plugged and got some bypassing.
Well for myself thats how I like to find the magnet screen, as this is money in the Bank as this tractor has "Calved Down" and is just about to loose the will to move, when the screen comes out like this the next thing to undo is the Cab and get some Pallets handy for all the bits. tctractors
Something in there is fcuked, that's for sure. That amount of metal on a magnet is NOT normal, especially in view of the low number of hours since the last service. Doyle, I note you didn't even mentione the magnet, you were more concerned with the particles in the bottom of the tank. If it was me it would have been the other way around.
The bigger flakes of rust and goo were caught in the screens of the magnet filter assy. Nige, I too about fell over when I first looked down the magnet hole to see how bad it was. I have another 10k in the weeds that has a good gear case. Nights and weekends will be busy for a while...
I'm thinking that all of this needs a total strip down and a detailed clean up before repairing the current damage. I do wonder if all this has occurred because of the previous failure not been cleaned properly.
I'm not a fitter myself,but have been in plenty of D6 /D9 backends and done a lot of the donkey work in helping with clean up . I'm not lazy as I foot the bill with these things,but I half to admit to cleaning out all the nooks and crannies on my most recent D8H bevel case clean up (there had been no failure),but I was horrified and shamed when my fitter went in there after me and found lads of sludge and crud that I simply had missed. There are various troughs and areas to catch debris that I didn't even know existed! Pull it apart big time and really clean it up.Twice,then rebuild it.
With the detailed dealer history and hours on the components I thought I was getting into a good tractor. I about guarantee trash from my cow transmission is now calving a new back half. A old style mechanic friend of mine was saying to take the back down because of the nooks and crannys crap hides in. Needless to say its getting torn down till I find something. Last fall I was about inverted on a good slope. A bit afterwards I could hear a crunching/grinding noise from the right side that changed with speed. Thinking that was the bullet. I pulled the winch cover and looked at the pinion, good. Went fishing with a magnet in the bottom and was picking a small amount of flake. The top is coming off along with both steering clutches. We shall see in the next few weeks as I get time.
It's the only way Doyle. Good luck mate
It rained just about every day last week so the back came apart. Everything looked good. There was pinky nail sized pieces of what looks like bearing cage in the pocket under the pinion. There is some play in the pinion bearing and lots of backlash in the cluster gears in the trans. Now it's dry and i'm eating a sandwich in the shower at night, might be a few weeks yet.
Finally got the trans out. About a half inch of play front to back in the pinion. The USA version of TC is picking it up tomorrow for a go through and refit of the back half.
That wear in the transfer gears is usually where the problems start. Were you getting a clunk when changing from forward to reverse? That's the warning sign to listen for.
So guy said he turned it over above the dumpster because that's what everything was inside. Something about a needle bearing coming apart and a gear gets cocked, things split in half grinding everything into a casserole. I have another 10k4316 with a 8S590 Arrangement trans. My machine is a 10k11073 Im hoping to make 1 out of the 2. Doable?
According to SIS, both machines have the same 8S0590 arrangement.
Cmark thank you. Time to pull another and go through it.
Both transmissions were junk the one wasn't so bad but every bearing and sealing surface was grooved or worn. Basically threw every component, cooler, etc in the dumpster and started over. I have a question about the clutch piston sealing rings. The piston sealing surfaces are worn slightly, where the end gap in the ring changes about .010 top to bottom but is consistent .030-.035 through the area it rides in during operation. Did a bunch of calling at the cat house to find the right knowledgeable people but couldn't get a exact answer with anybody familiar with this. From what they said .005-.020 is acceptable. Any more will create leakage. I wish BobOnt was still around...
Just to get things straight. You're talking about the bore in the clutch housing where the piston moves in & out, right..? If that's the case post some housing part numbers and I'll see what I can dig up. It'll take a coupe of days because I'm just leaving to catch a plane right now and will be off-grid until maybe Saturday.
Oversize rings are out there, it pays to fit the ring gap around the top area so the clutch fill oil purges out the air making a better action of the clutch, what's this dumpster thing you have in the U.K. we have the Healing Bench, this bench is the home for all the junk parts that have been removed from machine rebuilds, after a small time these bits are found to be good enough to work again as the bench has done its Magic. tctractors
8m8650 piston 6p8266 .015 over ring 4s8708 clutch housing There is 5 packs, F R 1 2 3 some have different part # but should give you the just. A pic below. My biggest concern is end gap tolerance spec. TC thanks for the hint. Sadly in these parts a machine this old is a dinosaur and deemed unprofitable. I have a soft spot in my heart for this era of yellow iron unfortunately. The original transmission was unsalvageable. Every gear, shaft and carrier was ground to bits. Im lucky to have a donor that was rebuildable. The usable pieces I donated to the medicine man that helped me at the healing bench as he will give life to other cats as he did mine.
So things finally slowed down and I got time to put everything together. New trans, torque, coolers, gear case bearings and clutches/seals, flushed all the lines and valves. Ser 10k11073 Priority (pressure control) valve adjustment. 6 different variation of valve. Should be a 1P6590. I found a number for a installation form. GMG02516 couldnt find the form. I set the valve as per spec in the book (spools flush w/housing on front side) but have no forward,reverse or gear. Driveshaft spins constant. Lots of aeration of the oil out of the transmission case. Oil out from the top of the gearcase/bearings is clear. I've pulled the valve internals out and speced everything out ok and in the right position. Pump pressure 340, and my speed and direction pressures are close spec but backwards. Direction 275-300 should be 55 less than speed Speed 60 should be close to pump pressure If somebody could find the form I'll see where that gets me. This project has been some work, a few dollars but very rewarding. Thank you to all that have been a help along the way.
Can I ask where you found the number for the installation form..?
In my paper copy parts book UEG0729S Page 68B
Well finally got it done and right. The feller that overhauled my transmission forgot a gear. The one that slides over the through shaft for the CCU. Ties the planetaries to the transfer gears, only about 16" long and 3" around. Anyways... it will drive through the brakes in 2nd.
That's got to qualify as an ooops.....
Not like its his first. He's been at if for 35 years and grew up in a caterpillar junkyard. It was kind of a bad situation. Work on it for a few hours, need parts, wait a few days situations. I didn't pay over a grand for the torque and trans labor, got scared when I got the bill. The next one is going to be on me as after seeing the inside and understanding how they work it's fairly simple inside. I did the gearcase as that is straightforward as in the book also. NO WAY would I want to tackle a project like this without a genuine parts and service book.