I have a small area that I want to fill in and put a building on it. The area is about 80 feet wide and 200 feet long and maybe 10 feet deep at the lowest point. This is not a wet land area. How much dirt can you put over an area before you need to run a compactor over it? I was thinking about putting dirt in the area with dump trucks. Then bladeing out the dirt and pulling a compactor over it with a tractor. I would think the top 4 feet would not need to be compacted because a basement would go down about 5 to 6 feet. Does this make sense to you guys or do I need an education? This would be a job for summer, too cold now. Thanks for any suggestions.
You need compaction in all of the fill. Scarify all the original terrain several inches to prevent a shear plane. Build your fill level.
Back filling for a building pad we always did 1 foot lifts and watched the moisture.
Thanks mtbox and stump knocker. How do you do the actual compaction. Do you criss cross or always run in the same direction? Do you run the compactor over the ground until every square inch has compaction prints on it. The machine you could pull behind a tractor, is it called a sheep's foot. Do they all hammer or vibrate when they are pulled over the ground? As you can tell I don't know the correct way to do it but it can't be too difficult if you are told how to do it. Stump knocker, what do you mean by watch the moisture?
Orville, Here in Fl. we only have sand!! WE usually used a loader to push the fill and a loaded bucket to compact. You can't get density with dry sand. What type of material are you going to use for fill? I have no idea what your fill dirt will be like in MN. A cheap way is check density is a pointed steel rod with a handle. Doesn't take long to figure out if your fill is compacted.
You obviously have experience, I don't. There is a high area close to the low area and there is sand there. I thought you had to compact all soils so they would not settle. There is a couple of feet of light clay above the sand.
What are your local codes and ordinances that pertain to building construction? Will your local building department/inspector require compaction testing before you footings/foundation is poured? This is important information that you need to know before starting construction. For a project this size I would highly recommend getting a dirt doc involved, commonly know as a geotechnical engineer. Don't be overwhelmed by that, most dirt docs are a little weird (I guess it comes with the profession :beatsme) but good folks and not that expensive, especially when you compare their fees % wise to the total cost of the project. The dirt doc will get a sample of the fill material you want to use and run a proctor and shear test on the material. The proctor will tell you the optimum moisture content and the particle make-up of your fill material. This is important as it varies with every soil type. They use this information from the soil test to determine when the material is compacted to the required spec's - 95%,98% or whatever your requirements are. The shear test will tell the dirt doc the angle of repose, which is the angle the material can be placed at and remain stable. This is only an issue if you are filling on or creating a steep slope. The dirt doc can also tell you the height each lift needs to go in. From my experience, most of our soils work best in 8-10" lifts, your soils could be totally different. As you place and compact your lifts, your dirt doc will send a tech out to pop a couple of nuclear density tests and tell you whether or not the material has been compacted to spec. They will perform these tests on each lift after you have compacted it. Your local building department/inspector will probably require these tests and reports before allowing the foundation to be place. Once again, check with them first. Compaction - Compaction can be achieved through various methods. What kind of compaction equipment do you have available? For compacting soil a vibratory sheep's foot roller works very good but in reality a dozer, skid steer, backhoe, etc. can attain this, it's just a matter of time and what you have available. Another method we use with our heavy clay soils is a loaded tandem dump. I have compacted many a lifts and achieved specs with a loaded tandem or tri-axle. Alot of times a loaded tandem is spec'd to check sub-grade before base can be laid on streets and roads in my area. It's very important to use fill material free of topsoil, roots, vegetation, large rocks, debris, etc. This will keep the lifts uniform and make a stronger foundation. Good luck with your project!
I did not know that compacting dirt could be that much of a science. Many years ago a dirt guy bragged that they could compact dirt better that the glacier. It does look like something I should not just jump into. thanks
I worked with dirt many years, we had sand that you could NOT use a compactor on, wouldn't pass no matter what we did, finally we just dumped a load of water on it, Inspector tested, it passed.. the vibrating or even the movement of the vibrator destroy the compaction. sometimes just rolling will get you compaction , other times it seems like an eternity to get compaction. Mostly it depends on the soil type. Around here clay is almost never used as a build pad material, it is expansive and will swell and shrink. Most now use what we call LOW VOLUME, which means there is very little clay in the material. More or less it is what they dig off the top of the sand pits here, a sandy dirt. Worked with soil with moisture as high as 42%, a sloppy mess.. but that was the spec. The engineers test the soil for optimum moisture. the design the specs around that, and other stuff.. The absolute worst is the modified proctor. which is a nearly impossible to obtain the compaction. This is seldom used around here
What are the Dirt Docs using in your area to determine optimum moisture and compaction specs?
Can really say other that if we don't get compaction, or are having trouble, they will get another 5 gallon bucket of material to test. Sometimes the tester will have 20 to 30 jars of sample to match the soil to determine which proctor to use at the site. "We'll run another proctor test" I used to do it for awhile, shake it thru sieves and cook the stuff, that was for the quality of the material, I think such as rock and sand. Beat in to a mold, was for asphalt and dirt but that was over 30 years ago. can't even remember what we did then. or if they even do it that way now
Great explanation CM1995 ! Well put. I think the books call for a tandem ( or 10 wheeler dump ) weighing 44,000 lbs or better , when "wheel rolling ". If we wheel roll, i just fill the old Pete. with dirt and go at it . Just remember to keep your lifts as level as you can, it makes life easier.
we use what is called "Proof Rolling" to test the subgrade of a road. we use a loaded 4000 gallon water truck. I think the spec is 1" or less of ruts in the soil. wheel rolling usually won't get the higher percentages of compaction. It all depends on the types of soils that are being compacted. I had them test the 247 cat CTL once to see what it did on compaction ... 85%. Did do some digging in an old part of town. An island that was built with donkeys and carts. Those one billion hoof prints were very hard, almost rock like. Sometimes you could pick out the various loads of dirt that the carts had hauled.
Funny story now, frustrating situation then... We had a greenhorn dirt doc on a job doing a proof roll for a residential street. Standard practice around here is to use the first load of aggregate base to proof roll on the day you will be dumping base on the whole street. (Of course we always make sure the sub-base is good to go before base is scheduled) Back to the story, the first load of base shows up in a tri-axle and the dirt doc won't accept a loaded tri-axle to do the proof roll (we can gross 85K or so in Alabama with a tri) even with the lift axle up because the book called for a loaded tandem... We tried explaining the basic laws of physics to this guy but ended up having to get a tandem in and yes, it messed the day up. I don't know if it's true or not but I heard the term "sheeps foot" compactor originated from when the Romans would corral their sheep on the roads they were building to let their hooves compact the soil. :beatsme
If its mostly sand dont even wste your time with a sheeps foot as i have found they dont work at all, if its sand wheel rolling or a smooth drum roller works best in my experince. Now if its mostly clay thats where a sheeps foot does best, wheel rolling will also get good compaction also. And start your first lift with the best materila you can find, and i would also put the first lift in at around 2ft, if you dont do your first lift right and get compaction you will fight all the next lifts! That first bridging lift is crucial
Why would you go 2 feet on the first lift. I just might try it and drive a loaded truck over it to do the compaction.
I always go 2 feet with my first lift if im running the fill. Them every lift after that i put it down just under 2 feet when working with scrapers, then after they run over it a few times and compact it ill cut 3-5 tenths off. got to think if your putting down a foot of loose material its really only going to be 6-10 inches compacted.
if you have any concern of your building settling because of improper compaction, i'd hire an engineer to come and take a sample of the soil you wish to use as fill. he will be able to tell you what the optimum moisture content of the soil should be, and in what depth of lifts to achieve that density required with the minimal amount of time/effort. putting in 2' and then rolling it, would scare me. i've seen many fill areas that have bad soil bridging problems that fail later when the soil was too dry when compacted...and as soon as moisture migrated into the area, it fails and settles. proper moisture content in the soil you're working with is your friend, it works as a lubricant to allow the soil particles to mesh together tighter, faster.
EPCOT Center WDW. These usually great people to work with. There was a huge restroom that we could not get compaction. Finnally we were pulled of and the footers dug and poured. Stem wall went back filled and the underground plumbling installed. Slab poured. They kept saying see everything is ok!! Walls went up and everything seemed ok. The trusses were put up and everything looked ok. The next morning we came to work the trusses and walls were a pile of rubble.
Wow! That must have been fun! Any penalty ? " I tried to tell'em boss ! " famous last words
I would probably figure out where your top of foundation is relative to existing ground. If you have 8' stem walls on a 12" deep footing than only fills > 9' should be of concern. I'm not saying that I would just bomb the dirt in, just that a concrete slab distributes the weight over a larger area than a footing with less loading. In other words a lower bearing is required for the floor slab than the foundations. But I wouldn't hesitate to call a local engineer, they are cheap and their experience can prove invaluable. A proctor test is only $150.00, field techs 85-100 per hour and the engineer shouldn't be more than $150.00/hr. For what you're describing, you could get sound engineering advice and support throughout the project for probably less than $2,000. On another note, remember, a proctor only tells the maximum unit weight attainable by a material type, not it's bearing capacity. I could get a proctor on topsoil, doesn't mean I would want to build my house on it. Finally, if I were you I would just hire a reputable local contractor. Not that I don't think you can handle the project, but they have the time, experience and insurance required to do the job right. Also with the market the way it is, contractors around here are doing work for just fuel and wages. You probably can't rent the trucks, loader and compactor for what they are willing to run their own for. Best of Luck, Sounds Like a Fun Project.
. Sounds like good advice. Watch and learn or... Learn the hard way.I don't mean that negatively , just experience is a good teacher. Good luck !
listen up here...his experience speaks volumes
I did not think it would be that complicated of a job. This is not a job that I would start right away but it sounds like maybe I should hire out that part.
before fillin? Maybe I missed it did strippin sod &topsoil before fillin get mentioned? Also keyin in each lift into exsistin? Good Luck with your project. Bob aka ZZ
There's a lot of variables to consider, material that came out,material going in,is a structure going to be on it or is it just fill,compaction equipment your using,amount of time between trucks if material not on site,is a soil guy there testing,moisture curve usually + or - 2 % in NC depending on the proctor.As a personal rule of thumb I try not to go over 20" to 24" on first lift and between 14" and 18" a lift after that depending on soil and final compaction.
I didn't see Trm70c's last post but he's dead on with his explanation,kind of what I was trying to say but he made it a little bit clearer than I did.
I do not like burying topsoil so I was planning on removing that if I do the project. I do have a question though. Keying in each lift into existing? This was brought up on another post so I should have said something then. How do you key in the lifts? I would guess if you were going to put in a 12 inch lift you would make a 12 inch vertical cut into the existing hillside, so each lift has a step to rest on. That was a guess, can you tell me the correct way?
When we do any compaction job we always use a soils guy. Just remember when it comes to how much is enough the enginier is the boss. They say only 12" and criss cross your compaction you should. Nothings worse then a unhappy enginier. I've never used just a truck (always a compactor pluse a truck) but I guess it could work. Also keep a good eye on the weather. Nothings worse then starting a pad and getting a inch of rain the next day. When we do a small house pad or small slope extention when we build a key bigger is better. 3 to 4 feet deep and 8 to 10 feet wide. You need the dirt anyway cut it out and throw it to the high side. Also keep an eye out for water. If it looks like your going to make water look at putting in a slope drain. Just some perf-pipe and a foot of gravel.
That is exactly how you key in a fill. When compacting second pass at a 45 degree angle to the first pass is best.
After I made that post last night I got to thinking. I bet a key is like a key way in a shaft. But I did not realize it would need to be 8 feet or so wide and 3 feet deep. The angles of compaction, I always wondered about also. I have another area that I would like to fill in over time. A house will sit there eventually, does that area need as much attention as a site where a building will go on it as soon as the area is filled in. Years ago I saw a builder have a hole dug for a full basement, before the footing guys got there the hole was half full of water. The builder had the hole filled in without compaction and the following year dug a hole half as deep in the same spot for a different style house. The question is if the fill dirt sits long enough does it need the compaction. The hole that was filled in and re-dug a year later was done by a slip shod builder if that means anything.
topsoil I was not meanin for you to bury topsoil, kinda unspoken rule among professional dirt hands that's a big no-no. If you cann't use it on your land you can always sell it. I should've been more spacific in my post. Good Luck, Bob aka ZZ
I guess if you left the fill there for a long time(ten to fifteen years) it would probable pack down on it's own but leaving it only for a year is nowhere near enought time. Add water into the equation and I can garentee the house was built on crap ground. On a side note as you bring your fill up we cut into the virgin ground a few feet. This will add a bunch of small keys that will also help hold the slope.
Thanks to all you guys that shared your knowledge and experience, I may or may not do this project but I did learn a lot. I have learned also from reading posts throughout this forum. I just wish my memory was better.