Im new to this web site and i was hoping to find some solid information on the production ratings of cat challengers and scrapers!? I know there are a lot of variables but if you would please enlighten me on your past or present knowledge of these combo's. Thank You
Can't give you any production ratings or data. However if you are thinking of using them I caution you to the application. Top soil, clay they are okay. Don't put them in the rock or you will tear the tracks of of them in no time flat.
We run the International 460 with 1 scraper. We mainly strip Topsoil with them. We have done 2000Cy in 10hr day per unit. They can fly and work in wet conditions over the scrapers. Tracks are very expensive, keep them out of sharp/abrasive stuff. Remember if the topsoil is wet when you strip, you need the tractors back to replace, the scrapres will NOT get on the pile to replace.
GRADEMAN- international 460? isnt that i rubber tired machine? we are looking at an mt865 and pull a 463 cat scraper.
I mistyped. We run 480 quad case international with 17 cy Ashland pull scraper
I've run the 450 Quads, John Deere 9630's, 9630T's (rubber tracks), the MT865, and MT875. For price per unit you cannot beat the setup. Given we pull 17-21 yard pans behind them and no less then 2 pans but mostly 3 pans. With 18 yard pans we average them at 33yards pulling triples. We use them for top soil and clay haul. We have any rock we stick 631's in it. 631's will beat them on a production day but overall job cost when you get it completed the Farm tractor will have moved it cheaper, but not faster. As for example right now we have 7 Deere 9630's with 2 pulling triples and 5 pulling doubles on an average 3000 foot haul and we move about 8000 yards a day.
I would caution you about pulling a 463 or for that fact any dolly wheeled scraper behind a challanger. I dont think you will have enugh weight to fill a 463. Last fall we rented a 535 quad and pulled our 15 yd dolly It worked fine but there were times that traction was a little bit of a problem a 463 is a 25 to 28 yd and will take a lot mor traction to fill. I my area a 863 is usualy pulled by a 8r or I see a lot of old 9g's pulling them and they are going to out weigh a 865 by at least 20000 lbs if not more assumeing a heavy 865 will weigh 55000 and a 8r will weigh around 80000 lbs. I think a 17yd direct mount would a lot better match for a 865 or even a couple direct mount 17's in a train would be a good combo if you have the room. We were talking to cat salseman the other day about 865's and pans he said they were great but dont expect the tranny to last more than 5000 hrs hooked to a pan.
Yeah that is very true with the tractors I see used they don't last much past 5000 hours then repairs get to be frequent and costly. Most company's just trade them and get new ones with warrantys. McAninch tried the MT865 and a 631 pan and it didn't work well. Like stated they dont have the weight to get the traction to pull that big a pan. I would really look into pulling 2 John Deere Eject pans. I really like the 1810E, The 2112's just seem a bit much but work well in some circumstances.
Pics found on one of the other forums..Cat getting into the rubber track Artic truck based concept? Credit to original poster.
No, those tracks on the rig are an aftermarket set up. Cant remember the name of the company, but that is not original cat.
I dont think cat has anything to do with that, it looks like its a different outfit that buys the 740's then converts them to tracks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL_Iap4ZWIQ
And pulling 1 20 yard pan, not very cost efficent, if its not compatiable to pull at least a 2nd pan i dont see it becoming very popular.
I think you will find it has more to do with the cost of floorspace at Conexpo than if it will be pulling multiple pans ultimately as to why it was exhibited with just 1 pan, my understanding is this is another creation of CJ Moyna who was the one that developed the ejector truck set up and went on to create Eject systems that Cat later purchased, i would assume this is another venture legally outside what ever he sold to Cat.
It looks a bit like the new scraper tractor Miskin is marketing...
Check out the video i posted of it, it is only hooked to 1 pan and they say nothing about hooking doubles or triples, plus the control for the pan is a joystick control, so they would have to do something different for more pans, i dont know if you have ever ran a tractor and pans but they have 4 different controls for 2 pans, and 6 if you are pulling 3, and i really dont see how you would do that with a joystick control because you could only use one pan at a time, and sometimes you have got to be able to work all of them at the same time
40,000 lb hitch, allows for SINGLE larger scraper. Thats what was said on the video
I have not seen the video but it makes a whole lot more sense if you can have 1 larger scraper than say 3, much more simplified controls, less parts wearing and tearing but the biggest bonus would be a dedicated dirt machine pulling the pan (with the modified 740) as opposed to an agricultural tractor, mind you just get a proper scraper and be done with it i say.
I'd have to agree, you'd have to think the price of the whole unit would almost buy a new scraper
The reason why you pull multiple scrapers is because AG tractors dont have the power or traction to load one big Scraper. I also doubt a 740 will be able to as well. That is the reason why they set it up that way. Biggest problem I would see with a 740 is they are not built to load scrapers, they are built to be top loaded so I wonder what the drivetrain life is on them. Its a real good idea but really not practical for most situations.
We ran a 33yd Ktec pan on our 480 cases and could boil dirt out of the bowl all day. In wet or soft ground it was hard to get a very full load though.
When using tractor pans (or in that case a modified ADT and bowl), pulling doubles or triples isn't always the answer. Some times single bowls are gonna be more efficient than multiples. Short cuts where you don't have the distance to fill two, soft or wet ground too, cause those bowls are nothing but huge boat anchors when it gets soft, and steep up grades too as I understand it, most tractors struggle to pull two full bowls up a steep stockpile. So, it's not completely a useless venture. Course it's on a 740, so it probably won't pull THAT well:stirthepot
I've run them hooked to triples and it really doesn't take much for a 9630 to load 3 18yard John Deere pans. Its about 2 minutes, so a long cut isn't always necessary but it can't be no 20 feet long either. We rate our deere and pans at 33yards of compacted fill they are carrying. Now that I am thinking about this we got some really cool pictures last week of our job. Here they are, a local let me fly with him in an airplane and these are some neat photos. http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerial1.jpg http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...2/kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerial2-2.jpg http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...2/kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerial3-1.jpg http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerail3.jpg http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerial2.jpg http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...man9090/?action=view¤t=aerialphoto1.jpg a few weeks before we started moving dirt. http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/...kman9090/?action=view¤t=aerialphoto.jpg
great pics mate
I talked w the salesman at conex, he claimed the advantage was it could handle 40,000 lb tongue weight. Would get all the traction needed. In my experience loading one pan gives you no traction advantage. You don't notice more traction till u lift the front pan. On my quads I can usually load the back pan in half the distance as the front one. It cost $750,000 new and supposedly can only buy from a cat dealer. In the pic it's a 35 yard pan. I'd put my quads and jd pans up agaisnt it anyday...
Yeah, it wont replace the steigers and john deeres, and i know thats what they are looking to do!
I just seen this a little diferent www.titan-emd.com
I'm still not sure about these setups. I would like to see one on a quarry stripping job against tractor/pans.
It all says to me that people are figuring out that those stupid phucking wiggle trucks are not the be all to end all and that the scraper is the best way to move dirt when conditions allow, it also says to me that traditional scrapers are still to expensive to purchase new and contractors and specialist companies have adapted agricultural equipment to try and fit in beetween real scrapers and wiggle trucks. Face it fella,s, just get real scrapers and be done with it i say!!!
I dont want to alarm you, but your scraper seems to be missing an engine.
Yair...how earthmoving has changed...the earth hasn't though and a couple of months back I took some time to watch a big Challenger scooping nice volcanic loamy clay. I would have killed him with the old cable HD16 and the fifteen yard Wooldridge scoop. There seems to be an aversion these days to ripping. I would have had his nice neat shiny floor ripped, had the scoop back on and into it...drop her in, pump her twice and hang a right turn out of there with the duck boards overflowing. Yeah, yeah, I know you don't pump scrapers but it works on cable scoops and I would haven take four or five loads out in the distance he was taking one...keeping things tidy is one thing but you have to move some dirt.
C15 repower is not an engine, thats real livin with a D346
For price per yard it takes to run a 631 Spread or John Deere Spread its cheaper to run the Deere. Now you wanna move dirt fast then we turn to our 631 Spread or 740 spread. Theres also a time and place for the Deere, We use them to prep for our 631 Spread. Let the Deere get the top soil and crap off, then get a nice firm fill and haul ropad built and blow and go with the 631's. We are suppose to get a Volve truck this week to hook to 3 pans...
I have a MT865 Cat challenger and Eject 17 ,I ripper a few blocks off the under side of the track, the are like central guide block that run through the middle of the idle/spocket can they be reattached or ?????????????? Cheers leroy
No they cannot be reattached, after you rip enuff of them off it will eventualy throw a track, your proably going to have to buy a whole new track. Do you know what size pads your MT has? I know there are 3 different sizes, 36 inches being the largest. Company i used to work for had 15 MT865 and i think we could get around 1500hrs out of a set of tracks and boggie wheels.
But all of are challengers had the 36 inch pads and all of them were abused, pulling 3 reynolds 18 yard pans threw mudd, and then gettin them on a haul road, at 22 MPH and running a mile gets pretty hard on things!
Thankyou vapor300 my MT865 has 30inch pads do you know the cost $$$ of a set of 30 inch pads or who sells them, ie genuine or after market. thanks Leroy vapor300; i was hopeing you would say yep you just glue them back on ! but i new it 's never that easy .
LOL yeah, i am not sure, i think i heard them say a new set of pads for are MT's were around 20K, but that was for both of them and they were 36 inch pads.
Hey Guys here are a couple of pics of my CAT MT.865 and eject 17 pans cheers Leroy
NICE, nice set up I miss running the the tractor. I ran a 865 with 2 17 yd Noble pans that was a nice set up, as it was stater earlier you have to be caerful of the tracks.
Rubber track machines (any brand) are more expensive to buy, maintain, and use more fuel. So use wheel tractors, unless you really need tracks. If you need them, they are amazing machines and well worth the extra cost. for production comparisons check here: http://www.miskin.com/dirtcost.xls
I'm sure I'm late to the party here, so sorry. I've run the Challengers, Deere's, Case wheel, and QuadTrac. The Challengers have some nice features, a great cab, and smooth hydraulics. There a ton of nice things I can say about them, but sadly, they are less productive than the Deere and Case wheel machines. In spite of that extra HP, they won't load one extra spoonful of dirt than the other guys. Add to that, the 20+ gallons per hour fuel burn and you'll quickly find that you're better off going green or red.
I know Challenger had fits with those track belts. Probably why Deere stayed away from rubber tracks for so long. We'll have to wait and see what that new 9R's got.
We run circles around wheel tractors here in Fl (very sand conditions) with the 865. pulling double and sometimes triple hummdinger bowls. Hummdinger is the old Nobels and Terex bowl
I have a MT865 as well but have only used it in ag use. My average load is about 95% on the engine at 15km/h and we have done 4000 hours with the tracks still a good 75%. It has been a fantastic tractor with no issues so far. I do make a point of checking the temps of the inside of the idler every time we stop in case of the tracks "tracking" off. Make sure you change the rear drive hub oil @ 250 hr intervals and use the genuine synthetic oil, I think it will be cheap in the long run. A bloke in my area runs a JD track machine and tore all the guide blocks off a new track and was told to take it back and they will repair it, so if there is any truth in it I might be able to find out and will post it when I hear what the deal is. Cheers.
We average about 3000 hrs on the severe duty tracks from challenger. we tried the light duty agg and some after market tracks only to see the guides torn off in less than 100 hrs. were pulling two 19yd scrapers on an average haul of about 1500 ft As far as the Deere tack machine the dealers wont even sell us one to pull scrapers. In there words " its not built for that kind of work"
I wish the equipment we have lived up to these standars. the only tractor we have that has lasted for 8 years is pulling a drag box or the water tanker
what do you think about putting them in a sand/sandy clay application? just got a job that is right next to the missouri river, top 5 foot is clay then the rest is sandy clay or just sand. its gonna be wet, got about a half foot of water just sitting on top right now from the recent flooding.
RING POWER the CAT/Challenger dealer here in Fl sells a replacement lug that bolts through the track. You have to drill a hole trough the rubber and the steel belts, which I believe to be counter intuitive, but they sell it none the less
I believe they will do well in the soft under-footing, we decided on the 30 in. severe duty tracks. we found that they lasted longer than 36 in. when we did have to run them in clay. Our operators tended to throw the wider tracks much more often shorting the life of the tracks dramatically. Even with the 30 in tracks we had much more flotation the the wheeled tractors
Aren't they call Larry Lugs or something like that?
And i bet they dont hold up. Issaac i think they do awesome in the conditions you just described, wet conditions is were these machines CANNOT be beat, and if it gets to wet for the challengers get a few quadtraxs, we had a few jobs down in the misissippi and MO river bottoms and we had water come up throu the ground faster then we could pump it, had challengers and quads running throu a foot of water and slop! A challenger or quad pulling one 17 yard pan will go anywhere a widepad 6 will go
hey kman not sure if your still on here anymore but if so i am looking for some opinions on the 9510r vs challenger mt965c if you have ran either one. i currently have a 9520 pulling 2 e-ject scrapers i like my jd but and trying to decide to stay with a new deere or try a challenger, also i will be running single or dual tires not tracks. any info you have would be appreciated, thanks in advance.
Well honestly I've never ran the wheeled version of the new John Deere yet I've only been in the 9560T. I really liked the redesigned cab, but I have not been in a Challenger product in a few years now. Honestly you really cant go wrong with either one. The MT's had their issues when they first came out but those have been cleared up. If it where up to I would contact both dealers and see which one is easiest to work with and they may even let you demo them. All in all dealer support for the John Deere scraper machines is 2nd to none. Also look around there are alot of used 9630 tractors are the market with low hours that can be picked up for cheap. Also if you have a choice stay away from the floatation tires, they are not good in soft material with pans.
Post number 9 showed a picture of a converted haul truck, those look like the ones made in my area by a private person who works with cat, he sold them the eject scraper patents, and is working on replacing rubber tracks with steel on the haul trucks to pull scrapers, we toured his shop this spring, he also makes a new frame and scraper hitch to pull a lot larger scraper on a goosneck hitch as well, something over 30 yards or more to transfer weight to the haul truck, he also uses the rubber tires to help increase speeds of his scrapers on longer hauls, and can convert them back to boxes as well, a multipurpose machine with many uses was his theory and he got rid of his entire challenger pull scraper fleet due to high maintence costs of the rubber tracks. Its more of specilized lineup for his type of work, not necessarly everyones, but he runs a pretty large fleet of these machines in my area, not sure exactly how many, but I think maybe he sold about 50 or more challengers and pull pans to go to these, he's stripping top soil and clay for road building is his main thing, but ships them all over the world is what we were told on the tour for specilized applications.
Yes the company is out of Iowa and the name is CJ Moyna. I don't know how many of these they have and how good they are but the rumor when they first came out was the biggest issues were the trannies. As a 740 transmission is not made to self load. Also said in most applications you had to put a programmer on the 740 for a little extra kick to pull 2 pans. Good idea and I'm sure it has its place but I don't think it will replace Ag scrapers as there are always a place for everything. I believe they said their top speed was 14mph. Here's a pretty cool video of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL_Iap4ZWIQ
http://www.mobiletracksolutions.com/
Here's an image of an 875C Cat Challenger pulling a 33 cubic yard K-Tec scraper. Not sure of what the production numbers would be out of this set-up: For an added oomph to max out a heaped load of sand, this company had a custom push-block made to help from the rear:
And after a quick google search on your topic, the following article popped up for me: http://www.seriousmachinery.com/press11.html Press Releases Latest News from Challenger December 13, 2005 Challenger MT875B exceeds expectations Brett Kingston wasn't looking to create history when he ordered the largest production tractor ever to be sold in Australia – he was simply after efficiency gains through deliverable horsepower. Brett, who operates Kingston Landformers at Griffith in NSW's Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area (MIA) with his wife, Sonia, wanted to grow his business without having to employ extra staff or move away from the hands-on role he enjoys. After looking at the latest concepts in landforming globally, the answer came in the Challenger MT875B 570 hp track tractor – the highest horsepower tractor in the world – from AGCO Australia Ltd, which he has combined with a K-Tec 3100 (31 yard) Earthmover from Canada. "When the K-Tec arrived I tried it on the wheeled articulated tractors I'd been using and it was working them too hard. I tried a range of wheel tractors and after talking to WesTrac, the local Challenger dealer, I thought the MT 875B could be the answer." Chris Waterson, Challenger's area business manager, explained the Challenger MT875B was making its way to Australia by sea freight when the deal went through. The second Challenger MT875B ordered for Australia, has since been sold to a landforming contractor in Victoria. "As a track tractor, they are designed for farming applications but they are available by factory order in a specification purpose built for earthmoving," he said. Brett admitted to being nervous about taking the risk on a machine he'd never test driven but his fears were allayed from the first job. "In one hit, I virtually doubled my capacity. Already it has opened up opportunities for work I previously had to knock back or bring in excavators and trucks to carry out because the site was too wet or hard to access." "It's proved ideal for the soft soil which seems to exist in areas which have been under irrigation for some time." The majority of Brett's work is irrigation development – laser levelling paddocks, constructing bank less irrigation channels and building dams for water storage and recycling drains. Originally from Hillston, he came to Griffith as a subcontractor for another earth moving firm in 1988 and within a few years started his own business. Brett now has a strong and growing clientele base that he enjoys working with. His original buckets or "bowls" are still in use after 40,000 hours. Originally built by an Albury firm, they carry 18 cubic yards, one is currently pulled by a Case 9390 and the other by a New Holland TJ 425 hp articulated tractor. "They've both been great tractors, but if conditions weren't right the job became difficult. If it's too wet you'd have to call in excavators and trucks and that could mean five or six extra vehicles and the cost increases," Brett said. Brett said in a business the size of Kingston Landformers the only way to progress was to move ahead with the technology available. After researching the possibilities, the K-Tec Earthmover offered a solution. As 80 percent of the earthmover is constructed of lightweight high tensile steel, it is one of the lightest scrapers available. Weighing in at 24,000 pounds (10,900kg) empty the K-Tec has a heaped capacity of 31 cubic yards. It is built for optimum dumping with an apron opening of 84 inches (2.13m). Teamed with the MT875B Challenger Tractor the versatility and efficiency of this complete unit has proven to be an extremely successful exercise. "I needed to take a step forward and I didn't want to take on extra staff and machines. I didn't want to spend all day in the office because I like being out here doing the work myself," he said, adding he and Sonia are now the Australian distributors of K-Tec Earthmovers. "When you look at the capital investment in machinery it can seem overwhelming. But already the earthmoving business is operating more time and cost efficiently. "Daily maintenance on the Challenger MT875B and K-Tec is so minimal Iím saving an hour and half a day and previously that was unpaid time." Fuel consumption has decreased with the Challenger using around 55 to 65 litres an hour when carrying around double the capacity of Brett's other tractors which average between 55 and 58 litres an hour each. "I'll admit I was concerned about the tracks and people had warned me a track tractor could be rough to sit in all day, but that was the older models and after a day in the Challenger you still feel pretty good," he said. "I'd budgeted for a new set of tracks every season – or basically once a year – but after 500 hours in the Challenger I can see they will go further than that. They also allow great manoeuvrability – even with a full load of dirt you can turn quickly in a tight spot." Brett now uses the Challenger MT875B and K-Tec bowl to do the majority of the initial earthworks with the two other tractors and bowls used to finish or polish the surface. "Originally with the existing machines the cut had to be ripped for us to load. Now with the Challenger MT875B and K-Tec 3100 the non productive time of ripping has been converted into productive earthmoving." The new Challenger MT800B series utilises the same fundamental systems found on its predecessors, but with some important changes including new engines and the new model – the MT875B. Chris Waterson explained the new series had many improvements on the old. "People remember the old D and E Series Caterpillar track tractors as being a little rough, but the new MT700 and MT800 series models have completely changed that perception with the state-of-the art Mobil-trac suspended undercarriage system providing a smooth ride combined with the exceptional tractive efficiency only a track tractor can deliver." "As the Challenger product line has evolved, so to have the Challenger dealers become more focussed on the sale and support of agricultural machinery. Customers have the full back up of an extensive network of service, spare parts, skilled technicians and sales people around the country. In New South Wales WesTrac's continual commitment to agriculture, provides high quality agricultural solutions. It is no longer the case of earthmoving equipment dealers selling a bit of farm machinery on the side." Realising such high capacity tractors may well be in use 24 hours a day in some operations, Challenger has worked hard to make sure driver comfort in the new MT875B was guaranteed. The cabin boasts 108 cubic feet of space with improved noise reduction from previous models. There is ergonomic placement of controls, an air suspended seat, a 12 vent air conditioner system and panoramic views from large windows. "I like to keep the tractors clean and if you are moving around the outside of the cab you have easy access to all the windows with wide platforms – there's no hanging off the side trying to reach around the back. They are good and safe for employees to move around," Brett said.