Fellow in Australia with a 98J Special Applications D5 with built in hydraulic controls. Has a 8J0448 piston motor pump part of Hyd. Control Arrangement 3P8586. Looking for flow and pressure specs on the pump. Seems to be a common pump but I can't find the specs. Thanks
In the breakdown of the 3P-8586 Hyd Control it was replaced by a 1U-4760 Gear Pump in October 1980 which was in turn replaced by 6E-1221 in 1990. 6E-1221 retails at $900. I have found a spec for testing 8J-0448 as a motor, not a pump. Even if it's being used as a pump in your application then testing it as a motor should show whether it's up to par or not. This will be a bench test, has he got the pump off the machine..? PM me with your email address for the details.
Hmmm, 1980 would be well passed date of the 98J series. The guy asking is in the bush and doesn't even have a pressure gauge. How about the pressure rating and flow on the replacement gear pump which I'm assuming would be a match for pressure and maximum flow.
Tried all the alternative replacement numbers but nothing unfortunately. Sorry.
Thanks for trying.
If it's a piston pump or motor, check the case drain line flow under load. It's the leakage going through it. Late Bob
Hi Bob, condition of the pump is kind of secondary here although it does need checking. The primary request is to determine flow capacity and pressure so as to match up the implements he has and wants to use.
Time for a flow meter and pressure gauge?
Yes, that would do it but this is another one of those "Australian outback" operators whose tool kit is probably a crescent wrench with a hammer head welded on the other end and hundreds of miles to civilization. Got to quit responding to these guys. LOL Surely there are some paper specs somewhere.
Five gallon bucket and a wristwatch? LOL
O.M. I laughed a good bit at your comment on the "Australian Outback Combo" Leatherman copy, we have Scrub Puller here that can manage to make near anything do anything, the scary thing is he has the photo's to explain how he managed it, some of his comments just make me giggle all day, sadly some of these Down Under Lads are really up against Mother Nature with the lack of Rainfall, it is something I have No idea about and no experience of, the rain in the U.K. is starting to fire down out of the sky in some order making the thought of a dry spell a wanted moment, if only Rain Clouds had Tow Hooks we would send some Down Under, on the hydraulic setup on the D5 well this is something I have never seen or have any Data on, but I do have a Flow Meter with a pressure control. tctractors
Hi tc, Yes, I'm sure it is no fun being up against the elements there in Australia, something we're starting to learn about here in California. Noticed a footnote under the 3P8586 Hydraulic Control Arrangement referencing Form #GMG02185. Might be some info there. Anybody have access to that form?
Another dead end I'm afraid. "Media Number not found". I tried it with both a zero and a letter O but got the same result. It may be available in paper form somewhere.
I found a spec for 8J0448 in SENR7450, but the pump in 3P8586 appears to be 8J6332. What am I missing here Nige?
It is a bit confusing, seems there are two numbers for the pump and fits several group numbers.
Ah yes, now I see. 8j6332 is the group and there is a type 1 and type 2 with different numbers. Beginners mistake. Doh!
Anyway, here's the test specs for 8J0448; Rotation is clockwise when seen from drive end. Type of pump: gear. For test, use SAE 10W oil at 150° F (65° C). Test at full speed: Output ... 24 U.S. gpm(91 litre/min) at a pressure of ... 100 psi(690 kPa) with pump at ... 2000 rpm with engine at ... 2000 rpm Output ... 23 U.S. gpm(87 litre/min) at a pressure of ... 1000 psi(6900 kPa) with pump at ... 2000 rpm with engine at ... 2000 rpm Test at half speed: Output ... 12 U.S. gpm(45 litre/min) at a pressure of ... 100 psi(690 kPa) with pump at ... 1000 rpm with engine at ... 1000 rpm Output ... 11 U.S. gpm(42 litre/min) at a pressure of ... 1000 psi(6900 kPa) with pump at ... 1000 rpm with engine at ... 1000 rpm (1) Torque for bolts ... 50 ± 5 lb. ft.(70 ± 7 N·m)
Chris, 8J-6332 is the Group, 8J-0448 is the pump. However I think we need to clarify something here via OM and his friend in Oz.......... In the OP we have this ......... Now What CMark has found in SENR7450 is a specification for an 8J-0448 pump, but it's a gear pump not a piston pump. Early versions (up to CHG 06) of the 3P-8586 Hyd. Control Arrangement listed in TMI contain a 9J -0448 Piston pump. 3P-8586 Hyd. Control Arrangement Type 1 listed in SIS contains an 8J-6332 Pump Gp which in turn contains an 8J-6331 Pump. 8J-6331 is clearly indicated as a gear pump. 3P-8586 Hyd. Control Arrangement Type 2 listed in SIS contains an 8J-6332 Pump Gp which in turn contains a 9J-0448 Pump. I'm surmising that the D5 owner in Oz has this arrangement. The issue is that both 8J-0448 and 9J-0448 are genuine numbers - 8J-0448 being a gear pump and 9J-0448 being a piston pump that can also double as a piston motor. OM, can the guy from Oz confirm what type of pump he has on his tractor. Best way would be to take a photo of the pump and post it here. It may be that SIS & TMI contains a misprint and in fact the pump we are dealing with is a gear pump.
But both Type 1 & Type 2 are clearly titled as "Gear Pump Gp" at the head of the Parts List ........ ***..?
Seems odd. Looking at the silhouette shape of the pump in the parts book and a little "google" I came up with this??? Parts book does not give a breakdown of internal parts??? Doesn't fit the usual shape of a gear pump but who knows? http://avspare.com/catalog/cat/ueg0852s/ueg0852s0156/ Flow seems reasonable for ag application but I was expecting higher pressure. 1000 psi does match early implement pressure systems.
Where are you seeing that 9J0448 is a piston pump/motor? I can only see it as a gear type. Edit. Forget that. Found it. Back soon..............
I also see the repair kit listed in the parts diagram as being a 9J448 which seems to lead back to it being a motor pump. Back to the original request pump type really doesn't matter for now. It's the pressure and flow rating that was the concern as he thinks he has a higher pressure system and can't figure out why his small cylinder implements don't perform as he expects. I'm thinking pressure and flow capacity would be the same for either type pump.
I reckon that 8J0448 is a piston pump/motor and 9J0448 is a gear pump and that somewhere back in time there was a typo which mixed them up. I suspect that 8J0448 was never part of 3P8586. Saying that, I think that probably the specs in SENR7450 are correct, but should read 9J448 instead of 8J448.
A lot of supposition that really needs to be confirmed with a photo of what's on the machine ............. From experience I'm pretty sure that Part Numbers & descriptions in SIS are populated from TMI, so if TMI had a misprint (9J for 8J in this case) then SIS would also be wrong. It makes no sense to me that when SIS lists a gear pump as part of the consist of 8J-6332 Type 1 but a piston pump for the same Group Type 2. Interesting that the 9J-0451 listed as a seal kit for the 9J-0448 pump is listed as cancelled and replaced by 4 different Part Numbers of Gear Pump depending on what machine they are to be used (for the D5 in question the replacement pump is a 6E-1221). That to me is a another clue that in fact the original pump on the machine is in fact a gear pump and the correct Part Number for that pump is 8J-0448. Therefore the specs the CM found in SENR7450 are correct.
Also to approach it from another, more subjective angle, The piston pump (I'll not give it a part number) looks from T&A to have a flow of about 35GPM, whereas the gear pump is arond 20GPM. It's a little old D5 implement pump FFS. Why would Caterpillar splash out on an expensive piston pump? Is there some sort of medical condition to explain people who forensically examine Caterpillar part numbers in their spare time?
Well it brightens up an otherwise dull day .....
To muddy up the waters some more. The pump/motor application is for a two valve system supplying a tool bar dozer and one rear implement. A 20 gpm capacity is really anemic to be running two 5x16 cylinders at 1000 psi and 35 to 45 gpm would make a lot more sense. I'll try to get a picture from the owner but can't get a guaranteed response.
Well i'm working on an idea to brighten up an otherwise dull day
A D4D Hydraulic Pump is around the 21 gallons per min, a 951 C track loader is a 19 gallon job, the tool bar cylinders on the D5 are only dinky little things so I would expect the oil flew to be around this area, don't forget the engine speed is 2'000 ish (333C or 3306?) how much oil would you need to work the gizmo? not forgetting flow is speed, the pressure required is something that can be sorted on test loading if the pump is upto the standard needed. tctractors p.s. a pucker Hydraulic System is the answer with its own tank and valves, and scrap the toy town system as its a scarce odd bit of kit.
AT what pressures? Closest match I could find is a 151 Hydraulic Control at 1178 rpm, 1000 psi, 29 gpm and 5 x 31.44 cylinders. D5 Tool bar arrangement. A 153 Tank type Hydraulic Control with regular dozer 4-1/4 bore lift cylinders is 1940 rpm, 1000 psi and 51 gpm Agreed, probably the system he should have for what he's trying to do. edit: On second thought that's going to be to fast considering the leverage of the tool bar cylinder mountings. So 23 gpm @ 1000 psi @ 2000 rpm sounds about right for the tool bar.
O.M. I noticed the tractor was listed as a D5B this as already posted on the other site was way off, this tractor (D5) would be running a 333C series engine, those tool bars are only for very light blade work as we do have the odd 1 or 2 in the U.K (I don't think there is 3 though) they are only any good for top shaping or road maintaining, I see this tractor is getting a big rake stuffed onto the blade, if those rams stick that hammer I would be shocked, I would also be shocked if the blade would lift with a wide rake hanging off it, that little dozer is a Farm Chariot for cultivation type work and things hooked up to the draw bar and needs using within its scope, its running dry clutch and brake with those 720 bands and soft F/Drives, it needs swapping in for a D6C/D. tctractors
Yes, I think we covered all that. Based on my 98J1591-up parts book it is a 3306 with oil clutch and close ratio gears. Agree, he's trying to make it something it ain't. I think it's starting to sink in but there's no stopping these Aussies even though he seems to have run off with his tail between his legs. LOL
Owner says he will get pictures of pump this weekend.
O.M. I should have used the word Steering in front of clutch, I don't think I have seen a D5 in the U.K. with the 3306 engine fitted, I have been working on a D5 63J series (P/Shift France) for 3 days this week as there is a few about locally, the Farmers love them as the weight is low and they pop through our Field Gates, sadly the Farmers all think its a D9 the amount of Hammer they stuff into them. tctractors
My stuff shows the 98J as starting out with the D333c to s/n 1133 then the 3306@ 1134. Sleeve metering at 1459. Assorted literature can't seem to agree on start/end & production with 1968 or 9 beginning and 1977 end with somewhere between 2151 and 2353+ units. The one under discussion is 98J2106 (1976?). Yes the D5 is a popular ag machine, really a re-engined old D6.
Interesting on the 63Jxxxx. Runs the same production years as the 98J but all D333c
More delay...owner went after the wrong pump.
Received picture. Looks more like a gear pump. Different from what I show in the 98J1591-up parts book. This is on a 98J2106.
You are correct, that is a gear pump. Here's the page from the Parts Manual for 98J02106. The Part Number is 9J-0448 and the current replacement is a 6E-1221. Cmark posted the specs of the gear pump earlier in the thread.
The parts book picture sure doesn't look like the picture of the installation???
Generic illustrations sometimes give that impression. Here is a view of the 1U-4760 & 6E-1221 replacements for 9J-0448 which actually looks more like the photo.
That looks more like a vane pump, also one of the options used on the 98J. Part #7J0586. New eyes spotted the hack job notch to the upper frame rail to make this pump fit. Owner says it has a number 59711 on the pump which seems to lead nowhere. Even if we can track the original pump looks like it will require a flow meter and pressure gauge to sort out what this one is.
Here is what the 9J0586 looks like, and the form of the drawing leads me to believe it's a faithful reproduction of what the pump actually looks like in the flesh, so to speak. IMHO the pump in the photo from Oz looks more like the pump in my post #41 rather than the illustration below. Edit: Take a look at the 3P-1077 Pump & Lines Gp for machine S/N 98J2016. The orientation of the pump lines and their connections lead me to believe the pump in the photo in post #38 could well be a genuine Cat pump despite the chunk missing from the machine frame.
Why are we looking at a 9J0586 pump? Did you mean 7J0586? Your post #43 pump is looking more like the original 9J0448 with four bolt end cover. Also needs to accommodate a gear drive. I don't think Cat would be hacking up a frame rail to accommodate a pump. Yes, I see the line configuration and it seems to match the Oz picture. Owner has given me some new info which appears to be an update to the 98J1591-up parts book. He is referencing a 2P1785 gear pump group. Says the parts break down does show the gears. I have asked for the actual pump part number from the group. 2P1785 comes up as an engine oil pump group??? We'll see what the owner comes up with for a pump number.
Yep - brain fart ...... I respectfully disagree. I think the pump in the photo looks more like what's shown in my post #41, especially when you consider the studs in the body and the nuts that are visible in the photo on the timing gear case side of the pump. It's not common, but for a limited-production Special Applications tractor (which this one is) it wouldn't surprise me. A red herring. 2P-1785 is an engine oil pump for the 3306 engine, part of 2P-1784 Oil Pump Gp ..........
That parts picture is a Vickers Vane pump?
From the info that edb from acmoc.org provided about Caterpillar sourcing pumps from Tyrone Pumps, this one sure is similar: http://www.hydraulic-pump-valve.com/hydraulic-TYRONE-PM23-Gear-Pump.html
Could very well be an aftermarket pump but the casting web structure of the installed pump looks nothing like that Tyrone pump.
That was Cat's go-to pump when they were using vane pumps. Thank God they gave up on the idea on track-type tractors although in fairness it did take them about 40 years to figure it out........
Cat used the vane pumps for a long time due to their no load start up at low rpm and cold oil.
The major disadvantage with vane pumps is that they do not perform well in a system that has particulate contamination present. In effect that's pretty much every track-type tractor ever built because with up to 8 cylinders for blade & ripper operation there is always one that will be pulling in dirt.