Hello Everyone, I am new here and trying to figure out best tool for the job. Another thread touched on this, but I would like to compare some more details. Here is my situation. I have been looking at a Komatsu D21A-7 dozer for working on my property. I only have seven acres, so it is probably less of a need and more of just wanting a dozer to play with and possibly work with now and then. I don't have a particular task or project in mind. For me, it is important to have a machine I can pull with my pickup, so that limits me to the smallest of dozers (less than 10,000lbs). From reading several forum threads, I realize that these little dozers probably will fall short of my expectations, and that a D31 size machine (15,000 pound class) would be what I really need other than its weight....... So.... the option of a Compact Track Loader fitted with a dozer blade is what I am looking at. The Cat 277 or Komatsu CK30-1 are about the same weight as a D21, but have twice the net horsepower.... So my question is when comparing these machines in pushing dirt around, what should I expect.... The way I see it, the dozer has more track on the ground, and probably a mechanical advantage..... does this negate the horsepower advantage of the CTL? Would an 80 hp CTL compete, or blow away a D21 in pushing power...... push as well as a D31 possibly? The CTL combo with a good dozer blade would definitely cost me more money, but what I want is the best machine under 10,000lbs for pushing dirt. The additional cost of the CTL/Dozer I can warrant because of the versatility of using it as a loader also..... I was originally looking at two machines. a Komatsu D21A-7, and a Komatsu WA40 compact Wheel Loader. So I am really comparing a newer CTL with Dozer Blade and Loader Bucket, to two older machines (around 10 years and 1500 hours)... I would love to hear some comments..... Thanks, Lance 2000 Komatsu PC35R-8....2000 Komatsu CD30R-1
Are these from anyone who actually has operated a D-21 or just opinions? I have a D-20A-6, mostly the same machine except straight trans vs. powershift, No, it won't push over the big trees, but it makes an excellent driveway and yard grading dozer. Mine runs like a champ, pushes great (yes it's not a D-3 or D-31 - neither is a CTL) and barely sips fuel. For grading with a dozer blade it should do better than a CTL. But you need to decide what you want be able to do since you said that you didn't have a project in mind. If you want to push and grade, get the dozer. If you want to load, dig, run lots of rental attachments etc. etc. get the CTL.
A D-21 is great for final grading or spreading some dirt, but not well suited for large areas or heavy dozing. I found when trying push a lot the throttle needed to be set higher than I like to keep from stalling. The light weight is very good when trying to finish off a lawn or driveway. It doesn't compact or tear up the ground like a larger dozer. With only a D-21 it might mean you can only concentrate on finishing small areas at a time, but it would come out nice. Depending on what you have in mind, two machine may still be better. One small job we did was a finish grade around a house on a small building lot. We rented a Case 75 XT and a Komatsu D-21. After finishing, my dad and I were talking about how nice it came out and we realized that it was because we had the right machines rather trying make one do everything like we usually do. We could have made either machine work and got a decent result, but the combination of both machine took less time and gave a better result. Again it really depends on what you plan on doing. Even though CTLs have tracks they still around going to have the power and traction of a dozer. They are still probably far better than tires. Skid steers and CTLs are kind of like the swiss army knives of equipment. In that respect they would be great to have around if you don't mind having a machine that doesn't excel at one thing, but can do a lot. Hope this helps, because I'm great at spending other people's money so I tend to just say buy one of everything.
One of each sounds good to me too Why change attachments when you can change tractors..... Thanks for the great input I have already received. I realize that without an acutal project in mind, it is difficult to give opinions. I have thought about what tasks I would be using it for and what I can't do with my current machines. I live in Southern California and my property is Avocado Hillside. The soil is decomposed, not so decomposed granite, with random boulders. I am cutting a switchback road up and down the property for access to the grove, cutting in a circular driveway at the house, and doing a cut and fill on part of hillside... trying to make a flat acre out of a hillside that at the cut end I will end up about 12 feet deep. I have used my excavator already and cleared 120 30-40 foot avocado trees and dig up the stumps.... Worked great, and can't see needing a dozer to remove trees since the excavator works good for this. The trees were up to 18" in diameter, and I found if I dug around the roots a bit, I could lift the arm as high as possible and push them over with the leverage pretty easily. I have rented a hammer and auger for the excavator, and can't see a skid steer being better for these attachments. The house is on the high side of the property, and I want to increase the pad around it by bringing up durt from an area a hundred yards below the house which is about 50' below in elevation. I thought long and hard about the best way to move this dirt up the hill, and not knowing anything at all about real earth moving techniques, just figured it would take a big dozer to push dirt up a 20-30 degree slope to pile it around the house.... I know I could hire a big dozer, but this is kind of a "me against the mountain" project, and I am actually enjoying the work and learning how to drive machines and the strategies behind it. So I tried going up and down the hill with my little Deere Ag loader that holds about a third of a yard, and quickly figured out I won't live long enough to do it that way ....(I probably will move at least a thousand yards of dirt up the hill a hundred yards). Then I saw a Morooka crawler/dump and fell in love LOL.... I ended up getting a Komatsu machine that holds about three yards and dumps 360 degrees.... (picture an excavator with a dump truck on it) I absolutely LOVE this machine. I had to look long and hard to find it and think it might be the only one in the States....... It seems so versatile, I really wonder why these crawler dumps are not more popular. Compared to an excavator/loader combo, I think I can work a lot faster.... I can see if the dirt had to go into a truck, that you would need a loader, but to move dirt from one side of a jobsite to the other, how can you beat this combo? It hauls the dirt right up the hill and dumps without spinning the tracks... just back and forth up a hill in a straight line and spinning the body.Is it just me or is there a better way to do what I am doing? Anyways, I am getting a little carried away and off topic.... could a d21 push loose dirt up a hill faster than I can run up and down with the crawler dump? I guess distance is the key... How far would you say you could efficiently push dirt with the dozer before you are slower than an excavator combined with a loader/crawler dump..... ? I am working alone.... ten scoops puts three yards in the dump.... up the hill, dump, and back down in about four minutes... I keep both machines running and just step from one to the other without my feet touching the ground .. So I am averaging about 20 yards an hour moving dirt a hundred yards and working alone. I guess what I am saying is if I am already moving dirt with the best method, that I would really only "need a dozer to grade and maintain the pasture and roads.. How does grading with a dozer compare to pulling a scraper box with my little loader? I think I am answering my own question here, and that a D21 might be just what I need..... Sorry for the novel! I am just excited to find some people that have experience to bounce things off..... Thanks, Allen
Sounds like a fun project. Your combination sounds like a pretty good way to move the dirt. Slopes really interfere with the speed that dirt can be moved, but it sounds like your tracked dump truck is just about perfect. I think the only reason they aren't used more is the limited payload capacity. You probably won't move any more dirt with a dozer unless you rent a pretty good size one and even then you'll wind up spilling dirt on the sides. For grading a dozer, especially the little ones, are a dream to work with. At least for me anyway. You'll wonder why you ever tried to grade with a rubber tired machine before. You may find it a good investment to rent one to see if it will work like you want. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that pictures of all this would be great to see.
I've got a skid steer and I've run a real small Mitsubishi dozer, I don't know the number on it. The dozer will do a great job of grading, but that's all it does. The CTL will take a little more finesse and time, but it will get the job done. Then it's available to do any assortment of tasks you may have with the proper attachments. I think for a homeowner the CTL would be a better choice and able to handle a variety of work that you may throw at it.
Sounds Interesting... But a serious Delemar you have their. OFF TOPIC: Anyone Know where to find a Komatsu WA40-2 ( or Simialr ) Service / Shop Manuel. Mainly Need Engine Specs. @ Mods / Admins: Excuse off topic Post. Newbie Here.
Here's a couple for the dash 1 model if you need one real quick. Should be close to the dash 2 model. If you don't need one real quickly, just set up a search on Ebay and it will notify you when one becomes available via email. That's how I've done it in the past. http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=komatsu+wa40&_sacat=See-All-Categories
I own a 7000lb nortrac dozer{over 10 acres} and have no issue's with it. When something is smaller it just takes alittle more finesse to get the jobs done. I like my little machine because of the size, it doesn't have to tear everything up to get the job done. I have dug ponds, removed roots/boulders, logged trees, and more. IMO for what I need it works better then I expected
I have nothing to offer to the dozer v. ctl discussion. If you end up with the CTL I would offer the following. I rented a 287 CAT CTL with a six way dozer blade to grade a road with switch backs up a large hill. I did not like or get onto the dozer blade in the time I had the machine. The tilt and angle were controlled by separate push buttons on the joy stick. It was not very intuitive. Given enough time you could probably get it figured. I have talked to others who had the same opinion. The CTL was great. I ended up putting the bucket back on and liked it better but I have a lot of time in a skid steer. My advice is if you end up with the CTL rent a dozer blade and try it before you buy.
you can do many times the work per hour with the CTL.....as long as your not cutting grade.....really if you want to get a dozer that will cut grade etc it will exceed your hauling capacity i keep a backhoe with a thumb, a d4h, and i have a couple of CTLs with lots of implements and farm tractors........99% of the time i am in the backhoe or a CTL you can do a ton of work with a CTL with two buckets...toothed and smooth there is a lot to be said for rubber tracks also versitility wize
when the 864 bobcat came out, the contractor i was working for demoed one. i had an 1845c, a d4 hystat and a 953 cat to backfill, sub, and black dirt houses with and i was happy. bossman showed up with the bobcat ctl on his trailer and i told him not to even unload it. you see, i was content. i thought my lil case skiddy and a d4 was the best way to do the job. bossman said to run the bobcat for a minute and he would buy lunch. i ran it for a half hour, spreading 10 wheeler piles of black dirt between houses. i got off the ctl and told my boss if he didn't buy it i would quit. oh, i also bought him lunch
IMO you task of filling around your house would be done more efficiently with a dozer. It would, however take a larger dozer than a D21. The dirt spilling out the side of the blade factor is not an issue when slot dozing, and this is always the best method for moving dirt with a dozer until you start finish grading. I really like finish dozers and I have found the D5 size to be the best for my purposes. If you are going to move a thousand yards I would suggest that you rent a dozer around that size. At 20 yards per hour you are moving roughly 160 yards per day. The dozer can probably move about 60 yards per hour. In reality the CTL will be the best all around choice for your property. Simply for the versatility. You are correct in thinking that the mini exc. is a better platform for an auger and a hammer. With a CTL you can use forks, brush hog, tillers, trenchers, tree spades, and many others. Avocados are a good crop. Imagine if you had used a tree spade to relocate those mature and well producing trees rather than destroying them. The Marookas I've seen for sale are usually pretty expensive and are primarily used for soft under foot conditions. They are also highly specialized so they are not very versatile. I would be leary of the Cat MTL undercarriage. If you noticed I used the term MTL and not CTL. The Cat 277 is a Multi Terrain Loader. Cat now makes a CTL (Compact Track Loader) as well as the MTL. IME the MTL undercarriage is very fragile when compared to the CTL U/C. The owners manual even says not to sidehill with it or even turn on slopes or transitions. Lastly, I want to warn you about dumping fill on a 7% slope. I don't know exactly how you are doing this but your post sounds as though you are just dumping the fill on the side of the hill. If you are not keying or benching (or both) than you I would expect the dirt to slide down the hill once you get some rain. How much rain may determine how far the dirt will move.
if you have an excavator and you only need to move earth buy and tipping trailer for your tractor. Tracks are expensive to run up and down. An excavator should carry out most tasks. Just a thought.